Plane missing in north Queensland on way to Horn Island [Archive]

1a sound asleep

24th Feb 2011, 11:31

ABC

Authorities have suspended a search for a pilot and plane missing plane in far north Queensland.

The plane disappeared on a trip from Cairns to Horn Island in the Torres Strait around 8.00am (AEST) on Thursday.

Tracy Jiggins from the Australian Maritime Safety Authority says 13 aircraft have been searching the all day without success.

She says a fresh search will resume in the morning.

"There has been no distress call or mayday from the aircraft and no beacon activation," she said.

"We searched all of the Islands around the area where he may landed - all with nil result as well."

Queensland Police spokeswoman Chelsea Rogers says "it's unknown how many people were onboard, but it's believed it may just be the pilot".

Ex FSO GRIFFO

24th Feb 2011, 11:50

Re the quote....
"Its unknown how many people were on board,........"

Doesn't anyone use a 'flight note' anymore..??

Seeing as how we don't have a dedicated 'Flight Following Service' anymore, at least the P.O.B. / route / endurance, plus ELT's etc details is kept 'in the office' at point of departure..??

Very sad for all concerned, including those who have to go to search for 'unknown' numbers of potential survivors.....

Sad indeed - but the mind 'boggles'....:(:(

puff

24th Feb 2011, 13:00

Fair call Griffo ! - If this was charter operation could you have an Ops Manual that allows you to depart on a fairly long flight with no flight plan, or flight note left, and for the operator to not know at least POB ?

Basically as such you have no idea who it is, how many people, and a real idea of where they even 'could' or might be. Really feel for the guys in Canberra at AMSA trying to co-ordinate a rescue with no information to go on when it's peoples lives and loved ones you are talking about !

No info you would assume it was VFR as well ?

Ex FSO GRIFFO

24th Feb 2011, 13:41

NOSAR.......No Details......No SENSE.....

It used to be called.:ugh::ugh:

Something about 'self responsibility'.....used to be called.....common 'dog'.....

and the 'finer' points were....'Airmanship'.!!!

Sadly....doesn't seem to exist anymore, to the detriment of......

:ugh:

Wildpilot

24th Feb 2011, 16:48

Well I managed to find the pilots name after many phone calls, shame no one PM'd me as requested.

Please stop the disrespectful comments about lack of flight plan etc, even if you are right it is in very poor taste.

donpizmeov

24th Feb 2011, 20:17

Think Dick changed that airspace didn't he? Fond memories of Weipa flight service. Ahhh those were the days.
Any news of the crew?

Flying Bear

24th Feb 2011, 21:01

C'mon Griffo,

The only thing that your mind should boggle at it is what appears to me to again be some media misrepresentation...

In other words, without going into it too far, I would be stunned if the flight was other than an IFR flight (given the weather conditions in Cairns when the aircraft departed yesterday...) and it was conducted by the usual operator of the aircraft (mentioned above), therefore...

POB could simply have been established by a telephone call to the aircraft operator, or even better - given that you are required to state POB on taxi at a controlled aerodrome for CHTR flights, maybe our dilemma could have been solved with a phone call to Cairns ATC??

To be honest, I reckon the people that matter at AMSA / AusSAR etc would be in the know as to the POB.

You are barking up the wrong tree with the no SAR / no details scenario in this case - although I emphatically agree it is a weak course of action for pilots to take.

From what I see out my window this morning, a search is going to be difficult today. Hoping for the best, but sadly preparing for the worst.

Horatio Leafblower

24th Feb 2011, 21:13

What was the turbulence like in the area yesterday?

Can't help wondering if we'll see another Aerocommander with the wings snapped off outboard of the engines, parked inverted in the scrub with the gear extended :sad:

av8trflying

24th Feb 2011, 21:26

I know a little about what happened.

It was 1 POB who was doing a cray run for amity. Bizzy it wasnt East Air.

I heard that his plane was given as traffic to an aircraft taking off from Horn so I would say he was IFR. Also heard that he was holding to wait for a passing shower.

That is all I know.

aussietomcat

24th Feb 2011, 22:13

when you guys hear that POB is not advised, in this cases is because they are professionals and they are not releasing information.
I knew the guy, we worked together, please, some of you is saying non sense,
just have respect for a guy that more likely lost is life and think about if was one of your friends or relatives.
I appreciate the good feeling that many have showed on their posts.
Please guys don't start a polemic of who's fault is this, is too early and the pain is too fresh.

Waghi Warrior

24th Feb 2011, 22:31

Maybe it's about time some operators looked at investing in the satellite tracking software that's on the market these days. It's relatively in expensive and given that it can give up to date position information on any computer/s in the world.
I've seen it in action in very remote areas, and if anything it gives the operator an up to date sitrep of the aircraft's location and tracking information.

Sad thing is that this isn't the first Commander that has crashed in the Horn Island area.

InTheSticks90

24th Feb 2011, 22:34

My heart goes out to his friends and family. Fingers crossed.

engee

24th Feb 2011, 23:06

Isn't it a bit premature to assume that he hasn't made it? They haven't found any wreckage or cargo as yet.

Unusual-Attitude

24th Feb 2011, 23:28

He was being tracked.

morning_glory

25th Feb 2011, 01:49

Well said avtur and aussietomcat

Griffo are you seriously going to believe anything that comes from the media at this early stage. Am surprised by how foolish your posts are. From the beginning the people that needed to know, knew exactly how many pob they were looking for. Amity is a small company, I can guarantee you that every aircraft movement is closely monitored and tracked.

Hoping to have an ale with the pilot at the end of all this but as time ticks on the reality of this happeneing is not looking all that good. Hang in there mate.

onetrack

25th Feb 2011, 02:58

Over 48 hrs gone since his disappearance... he disappears right after a radio call, 15 mins prior to landing at Horn Island... no mayday... no wreckage, apart from a liferaft reported as being sighted... 13 aircraft looking for him...?
This sounds very much like a catastrophic failure, and a dive, relatively intact, in the sea. I don't understand how the wreckage hasn't been found by now... unless he was hopelessly off course... ? :suspect:

engee

25th Feb 2011, 03:08

24hrs - it was yesterday morning

morning_glory

25th Feb 2011, 03:44

Nice speculation onetrack. If you cant even get the facts straight why bother even speculating on the cause of the accident.

onetrack

25th Feb 2011, 06:17

Sorry, I knew the time when he went missing, I meant to type 24 hrs, but the old sleep-deprived brain came out with 48.
What is it about aerocommanders, that there's a surprising number that have lost wings outboard of the engine nacelles, or just vanished into the sea/jungle, with consequent inability to determine the reason for the loss?
Do they catch out young pilots with pitch trim malfunctions when the auto-pilot is engaged? Or are the wing spars still just plain susceptible to failure?

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2004/AAIR/pdf/aair200400610_001.pdf

http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/papers/aerocommander.pdf

megle2

25th Feb 2011, 08:00

Onetrack - I am sure there are a few of us wondering if this is yet another break up.

Jabawocky

25th Feb 2011, 08:03

I have been wondering if its another runaway trim like the Tasair a few years ago. TOD and push of the trim and :eek:.

Of course some folk here will just say stop speculating......but hey, tell me you have not wondered the same thing already.

Ex FSO GRIFFO

25th Feb 2011, 08:11

Thankyou Mr Avtur, New info is always welcome.

One can only comment on the info that is avbl.

The original info avbl AT THE TIME was that the POB was 'unknown'....

Your post is appreciated.

Mr 'MG' , thankyou for your comment.

I can assure you that after 26 yrs experience in related matters, I am not suprised at anything anymore.....and, IF as reported, the facts were AS reported, the I do not resile from my comment.

A VERY WISE old SAR man once told me that 'they are all very nice fellows and excellent pilots - until we have to start looking for them - and we discover that usually, they are 'human' after all, and some horrible mistakes are made, usually under pressure.....

As I stated earlier, very sad.

Flying Binghi

25th Feb 2011, 08:16

Of course some folk here will just say stop speculating......but hey, tell me you have not wondered the same thing already

Jabawocky, yer should try chewing gum to relieve the need to speculate - just don't do any walking at the same time..:E

................:p

.

steelcraft

25th Feb 2011, 11:06

Waghi Warrior

25th Feb 2011, 16:52

Re my last comments about Aero Commanders, I don't believe there is anything inherently wrong with the machines if they have been maintained correctly. All the accidents that I can recall that have occured with them have been due to pilot error, which comes back to pilot training and experience.

Let's just hope that we all can learn something from this incident, there is still hope one would like to think.

Was the aircraft involved ever one of GAMs in particular VH-YJP in a previous life ?

equal

25th Feb 2011, 20:11

not sure on the history of WZU i'm pretty sure it's an ex aero tropics shrike.

the rego YJP is now for a 690A, can't seem to find any more info further back

...edit

found this link in a casa change of mark form;

"WZU","AEROCMDR","500-S","3060","1/12/2001","YJP","LIP-AIR PTY. LIMITED T/A AERO-TROPICS","PO BOX 147N","","CAIRNS NORTH","QLD","4870","","","","","","","",""

original file,

www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/asp/casadata/register/data/updates/Cmark.csv

aussietomcat

25th Feb 2011, 22:03

is anything particular about that plane ?

1a sound asleep

26th Feb 2011, 00:20

Investigation: AO-2011-033 - Missing aircraft - Aero Commander 500S, VH-WZU, near Horn Island, Queensland, 24 February 2011 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2011/aair/ao-2011-033.aspx)

After evaluating preliminary information, the ATSB will send two investigators from Brisbane to Cairns to collect further information.

Cape York air crash mystery: 15 missing minutes- Local Cairns News | cairns.com.au (http://www.cairns.com.au/article/2011/02/26/151571_local-news.html)

Extract

"The experienced pilot was believed to have been flying on a regular "cray run" to pick up and deliver a cargo of fresh crayfish for export to Asia.

He was flying an Aero Commander twin-engine light plane registered to Flightech Pty Ltd, a Cairns company run by members of the Lippmann family who previously owned the now defunct Aero-Tropics Air Services, the company at the centre of the Lockhart River disaster that killed 15 in 2005.

Ten rescue helicopters and eight fixed-wing aircraft scoured sites between Cape York and Moa Island from 5am yesterday, with particular focus around the Horn Island area.Extra teams of emergency service volunteers and police boats also joined the search by combing through thick rainforest and mangroves."

Summary - We hope for a miracle

carro

26th Feb 2011, 01:41

I do not know whether the pilot was IFR or VFR, however in the past, the cray runs have been mainly VFR. Which brings the question of VFR into IMC or pushing a bad situation to stay visual.

I believe airservices need to remove the charge for IFR plans. There are so many operators that push their pilots to fly VFR when the wx is sh** to save $$$ (one big operator on Horn springs to mind)... In the past, there have been so many near midairs in the area with VFR pilots in cloud not being passed on as traffic.

As for the possibility of the wings clapping - these are old machines, and who knows what kind of stress they have endured over their lifetimes with many pilots replicating Bob Hoover manouvres. An old fatigued wing spar may not survive the inside of a thunderstorm.

Anyway my thoughts go out to the guys on Horn and those that knew the pilot. Good luck with the search.

engee

26th Feb 2011, 02:02

YJP was owned by GAM in the late 90s, leased to Falcon who later became Northern Air at Horn Island. Aero-Tropics took on the lease, then puchased from GAM and changed the rego to WJU in 1999. For about 2 years around 05-07 it sat in the 'graveyard' at Cairns GA airport being used for parts.

engee

26th Feb 2011, 02:06

'run by members of the Lippmann family who previously owned the now defunct Aero-Tropics Air Services, the company at the centre of the Lockhart River disaster that killed 15 in 2005.'

Typical Cairns Post shonky reporting. As is public knowledge, Aero-Tropics wet leased the Metro aircraft with pilots from Transair. They had no say in pilots or operation of said aircraft.

Frank Arouet

26th Feb 2011, 02:14

Hold your tongue Frank.:oh:

1a sound asleep

26th Feb 2011, 02:18

could speculate on a number of very possible factors leading to this accident.....HOWEVER out of respect for those that may have lost a family member and/or a friend how about we just wait a bit?

MyNameIsIs

26th Feb 2011, 02:21

carro, most "VFR into IMC" accidents are by the guys that are not IFR trained.
However you do highlight other issues with regard to VFR in IMC- a Bongo and Van nearly collided mid-air in the Straits last year and the above was a probable factor.
But what you have missed in your post, I think, is that a lot of the VFR in IMC is by instrument rated guys- and as you correctly say pushed by the company for several reasons. They are quite capable of flying in the conditions and not likely to prang like a day-vfr pilot would; but there are other issues in doing such.

I can tell you that the guy flying the Shrike is an experienced IFR driver.

Talk of the search being called off/scaled back today. Bugger.

Thanks for the phone calls fellas, not good hearing that it's one of our mates, keep hoping for the best.

The Green Goblin

26th Feb 2011, 03:43

Sadly in these areas, no wreckage is usually found. Look at the poor MAF Pilot a couple of years ago in the gulf. If it went in the ocean, the tidal movement keeps it's secrets.

Fingers crossed for the fella, his family and mates.

In this game sooner or later you'll lose people that you know.

Edition12

26th Feb 2011, 04:01

Nose wheel first

26th Feb 2011, 05:09

And the worst thing about that little episode Edition12, is that CASA did nothing about it. Infact, it seems that there is a willful ignorance on the part of CASA regarding all the VFR aircraft operating in IMC up there.

It won't be until there is a mid-air up there between VFR and IFR that something will be done about bringing the offenders to account and by then it will be too late to save lives! Watch CASA duck for cover then amidst all the finger pointing!

Anyway... I digress. Back to the thread.

Waghi Warrior

26th Feb 2011, 05:25

I recall YJP being one of the best maintained and presented Commanders up north when Notty owned it. As for pilots trying to do Bob Hoover acts in them, get real ! It may have happened however I really think that's a generalization. I have no idea why Lipair has been dragged into this, apart from the aircraft being previously operated by them.

Reduced vis in rain and drizzle is a big killer, vis might be a few miles out the side window but can reduce to nothing when looking out the front. Not that I'm suggesting that this happened, however it has caught me out more than once I can tell you.

I totally agree that Airservices are doing nothing for safety in respect to charging to file an IFR flight plan, this issue really needs to be addressed in a constructive manner, by all interested parties within the industry.

Jabawocky

26th Feb 2011, 06:28

It's by good fortune there's never been a midair up there, I think. I heard the Caravan driver last year on the radio immediately after the near miss - he even sounded like he fouled his pants - can't blame him

It really annoys me you guys see this happen and CASA does nothing, whats more is what are you guys up there doing to stamp it out?

I totally agree that Airservices are doing nothing for safety in respect to charging to file an IFR flight plan, this issue really needs to be addressed in a constructive manner, by all interested parties within the industry.

Sure I would like to have no airways charges but unfortunately they are here to stay for IFR I dare say. Again what bothers me about this comment is that folks in GA think this is a significant problem. If your business is that marginal that ASA IFR charges are the game breaker well its time to get out of the game.

Edition12

26th Feb 2011, 06:40

I share your annoyance, Jabawocky - but this one was reported and investigated; it just so happened to play out while I was listening to the Torres CTAF.

scarediecat

26th Feb 2011, 07:25

Condolonces to all friends and family. I really do hope they find the (supposed crashed ) location of the aircraft.

Re my last comments about Aero Commanders, I don't believe there is anything inherently wrong with the machines if they have been maintained correctly. All the accidents that I can recall that have occured with them have been due to pilot error, which comes back to pilot training and experience.

I disagree strongly with this opinion. We shouldnt speculate as to what has occured, but it is Pprune. Can anyone answer a few questions for me regarding Aerocommanders..

What is the MTOW of the AC50 in Australia?
What is the MTOW of the AC50 in the USA?
Why is there a difference?
If any one has ever bothered to grab a ladder and had a look on top of the wing, what will you invariably see?
Why do alot of AC50 require these straps?
What design flaw does the AC50 posses? (hint COP/COG)
What effect does these straps have long term?

The Aerocommander has proven to be a solid and reliable workhorse all over the world. I have a few hours in them myself. I just have a gut feel that no matter how well they are maintained they are getting long in the tooth. Ordinarily it isnt a problem but I feel for the AC50 it might. Last question...how many mid air break ups have there been with AC50's?

Please someone set me straight. :(

Torres

26th Feb 2011, 07:44

One wonders at possible structural integrity degeneration in Australian registered Shrikes, due to the Australian only VFR and IFR maximum gross weights, which are 10% higher than the original FAA certified maximum gross weight? The FAA and manufacturer did not support the Australian increase in MTOW and the manufacturer is on record opposing any change in aircraft weights.

The increased Australian MTOW was obtained by H C Sleigh Aviation, many years ago, on new airframes, for coastal surveillance purposes.

Beginning in June 1991, senior engineers met with FAA officials to discuss concerns over the Aero Commander's main wing spar, which was believed to be susceptible to stress fatigue and subsequent cracking, and was believed to have resulted in a number of fatal crashes. From approximately 1961–1993, 24 aircraft crashed when spar failures caused the loss of the wing in flight. 35 more spars were found cracked during inspections.

And that was at US FAA certified MTOW - not Australian weights.

One must seriously wonder how, in the event of an engine failure, one 260 HP Lycoming is supposed to keep a 3,300 kg aircraft, airborne.

IT is totally ludicrous to suggest the AsA IFR flight plan charge is detrimental to safety! :=

BP_

26th Feb 2011, 08:31

Firstly my heart felt thoughts go out the the friends and family of the pilot missing.

Sadly, having conducted several searches for missing persons and prawn trawlers throughout the straits, I can attest to the difficulty in finding clues as to what has happened. When bad weather and local currents are added to the mix the job becomes even more testing, to the point of putting those involved in searching in harms way.

Having flown AC500's for about 2000hrs I can also confirm it would take a mighty powerful thunderstorm to break one and I'm sure the pilot, who I know, wouldn't have put themselves in such a position. They will fly on one engine quite well and seeing as the flight was going up to Horn the aircraft would most likely have been empty and not full of fuel so the increased MTOW shouldn't have been a factor.

Knowing the pilot involved I agree with MyNameIsIs and don't think pushing a bad situation was high on the list of causes.

As for dodgy VFR, it is rife in the straits and I am also familiar with the Van incident. For christ sake people :ugh: there are rules that are designed to reduce the risk of us killing ourselves and each other, not to mention the poor passengers who are non the wiser. If you cant go cos the aircraft isn't up to spec, dont go! if you need to, consider going IFR, if your still not happy, dont go! up there you will only have to wait 10 minutes for it to clear.

Anyways thats a whole other topic.

Wish I could help in the search

bythenumbers

26th Feb 2011, 11:15

Unfortunately BP you may have hit the nail on the head.

If in fact if the aircraft was empty it may have greatly exceeded its ultimate load factor limit at a usually acceptable speed for turbulence. The same thing came to light after the clonbinane crash in which I seem to recall interviews with other company pilots revealed a large gap in understanding of aerodynamics pertaining to g loading.

Thoughts and prayers go to the family and friends.

equal

26th Feb 2011, 11:16

Josh Cox

26th Feb 2011, 19:43

There are aerocommanders in Australia with well over 30,000 hours on the airframe, most of which are operated at low level and at the increased VFR weights, with no issues.

For those of you thinking this is an inflight break up, where is the wreckage, usually strewn over several kms ?.

From personal experience, the AC50 is a very very well designed aeroplane, when operated normally, is well within its destructive limits.

Just because an aeroplane does not have wing struts, does not automatically make it poorly designed or fragile, how many big aeroplane have wing struts ?.

With most accidents, the cause is a lot simpler than a poor designed aeroplane and/or multiple engineers missing a possible airframe defect...........the most common cause is the flight crew ( historically speaking, most accidents are caused by the pilots, as there is no evidence either way it can not be discounted ).

Torres

26th Feb 2011, 20:34

You're jumping to conclusions. :=

I will not speculate on the current missing aircraft, preferring to wait for competent comment from the ATSB.

If, for US FAA registered aircraft....

From approximately 1961–1993, 24 aircraft crashed when spar failures caused the loss of the wing in flight. 35 more spars were found cracked during inspections.

Is the risk of catastrophic failure in Shrike aircraft further aggravated by the higher operating weights in Australia, those weights not being supported by the FAA and aircraft manufacturer?

Common sense indicates this may be the case, especially with ageing, high time, high cycle aircraft.

Modern forensic aircraft accident investigation has moved beyond the traditional "pilot error" cause and seeks to establish critical, contributory factors.

For those of you thinking this is an inflight break up, where is the wreckage, usually strewn over several kms ?.

That may be the case with high capacity pressurised aircraft but is generally not the case with non pressurised light aircraft.

onetrack

26th Feb 2011, 22:54

The ATSB report now states that the aircraft reported he was holding off Horn Island, due to WX. This is the most accurate info to date, and obviously the major reason for the difficulty in establishing a precise location of wreckage.

An inflight breakup (or even a CFIT) doesn't necessarliy involve wreckage strewn over a wide area, as evidenced by the number of aircraft that have disappeared with suspected catastrophic failure, that have never been found.

A disappearance over water makes the wreckage-finding task just that little bit more difficult. Surely, some TS Islanders out fishing, must have seen/heard something.
Some on-the-ground questioning of the locals must have to be an important part of the current search.

Investigation: AO-2011-033 - Missing aircraft - Aero Commander 500S, VH-WZU, near Horn Island, Queensland, 24 February 2011 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2011/aair/ao-2011-033.aspx)

Jabawocky

27th Feb 2011, 00:15

Just to add to Torres's remarks, once the paperwork shows an increased MTOW, you would also have to believe that when planning for that weight, the aircraft would either be deliberately or inadvertantly be loaded even high, "just because we know it can". End result is quite possibly the AC50s have often been flown at (FAA MTOW + X) x 1.Y

Over many many hours that could be bad. :uhoh:

Josh Cox

27th Feb 2011, 00:30

This increased weight is for VFR operations, based on the aircrafts OEI climb ability.

The two MTOW's, VFR and IFR have been deemed well within the physical limtation of the airframe, any speculation beyond that is blatant stupidity.

If you look into why the aircraft can be operated differently to the USA, is because our certification legislation is different, I am not going to spend forty minutes typing out why, do some research and you'll find its all above board, tried, tested and certified.

Waghi Warrior

27th Feb 2011, 03:18

Good to see some varied opinions on my last however I agree with Josh, also as I mentioned in my last, if the aircraft is maintained correctly there shouldn't be any major problems !!!! However I don't dismiss that some of these aircraft (And I'm not only specifically talking about Commanders) are well and truly operating beyond their used by dates. It's amazing what a good coat of paint can cover up !

In regard to the nav charges, this has been an issue for years and it is a safety issue, I don't care what anyone thinks. Pilots flying around VFR in IFR conditions isn't safe, regardless if the pilot and the aircraft are rated or not. Whilst I'm sure the nav charges will never be dropped, nor should they be, I still feel that the industry as a whole should be addressing the problem in a constructive manner. As for the Torres Straight area and CTAF, this has been an on going issue for years and is a unique place in Australia given the amount of traffic that operate in the area, not to mention it's geographical location.

This incident/accident has really opened up a can of worms, and it's good to see everyones varied views/opinions.

Back to the original topic, has there been any positive progress on the search.

aussietomcat

27th Feb 2011, 03:53

no news from the search.

you are all mentioning things that make sense, but the truth is that GA
evolves around old planes, with equipment on board that is not adequate for the job (still legal with just 2 adf's on board and just a 155 gps and no radar) to fly in the wet season at the top end at night, most of the time underpaid, and so on .
the truth is that is up to everyone to say NO instead of barking here where no one can hear you.
If we are not happy, simply we have to say no, and no one operator can operate without pilots.
pure utopia, because there will be always who says yes.

Josh Cox

27th Feb 2011, 04:35

Sure the Torres is an issue and IMHO an accident waiting to happen with regards to a mid air collision, this is not new.

There has been suggestions in the past on ways to alleviate the high risk of a mid air collision.

In 2003/4 I sent a letter to the TLFO CS, from the position of Chief Pilot of an organisation, that highlighted my concerns of this imminent risk, and suggested a simple solution ( never got a response.... ):

Arrival and departure routes for VFR flights into and out of HID, one to the NW of HID and one to the NE.

Funnelling is a simple concept, inbound aircraft would be laterally distant from the outbound aircraft.

Aircraft travelling in the same direction via their appropriate route would have a reasonably low closure rate on each other, as all BN2's travel at the speed of stink.

I'm certain there are other and better suggestions on moderating this risk, building a control tower and making Class C is IMHO probably overkill.

Flying Binghi

27th Feb 2011, 04:39

However I don't dismiss that some of these aircraft (And I'm not only specifically talking about Commanders) are well and truly operating beyond their used by dates. It's amazing what a good coat of paint can cover up !

Hmmm, if a VH aircraft has a valid maintenance release the machine is then safe for flight. Waghi Warrior are you saying that the aircraft up north are not properly maintained ?

.

Jabawocky

27th Feb 2011, 06:48

Hmmm, if a VH aircraft has a valid maintenance release the machine is then safe for flight.

That there is an assumption not a fact. :hmm:

cficare

27th Feb 2011, 07:50

are we talking of a vfr/ifr collision??...if so wheres the other a/c....get real guys.

Josh Cox

27th Feb 2011, 08:21

cficare,

are we talking of a vfr/ifr collision??...if so wheres the other a/c....get real guys.

That would have to be the worst post I have seen on pprune, infact, I am having trouble working out what exactly you are trying to say ?.

If you are trying to suggest that an IFR and VFR aircraft colliding is pure fiction, I would have to ask, have you ever flown in highish density traffic, say the Torres in daylight hours ?, particulary during the wet season ?.

onetrack

27th Feb 2011, 08:22

cficare - I think you've got your wires crossed. Go back and read the entire thread. No-one has suggested a mid-air, in this A/C disappearance, and there's only one A/C reported missing - VH-WZU.

All that was discussed, in some thread drift, was the potential for a mid-air between VFR and IFR aircraft in the area, due to some noted laxity in the region as regards regulations... plus a near-mid-air, that did actually happen.

The fact that reports now state there were storms in the area of Horn Island at the time of VH-WZU's disappearance, and that it was reported that he was holding for WX to clear, leads one to wonder if this disappearance isn't a very similar event to VH-YJB. However, the timing of the disappearance eliminates diurnal heating, and the resultant, normally severe turbulence.

YJB was apparently lost due to mountain wave turbulence and possible pilot error. However, the ATSB notes on operating in severe turbulence at speed in the 500S, lend weight to storm turbulence being a highly probable factor in the disappearance of WZU.

Investigation: AO-2007-029 - In-flight break-up - Clonbinane, Vic; 31 July 2007, VH-YJB, Rockwell, Commander 500S (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2007/aair/ao-2007-029.aspx)

I find it interesting, that a large proportion of the Aero Commanders where wing spar failure has been the major reason for the loss, the wing/s seem to have buckled downwards under negative G forces, and rarely upwards.
Is it possible that the Shrike Commander wing spar is weaker, in resistance to -G forces, as compared to +G forces? I would have thought that any wing would have an even resistance to buckling against both forces.

Josh Cox

27th Feb 2011, 08:36

Is it possible that the Shrike Commander wing spar is weaker, in resistance to -G forces, as compared to +G forces? I would have thought that any wing would have an even resistance to buckling against both forces.

To the best of my recollection, every non aerobatic aeroplane I've flown is exactly that, higher positive G rating than negative G rating.

The Green Goblin

27th Feb 2011, 09:44

I find it interesting, that a large proportion of the Aero Commanders where wing spar failure has been the major reason for the loss, the wing/s seem to have buckled downwards under negative G forces.

I've read in the past that the wings will collapse downwards under positive G forces, contrary to what we think would happen.

I'd love to see some POF explaining it!

onetrack

27th Feb 2011, 10:18

Josh - O.K. - I see where, "US CAR3 standards required the aircraft design to sustain ultimate flight loads of +6.6 g and -2.7 g."

Part 1.3.3 of the report into the loss of YJB makes for interesting reading... particularly the section where the US authorities replaced the CAR23 standard with an amended FAR 23, and "published maneuvering speed", became the "design maneuvering speed".

Also, this part .. "There was no published maximum turbulence penetration speed for the aircraft, nor was one required for certification to CAR 3 or FAR 23 standards. Instead, the manoeuvring speed was used as a guide to the maximum speed that the aircraft could be safely flown in turbulent conditions. Flight in turbulent air at speeds above the manoeuvring speed could result in flight loads exceeding the aircraft’s design limit loads, even in circumstances that involved less than maximum control deflection."

I also note the mentioned fact in the report, that an empty A/C is more susceptible to high G-loads in turbulence, than a fully-loaded A/C, due to the empty A/C's inherent ability, to change direction/speed, more rapidly.

Mainframe

27th Feb 2011, 10:49

GG,

Wing failures in AC50's and Cessna 210's are usually downwards with slap marks on the fuselage.

Why is this so?

The wings are designed with washout, and this results in a slightly neutral to slightly negative AoA at the wing tips.

This negative incidence is easily seen on a C210 in normal cruise.

As Vne is approached or exceeded the wingtip download increases, and especially with aileron input adding to the bending loads.

"Wings clapping", as often expressed in these forums, is an urban myth and a misnomer,

they don't fail upwards, they fail downwards, hence the need to be vigilant with Manoeuvering Speed / Turbulence penetration speed.

Otherwise the wings may fail and "slap" the fuselage.

Back to a possible cause of the accident,

a more likely scenario from holding in bad weather is an inadvertent entry to a spiral dive (graveyard spiral).

Presented with a rapidly increasing airspeed and decreasing altitude, the instinctive response, unless trained or made aware,

is to apply back stick to try to simulataneously prevent altitude loss and airspeed build up.

This will tighten the spiral and increase airspeed and vertical speed
UNLESS the aircraft is rolled wings level and skid ball centred
PRIOR to slowly applying back stick.

Structural failure is a possibility in an inappropriate spiral recovery.

In 2001, a C206 was lost while holding between Badu and Horn Island, the wreckage was subsequently recovered.

In 1999, a C206 was lost in the lower Gulf near Sweers Island after possibly encountering IMC.
The wreckage was eventually recovered 2 years later.

1a sound asleep

27th Feb 2011, 11:03

Anybody have any idea what altitude he was holding at??

MyNameIsIs

27th Feb 2011, 11:55

Mainframe, below is a video of the 'urban myth' of clapping wings.

YouTube - C130 Crash (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bDNCac2N1o)

Flying Binghi

27th Feb 2011, 12:55

Hmmm, if a VH aircraft has a valid maintenance release the machine is then safe for flight

That there is an assumption not a fact

Jabawocky, re the context of the post i were referring to i believes it is a fair "assumption"..:hmm:

Post maintenance it is fer the pilot/capitano to ultimately decide if the aircraft is good to go.

.

Mainframe

27th Feb 2011, 18:32

mynameisis

structual failure due to fatigue.

Civil aircraft such as the C210 and the AC50 have washout designed to delay stalling at the tips.

ATSB and NTSB have plenty of instances of slapping, hardly any clapping.

ForkTailedDrKiller

27th Feb 2011, 22:25

This one looks like a "slap" rather than a "clap" !

O4bqZZUj3BM

Dr :8

PS: Most pilots seem wary of the C210, but I can only recall one confirmed case of 210 wing failure in Australia - many years ago on descent into Cloncurry. Any others?

Paul O'Rourke

27th Feb 2011, 22:32

As I recall, that Partenavia was doing loops at the airshow so I am not surprised it dropped its bundle.

Capt Fathom

27th Feb 2011, 22:45

The sad thing about that Partenavia crash was the fact the pilot's wife/partner was doing the commentary! :(

Jabawocky

27th Feb 2011, 23:14

Binghi you really need to use your brain a bit more. :ugh:

Waghi Warrior said
Good to see some varied opinions on my last however I agree with Josh, also as I mentioned in my last, if the aircraft is maintained correctly there shouldn't be any major problems !!!! However I don't dismiss that some of these aircraft (And I'm not only specifically talking about Commanders) are well and truly operating beyond their used by dates. It's amazing what a good coat of paint can cover up !

and you went on to say
Waghi Warrior are you saying that the aircraft up north are not properly maintained ?

Clever bait laying, however would you stop suggesting people say things they did not. You put the words in WW's mouth that suggest he thinks ALL aircraft up there are that way. He never said that at all. :=

What he was suggesting in my opinion is that some (thats means not all) are beyond their use by dates, and under a coat of paint they look great but hidden beneath are all sorts of mysteries.

Therefore when you have a seemingly good aeroplane, MR all up to date there is still a very real risk that all is not perfectly safe for flight.

Post maintenance it is fer the pilot/capitano to ultimately decide if the aircraft is good to go.
And that is an assumption you take Capitano Binghi when you do your daily and sign it out. Did you personally inspect all the flight controls? NO Did you crack test all the critical linkages? NO Did you boroscope the engine? NO Did you overhaul the Mags yourself? NO.

So you ASSUME that because it has vaild MR these things are all in check.

So Capitano Binghi..........your superior daily inspection skills and X-Ray vission must make you the safest guy in the Tropics then huh?

Sorry folks..........I will try not to feed the Troll any more. I might have to use that ignore button for the first time :hmm:

1a sound asleep

27th Feb 2011, 23:40

By the time a plane is 40 years of age the G limits have probably decreased by 10% and VNE is likely less than it was 40 years ago.

tolakuma manki

27th Feb 2011, 23:43

In late 98 or early 99 an AC 500 landed short of HID from lack of fuel.
Fuel management is an issue with these machines as one cannot dip the tanks successfully.

TM

TriMedGroup

28th Feb 2011, 00:31

Without intending to divulge from the original thread topic any further, the myth of "wing clapping" has been pointed out by "Mainframe". Perhaps I can shed some light on the myth of the Shrike wing spar.

*This is coming from someone who has done nothing but read about and discuss the ins and out of the Shrike and its peers for the last few months in an attempt to find a suitable aircraft for our operation. I am not endorsed on the aircraft.

Wing failures due to wing overload in all of the cases I have read about, occur with almost symmetrical downward separation of both wings. Wing clapping in the YMCA dance fashion does not normally happen.

The original CAR 3 ultimate flight loads of the 500 were +6.6 and -2.7g, and the CASA approved ultimate flight loads for the STC'd increase in MTOW are +5.7 and -2.28g. To exceed these limits, you would need to subject the airframe to one hell of a strong gust, that would more than likely destroy any GA aircraft not just a Shrike.

From the VH-YJB report:

An examination of the relevant fracture surfaces found that there was no evidence of a pre-existing fault or structural weakness in either wing spar. None of the failed wing main structural load-bearing elements showed any evidence of cracking or corrosion. All fracture features were typical of ductile, tensile or shear failure under elevated stresses.

This particular airframe had done in the region of 150 hours since being imported from the US, where it had spent its entire life operating to the original CAR 3 MTOW.

This accident serves to highlight the dangers of sudden control inputs to correct flight path deviations due to turbulence:

The reconstruction determined that the breakup initiated from the separation of both left and right outer wings sections at symmetrical locations. Both main spar wing breaks coincided with the outboard flap/aileron transition and exhibited overstress in a downward direction.

Sounds like a mountain wave rolling the aircraft one way with the pilot making control inputs the opposite way, at a speed above the calculated Va for the aircrafts MTOW ( which was 400Kg less than the original CAR 3 certified MTOW). A mis understanding of the terms and meaning of Va, Vb and Vp seems common.

The Shrike spar issues are detailed in the document issued by CASA and found here: http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/papers/aerocommander.pdf

As the disclaimer states, this document is not so much a critique of the Aero commander but more uses the aircraft as an example to typify the practicalities of controlling fatigue in small commuter aircraft. I doubt that until SIDS for the Cessnas came out, anyone had done as much of an in depth analysis into fatigue. Even after the findings from all the investigations on the Aero Commander CASA still allow the MTOW increase STC.

A number of Cessna's have lost wings and they are subject to a much more scruitinsing inspection schedule than the Aero Commander, yet they dont recieve anywhere near the hammering that the Commander gets. A number of Cessna's have life limits imposed because it cant be guaranteed that they will hold together any longer. Likewise the Partenavia. I would love to see the results of an investigation of the scale of the Aero Commander one, if it were conducted on the PA31 or similar type.

How many in-flight break ups did Bob Hoover suffer in his time flying AC50's? I know that the majority of the time the aircraft was kept at 1g but there was also a lot of loops and rolls.

People should look beyond criticising the Aero-Commander and perhaps look at the bigger problem of poorly maintained aircraft and poor pilot education in the dissemination / application of Va, Vb and Vp. I am in no way implying the subject accident of this thread was a result of either.

Waghi Warrior

28th Feb 2011, 00:42

I saw that one TM, it was on the reef just short of the beach within a couple of hundred meters of where another AC500 crashed with fatal results a few years before.

FB, I didn't mention anything about aircraft up north, it was a general comment.

In regard to the MR being valid and the aircraft is safe to fly, yes it is from a legal point of view, however occasionally I have come across aircraft that aren't safe to fly in, with MR's indicating no reported defects on them with 1 hour to go before a check, and the machine looks like it's never been in a hangar since it was manufactured. I know this raises a few eyebrows on ramp checks, and so it should if the aircraft looks untidy and shabby.

Holding for a considerable amount of time due to weather can really stress the hell out of me, not because of fuel but just due to the workload of having to do approaches and missed approaches. I have the luxury to be able to fly with another pilot in my current job. If I'm ever going to have to circle or get down low for what ever reason, which does happen from time to time in the highlands of PNG where we have no other alternative sometimes, and this is legal in PNG, Ala Tabubil and Chimbu style. I always nominate a minimum airspeed and a minimum altitude that I will operate to and I fully brief the other pilot to continuously monitor this, ie speak up when required and just don't sit there and watch me stall the aircraft or fly the thing into the ground. This is extremely important in drizzle, rain, or where there is fog. The fatigue levels really increases as well when operating under these conditions, so you have to be really aware of and know you fatigue limits, not only as an individual but as a crew as well. You also have to be aware of the other crew members experience level, especially if the other pilot is a low timer. CRM and human factors play a huge role, and operating single pilot is even worse.

Anyway I really think the thread is starting to drift somewhat.

Have a great day everyone and remember to keep the blue up and the rest down.

Safe flying.

tolakuma manki

28th Feb 2011, 01:38

In regard to the MR being valid and the aircraft is safe to fly, yes it is from a legal point of view, however occasionally I have come across aircraft that aren't safe to fly in, with MR's indicating no reported defects on them with 1 hour to go before a check, and the machine looks like it's never been in a hangar since it was manufactured. I know this raises a few eyebrows on ramp checks, and so it should if the aircraft looks untidy and shabby.

Mmmm, one must be very careful here. Happened to work on HID in late 90's, serviced aircraft belonging to most of the operators into Torres Strait. Including some that remain there today.
It is fair, but harsh, to say that the culture at the time was one of avoidance rather than compliance - and yes (gulp) engineering was complicit in this.

TM

Waghi Warrior

28th Feb 2011, 04:20

TM,

I fully understand, and as you mentioned it's really a GA culture issue to some degree. From the way that I see it, things may be turning around for the better, given the amount of opinions and views that people have posted on this and other forums in relation to the way some operators have been behaving. Thing's will never be perfect, but if they can get better at least that's a start.

As for CASA, well lets no go down that road please !

1a sound asleep

28th Feb 2011, 05:19

Update – overdue light aircraft, Far Northern Region
by Queensland Police Service on Monday, 28 February 2011 at 13:57

Police continue to conduct land sweeps of Horn Island, Prince of Wales and the Northern Peninsular for a light aircraft that failed to arrive at its destination last week.

The aircraft, which was travelling from Cairns to Horn Island, failed to arrive at its destination on Thursday morning.

Extensive air, land and sea searches have been conducted in the area since then but have failed to find any sign of the light aircraft.

Police believe the pilot, a 37-year-old Yorky’s Knob man was the only person in the aircraft at the time of the incident.

lilflyboy262

28th Feb 2011, 06:50

Fork~
There was one last year in Namibia where a C210 crashed. Havent seen the report but a sat tracking readout showed a high g load prior to the crash. Single pilot doing a freight run... believed to be doing a barrel roll while bored.

I have no time on the Commander but as someone touched on before about a runaway trim. Wouldnt pulling the circuit breaker on the electric trim solve this? Or is it more of a mechanical issue?

The scary bit is how there was no radio call at all. Where is the power source located in the commander? Or how about the avionics?

Mainframe

1st Mar 2011, 09:14

Interesting reading.

Cairns Post update:

Twist of fate in flight of tragedy- Local Cairns News | cairns.com.au (http://www.cairns.com.au/article/2011/03/01/151881_local-news.html)

Forget the wings clapping or slapping, the MR etc etc.

The aircraft flew from Cairns to Horn Island, It arrived but held in the vicinity due weather, radio reports were made, it disappeared while holding.

The pilot wasn't rostered for the flight, he was called in because
the rostered pilot declined the flight based on his assessment of the prevailing weather at the destination.

zac21

1st Mar 2011, 09:56

(the rostered pilot declined the flight based on his assessment of the prevailing weather at the destination)

And dont forget 'Mainframe', the rostered pilot was not very experienced, particularly with those conditions in our very wet season, and the Chief Pilot, who was very familiar with the conditions, wasnt called in,,, he nominated himself to the task, and he was a very capable pilot.

LeadSled

1st Mar 2011, 11:46

Has the change from "Hard wired"121.5 beacons to 406 hand helds in most light aircraft contributed to not finding this aircraft?
I would presume the last thing you would be thinking of that close to the earths surface would be getting the 406 beacon from behind a seat, jammed in a seat pocket and activating it.
Should the 406 beacons be hard wired like the old 121.5????

Folks,
To get a few facts straight, the failure rate of "hard wired" ELT in actual accident scenarios is about 95%, except where the aircraft goes into the water, then the failure rate is 100%.
See CASA figures from the post implementation study, which confirmed the AOPA research into actual accidents, published in 1995.
There never was a final regulation in Australia to force the fitting of fixed ELT, it was repealed in about 1996, and the "new" regulations made at the same time.
Tootle pip!!

blackhand

1st Mar 2011, 22:04

the pilot supposed to fly, unlike the news paper said, it was decently experienced, but new of Cairns, and I think he refused to fly that night because of heavy storm activity without a weather radar.
I think it was a sensitive decision.

This is an example of "hindsight bias" and has to be overcome in any investigation.
It is a known problem:
that because the outcome was so bad the risks should have been recognised prior to the incident.

Ex FSO GRIFFO

1st Mar 2011, 23:35

Just heard on radio 6PR - Perth - 0830 Local news - that 'some wreckage has been located on or near Dugong Island, some 80km E of Horn Island'.....was all that I managed to hear.

gordonfvckingramsay

1st Mar 2011, 23:50

I think you are spot on Blackhand.

However, surely when one experienced crew member declines the flight due to very valid safety reasons and another one goes in their place, investigators must smell a rat. The risks apparently were recognised before the flight.

Terrible waste of life, I feel sorry for both pilots.

CaptainInsaneO

2nd Mar 2011, 00:16

By Brad Ryan

Posted 3 hours 33 minutes ago

Air safety authorities are investigating whether debris found yesterday in the Torres Strait, off far north Queensland, is connected to a missing plane.
The plane, flown by a 37-year-old man, left Cairns for Horn Island last Thursday.
Authorities say search crews yesterday found debris, including a tub, near Dugong Island, about 80 kilometres east of Horn Island.

The debris is being assessed, while air and sea searches focus on waters between Dugong and Moa islands.
There has been no sign of the pilot, who last made radio contact just before his twin-engine plane was due to land at Horn Island.
Authorities say it is a mystery because the pilot spoke to air traffic controllers 15 minutes before the scheduled landing and there was no indication at any stage there were problems.

(ABC)

Xcel

3rd Mar 2011, 00:18

Search now officially called off... Rip

1a sound asleep

3rd Mar 2011, 21:53

Pilot's dad hopes search will go on- Local Cairns News | cairns.com.au (http://www.cairns.com.au/article/2011/03/04/152645_local-news.html)

THE father of a Cairns pilot feared dead after his plane went missing in the Torres Strait is holding out hope a team of police divers can find the aircraft.

"We are very upset but it has been a week and there is little chance of finding him unless we find the plane," he said.
"I think they have just about exhausted the resources they have up there.
"We are hopeful if the search continues, they will find the plane."

Mr Aldhamland was the chief pilot for Amity Airways, recording many hours flying time in Papua New Guinea

onetrack

4th Mar 2011, 02:43

Well, they've found wreckage (plastic crates and a document) that have been confirmed as being from VH-WZU.
This has to give some reasonably good indication of the position of the aircraft remains, unless the currents are particularly strong in that area?
The depth charts for the area show vast areas of relatively shallow water (< 200M), so the wreckage has to have a good chance of being found, relatively soon?

http://www.amsa.gov.au/About_AMSA/Media_Releases/Current_Media_Releases/documents/110302%20Search%20for%20missing%20aircraft%20in%20Torres%20S trait%20concludes.pdf

Jabawocky

4th Mar 2011, 05:21

unless the currents are particularly strong in that area?

You Betcha!

1a sound asleep

4th Mar 2011, 05:30

and (80 kilometres east of Horn Island). That is some holding

beaver_rotate

4th Mar 2011, 05:36

1A

It's called "current" mate.

Friends of mine dive and have done so in that part of the world. It was said to be relatively calm up top, yet once in the water, my mate said he was holding on for dear life and his body was perfectly horizontal at only 6' depth.

InDaBack

4th Mar 2011, 05:44

tides through the straits can reach 8 knots on the big tides, generally they run around 4-5 knots...

tail wheel

4th Mar 2011, 06:22

...unless the currents are particularly strong in that area?

Up to a 15 knot current between Somerset and Albany Island! :ouch:

Two_dogs

18th Mar 2011, 09:10

Heard Today that WZU has been found. No further details available.

zac21

19th Mar 2011, 12:06

WZU found?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heard Today that WZU has been found. No further details available.

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????

Two_dogs

19th Mar 2011, 12:27

Sorry, was misinformed. Got a text from a mate that said he had received that information. Got another text today informing me it was not true.

Ejector

23rd Mar 2011, 17:02

I am sorry, in the last 2 years, the last 3 Three companies that I flew for all had sat tracking in their machines, these were all GA companies, two piston singles and one twin turbine GA, The operators of WSU (I don't know them) should be ashamed of them selves and I hope the 'ghost" of this wreck stresses them. RIP buddy pilot, we all did it for the hours and peanuts too, I hope lessons learnt and changers are made and Sat Tracking is the norm in 12 months time in ALL oz machines. :ugh: :ugh:

It must be Hell for the family of this young aviator and the operators must be living in regret as well for not setting the equipment up properly as well.
(Note for Trolling Jurnos scumbags, there is no indication of ANY thing against the regs in this case for no Sat tracking, it's not required yet unfortunaly, but many operators do it for efienctcy if nothing else.):}

Waghi Warrior

24th Mar 2011, 06:50

Sat tracking ? GA what do you expect ? I have seen this gear in action and it's very good, at least they would have had some idea where he crashed even if it was in the sea and the wreckage has drifted to South America.

aussietomcat

24th Mar 2011, 09:41

the Aircraft was followed on a company computer when disappeared.
Sat tracking is a great device but still does not fix the real problem.
GA is terrible, it is a huge industry, where pilots are used and abused, where we have to fly for crap money, in really old aircrafts, under equipped, in demanding environment as the Australian wet season, rolling a dice everytime, thinking that everything will be fine.
Good on the pilot that was supposed to fly and refused it.
Any pilot should not fly in those conditions, during night hours, with storms scattered all around cape york, without a weather radar, without a decent GPS unit and with a very marginal weather.
I am sorry for Brant, he was a great guy, always smiling and ready for a joke.
Is a good lesson for everyone, never feel to over confident, thinking that we did it already 1000 times.... because the 1001 can be the one that kills you.
If pilots start refusing to fly in those conditions and if ATSB will impose new safety minimum equipment maybe something will change.

Good bye Brant, I am sorry for you and for what happened.

Flying Binghi

25th Mar 2011, 07:27

the Aircraft was followed on a company computer when disappeared.

aussietomcat, just to confirm, are you saying the aircraft was being sat tracked ?

.

Jabawocky

25th Mar 2011, 09:51

Interesting observation.........

Just imagine if there was VHF comms in the area...:confused: Hmmm THERE IS!!!

Just imagine if by some VHF link you could have Lat/Long data etc sent every second to a ground station.........:confused:

And what if ground station was linked to Air Services?:ooh:

What would you call this safety enhancement for SAR purposes, or for any other useful ATC service provided to IFR or even VFR flights outside of radar coverage???:confused::ooh:

Funny I suggested something along these lines after the Lockhart River prang and Dick Smith too great delight in hammering me.

Anyway....please do not reply, do not start a pprune fight over my posting here.........just contemplate and think about what if this was a SAR that may have had a better outcome with a really accurate place to start looking.

J:sad:

Ex FSO GRIFFO

25th Mar 2011, 09:58

Jaba,

I say - I say - I say there boy...
Wash your mouth...Is U talkin' ADSB..??
Or maybe FS Flight Following with ADSB.......NOW, THAT'S the way to go....!!!
And, oddly enough was a proposal at one time....

Sadly, in this case, the local currents may have 'moved' things considerably....

InDaBack

14th Nov 2011, 05:20

Wreckage found over past two days....

beaver_rotate

14th Nov 2011, 05:59

No way!! Only just come accross the poor bugger in my Lobgook yesterday... sad :(

bananna

14th Nov 2011, 06:09

Wreckage found over past two days....

Any idea of the specific location? PM if you want.

Frank Arouet

14th Nov 2011, 06:27

just contemplate and think about what if this was a SAR that may have had a better outcome with a really accurate place to start looking.

Any idea of the specific location?

Well, if we had ADSB, IN/OUT/ SIDEWISE/BACK and FRONT, and someone WAS watching, and the last known plot correlated with the ELT transmission we would all know.

Unfortunately the ELT, like an ASIC appears to have failed it's purpose, so it gets back to the Human element of having that knowledge, and then we are all happy, that someone is watching all traffic in class G airspace via the wiz bang gadgetry that "enthusiasts" deem necessary in lieu of full reporting.

And Jabba, ADSB would not have prevented Lockhart River.

Jabawocky

14th Nov 2011, 06:34

And Jabba, ADSB would not have prevented Lockhart River.

No not in itself, that is the EGPWS's job.

But had there been Class E and ADSB it would have been ATC monitored, and apart from a duck and dive approach which may have been too quick to pick, someone may have pulled him up on descending too early. Or even the other software in TAATS that monitors LSALT's etc, however it works. With no coverage there is no chance of either. ;)

PLovett

14th Nov 2011, 10:51

Jaba, what you described back in March sounds very similar to what is being trialled in Tassie right now. IIRC the acronym is WAMLATS or Wide Area Multi-Lateral Signal (or something like that).

It is a series of ground stations that triangulate your transponder code and then paint your position, altitude etc. on something similar to a radar screen. The idea is to use it where a full-blown radar would not be cost-effective. Some of the feed-back I have heard is that it gives a better and more accurate coverage than radar but that was very unofficial.

Jabawocky

14th Nov 2011, 11:36

WAMLAT is pretty good and it is working most of the time down there last I asked. I think they have had some bugs to work through as well.

WAMLAT is I think best suited to remote class D type locations around OZ, NW WA would be a good example. As a SA tool for ATC it would reduce the chatter back and forth on the tower freq by a large margin if nothing else.

Its accuracy is pretty good when I was clocked at at 190 knots on downwind for 14R :E.........well lets be 100% honest, I was not actually at the controls at the time, but a bloke we all know who looks at said WAMLAT in the dog house was :E:}.

As for the hypothetical further above that is really only going to be viable with ADSB in remote CTAF's. WAMLAT all over Oz would be frightening :eek:

Apologies for thread drift here:oh:

Trojan1981

15th Nov 2011, 00:11

I have worked with the pilot who refused to fly that flight. He is not your typical young and naive GA pilot. He is a bit older and wiser than most. For him, to refuse to fly and effectively throw away the job would not have been a decision taken lightly. He believed there was significant risk of and accident.

So has any wreckage been found?

Frank Arouet

15th Nov 2011, 02:31

RAAF did lose an FA-18 up the top end once. Has that ever been found?

Just thinking aloud about the ELT.

Capt Fathom

15th Nov 2011, 05:23

So has any wreckage been found?

Trojan... post #113

Frank. The RAAF FA-18 was finally located not that far from Weipa. It was missing for several years.
I seem to recall a bushfire went through and revealed it's presence. But it's a bit hazy.

CaptainInsaneO

15th Nov 2011, 07:44

So has any wreckage been found?

Yep.

Diver finds fatal plane crash wreck

By Kirsty Nancarrow
Updated November 15, 2011 14:12:05

Queensland police have officially confirmed the death of a pilot who disappeared in February after the discovery of aircraft wreckage in the Torres Strait.
The 37-year-old pilot was the only one on board the Aero Commander.
The plane was travelling between Cairns and Horn Island on a cargo flight but failed to arrive.
The aircraft's disappearance sparked one of Australia's largest searches, covering an area of more than 2,500 square nautical miles between Cape York and the Torres Strait Islands.
Police on Thursday Island say a local diver found wreckage off Moa Island a fortnight ago, 15 metres under the water.
Five police divers were brought up from Brisbane and have confirmed it is the missing aircraft.
The pilot's family has been notified.
Senior Sergeant Jamie Horn from Thursday Island says police are preparing a report for the coroner and the Australian Transport Safety Bureau is also investigating the crash.
"The damage to the aircraft is pretty catastrophic," he said.
"Even though it's clearly able to be identified, there's been no evidence of human remains at this stage.
"The missing pilot's family have been advised of such and it would certainly seem no prospects of survivability [sic] from that crash."