LIBYA (Merged) Use this thread ONLY

[67Wing]

If you had to enforce a NFZ (on behalf of the UN, for example) over the main population centres of Libya would you do it from carriers or from somewhere like Sicily or Malta? Sicily to Tripoli looks a similar distance as Incirlik to the old Iraqi northern NFZ. Banghazi is further, about an hour from Palermo but much less from Crete.

[Pontius Navigator]

Yes, Ark and a few SHAR could provide a good day time cover with Malta a secure rear area.

Oops there we go again, looking in the past.

[Caspian237]

Given adequate basing facilites and capacity surely Typhoons flying from loacal airbases would be more appropriate to enforcing a NFZ than harriers flying from an aircraft carrier?

Lord Owen was on the BBC last night calling for just such an operation. It's about time the EU, particularly those countries on the Mediterranean stepped up and showed that they are good for something. It is primarily their neighbourhood and their political, economic and energy ties that are risk. How to win friends and influence people. Get those Typhoons and Rafales moving southwards.

[just another jocky]

Depends upon the carrier/aircraft, surely? And the threat.

[Caspian237]

Well how many carriers do we have? Besides the only aircraft they would be carrying would be harriers. The Threat? Presumably there are more of those Mirage Jets?

[High_Expect]

Yeah from what I gather there are loads of serviceable jets kicking around at Cby and the Typhoon boys are finding 6 QRA jets a breeze what with their stupidly high manning levels. I'm sure all those bored aircrew would love an Op. Something they could get there teeth into and use all those flying hours for something productive...... Oh no hang on. . .... The sarcasm button appears to be stuck on.

[Willard Whyte]

The Threat? Presumably there are more of those Mirage Jets?

Air Force Equipment (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/libya/af-equip.htm)

Bombers : 6 TU-22A/U Blinder.
Fighter/Ground Attack : 50 Mig-21MF Fishbed, 75 MiG-23B/ML Flogger, 60 Mig-25 Foxbat, 15 Mirage F1-ED, 6 Mirage F1-BD, 40 MIG 23BN Flogger, 15 Mig 23-U Flogger, 30 Mirage 5D/DE, 14 Mirage 5DD, 14 Mirage F1-AD, 45 SU-20/22 Fitter.
Counterinsurgency: 24 Jastreb J-1E.
Reconnaissance: 5 Mirage 5DR, 7 Mig 25-R Foxbat.
Strike and multi-role aircraft : 12 SU-24MK Fencer, 40 SU-22M-3 Fitter, 10 MIG-25R/U Foxbat, 2 TU-22U Blinder.

[Caspian237]

High_Expect, here is some oil for the sarcasm button. I was really suggesting that carriers are not necessarily needed for the type of operation that is proposed. It was in answer to the question posed by the OP as well as a reply by Pontius.

I will of course surrender to your better knowledge on available aircraft and crew. Besides I think if there is an imposition of a NFZ then it should be policed by those countries in the neighbourhood of Libya.

[67Wing]

Local air superiority might need more than a few fighters and, presumably, some assured sea control would be required for carrier ops. Wiki mentions that Libya has SA2, 3 and 6 so some good ISTAR and hard/soft counter measures would be required. I think it would be fair to assume that Gaddafi (or however you spell him today) would be more than happy for his AD assets to be weapons free. I'm thinking that AWACS, AAR, SEAD/EW, Recce and pre and post fighter sweeps would be pretty essential for starters. If carriers are involved, add some ASUW and ASW airborne assets. Given the distances, you could probably protect the land bases with QRA but that would likely not be responsive enough to give cover to an up-range carrier.

[Jayand]

Why do all that? just have some fast air with tanker support from nearest friendly base in med, easy peasy! and it's totally hypothetical as it won't be happening.

[Uncle Ginsters]

...or act before all that is needed:ugh:

[Wensleydale]

Method much the same way as the NFZ was enforced over Bosnia for most of the 1990s. Difference should be that the NFZ should be strictly enforced as well as monitored this time: ie some political will and robust ROE.

[Willard Whyte]

Gaddafi (or however you spell him today)

Close enough.

Libya: A Qaddafi by any other name would still be a bloodthirsty dictator | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2011/02/libya)

[Pontius Navigator]

WW, did you remember to knock 2 F1s an Su22 off that list?

[Willard Whyte]

I did not. Figured that might be one cherry requiring several bites over the next few days...

[Geehovah]

Isn't it strange that Typhoons were cold war platforms that would never be needed in anger just a few months ago

How short our memories are!

Hopefully our politicians are being reminded that control of the air is the first rule of air power.

And I wont mention that we used to deploy to Malta to demonstrate high intensity deployed air defence operations.

[Wrathmonk]

Isn't it strange that Typhoons were cold war platforms that would never be needed in anger just a few months ago

How short our memories are

And how ironic that the only aircraft fleet sufficiently large to monitor a NFZ for 10 years [plus] non-stop (and sometimes two NFZ at the same time during that period!), then continue through TELIC for another 5 years or so was the TGRF. Yes the Jag/SHAR/GR5-7 did a bit but they couldn't manage it without a break. Will we ever learn ....?:E

[not forgetting the support of the Victor / VC10 and Tri* fleets as well of course;)]

[TEEEJ]

Willard Whyte,

That is a very old inventory and not really representative of the current fleet. The MiG-25s were taken out of service some time ago. The Mirage Vs were sold off to Pakistan. The Tu-22 Blinders went years ago. A small fleet of Mirage F.1s were recently overhauled by Dassault. The fleet is very much representative of what has been seen at the Libyan aviation and arms fairs over the past couple of years - LAVEX.

The MiG-25 noted in the following link were examples dragged out for the enthusiasts. The Libyans will have a fleet of Su-22 Fitter, Su-24 Fencer, MiG-23 Flogger, MiG-21, L-39 and Sokos for light ground attack, Mirage F1s along with Hind helos.

Photo Search Results | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?airlinesearch=Libya%20-%20Air%20Force&distinct_entry=true)

TJ

[Justanopinion]

101 Sqn in her glorious days of being a pure tanker Sqn was certainly a busy place to be post GW1- shame the Sqn are seemingly losing 2 more frames this summer to the scrap heap - especially with the Tristar AAR capable frames failure rate for towlines/trails during the last 14 months.

I realise that we have less RAF/Navy FJ to support BUT don't forget that the VC10's was deployed to Seeb in 2002 to support the US Navy flying Ops in Afghanistan and not RAF fast jets.

[Bevo]

Another look at current Libyan Air Force equipment.

Libyan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Air_Force)

Bevo

[Uncle Ginsters]

VC10's was deployed to Seeb in 2002 to support the US Navy flying Ops in Afghanistan

...and don't forget that that deployment happened in Nov 2001, and that a lot of the trade was also RAF E3D and Nimrod (at least thats what my logbook says:))

[ORAC]

Why male things complicated. park the 6th Fleet in the Gulf of Sirte and it can provide all the required air and SAW cover by itself.

[Green Flash]

BBC News reporting RAF plane leaves Tripoli with 71 people on board.

[just another jocky]

Wrath....ironic indeed, but then there are so many ironioes out there right now. And don't forget there were a lot more GR sqns then, not the 7 or 5 or less we can plan on today.

For those considering a UK carrier with resurrected GR9's on board, could you explain exactly how a Harrier can patrol a NFZ with no radar and only short-range IR missiles? Or how the carrier can defend itself against the threat of all those Libyan strike assets?

IF (and it's a big IF) we could mount a shared NFZ, the only aircraft we could use would be F3 or Tiffie, neither of which I think are in a position to do such. And as for necessary AR assets??? Happy to be shown to be wrong though.

[Justanopinion]

...and don't forget that that deployment happened in Nov 2001, and that a lot of the trade was also RAF E3D and Nimrod (at least thats what my logbook sayshttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif)

Flippin eck it was wasn't it? The oompah band in the middle of the desert should have triggered that memory...... and the delightfully helpful admin sgt who was in situ for Saif sarea - thread drift.............. a child was conceived amongst the 40 + bed BFOT was it not?

[biscuit74]

Green Flash - Does that mean our benighted Government has finally got around to sending in a military aircraft to evacuate British nationals?
Wonders will never cease.

Given that France sent in their miltary transports some time ago, and the Dutch did the same, taking some of our folk out along with theirs, it was getting embarrassing listening to William Hague twitterring on about civilian charter machines breaking down or refusing to go.

I was beginning to wonder just how short of military capacity they'd managed to leave us.

[Pontius Navigator]

The Torygraph today has a very useful map showing the split in the country. There is also a short letter explaining the historic nature of the country.

As the larger part of the country is in 'rebel' hands and Benghazi is their centre, it would appear that any NFZ would be required to stop pro-Government forces attacking the rebels. It could be seen as too political.

[Uncle Ginsters]

and the delightfully helpful admin sgt who was in situ for Saif sarea - thread drift.............. a child was conceived amongst the 40 + bed BFOT was it not?
:} I believe so, although it might take Jeremy Kyle to prove it!

Not forgetting the 'Cup Tree' and Gp Capt Mover's "What's all this noise in the night, i've got an Exercise to organise you know!" outburst :ugh:

Back on thread though, before everyone on here goes off on one about loss af capability, let's not forget that we currently have a major undertaking already longer than the 2 World Wars put together still ongoing!

I believe we do have the assets, but they're spread too thinly on HERRICK at the moment. The decision is do we support 1 medium(and some) scale Op and still keep reserves for small-scale interludes like today?

Were the priorities so, assets would be allocated. So, do we prioritise militarily or execute knee-jerks to every Sky News phone-in headline? :sad:

Also, don't we have other aircraft capable of moving a fair few personnel a fair bit quicker than Albert? Saving those boys for doing what they do best.

[biscuit74]

Caspian 237 :

"Given adequate basing facilites and capacity surely Typhoons flying from loacal airbases would be more appropriate to enforcing a NFZ than harriers flying from an aircraft carrier?"

I think that is the point, sadly. Your 'givens' are dubious at best, which is why carriers were always handy to have. Rely on no-one, can sit just out of sight over the horizon, location variable & uncertain. However, without SHAR, which was still a highly capable wee fighter in the right circumstances, the carrier idea is a non-starter.


(RAF GA Harriers, although superb at their GA role, are (were) useless for this purpose. As with the RAF/FAA claims and controversy before the Second World War, the RAF's claims to be able to provide shipborne capability were designed solely to fool politicians.

That those same politicians now appear to be axing everything in sight to pay off bankers debts is perhaps unsurprising. They don't do logic, they do short term convenience. And unfortunately a quick look at this crisis shows how little we can do militarily now. Eheu. I'll bet they draw the wrong conclusions too.)

[Pontius Navigator]

Also, don't we have other aircraft capable of moving a fair few personnel a fair bit quicker than Albert? Saving those boys for doing what they do best.

I imagine going into Libya where they can operate without ground support, steps etc and make a tactical departure if required is exactly what they can do best.

A T* without steps might be as much use as a chocolate teapot.

[Uncle Ginsters]

AT* without steps might be as much use as a chocolate teapot

Quite correct, but we do have a 4-jet that doesn't need steps ;) 7 of them, in fact (if that's not specific enough:ok:)

[Pontius Navigator]

Uncle, ah yes, I forgot them. May be they didn't mind risking a rusty old K model? :ooh:

[67Wing]

My recollection of the Iraq Southern NFZ between GW1 and GW2 was that the US carriers had difficulty in mounting 24 hours ops and were very reliant on land based AAR, AWACs and the whole C3 piece. Even then the Navy aircraft seemed very limited on range and I don't recall them penetrating much further than Tallil before they needed to dart back to the ship. I can' swear to this, but that's how the ATO looked to me. So it would seem that even if carrier based aircraft were used, the ship becomes, essentially, just another airfield that needs to be plugged into the bigger air plan most of which is land based. Bottom line was that when the carrier couldn't fly no one really noticed or cared but they were useful to have around to allow for a few down days and a visit to the local swimming pool. Not sure how it would work with UAVs but I assume that the useful long range UAVs are all land based.

[ECAM_Actions]

I was beginning to wonder just how short of military capacity they'd managed to leave us.
You aren't the only one.

Whilst Cameron and his defense entourage are busy selling arms to Egypt maybe they'd like to make a pass at the MoD?

ECAM Actions.

[just another jocky]

67 - you are absolutely correct. I helped write one of the 'plans' and naval aviation was never able to go far or cover for very long when compared to land-based assets.

[Madbob]

If I was a journo (which I am not, and never have been!) I would ask the FO whether the "tech" delay at LGW was down to insurance problems on the airframe.

Being cynical in my old age, I can easily imagine the charter airline having difficulties, not so much about getting crew as it is possible to encourage volunteers to fly the plane, but getting insurance cover for the hull might be difficult in a conflict zone.

Mind you, these wouldn't have arisen in the days when the RAF had real options to offer HMG, with not just a choice of aircaft but a range of airfields from which to dispatch them!

MB

[just another jocky]

A friend of mine just got back on one of the charter flights. Here's what he said:

On the Ground In Tripoli.
The situation these is extremely violent and there is chaos everywhere. Lawless and Anarchy has set in. There are groups driving around the area where I was with AK 47's randomly shooting into the air and the hoarding around our site was peppered with gunshot holes. Fortunately noone was injured in the site and we had some 1400 personnel housed there, me included.
Getting to the Airport on three occassions was a nightmare and there are roadblocks everywhere manned by Malitia in some areas, army in other areas and who knows who in other areas. Smile and pay the bribes and hopefully you get on your way.
The airport when I eventually got there yesterday was like a cattle market. There was, I estimate some 15,000 people crowded outside the terminal, trying to get in with no hope of getting on a flight. I stood there wondering how I was going to get in. I was travelling light as there was no way I was getting through with my suitcase etc so all I had was my computer bag and a small backpack with my valuables. After about an hour I spotted two europeans with hi-vis jackets on and it was the FCO coming to the rescue. they took me to the marshalling area for the British and logged me in and assured me that the flight was on its way from UK to collect us. Then it started to rain. No shelter and it was cold. There was approx 120 Brits waiting under on Gazebbo for shelter. Not the fault of the FCO I might add as the space was limited and the Authorities would not allow anything else.
We were concerned about how we would get into the Terminal when we were eventually advised it was time to move. there were approx 2500 Egyptians who had dominated the position that was the only entrance into the terminal and they had no hope of getting in as there were no Egyptian flights out. They had been there for 4 days trying to get in and were obstructing everyone else who tried to get in. The Libyan police batton charged them on a few occassions and cleared the way but they soon reformed until later in the day the Army resorted to Tear Gassing them and they still returned but this time in an orderly queue and still it was like a gauntlet to get into the Terminal.
The FCO staff did a marvelous job on the ground and especially a Libyan by the name of Mansood, he was an absolute star, who paved the way for us via bribes, baton weilding henchmen, and a lot of pushing and shoving, we got in to the terminal only to find that it was nearly as bad inside. The area outside the terminal is like a cess pit. Literally human excreta and urine everywhere.
Every step of the way was a bribe and only US dollars were acceptable currency. Heaven and the British Government alone knows the cost to get us through.

Once inside the terminal the FCO arranged the boarding passes and 20 of us were invited to exit via an Irish Airforce aircraft which was scheduled to leave shortly. I volunteered to get onto this one and off we went through immigation, (more bribes) xray (bribes) gate entry (bribes) and then onto a bus to get to the aircraft (again bribes). We drove around the stands looking for the aircraft for 30 minutes and then returned to the terminal only to be advised that the aircraft had already left empty as they needed to fill the take off slot.
We were then led back to the immigration area to wait for the next flight, the BP charter.
My quest started at 10am and it was now 1 am the this morning and still I was not on a flight. We could see the charter flight but they would not let us board as we were waiting for another 150 passengers to get through all the bull **** which we had already done.
2 hours later another 50 passenger arrived and they let us board but only after 2500 dollars to refuel the flight and 2500 dollars landing fees all payable in cash to some nameless official.
More body scans, xrays bribes and we got onto the plane. We waited for another hour for more passengers and the crew were running out of hours, they were already into their emergency hour. The captain eventually called it and then we had to bribe another bod to push back for take off. The tower then questioned the flight plan and another short delay occurred. We were beginning to think that we would be held there and the crew hours would run out and we would be there for another 6-8 hours at least.
Thankfully the Captain got clearance to leave and off we went with a huge cheer as the aircraft eventually left the runway and turned north for home.
I cannot thank the FCO and Home office staff on the ground for the hard work they all put into getting as out of Libya. They worked tirelessly and professionally at all times and were a credit to the British Government.
These has been a lot of criticism levelled at the government over the handling of this affair and if only people realised the difficulty of dealing with the Libyans you they would realise how onerous a task this was for them. The Libyan officials did everything they could to mess us around and made no attempt at any time to assist in getting anyone out of their country in these difficult times. I take back what I said about the "Ice Cream Salesman" on Tuesday. His team came through and thanks to them I am home, safe and warm in my own home and with my friends and family.

[NURSE]

when's Illistrious due out of refit and could a harrier sqn or two be worked up in time?

[Trim Stab]

when's Illistrious due out of refit and could a harrier sqn or two be worked up in time?


What could they do that a Typhoon squadron, supported by tankers if necessary, at Luqa could not do? There is no need to operate outside of allied airbases and in international waters in this situation.

[UAV689]

Nurse - are the harriers not scrapped? Or are they still sitting in hangers mothballed? Could they be brought back in or is it to late now?

[Evalu8ter]

Guys,
Harrier / SHAR are gone - get over it. Only the latter would be any use in the current situation. Of more use would be Ark with 5 CH47s on board and a hangar deck configured as a dormitory.

This does however punch a few more holes in the HNS arguement; how far is Malta? How many jets/tankers would you need to maintain a 24/7 CAP? Bet we can't do it.

Mr Fox et al,
What you have here is your genuine "strategic shock". The military is your (our) insurance policy against them. Don't pay your premium, don't expect to be covered. I wouldn't mind betting that some "conspiracy of optimism" career-hungry starred officers who've played the triple/quadruple hatting of assets game to curry favour have had an awkward couple of days explaining that (stand fast Typhoon...) the cupboard is bare....

[draken55]

"What could they do that a Typhoon squadron, supported by tankers if necessary, at Luqa could not do? There is no need to operate outside of allied airbases and in international waters in this situation"

Except that Luqa is not an allied base and Malta is neutral and non-allinged although a EU member.

Just a thought but as it's airspace has already been violated once by two Libyan Mirages (whose pilots were seeking asylum) what if the bulk of the Air Force has remained loyal and the next that might arrive have other ideas? Is Malta looking for air cover?

[skippedonce]

Just heard Lord Owen spouting on Sky News about how easy it would be for Tornados operating from Cyprus to enforce an NFZ! He also seems to think the US can magic up a couple of CVBGs at the drop of a hat as well.

Having spent so much time in eth public eye, it appears his ego won't let him slip away and enjoy his retirement, rather than talking hoop to stir up the Wail and Depress readers.:ugh:

This is also the man with such a good grasp of geography that on Wed morning he was on the Beeb telling the world how NATO airbases 'surround Libya'. While I accept hat the French may have access to basing in Chad to the south, and the Americans may have access to basing in Egypt to the east, these are bilateral argeements rather than 'NATO', and I'm not sure Algeria would be to happy providing access on Libya's western side.

[GeeRam]

how far is Malta?

About 220 miles from Tripoli, which would be a sensible base for coverage of the western half of Libya I would guess.

With Crete about the same distance away north from Toburk, that might be a better base for coverage of the eastern half of Libya...????

Not going to happen though I would think.

[Heathrow Harry]

Not sure the Great British Public will stand for another war at the same time as Afghanistan................

[67Wing]

Giving this a bit more thought, there's little point in just enforcing a NFZ, it would need to be in order to achieve something. Stopping the Libyan's bombing and strafing themselves would be a good start but there would be some ROE issues especially as civil air needs to continue for a good while yet. There is little point in threatening to shoot down Libyan military aircraft if they then close down their airspace to all users and deny use of the international airports. We would probably need to offer some protection and cover to civ air where possible. This would be a huge commitment. A likely scenario might be to totally closedown the airspace in the west but maintain some civi air corridors to airfields in the east,

Very soon after, we would need to be able to get in close to provide some kind of recce and attack cover for the population on the ground along the lines of that provided for the Marsh Arabs. Not ideal and not easy but putting troops on the ground would likely be a non-starter. And so the whole thing could escalate.

The term NFZ is very misleading. We should really be talking about something between a favourable air situation and air supremacy and then define what we would do with it. The SAMs would be a continuing issue.

Whatever the operation, I really don't think that a CVS with a few Harriers would have been up to much - so do we really miss them? They would have provided a lot of hot air and bluster on the news but would likely provided very little to the NATO air commander.

[Heathrow Harry]

as in Kosovo whenthe main killers are the ground based militia going house to house you can only help a little from the air

you need the Poor Bloody Infantry on the ground and

a) we don't have any spare as they are propping up that beacon of human rights President Karzai

and

b) the public would go ape

[Trim Stab]

UKSF and 1 Para (UKSF support) are already out in Luqa. I expect that they will wait until there is clear and direct danger to UK oilfield workers before taking action - politically it would be very difficult to deploy otherwise. I'd expect that there are a few guys on the ground out there already. It is still possible to fly in civilian aircraft - I went down to Sabha a few days ago - so they could get in discreetly.

[TEEEJ]

Libya: RAF Rescues 150 Workers From Libyan Desert | World News | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Libya-RAF-Rescues-150-Workers-From-Libyan-Desert/Article/201102415941447?f=rss)

Well done all!

TJ

[Mighty Quercus]

Well done all, you know who you are.

If the Govt hadn't dithered this could of been done days earlier with less risk to crews, aircraft and others.

[kappa]

I continue to hear calls for a NFZ, yet I have not read or heard any reports of bombing or strafing by a Libyan air force.

And on another thread (http://www.pprune.org/6266135-post1334.html) ATC Watcher reported “On the military side, the French "consultants" refurbishing the Mirages F1 are back in France and the only 2 F1s serviceable defected to Malta.”

Did I miss something?

[Trim Stab]

Are the RAF going to bill the oil companies for getting their people out? Otherwise these flights just undermine commercial operators.

We just did a charter down to Sabha to pick up some oil workers, and we had two other firm enquiries which have now not materialised, which is hardly surprising if the RAF are now doing it for free:(

[Wrathmonk]

Trim

I have asked this question a couple of times and have failed to get a definitive answer. Threads on other boards would suggest (although you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet ....;)) that the FCO charged for those evacuated from Egypt earlier in the year but that the PM has stated (I guess through embarassment) that those evacuated from Libya (by HMG chartered flights) would be free. Still looking for a firm quote to back this 'rumour' up. If true I could see a lot of Egypt evacuees seeking a refund.

A FoI question (http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/cost_and_additional_information) appears to have been asked (that's not me asking, by the way! Is it you????!:E) .....

[TEEEJ]

Kappa,

There have been reports since the start of Gadaffi forces using their aircraft and helos against the opposition. The media have shown evidence of this such as Hind helos firing their cannon and also at least one MiG-23 flying over opposition territory. One Su-22 Fitter is reported to have crashed after the crew ejected.

The Pilots who defected with their Mirage F1 reported that they were ordered to attack the opposition. They arrived in Malta with their Mirage F1s carrying Matra F1 rocket pods that had not been fired.

502 - Libya - Air Force Dassault Mirage F1 Aircraft Photo | Airplane-Pictures.net (http://www.airplane-pictures.net/image123028.html)

Other images on the following thread.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/443494-libyan-mirages-defect-malta.html

Reports in the media today have claims that opposition groups have shot down an attack helo and captured the crew.

Opposition forces have also been shown re-painting captured Hind helos with their own markings.

TJ

[kappa]

There have been reports since the start of Gadaffi forces using their aircraft and helos against the opposition. The media have shown evidence of this such as Hind helos firing their cannon and also at least one MiG-23 flying over opposition territory. One Su-22 Fitter is reported to have crashed after the crew ejected.

Thanks, I missed these reports.

[Jumping_Jack]

Cameron now talking about NFZ....:ugh:

[67Wing]

Now is probably the right time for the NATO Response Force to come out from under a stone and swing into action. This would leave just a few days for the usual nutters (mostly senior RN and RM officers) to rant about an independent UK carrier force before we see how it's done by the professional air arms. I read somewhere that a retired UK RM general thought that all that's needed for a Libyan air operation is a few Harriers (with no radar) and some helicopters from a through deck cruiser. Wally! Lord West's comments are similarly daft and you can almost see his tongue sicking out from his cheek.

The idea that this could be done from a single UK future carrier is fanciful and, to my ears, ridiculously amateurish. Any kind of military response, even if 'just' a NFZ needs to credible, sustainable over an indefinite period and demonstrate an overwhelming capability. I stick by the view that a comprehensive package of air power would be required including recce, AWACS, AAR, UAVs etc to do this properly.

If I were Gadaffi, I know what my greatest fear would be and it's not some future HMS Queen Hopeful tarting about off the coast.

The US Carrier force is something entirely different. The reason the first question of the US CinC at the start of a crisis is, "Where are the carriers?" is because they take a while to get moving if they aren't in place. The US President doesn't have to ask, "Where is the USAF?". He kind of assumes it's available and ready.

If we put all of our eggs into one or two future carriers, there is a significant risk that it would be stuck in dock, on the other side of the world or hopelessly short of aircraft, weapons, role equipment and logistics to react in time. If we could have 4 or 5 carriers and a rounded air package embarked then fine. We wouldn't ever get that, just some half-arsed capability that might or might not be responsive enough to react in time. It might be nice to have in some circumstances but it's just not the top priority when it come to controlling air for the joint effort.

My money goes on NATO mounting something from bases in southern Europe with some carriers in support and run from Lisbon.

[langleybaston]

with what? Harriers operating from Ark Royal. Overwatched by Nimrod?

Dave C., get real you silly (w@nker) PM.

Leave it to people with principles and assets, Dave.

[Pontius Navigator]

My money goes on NATO mounting something from bases in southern Europe with some carriers in support and run from Lisbon.

NATO re-oriented its threat axis about 20 years ago so at least it is facing the right direction even if its forces are still the wrong kind in the wrong place.

[Trim Stab]

Now is probably the right time for the NATO Response Force to come out from under a stone and swing into action.


And do what exactly? Imposing an NFZ would be viewed as an attack on Libyan sovereignity by Ghadaffi loyalists, and probably would not be welcome either by the opposition, or the wider maghreb. Even if there is some minor misuse of the loyalist Libyan Air Force against civilians (where are your sources TEEJ?), the situation has not yet got even close to a UNSC resolution. Russia would almost certainly veto any proposed resolution.

Or are you imagining that NATO would abandon its statutes and take pre-emptive action, even though there has not been an attack on a NATO member?

I agree with the rest of your post though - the idea that a carrier would be useful here is laughable. If the UNSC approved, or if NATO really did need to impose an NFZ over Libya through a direct threat to a member, there are plenty of unsinkable airfields nearby that can accommodate more capable aircraft, more quickly and less expensively than any solutions NATO could deploy from a carrier.

[Whenurhappy]

The NAC has been in emergency session and this Libyan business is exactly the sort of role for NRF. There is unlikely to be any push-back (except, perhaps, from Greece or Turkey because of the potential use of NRF in a Cyrpus debacle).

Oh, Trim Stab - what are these statutes that you talk about? Article V? Well, intervention in Kosovo? Was NATO attacked? OP ACTIVE ENDEAVOUR, OCEAN SHIELD etc...were Alliance members directly attacked? Continuing mission in Afghanistan? The emphasis of the recent NATO Strategic Concept is Art IV consultation - and then action, as required, based on concensus.

[draken55]

67 Wing

Thanks to HNS from the Government of Malta, on the doorstep of Libya, there has been no major issue with getting UK and other citizens out.

However, we should reflect that Libya and North Africa as a whole is hardly "out of theatre" for NATO/EU Armed Forces. The moot point is what would happen in future if political unrest was to emerge further away (e.g Nigeria?) and HNS support was not a given. That's why even after SDSR the decision to run with at least one carrier was confirmed. You seem to suggest we either need no carriers or as many as the US as only large numbers are viable!

Short of firm evidence that civilians are being killed by aircraft, I doubt that China and Russia would back the use of a NFZ because of the precedent it could set.

[67Wing]

I agree with you Trim Stab that a NFZ should be in order to achieve something tangible with measurable effects and a clear end state. The reality is that Air will be asked to do something to show resolve, piss off Gadaffi and give some hope to his opposition. The aims will be contradictory, confusing and different for each member of NATO. It's likely that the direction will be loosely worded and vague and refer to NFZ with little more clarity than that. NATO would be content just to get the show on the road.

[ghostnav]

Cannot exactly see this working - unless of course we do the talking and others do the flying!

[Cows getting bigger]

Don't we have a filing cabinet full of lessons learnt from the last western world vs. islamic dictator No Fly Zone?

I'm all for parking a few big ships off Tripoli. Do we have any big ships?

[67Wing]

I think carriers are great but not at any cost. The admirals don't seem to give a stuff about a balanced joint force just so long as they have a carrier.

[Geehovah]

The problem here is that you need somewhat more than 19 capital ships to defend 2 carriers even if all of them are operational. The other thing to add is that the first thing you need to impose a NFZ is an AD aeroplane. Best we take note before we trim the Typhoon force any further.

[draken55]

67 Wing

The 1997 and 2010 Defence Reviews both concluded that without
carrier(s) there might be no balanced joint forces for all the places of the world where our interests could be at threat. SDSR thought the real "out of theatre" risk would emerge post 2020. Recents events might suggest this analysis was flawed.

If we were only interested in defending the UK homeland we might need no carrier capability, AAR etc. We do as HMG believes the UK has a role to play on the world stage, one now being played out again over Libya. We need to be able to deal with such unexpected events as well as the more obvious threats. So far we have been lucky with this sudden and unexpected chain of events. If they are contained to North Africa we may remain so. Problem would be if they are not.:uhoh:

[kappa]

Tripoli, Libya (CNN) -- Even as Gadhafi sought to project confidence Monday, reports came in that a military jet bombed a military base in an area controlled by protesters….The base is near Ajdabiya, 90 miles south of Benghazi, a stronghold of government opponents...

CNN saw the military jet fly above and heard the sounds of explosions. Witnesses reported a bombing at the base. …But Libyan state television later denied any such bombing.

Pro-Gadhafi forces have tried to attack a radio station in Misrata, a city controlled by protesters, a witness said. A military chopper has tried to land a couple of times in the past three days with soldiers on board, but the opposition fired at the soldiers and kept them away, the witness said.

White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said Monday …the U.S. government is considering the possibility of imposing a no-fly zone over Libya. Pentagon spokesman ….said the United States is "repositioning" naval and air forces in the region to be prepared for any option that it may need to exercise.

[Wander00]

Do we have any ships?

[Trim Stab]

Oh, Trim Stab - what are these statutes that you talk about? Article V? Well, intervention in Kosovo? Was NATO attacked? OP ACTIVE ENDEAVOUR, OCEAN SHIELD etc...were Alliance members directly attacked? Continuing mission in Afghanistan? The emphasis of the recent NATO Strategic Concept is Art IV consultation - and then action, as required, based on concensus


I think Italy holds the key here. They are the NATO member with the most direct threat of destabilisation from a substantial degradation of the situation in Libya - but as yet Berlusconi has been notably silent, probably as he is too busy watching porno. I can't see NATO being able to take substantial action without clear support from Italy.

[Whenurhappy]

Oh, I think you can guarantee Italy's support on this one. They have detailed knowledge of Libya, both as a former colonial power, but more recently, in cooperation with the Libyan authorities, especially amongst the leathally smart Caribinieri.

The point I was making is that NATO can - and has - acted outside the mutual self-defence of Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty 1949.

[tempesta]

Dude, there's Lampedusa , the best carrier for that ops area.... :ok:

[Doctor Cruces]

Just goes to prove what a bunch of hopeless, d**kheads we have at the helm just now.

Lets do away with a shed load of aircraft, aircraft carriers, ships, tanks soldiers, sailors and airmen and the let's talk about EXTRA committments.

It has been said earlier to leave it to those with the principles and the resources.

I am told that the last person to enter Parliament with a principle and the means to carry it out was Guy Fawkes. Mind you, after what happened to him I'm not surprised we get what we have nowadays!

Doc C

[dead_pan]

Intrigued to know how NFZ RoE would deal with commercial flights inbound from say Niger or Chad.

Also, anyone know how sophisticated their air defence system is? Lots of triple-A for sure.

[Lono]

Also, anyone know how sophisticated their air defence system is? Lots of triple-A for sure.

Can't vouch for accuracy, but ...

IMINT & Analysis - The Libyan SAM Network (http://preview.tinyurl.com/6hmclzk)

[dead_pan]

Lets hope all of those Russian/Chinese/French techinicians have packed their bags and gone home...

[LS-4]

May the experiences from DENY FLIGHT be of any value in relation to a possible NFZ operation in Libya? ROE, communication, decision-making?

An incident which might be of interest happened on this day 17 years ago:

On 28 February 94, four NATO fighters shot down four fixed-wing aircraft violating the UN "No-Fly" zone. NATO Airborne Early Warning aircraft (NAEW) detected unknown tracks South of Banja Luka early that morning. Two NATO aircraft, U.S. Air Force F-16s, were vectored to the area and intercepted six GALEB/JASTREB aircraft. In accordance with the rules of engagement, two "land or exit the No-Fly Zone or be engaged" orders were issued which were ignored. While this was happening the violating aircraft dropped bombs. The NATO fighters engaged the planes, shooting down three of them. A second pair of NATO fighters, U.S. Air Force F-16s, arrived and shot down a fourth violator. The remaining two violators left the airspace of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

AFSOUTH Fact sheets (http://www.afsouth.nato.int/archives/operations/DenyFlight/DenyFlightFactSheet.htm)

Banja Luka incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banja_Luka_incident)

I also remember reading about some frustration in NATO due to problems with preventing unauthorised rotary wing activity in the Bosnian NFZ, with authorised RW flights (UN etc.) and the threat of blue-on-blue incidents (especially after the tragedy in Iraq in 1994) adding to the complexity of the mission.

I'm not sure if this carries enough relevance for the Libyan issue, though. Thoughts?

[haltonapp]

if a general election in North Africa is carried out using Kalashnikovs rather than the ballot box, why should we western nations get involved? No one came to our aid when the Normans carried out property transfer, with no compensation, and enslaved the population in 1066!

I just thought it was a very boring thread, lots of armchair generals spouting away!!!

[Phileas Fogg]

What are the basic requirements to enforce a NFZ ... a Nimrod or few per chance?

[1771 DELETE]

The NFZ will happen, the USS Enterprise is returning back through the Suez canal. With the proximity of friendly airfields, the carrier is hardly needed, just the determination and FJ.

[TEEEJ]

Trim Stab,

Have you not been watching the news? It doesn't make any difference if it is minor misuse - it is still misuse. Note that in my post it stated opposition. That opposition is made up of defecting Libyan forces personnel and civilians.

The point is that the majority of the International Community think that Gadaffi's position is untenable and that to prevent further blood shed he should go. The whole point of the NFZ would be to take away his capability to inflict mass casualties and make it clear that his regime is over. Even discussion and threat of military action could possibly influence Gadaffi to realise that the game is up? No doubt the pressure of military action is also being put on Gadaffi via the remaining diplomatic channels.

The situation is confused at the moment due to the ongoing evacuation of foreign nationals. Any direct military action or enforcement at this time is risky until the evacuation process is complete. With the evacuation of foreign nationals complete the easiest option, even by a Coalition of the willing, is to take Gadaffi's toys away from him. It wouldn't take much to JDAM/Paveway loyalist airfields and plink the remaining air force inventory.

Once the evacuation of foreign nationals is complete I can see things developing. Gaddafi has been on TV interview last night ranting about Al Qaeda being the opposition. In order to prevent Gadaffi from taking a last stand I can see a Coalition involved in taking his air force out with Loyalist runways destroyed and aircraft plinked. It is a lot easier than simply establishing a No Fly Zone on its own.

The WMD issue appears to be clear. After seeing what was about to happen to Saddam, Gadaffi back in 2003 came clean to the west about its WMD programme. Inspectors were allowed in and destruction was implemented by UN inspectors during 2004.

IAEA Praises Libya for Disarmament Efforts | Arms Control Association (http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2004_04/Libya)

At the same time, international efforts to dismantle Libya’s chemical weapons program are progressing. On March 19, inspectors from the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW)—the organization that verifies compliance with the Chemical Weapons Convention—verified Tripoli’s March 5 initial chemical weapons declaration. According to the OPCW, Libya declared “approximately 23 metric tonnes of mustard gas, 1,300 metric tonnes of precursor chemicals, …[an] inactivated chemical weapons production facility, …[and] two chemical weapons storage facilities.”

Between Feb. 27 and March 3, the OPCW also “verified… the complete destruction” of more than 3,500 unfilled bombs “designed to disperse chemical warfare agent,” according to organization press releases. The OPCW stated March 22 that it intends to verify Libya’s destruction of the remaining chemical agents.

IAEA Inspections in Libya Making Progress (http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/mediaadvisory/2004/medadvise200401.html)

BBC NEWS | Africa | 'No reward' for non-nuclear Libya (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6414387.stm)


TJ

[Phileas Fogg]

Oh My Gawd,

I hadn't appreciated Trim Stab was infected this thread aswell as the 'Congrats Herc' thread whereas he's p1ssed off the RAF are poaching his salary.

Come on Trim Stab, despite your operator being able to operate into disused airstrips how might your operator, B737, A320 or whatever, serve to enforce a NFZ?

You have to be desperately short of money because you're off your head mate!

[0497]

Looks like any intervention will escalate beyond a NFZ. I think some ground forces might be needed.

The US has a carrier and an amphib group moving to the area.

FT.com / Middle East & North Africa - West weighs military measures (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4df11f36-4111-11e0-bf62-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1FEW1tEFV)


West weighs military measures
By Daniel Dombey in Washington and Peter Spiegel in Brussels
Published: February 25 2011 19:10 | Last updated: February 25 2011 19:10

... Since rebel forces already control much of the coast and border regions, steps to safeguard ports, airports and safe zones could serve to protect them against Col Gaddafi’s forces.

... The White House has added it is looking at the “feasibility” of measures such as a no-fly zone. However, some officials note such a step could bring limited benefits. Libya’s air force is in poor condition, and much of it is in areas held by rebels. Two pilots defected to Malta this week rather than bomb civilians. By contrast, Col Gaddafi’s push to quash the rebellion largely depends on militias, troops commanded by his family members, and foreign mercenaries.

... He added that “Nato as such has no plans to intervene” and that any military action “should be based on a clear UN mandate”. Such a mandate would be hard to achieve, given China’s resistance at the UN Security Council to interventionist steps.

[Kitbag]

We need to plan it now says Dave. BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12598674)

[Earl of Rochester]

C'mon lads, saddle up!

Reports in that Brit Tornados and Typhoons will be deployed ex-Cyprus although I can't see why we couldn't use one of the southern Italian bases or even the US facility in Malta.

What a scumbag and what a relief it will be if he goes - I don't think Libyans even know what liberty feels like!

Good fighting boys.

Earl

[LS-4]

I think some ground forces might be needed.

I think it might be unwise to put too much confidence in air power alone, depending on the mission and its desired effects. Even an effective and successful NFZ operation including offensive measures against opposing air force and GBAD assets, eventually resulting in air supremacy (more or less), would perhaps be of limited value to the Libyan population given the threats on the ground.

Again I think the experiences from the Balkans and Iraq should be considered if a similar effort is to be made in Libya. I realise that an effectively enforced NFZ might be a lot better than no action at all, but can we settle with a limited effect against hostile ground forces doing a lot more damage than the air force?

[Phileas Fogg]

There aren't so many military air bases in Libya, I understand Benghazi/Benina airfield has already been put out of action, and watching TV today they're getting well organised in Benghazi recruiting and training up a military force to take the madman and his forces on.

If one thinks about it they didn't require international help when the Lockerbie bomber returned to Libya, they were happy enough to rub our faces in it then, some are asking for uinternational help now but it seems they're also preparing to sort the madman out for themselves.

I did have to smile though, there's a significant munitions stockpile near Ajdabiya, Gaddafi keeps sending the air force across to bomb it and the crews keep missing the target ..... One does have to ask how significant a NFZ might be as it seems the air force aren't taking their orders too seriously anyway?

[The B Word]

Trim Stab

Plenty of "non article 5" NATO action in the past (and present in Afghanistan), which is why they award stuff like this:

http://www.omsa.org/photopost/data/601/medium/25NATO_non-5.jpg

Who knows, if it is a NATO op, I might be able to wear this one this time around! :ok:

The B Word

[glad rag]

Just stop right there boyos, let's not get involved in another politico wankfest OK.

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

Glad Rag. Agree.

To the rest:

Never mind that there might be new and interesting opportunities to bomb people.

Just remember: These are events in a Foreign Country. The People of the Country will sort it out for themselves, or live with the consequences.

I repeat, Libya is a FOREIGN country, you know, like Afghanistan and Iraq.

The UK has sweet ZERO to do here.

Move along............FFS!:rolleyes:

[ghostnav]

After (or now even during) an operation, the military gets cut. So if we do get involved, and I hope we don't, then this will be like a suicide mission!

[TSR2Eagle]

Never mind the logistics of where a NFZ might be operated from, what about the fact the RAF top brass have been saying for sometime now that they've only just enough Typhoons to cover UK northern and southern QRA duties and Falklands air defence, so can't deploy Typhoon in the close air support role in Afghanistan (assuming it's ready for the role), let alone supporting a NFZ...

Headmaster Cameron states that a NFZ would be for humanitarian reasons. So why did his heroine The Iron Lady not adopt the same stance over the likes of Mugabe, etc, etc? The hypocrisy and double-standards adpoted by our minority elected, inexperienced and point-scoring politicians is unbelievable if it weren't so true.

Does the PM, the Chief of the Air Staff, or their 'advisors' really know what they're doing?

[david parry]

Two US warships, the USS Kearsarge and USS Ponce, enter the Suez Canal en route for the Mediterranean, after orders from Defence Secretary Robert Gates that they should move closer to Libya

[TSR2Eagle]

Not forgetting the 175 aircraft permanently assigned to the US Navy's Sixth Fleet in the Med, which would make any deployment by the RAF to enforce a NFZ somewhat insiginificant...

[just another jocky]

Not forgetting the 175 aircraft permanently assigned to the US Navy's Sixth Fleet in the Med, which would make any deployment by the RAF to enforce a NFZ somewhat insiginificant...

Any British offering is likely to seem insignificant militarily when compared to the scale of the US forces, but politically, that's another thing.

We do also offer certain niche capabilities and reputations, mind you. ;)

[langleybaston]

is there really a USS Ponce?

The mind boggles ...... is it a floating bath and brothel unit, or do we have a different usage?

Much as faggots?

Baflled of Baston

[0497]

The USN has an airbase, NAS Sigonella roughly 300nm from Tripoli and 400nm from Benghazi. (I see parked C-17s, C-135 tankers and P3 Orions: NAS Sigonella- Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=37.403165,14.927931&spn=0.031364,0.097075&t=h&z=14))

Pentagon thoughts: (looks like bombs have to be dropped for a NFZ to done properly)

Pentagon hesitant on no-fly zone over Libya - Wash Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/01/AR2011030105317_pf.html)


.... [Gates] "We also have to think about frankly the use of the U.S. military in another country in the Middle East," he told reporters at a news conference. "So we are sensitive about all these things."

.... Gen. James N. Mattis, the head of U.S. Central Command, told a Senate panel that it would be necessary to preemptively attack Libyan air-defense batteries and installations to ensure that they could not shoot down U.S. or NATO planes.

[full quote] “My military opinion is, sir, it would be challenging. You would have to remove the air defense capability, in order to establish the no-fly zone. So it — no illusions here, it would be a military operation. It wouldn’t simply be telling people not to fly airplanes."

Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, echoed Mattis's warning about preemptive strikes on Libyan targets. ...

[0497]

(google news is great)

Cameron retreats from Libya no-fly plan after US shows caution | World news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/mar/02/cameron-retreats-no-fly-plan-libya)

Cameron retreats from Libya no-fly plan after US shows caution
Wednesday 2 March 2011

Britain has backtracked from its belligerent military stance over Libya after the Obama administration publicly distanced itself from David Cameron's suggestion that Nato should establish a no-fly zone over the country and that rebel forces should be armed.

As senior British military sources expressed concern that Downing Street appeared to be overlooking the dangers of being sucked into a long and potentially dangerous operation, the prime minister said Britain would go no further than contacting the rebel forces at this stage.

....

[Winchweight]

Maybe we should establish a NFZ over Charlie Sheen too...


Charlie Sheen v Muammar Gaddafi: whose line is it anyway? | World news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/quiz/2011/mar/01/muammar-gaddafi-charlie-sheen-quiz)

[Biggus]

First of all let me state that I personally am not advocating a NFZ in Libya.

However, if various western powers elect to go down that route I have a sneaking suspicion that by the time they have all got their ducks in a row it will already be over in Libya one way or another.







Having said that - I note that somebody said the USS Enterprise was on the way. It will certainly all be over when the Enterprise arrives - there is no way that Libya will be able to hold out against phasers and photon torpedoes!! :)

[Caspian237]

Is the West backing itself into a corner here? If there is no intervention of any sort and Gaddafi puts down the uprising then is it really going to be business as usual with the Libyan regime?

Libyan oil is an important resouce for Europe but after all that has been said and done how can any western government in good conscience consider dealing with Gaddafi in the future, particulary when they are now calling for action in the international criminal court?

EDIT- Of course good conscience isn't necessarily a requisite for being an elected member of government and nor is an aversion to hypocracy.

[charliemac]

Ponce - second city of Puerto Rico and a dodgy place to boot. As is this whole unsanctioned potential intervention. Do we never learn?

[TSR2Eagle]

Yes, USS Ponce (LPD-15) is an amphibious transport dock vessel, named after the Spanish explorer Juan Ponce de Leon.

The word 'ponce' does not have the same meaning in the US as it does in English.

[Canadian WokkaDoctor]

Is the West backing itself into a corner here? If there is no intervention of any sort and Gaddafi puts down the uprising then is it really going to be business as usual with the Libyan regime?



I agree with this comment. I'd add that if a NFZ is imposed over Libya, aren't we (the West) opening ourselves up to calls from certain middle eastern countries to impose similar measures the next time the IAF goes to town in Gaza/Lebanon; I'd like to see the RAF enforce that one!

Is this "almost" civil war anything to do with the UK? I'd have thought that Gadhafi's arms shipments to the IRA in the 80's would have been cause for the UK to take action against him, but since then he managed to get into the West's good books, the UK even released a convicted murderer into Libyan "custody" and BP was trying to get oil contracts from the Libyan Government (I'm sure that the two events are not connected though). Now its good to hate Gadhafi again. Fickle thing world politics.

Anyhow, that all said and if my military history doesn't fail me, I seem to remember that the last UK venture in a North African country didn't turn out too well. Maybe someone should float the idea of subcontracting the NFZ to a local organisation that can point to recent success in/over several North African nations - the IAF!

Failing that, maybe give the NFZ task to the Reds, they could put on a good show, fly the flag for Air Command's PR dept and there would be no need to come up with new ROE, because lets face it, no-one in UK government actually wants to start shooting down Libyan aircraft, do they?

Does anyone know if Trim Stab is an ex Harrier mate, because that whine sure is familiar!

Lastly, well done to all the boys and girls who went in to rescue the expats. The CAF tried recently, but we made the mistake of asking to be let in!

CWD

[glad rag]

Yes, USS Ponce (LPD-15) is an amphibious transport dock vessel, named after the Spanish explorer Juan Ponce de Leon.Surely USS de Leon not Ponce!

Must be VERY interesting come the run ashores..........

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQBUxLIk-I8HaWxyH8GCaYUamrlyG803A7TmNUTOR_cN9xoP1f_mg

"Hey any one from Ponce here...ANY PONCES"

[just another jocky]

Having just watched Ross Kemp's new program, covering the atrocities in the 10-year war in Congo, I'd question our priorities as human beings if we do this and yet do nothing (UN presence appears to be almost pointless) about the horrors committed in Congo.

I know, it's realpolitik. Oil, and money and the vote, which drives our political masters to make the decisions they do. But for once, I wish we would do it better.

Off topic......apologies, but that program shocked me.

[TSR2Eagle]

I agree with you 'just another jocky', and not just about the Congo - what about Zimbabwe, etc, etc? - but I doubt very much we will ever see politicians doing something for the right reasons. Headmaster Cameron must think the UK voter is an ignorant idiot not to see through his claim that to put in place a NFZ over Libya is for humanitarian reasons.

Too much to expect a politician to ever speak honestly...

(Not entirely off-topic, just broadening the debate!)

[dead_pan]

Interesting twist on the news this evening that the Arab League may implement their own NFZ. So, can we expect elements of the Saudi and Syrian air forces to take up station over the country?

[TSR2Eagle]

With what's been going on in recent weeks across Northern Africa I'm not sure what clout the Arab League have anymore. My fear is that intervention from this quarter - not entirely 100% impartial - could lead to wider disruption and possible civil war...

[TEEEJ]

The Arab League NFZ could be the solution. Support could be supplied by NATO forces such as tankers, AWACS while the Arab state fighter aircraft conduct the air patrols. The Saudi's could assist with their AWACS and tankers with the fighters operating out of the likes of Egypt, Algeria and Tunisia.

TJ

[0497]

Interesting twist on the news this evening that the Arab League may implement their own NFZ. So, can we expect elements of the Saudi and Syrian air forces to take up station over the country?


Saudis and Syrians are symbols of political oppression. Rebels on the ground are not going to like it, they'll be seen as trying to preserve the status quo.

[muppetofthenorth]

Saudis and Syrians are symbols of political oppression. Rebels on the ground are not going to like it, they'll be seen as trying to preserve the status quo.

But British and American a/c couldn't possibly be seen as imperialistic and only in it for a material gain...?

[TEEEJ]

Libyan Air Force Su-24 Fencer bombing in the following video.

BBC News - Libyan air force bombs arms dump in Ajdabiya (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12619739)

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/8/0/9/1349908.jpg

TJ

[TSR2Eagle]

US Pentagon official was quoted on Radio 4 this morning saying, and I paraphase, that even a fully complemented Nimitz class carrier (90 aircraft) wouldn't be enough to maintain a NFZ over Libya. Where does this leave Headmaster Cameron and his 'initiative'?

[StopStart]

Hmmmm...... :suspect:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/06QU0mh5dh1Fr/610x.jpg

[dead_pan]

Nice pic - probably grabbed from a video, unless the photographer got a very fast trigger finger.

The best he'll probably do with that is put the pilots off their aim - not much chance hitting anything with a Grail unless the operator is particularly clued up.

[MRAF]

Quote:
The Threat? Presumably there are more of those Mirage Jets?
Bombers : 6 TU-22A/U Blinder.
Fighter/Ground Attack : 50 Mig-21MF Fishbed, 75 MiG-23B/ML Flogger, 60 Mig-25 Foxbat, 15 Mirage F1-ED, 6 Mirage F1-BD, 40 MIG 23BN Flogger, 15 Mig 23-U Flogger, 30 Mirage 5D/DE, 14 Mirage 5DD, 14 Mirage F1-AD, 45 SU-20/22 Fitter.
Counterinsurgency: 24 Jastreb J-1E.
Reconnaissance: 5 Mirage 5DR, 7 Mig 25-R Foxbat.
Strike and multi-role aircraft : 12 SU-24MK Fencer, 40 SU-22M-3 Fitter, 10 MIG-25R/U Foxbat, 2 TU-22U Blinder.


???

I think you will find this is VERY VERY OLD data and a massive exaggeration of what they have. BLINDERs havnt flown for years, numbers are the original orders, most from 70s 80s. With accidents, losses, unservicibility, obsolete airframes, lack of spares etc...oh and captures by Rebels, I would say they are down to a fraction of this.

Handful of FENCERS, even less M F1s, couple of dozen FITTERS, couple of dozen FLOGGERS, maybe a few FISHBED and at an outside push a couple of FOXBATS... but i'd be suprised.

[StopStart]

Very true d_p, just thought it was nice pic! Given the clarity I suspect it was a lucky shot by a stills photographer.

Whilst the capabilities of the -7 are limited so too are the abilities and capabilities PF those he's trying to bring down...

[Biggus]

MRAF,

You mean a bit like reading what the strength of the RAF is on paper - and then seeing what it can actually put in the air..... :{







Stoppers - that SAMs not going very far anyway, it's about to get the tailfin stuck in those telephone wires.... ;)



You see, it's all about perspective!

[Low Flier]

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01838/mattb02032011_1838191a.gif

[0497]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/03/02/world/africa/20110303_LIBYA-slide-PZ8G/20110303_LIBYA-slide-PZ8G-jumbo.jpg

Scenes From Libya - Photographs - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/world/africa/2011-libya-slide-show.html?ref=africa#9)
"A member of the opposition prayed for safety as he stood guard near the Mediterranean Sea in Benghazi. He held a surface-to-air missile launcher to protect the rebels from incoming planes."

[engineer(retard)]

Could be from Blackpool and aimed at Warton

[TSR2Eagle]

It's actually a very good photo - but not as I remember my childhood days along the promenade at Hastings!

By the way, is the SAM shown merely point-and-shoot or more sophisticated in terms of finding the target?

[TSR2Eagle]

engineer(retard) wrote;
Could be from Blackpool and aimed at Warton

If so, he's going to miss. Should be aiming in the direction of the cameraman!

[dead_pan]

Caption:

"Unfortunately for the seagull, Ahmed has the last laugh over his stolen ice cream"

[SWBKCB]

BBC News - Libya TV shows captured Dutch navy helicopter crew (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12645675)

[Phil_R]

is the SAM shown merely point-and-shoot or more sophisticated in terms of finding the target?

(Dons spotter hat)

Looks to me like a 9К32 “Cтрела-2” (Strela-2, Arrow), known to the professional military denizens of this forum as an SA-7 Grail.

So it's a heat-seeking missile designed in the late 60s. So not a very good one. You're theoretically supposed to aim ahead of the target to reduce the horrible inefficiency of the course the thing will fly in order to hit it. More or less comprehensive operator's instructions are available on Wikipedia, hilariously.

[0497]

(Dons spotter hat)

Looks to me like a 9К32 “Cтрела-2” (Strela-2, Arrow), known to the professional military denizens of this forum as an SA-7 Grail.


Now we have to worry about the looted MANPADS hitting the black market.

The Perils of Libya's Loose Arms - NYTimes.com (http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/04/the-perils-of-libyas-loose-arms/?partner=rss&emc=rss)
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/04/world/africa/04weapons.html
Experts Fear Looted Libyan Arms May Find Way to Terrorists
By C. J. CHIVERS
Published: March 3, 2011

PS: Also a ZPU-4 - quad 14.5mm heavy machine guns in the background

[NutLoose]

Now if that was the UK he would have a sawn off broom handle on his shoulders with CPX Strela taped to the side of it...... whilst standing in a oblong of lashing tape pegged to the ground marked CPX trench....

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Quote:
engineer(retard) wrote;
Could be from Blackpool and aimed at Warton
If so, he's going to miss. Should be aiming in the direction of the cameraman!



Sorry both wrong. He would damage Southport pointing towards the cameraman.Needs to move through 180degrees.
For the record I believe a NFZ to be foolish and we don't have the assets anyway.

[mlc]

Well, somebody has been reading the instructions. One Libyan AF aircraft was shot down today.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

What's the details mic? We know of the claim for 28th Feb but not heard of one today.

[Lono]

What's the details mic? We know of the claim for 28th Feb but not heard of one today.

Libyan rebels show off downed plane, dead fliers | Agricultural Commodities | Reuters (http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFWEA675320110305)

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Thanks for the update Lono. Notwithstanding, would a NFZ made any difference?

[SRENNAPS]

Could be from Blackpool and aimed at Warton

Brilliant mate made me chuckle.

But more seriously:

BBC News - Saudi Arabia imposes ban on all protests (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12656744)

So will we consider a NFZ on this country or are they still allowed to oppress their people without fear of intervention from the UK and USA.

[Low Flier]

He may be a son of a bitch, but he's he's our son of a bitch.


That's been the US foreign policy for at least half a century.

It worked for Mubarak for 40 years. It didn't apply to to Gaddafi for any of 40 years because he wasn't bribable and didn't respond well to threats.

[NutLoose]

Showing the remains of the crew on the news, not cool, they will have families :(

Anyone else not think telling Gaddafi and Co they are going to be held accountable for war crimes is a bad move ? no one will be able to enforce that if they hold the country, so all it does is make them use more means to try and do that................

[Wrathmonk]

So, exactly which side are we meant to be protecting with this proposed NFZ ....

BBC News - 'No comment' from MoD over SAS men captured in Libya (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12658054)

[TEEEJ]

Ident of the shot down aircraft. Su-24 Fencer.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/sites/default/files/imagecache/blogpostFeaturedImage/images/downedjet.jpg

TJ

[GreenKnight121]

Eight SAS men in undercover mission are seized in Libya - by the rebel forces they went to help | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1363424/Eight-SAS-men-undercover-mission-seized-Libya--rebel-forces-went-help.html)

8 SAS and UK diplomat 'detained' in Libya by rebel forces...
Details are slowly emerging about the incident on Sky news, The Sunday Times has an article on their website but you need a subscription to read it. Oh dear what a massive balls up!

"An eight-man SAS team was being held by Libyan rebel forces last night after being captured as they accompanied a junior British diplomat on an undercover mission which ended in embarrassment.
The elite troops had been escorting the diplomat through rebel-held territory in the east of Libya as he tried to make contact with opponents of Colonel Gaddafi.

The diplomat had intended to pave the way for a more senior British official to establish diplomatic relations with rebel forces. But last night the young Foreign Office employee and his armed SAS escorts were locked up inside a military base in Benghazi, the largest city held by opponents of Col Gaddafi.

It is understood the SAS incursion into rebel-held territory infuriated opposition politicians, one of whom told them to warn David Cameron’s Government that it should recognise the opposition as Libya’s legitimate leaders before attempting to open negotiations.

Sources admitted last night that there was huge embarrassment in Whitehall that the SAS mission had backfired.

But there was confidence that the SAS team and the diplomat would be released unharmed within 24 hours after the rebels had made their point. There were no plans last night for a second SAS team to be sent in to secure the release of their colleagues." Yeah... Some Foreign office drones decided to play at "Gertrude Bell, T. E. Lawrence, and the ignorant Arabs", and send off a junior minion with a few "dirty tricks blokes" to whisper in the ears of the desert tribesmen.... after all, it worked in 1917-19, why shouldn't it work in 2011?

And the college-educated, internet-savvy, modern leaders of the revolt slapped them in a cell, and called up Hague to tell him in no uncertain terms that the days of Imperialist Vaziers pulling the strings of wandering tribesmen were over... and if he wanted the ear of the Libyan rebels he had bloody well better formally recognize them in front of the UN as the legitimate government of Libya first!

[Wrathmonk]

Not sure the point you're making there GreenKnight. After all it's no different from supporting the Mujhadeen in the war against the Russians or encouraging the marsh Arabns to rise up against Saddam (or indeed supporting any opposition party for that matter!).

Ultimately, IMHO, the rebels are the ones to have shot themselves in the foot - a country as generous with it's overseas aid as UK is not one to pi55 off (however much we belittle oursleves on boards such as these). Oil or no oil (the production of which I assume is slowly grinding to a halt now that the expats from countires various have got the hell out of dodge;)) should they succeed in overthrowing the current regime (which as every day goes by, again IMHO, seems more and more unlikely) they are going to need a lot of help in establishing law and order again (and not just financial).

[MarkJJ]

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01839/matt04032011_1839913a.jpg

[A2QFI]

It is now reported that whole escepade was personally authorised by W Hague. Having arrived by night with weapons, comms kit and multi-identity passports they said they were looking for a hotel! They are now on their way, allegedly minus all their kit including the helicopter!

[dead_pan]

Hague may have authorised the operation but I doubt if he actually planned it. Those 'in the know' should have known better.

[Biggus]

If the new government is to learn the valuable lesson, that all military operations come with risks attached, I for one would rather they learned it in a no loss of life, "egg on face", type scenario then in some operation to which thousands of troops are committed, large loss of life occurs, and it takes us 10 years to extricate ourselves afterwards!

[A2QFI]

Of course he didn't plan it, but, as a diplomat and the authorising person I would have thought he might have asked for some details as to how much poo might result if it didn't work out! Answer - a lot and it didn't!

[airpolice]

But it only applies to UK forces.

By chopping all the bits that are needed to support a NoFly zone in Libya and making all the rest of the Boys & Girls too busy to help out, the MOD have ensured there will be no (British Military) flying going on.

So that's a positive spin on it.

Zero casualties. Zero cost. Zero room to move if something else comes along.

[dead_pan]

he might have asked for some details as to how much poo might result if it didn't work out


One would have thought that those in charge of the operation would have been forthcoming with such information. My point was that Hague should only cop a share of the blame, not all of it.

[A2QFI]

The ancient and honourable concept of the man at the top, who authorises some action, carrying the can when/if it goes wrong is obviously long gone! I bet he'd have been quick enough in the queue from some bauble or honour if it had gone well, which it didn't. PS Who's got the helicopter and what is that worth?

[Trim Stab]

I would have thought he might have asked for some details as to how much poo might result if it didn't work out! Answer - a lot and it didn't!


SIS would have planned the operation, but would have made a "submission" to the FS for his authorisation. The submission details in a one or two page letter the intelligence to be gained, a brief outline of the plan, and a risk assessment. SIS don't make submissions unless they are fairly sure the FS will authorise it - so the "intelligence to be gained" argument has to substantially outweigh the risk.

The FS usually just signs off the submission - he would never get involved in requesting further detail.

[glad rag]

CBBC just ripping the :mad: out of the SAS just now on the kids TV newsround.

:mad:

[dead_pan]

PS Who's got the helicopter and what is that worth?


Its not one of those Mk6's is it? The paint's hardly had time to dry.

[diginagain]

PS Who's got the helicopter and what is that worth?

If it's a Pusser's Lynx they'll be hard-pushed to get shot of it.

[Thelma Viaduct]

Hague may have authorised the operation but I doubt if he actually planned it.The wet lipped trombone playing Buffoon planned it, that's why it failed.

The UK must be a right laughing stock around the world.

You've got Hague trying to give it the big one with his (put on) deep serious voice, when really everyone is just imagining him as a 7 year old kid in shorts skipping off to school, the fecking bell end.

No one gives a flying what the UK 'govern'ment thinks, even people in the UK don't care what they think, why would a bunch of ethnics blatting off AKs ???


edit1: Nice pic of the SU btw

edit2: The porridge w0g is incorrect, you would need a bearing of approx 135 deg to hit Warton from Blackpool tower. :ok:

[Phileas Fogg]

I did have to laugh yesterday afternoon when Haig, vainly, attempted to explain that, to the effect, this had been a routine/customary diplomatic welcoming and/or calling upon the regime in and around Benghazi.

The opposition voiced that if new neighbours moved in to Haig's street would he introduce himself by ringing the doorbell or climbing over the back fence during the middle of the night!!!!

Utter bullsh1t on the part of Haig, if had they nothing to hide then they could have arrived in to Benghazi harbour by RN warship ... are the UK government on drugs whilst actually believing we believe their bullsh1t?

[0497]

Military intervention is gathering steam. Libya looks headed towards a stalemate, but everyone wants Gaddafi to go.

USAF AWACS already deployed. Appears its going to be like Afghanistan in late-2001: irregulars supported by air.

America's secret plan to arm Libya's rebels - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/americas-secret-plan-to-arm-libyas-rebels-2234227.html)

New Warnings From Obama as Qaddafi Forces Attack Again - NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/08/world/africa/08libya.html)

US, allies edge toward military options for Libya - washingtonpost.com (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/07/AR2011030701888.html)

[Toddington Ted]

Haig? Wasn't he a First World War Army chap?

[67Wing]

The terrible thing is that the UK is likely to be as arrogant as ever telling everyone how it should be done but when it comes to actually doing anything there will be very little in our cupboard. I wonder how long it will take us to learn that no one will be interested in what we have to say if there we cannot back it up with generating Forces.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

I would urge caution, sounds like those pesky Libyans have got a secret weapon.

BBC just reported that they carried out fresh air strikes

Wonder how much BAe sold them for?

:}

[Biggus]

I wouldn't worry too much, "fresh air" is not a very deadly weapon to be struck with....

[airsound]

Thoughtful PPruners might be interested in tonight's 'Moral Maze' on BBC Radio 4. Michael Buerk chairs a debate about whether or not to intervene in Libya, and what - if anything - Britain should do.

It's after the 2000 news, tonight 9 March, repeated 2215 on 12 March, or on BBC iPlayer, after the first broadcast.
BBC iPlayer - iPlayer Radio Home (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/radio)

airsound

[pasir]

... With doubts expressed that the UK/RAF today are not sufficiently equiped to mount any effective Libyan NFZ brings to mind a problem facing Harris when deciding to mount the first mass attack upon Germany with a One-Thousand Bomber Raid - Whereby it was said he scoured Training and Maintenance units for semi obsolescent aircraft to make up the numbers - Resulting in jocular chatter amongst returning aircrew of much avoidance of collisions over Cologne (or wherever) as Tiger Moths and Ansons jostled for position !

...

[grandfer]

An interesting little comment on the BBC TV news at 6pm today was that the "No Fly Zone" could be patrolled by RAF Typhoons & Tornado F.3s(?) Have the F.3s been thrown a little life-line ? :confused::confused:

[TEEEJ]

A2QFI wrote

Who's got the helicopter and what is that worth?

The helicopter story was a dodgy bit of reporting from the BBC Security Correspondent, Frank Gardner? Anti-Gaddafi personnel stated during interviews that the helicopter dropped the team off and then flew away. Although it appears that some of them went home minus their Calvin Klein underwear!

Interviews from the location where they landed on the following video.

Video link edited out.

Original You Tube link is now set to private and is no longer available. Apologies.

TJ

[Haart]

My apologies if this subject has been broached already; I may have overlooked this particular angle in my cursory search of other threads. I thought there were a few interesting ideas on a potential Libyan NFZ but here is a different angle.

Could a potential Libyan NFZ not be more effectively policed by naval vessels? Given the potency of current AD vessels (particularly Aegis, I am unsure if T45 in operational service) with sophisticated air defence radar and long range anti-aircraft missiles, a no fly zone could potentially be imposed and be 'passively' enforced by off shore naval units in lieu of the widely discussed air assets. This would have the primary benefit of potentially minimising intrusive outside offensive action against the Libyan Integrated Air Defence System (C3, SAMs, radar) that would probably be a precondition for the enforcement of a NFZ. Any overt offensive action against Gaddafi's regime would in all likelihood be spun by the government as an instance of US 'shock and awe' against an Arab country with the potential risk of dividing any united front by anti-Gaddafi countries. Further, sea-based air defence would minimise the risk of any allied personnel falling into the control of the Libyan regime by minimising our exposure to hostile Libyan action.
The geographic conditions are ideal insofar as the populated and contested areas are within a slim littoral strip that would be dominated by seaward assets. Although the lack of an 'air umbrella' would keep outside support for the anti-Gaddafi Libyan forces largely covert, AD vessels would achieve the same effect of denying Libyan air power freedom of manoeuvre. Further, naval vessels would provide less intensive round-the-clock anti-air capability than the limited endurance air forces flying from a great distance. Some air assets should be involved for instance, a more complete air picture could probably be obtained with the benefit of AWACs.
Of course, I would caveat my argument with the presumption that a no fly zone would only provide exactly that. The NFZ would probably not, in and of itself, defeat Gaddafi nor permit the anti-Gaddafi forces to succeed, all things being even. Indeed, as has been pointed out elsewhere, the presence of a no fly zone did not prevent the Srebrenica massacre and allied resolve would be tested by the temptation to take more active measures should defeat of anti-Gaddafi forces loom.

But as a means of achieving a specific aim, could an Aegis Class cruiser or a T-42 be of greater utility than a F-15 or Typhoon?

[Jumping_Jack]

OK Arab League....crack on, you have the hardware, sort yourselves out....:ok:

[Dan Gerous]

Well it would seem that the Arab League have learnt to adopt the western ideals we so desperately want to introduce in the Arab world. Sit around and talk a lot, fob it of to the UN, and hope any conflict resolves itself one way or the other, before anybody has to actually do anything.

[Earl of Rochester]

I just wanted to make this important observation:

Has anyone noticed how the image of Gadaffi on Libya's currency bears a resemblance to Mr Burns from the Simpsons?

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/03/13/weekinreview/BOWLEY/BOWLEY-articleLarge.jpg

Next question: If we do get stuck in down in Lib, at what point do you think UK helicopters would enter Libya and what would be their initial roles?

It is right to assume that any foreign force aiming to assist the resistance would want to deploy some sort of cover over strategic resistance locations to protect them?

Earl

[Unchecked]

There won't be any helicopters going in, because if they did we'd have to buy more.

And Mr Cameron doesn't want to do that.

[Sunk at Narvik]

In his Telegraph interview at the weekend Hague indirectly described Osborne as one of the two hawkish "neo cons" in the cabinet arguing for military intervention (the other being Gove).

I do wonder if Osborne makes the connection between posturing and the ability to deliver.

[Capt P U G Wash]

Haart, in a word: No.

No Fly zones are always more complex than they sound. For example, what would a T45 do if the enemy decided to stay on the ground and roll up the rebels with tanks. Also, how do you deter or coerce when your only option is to vapourise or ignore.

Bottom line is a shooter at range is a very blunt instrument and easily negated or foiled. Form a legal basis it would also be difficult to prove a self defence linkage. Better to let the T45 do what it was designed to do and protect the fleet.

[FB11]

Capt P U G Wash,

If the enemy decided to stay on the ground then they would not be flying in the zone (because of the T45?)....hang on a minute...a No Fly Zone. So it might just work then.

What exactly does an aircraft do to coerce more than either shoot down or ignore? Fly menacingly past and jesticulate wildly? Or a quick air display?

What self defence linkage would be needed in a NFZ? If sanctioned, it's a no fly zone. If it flies and isn't an airliner, it gets taken out of the sky. Did I miss something with a NFZ being 'more complicated' than that? If the ROE is granted, a NFZ isn't a self defence issue.

Well rehearsed and practiced during other conflicts such as the Balkans and from 1991 onwards until 2003 in Iraq - aircraft that came offshore would be warned and ultimately engaged.

But you're right, just leave that darn Navy ship to do Navy things as opposed to providing a persistent, high fidelity, AD capability while we run expensive, non-persistent CAP from Cyprus. Assuming they let us do combat ops from there.

[Easy Street]

But you're right, just leave that darn Navy ship to do Navy things as opposed to providing a persistent, high fidelity, AD capability while we run expensive, non-persistent CAP from Cyprus. Assuming they let us do combat ops from there.


The clue's in the name - Sovereign Base Area. We can do what we like from Akrotiri, no need to go crawling to the Cypriot government.

I agree with your points about sea-based air defence being useful when most of the battle is fought close to the coast, though.

[FB11]

Easy Street,

If you have a copy of the Cyprus/UK MOU then I defer to you. (I thought we were limited to support ops from there.)

Anyway, the boys would get some good tanking practice on the 2000nm round trip from AKR to Tripoli.

[Lima Juliet]

Earl of Rochester

Either my recce skills aren't what they used to be or...?

http://www.cio.com/images/content/articles/body/2008/10/Mr_Burns_150x176.jpg

[Captain Radar....]

I know I know! The Reds are off to Cyprus this week. Send 'em to Benghazi instead! NFZ enforced by NOTAM for miles around when they go off and practice! Get the Thunderbirds in to to shut the airspace down for hours on end on the other shift and we've cracked it. Display work up box ticked, NFZ enforced without bombing anything, loads of tanker hours saved and good Hawk sales pitch for when new regime comes in. Might get a few complaints from the team about the noisy hotel but you can't have everything........................

[Capt P U G Wash]

FB11, you are clearly from the school of the Tripwire Strategy - escalation and de-escalation obviously not part of your game plan. Perhaps while you are at it you would like to defend UK airspace by blasting everything that files out of the sky! But I can't fault you for trying to find a role for the most expensive warship we have ever built without a Carrier Group to defend!

...and while we are on the subject, are you suggesting that we will never need AD capable aircraft to defend the carrier group - now that would be a revelation for the FAA agenda! We could send T45 to defend the Falklands and everyone else can come home, and we can stop using the islands as a reason to argue for the Carrier. Now that is an argument worth pursuing, but maybe in a different forum.

[FB11]

Capt P,

Managing to both avoid answering a question and making 2+2 = 5 in the same reply. Well done.

NFZ (Capt P avoiding the question)

The last I heard of it, the UK isn't a No Fly Zone. We don't have ground attack aircraft getting airborne and travelling at low level for minutes few to bomb the people. But putting your apples and oranges example aside for a moment, do spell out clearly what options there are in a No Fly Zone beyond doing nothing or shooting the aircraft down. Nice and clearly so we can assess them and relate them to the Iraqi NFZ ROE and how a coalition aircraft could do something different (than nothing or shoot down) to a Libyan attack aircraft on the 12 minute transit to dropping a bunch of HE on the rebels.

T45 (Capt P making 2+2=5)

Where, at any stage in my post, did I say that a T45 would replace AD aircraft or that it wouldn't be required to defend the Fleet? My response was purely because you decided that you are now the maritime AD expert who answered Haart's quite sensible discussion point about maritime AD with a straight 'no.' Make a bold statement like that and be prepared to get an alternative view that exposes your prejudices and superficial understanding of the issues Haart was trying to discuss.

Your comment about the Falklands is a tiny bit childish - the deterrent effect provided by land, sea and air platforms provides a range of capabilities that makes the whole package a deterrent. Where did you make the leap that I was suggesting a T45 could allow Typhoon to go home?

Thank you for demonstrating your light blue hysteria about anything that might challenge the primacy of aircraft in the policing a NFZ.

[tonker]

The T45 is currently equipped with no missles whatsoever. Its only weapon apart from the helicopter is its Vickers gun and a couple of slaved 20mm guns.

No Phalanx either so you don't want to park to close to shore to fire the non existent Aster 30 or whatever it eventually ends up with!

[dead_pan]

Perhaps we can bluff it out and hope Gaddafi doesn't get wind of the fact it doesn't have any missiles? The Internet's off in Libya the last I heard, so he won't know anything.

I thought you were talking about sending our Hawk fleet to enforce the NFZ.

[FB11]

Tonker,

Thanks for that.

The initial discussion from Haart was "...Could a potential Libyan NFZ not be more effectively policed by naval vessels? Given the potency of current AD vessels (particularly Aegis, I am unsure if T45 in operational service) with sophisticated air defence radar and long range anti-aircraft missiles..."

You are correct that T45 is not yet declared IOC but it wasn't the point of the discussion. It does somewhat detract from the good discussion points raised by Haart.

After several successful firings of ASTER the RN could have rushed to grab headlines and declared a capability for T45 now. But they didn't because that would be ridiculous and clearly designed to satisfy those who would throw spears until IOC is declared.

After all, whoever would declare a capability IOC when there was no actual ability to deploy such a capability because it wasn't really at IOC?

[Heathrow Harry]

Yea, but all the talk of "IOC's", "gateways" etc are MoD speak for peacetime conditions with development programmes stretched over years

if there is a war on all that guff goes out the window

We all know that in the Falklands and both Gulf Wars kit was obtained, scabbed onto aircraft and ships and in action in a weeks if not days

it then took 3-4 years to get all the paperwork sorted but so what?

[airpolice]

I think lots of posters here are misisng the chnace to debate a salient issue, which is:


Should UN/NATO/UK any other buhger even be considering a no fly zone?

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of (Catholic suppression and English occupation) prime movers in "The Troubles" how would we all (The Royal Air Force at the time) have reacted if some other sovereign state had imposed a no fly zone in Northern Ireland when the RAF and Army were taske dwith supporting the RUC in "peace kkeeping" work in NI?

Gadaffi is trying run HIS country, subject to an uprisng (the Peasants are revolting) which he is trying to stop. Say what you like about Saddam, the streets of Iraq were safer to walk (for some) before the entire country was plagued by IEDs and air dstrikes.


Let's look at Tianamen Square. Pity the poor shopkeeper who is going out of business due to the thousands of stundents camped on his doorstep. Why should Jimmy Grocer be out of pocket because the next generation of thinkers are pissed off?

We can prepare toinvade, despite no longer having the hardware, or we can defend, but it seems odd to me that the UK Governmnment changed the name from ministry of war to ministry of defence and than started warmongering in stead of defending.


I am by no means a lefty, in fact I consider myself to be a littkle to the right of Ghengis Khan, but we must have Laua Norder. Any countyr that makes progressthrough the ammo box instead of the ballot box is due for more trouble soon.

Discuss:




Legal disclaimer: This post was produced at the bottom of the fourth can of Strongbow in less than 45 minutes.

[Capt P U G Wash]

FB let me try and give you a more measured answer.

If you took the No Fly Zone as a literal concept (and I accept that you were) then Haart's views deserve merit; however, such absolutes rarely exist other than in open warfare - something that this is not.

Enforcing a No Fly Zone is a very complex business and the simple moniker NFZ does not do that complexity justice (I doubt if even many politicians understand that). The nub of the problem is that you cannot enforce one on the basis that "it flies it dies". What about air ambulances, defectors, other innocent humanitarian or commercial flights. In order to enforce in a complex environment you need presence not just the threat of violence. A quick glance in a Flight Information Handbook will show that there are a variety of methods you can use to dissuade enemy action or identify peaceful intent. In many ways an air presence saves the politicians from the unintended consequences of their rhetoric. A No Fly Zone may be a No Drive Zone or it may be a Some Fly Zone - you need options to cope with all of these simultaneously. Also, that presence provides the opportunity for hard intelligence.
The other major factor is that the physical presence of air over a country sends wider messages than just to the leadership - deterrence and coercion is a complex business but contrails and jet noise above you can provide a very visible sign of intent to both sides of a dispute. Now if we could just find a cheap contrail and jet noise machine!

I did not duck the question, I assumed knowledge - for that I apologise.

Capt P

[FB11]

Capt P U G Wash,

It was much more fun when you were comparing the interception of aircraft in UK airspace to a Libyan NFZ. Although I see you are now quoting the Flight Information Handbook (FIH) as a source of knowledge for also suggesting how aircraft may be used in such an enforcement over Tripoli.

It was with great pleasure that I actually opened my FIH and read through the section 'Visual Interception Signals' - was this the section you were referring to show the "...variety of ways..." to do things other than ignore or shoot down?

But your points on doctrinal NFZ requirements are of course valid and are worth a pick through to see if - unlike the straight 'no' you gave Haart - there's anything that might just (heaven forbid) lend itself to the complimentary nature of maritime platforms in such an endeavour.

"What about air ambulances, defectors, other innocent humanitarian or commercial flights"

A NFZ will be notified to the international community. Any commercial, humanitarian or air ambulance flights will be squawking, flying in accordance with the ACO and be on a flight profile that is bounded by height and speed. They won't get shot down if they speak on the radio and don't look like a jet flying a profile. A defector will (if he's sensible) squawk emergency, fly as slow as possible with his gear down and do as little to pose a threat as possible. Up until this point, all of this data could have been ascertained by a ship (or, of course an E2/3.) He'd then get intercepted by an aircraft and the interceptor might hope that he's got a copy of the yellow book and understand the day visual signals. (You see, the air and maritime in perfect harmony.)

As for the ability to shoot down an aircraft BVR? Point of origin/height/speed/flight profile/squawk/numbers...I'm fair salivating at the days of yore when such ROE play was the name of the game. All of those conditions could be validated by a surface platform as much as an airborne platform. Not that a surface platform should; just that it could.

By the way, now that the Colonel is increasingly back in charge it is more than an even chance that he might just crank up his SAM batteries (assuming they were ever down) how does the need to schwack the SA-2/3/5 accord with your de-escalatory stance in order to operate obtain Air Superiority over Tripoli/Benghazi and actually police a NFZ with aircraft?

Maybe AD capable ships aren't such a bad idea...certainly worthy of a 'maybe' rather a 'no'?

P.S. Do you think a Libyan Fitter en route to deliver some HE would acknowledge the Typhoon waggling his wing and flying "...slightly above and ahead of, and normally to the left of, the intercepted aircraft..." and accept that "you have been intercepted, follow me"?

P.P.S It's not my assumed knowledge that's in question, it's the many hundreds who read this forum who don't have detailed knowledge about such matters that might walk away with an imbalanced view of the world if we make sweeping statements.

[humpndump]

It’s always the UK. It does nothing for our international reputation and has potential knock on effects to our efforts elsewhere. Why not Finland or some other country with an inactive military? Better still, The Arab League of Nations sort their own back yard.

[dead_pan]

Well chaps, its looks like you're on. Out-of-the-blue, the UN has gone and voted for it.

[Lima Juliet]

The UN Security Council has approved a resolution to impose a no-fly zone over Libya and authorize “all necessary measures” to protect civilians from attacks by Moammar Gadhafi's forces. The vote on Thursday was 10-0 with five abstentions, including Russia and China.

The United States, in a sharp shift in tone from earlier in the week, said earlier in the day that it wanted the UN to authorize not just a no-fly zone to aid Libyan rebels, but also air strikes against Libyan tanks and heavy artillery.


Job on...:ok:

[UAV689]

Fly safe chaps.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

more here
BBC News - Libya: UN backs action against Colonel Gaddafi (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12781009)
Gloves off and the Brits involved, apparently.
I remember the Yank F-111 guys having 'Libyan Urban Renewal' patches in '86
'Qaddaffi Airfield Resurfacing' anyone?

[bakseetblatherer]

Good luck who ever goes, real ops for the Typhoon?

[RookiePilot]

Get some! Wish I was along for the ride...

What will these measures consist of... Typhoon? Tornado? As for AAR, VC-10?
Support; Hercules?

Going to be hard to balance it with concurrent ops, with our forces stretched as they are.

[Willard Whyte]

Don't forget the ISTAR, rookie.

[MaxReheat]

Time for another Strategic Defence Review to review the last one, methinks, especially is Cameron is going to carry on where Bliar left off.

[Thelma Viaduct]

I wonder why it's ok for Bahrain to kill their own people......... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Double standards à la Iraq & Afghanistan.

Do the useless robbing bell-end politicians never learn???

[Capt P U G Wash]

FB, I guess the UN believed my argument more!

[tartare]

So - what nationalities of flying hardware will we see going in?
US first off the mark no doubt, then UK - France, Italy?

[glad rag]

Going to be hard to balance it with concurrent ops, with our forces stretched as they are.

A VERY valid point, wonder where any airbridge will be coming from let alone "assets"...

[TEEEJ]

Looks like Canada is going to deploy CF-18 Hornets?

CTV Winnipeg- Canada to send six CF-18s for Libya 'no-fly' mission - CTV News (http://winnipeg.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110317/cf-libya-canada/20110317/?hub=WinnipegHome)

TJ

[tartare]

Wonder if a few Super Hornets with kangaroos on the side might show up as well...

[500N]

"Wonder if a few Super Hornets with kangaroos on the side might show up as well..."


Wishful thinking - remember, that means putting ADF hardware in harms way
and I don't think the pollies have the balls to do that.

But it would be good if they did. Great training.

.

[bakseetblatherer]

Well I seem to remember tanking with some West Island F18s over Iraq so maybe they do have the cojones.

[500N]

That was then, this is now.

I hope they do go.

[sisemen]

So why the fcku aren't all the other Arab states with their fancy toys (think Saudi) enforcing the NFZ. Why the Western nations?

Are they saying that, despite the money expended on state of the art aircraft, and (attendance) training to get their aircrew up to speed, that they really aren't worth jack ****?

Must do wonders for their sense of pride.

[tartare]

Hasn't the odd RAAF Pig headed up to that part of the world in years past?
Or is all that stuff classified...?
R/e Saudi - I remember reading a post once about some drivers being too frightened to fly the kit they had - may be nothing has changed - Princes playing at being knucks...?

[doubleu-anker]

When will the Libyan Airshow will get under way? Anymore dithering and there will be no one alive to defend.

[ozbiggles]

Every now and again you get to watch someone destroy their credibility on this site.
For 500 minus
RAAF hercs and P3 have now been deployed in the MEAO since 2003....for your info that is a little longer than that small battle called WWII.
C17s make regular visits
The Army has had Chinooks there for many years now.
Both Hercs and Chinooks have received ground fire, a lot as it happens
What if ANY point are you trying to make?
As for sending RAAF fighters to the other side of the world when there are 20 other NATO countries there to crush a nut with a sledge hammer....why?

[TBM-Legend]

well for a start we've got KRudd bumping his gums calling for a NFZ. We'd better put our money [Air Force assets] where our mouth is...

[tartare]

Errm - just asking a question about the Pigs in the past - that's all Biggles... and wondering if Aust will be asked to/offer to contribute fast jets... no axe to grind tiger...

[ozbiggles]

I think you will find KRudd is more interested in shooting down Julia than he is fighting Gaddafi....
I would like the PM....I mean foreign minister now to say what the plan is he has the NFZ up and running. Keeping a few clapt out Migs and Hinds from flying isn't going to change the outcome of this. There must be some fascinating Intell floating around.
I don't see how there can be a change on the ground unless ground troops are sent in?
what is the end game we want in this?

Not directed at you Tartare, your questions are very reasonable. There are reasons why there isn't any practical reason to send them. My point was to the other individual who suggested it was not to put ADF hardware in harms way when in reality they are already in the MEAO and have been for over 7 years.

[tartare]

As a non-military pilot - a question for you fastjet drivers - given the CAF have only 4800 mi approx to commute to downtown TIP - and the RAAF would have approx 10,000 mi to ferry - does the issue of "it's simply too far away" become a factor in Govts deciding whether to deploy?
I realise the Super-Hornets got down here in the first place via a very long flight - but I'd hate to be island hopping half-way round the world in a military fast jet.
Slightly different prospect to the global reach a C17 has.

[500N]

ozbiggles

I don't think I shot any cred down that I had - I was saying the pollies haven't got any balls to go the whole way.

"What if ANY point are you trying to make?"
I think you answered it in your following post
"I would like the PM....I mean foreign minister now to say what the plan is he has the NFZ up and running."

If Aust wants to grand stand on the world stage and be the US Lt or Sherriff of the Asia Pacific - and push for a seat on the UN Sec Council, then how about we actually do something instead of asking it to be done.

We've called for a no fly zone, we have assets that can be used, now it has been called, why not use them.

I am sure you have read the thread re Aust Helos, I suppose some of my thoughts come from that.

I know what assets we have in theatre and I know they have been shot up
and good on the service people for doing a great job. But how about Aust steps up and puts some of it's offensive assets to use and in support of our boys on the ground. To some extent, we always seem to do piece meal, supportive ops and little of the blunt end. Why couldn't our F111's, F18 and Super Hornets be used over there (and Tiger's in the future). No point in training all the time if we never find out if it works for real.

We (as in the pollies, NOT the RAAF) seem to be so risk averse.

ozbiggles
Do you see any of our fast jets being used for the NFZ ?
(and although it is thread drift, do you ever see Aust deploying Tigers for Inf support).

[CoodaShooda]

Krudd has been on the radio this afternoon, applauding the move to the NFZ, giving it Australia's full support and then saying that it's up to NATO as the local friendly to manage it. :ugh:

[500N]

Nicely summed up here from the Australian.

"The UN Security Council resolution comes just days after Mr Rudd criticised the body for its failure to act to protect the Libyan people from attacks by dictator Muammar Gaddafi.

He said there was no suggestion Australian fighter jets should be used to enforce the no-fly zone."


“If the no-fly zone was imposed in this part of the world, Australian assets would be considered for possible inclusion for any such UN operation. And we would consider this possibility,” Mr Rudd said.


“This is in North Africa. It is adjacent to the NATO zone, it is across the Mediterranean from the NATO zone. This is primarily the responsibility of adjoining states.”


Mr Rudd said the military effort would now be critical to preventing further loss of civilian life in Libya.


Julia Gillard, who appeared less hawkish on the need for a no-fly zone than Mr Rudd, welcomed the resolution as an important measure to stop dictator attacking the Libyan people.


"The Australian government was among the first to call for decisive action by the international community, including a UN-mandated no-fly zone," the Prime Minister said in a statement.




Yes, that's right, we are one of the first to call for it but don't expect us to put anything in as it's not in our area.

[Earl of Rochester]

UN approves NFZ - Brit flyboys prepare for action. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8389565/Libya-UN-approves-no-fly-zone-as-British-troops-prepare-for-action.html)

Tally Ho chasps!

;)

[Capt_SNAFU]

I reckon some F-22s will be on the way to the med very soon from the 1st FW. When you absolutely positively got to kill every mother****er in the room. Accept no substitutes!!!!!!

[Siggie]

Aussie F18's, aren't they too busy practicing for the clipsal? :rolleyes: :E

Good luck to any guys and gals who take part, give em hell.

[M609]

Norwegian minister of defence is talking about sending F-16 and/or P-3C in the media today.

[Wensleydale]

Not the first time watching Libya. ISTR that in 1991 the UN declared a trade embargo with Libya following the Lockerbie bombing - the major ISTAR asset (in the days before it was called ISTAR) was tasked to periodically monitor Libya for air breaches. We would fly from UK (non-tanked) to south of Italy and watch for about 4-5 hours. We would then return home - again with no tanker. (Mt Etna on Sicily was erupting at the time, and the lava flows made interesting watching at night, but I digress). These missions to Libya ceased when tasking came through to watch arms smuggling into the former Yugoslavia under operation Maritime Monitor. (MM eventually turned into the NFZ/Op Deny Flight, or Deny Wife as it was known to the hard pressed crews). Mind you, we flew between 800 and 1,000 hours a year in those days which is something of a change to the present.

[SilsoeSid]

Oh dear, here we go...!

With redundancies on the near horizon, along with WW3 both in the Middle East and at home, isn't this a good a time as any to go u/s on start?

Put me down on the record for saying that within minutes of the first bomb landing, we will hear of civilian casualties, holy wars being revisited and bringing the war back onto our soil.

Can someone remind me of the air assets of the countries in the Arab League please. :confused:


Anyone else surprised with the voicelessness of Shami Chakrabarti over the last few weeks? As a regular, surely she would be a prime Question Time panelist with recent world events.
Apart from a stint on 'The Wright Stuff' where all she would say was ' in hindsight, perhaps we were naive', when briefly questioned why she, as a member of the board of the LSE, accepted £1.5 million from Gadaffis son, (not to mention the £2.2 mill civil service training contract) ..she is conspicuous by her absense. :suspect:

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

A handful of Typhoons to be based in Malta possibly and Palermo is quite nice at this time of year apparently.

[TBM-Legend]

The ADF is risk averse with real hardware. Early A/Stan we sent F-18's to Diego Garcia. That is about as far from the action as you can get. A few F-18's in GW2 for a few weeks and scurry back home.

Ju-Liar and KRUdd are big talkers and no action. Krudd says "oh that is NATO's backyard"....:=

OK Kevvie get real and do something instead of talking..:}

[aw ditor]

Re-open El Adem?

[Tashengurt]

BBC reporting that MPs will be given the chance to debate and vote on this next week.
No need for any no fly zone by then I'd guess. :(

[Unixman]

Interesting point about Malta. Neutrality is enshrined in their 1987 Constitution with one vital caveat:

"Malta is a neutral state actively pursuing peace, security and social progress among all nations by adhering to a policy of non-alignment and refusing to participate in any military alliance.
Such a status will, in particular, imply that:
(a) no foreign military base will be permitted on Maltese territory;
(b) no military facilities in Malta will be allowed to be used by any foreign forces except at the request of the Government of Malta, and only in the following cases:
(i) in the exercise of the inherent right of self-defence in the event of any armed violation of the area over which the Republic of Malta has sovereignty, or in pursuance of measures or actions decided by the Security Council of the United Nations; "

Wonder if that last point will be mentioned by the world and his dog asking for basing facilities at Luqa?

See timesofmalta.com - Malta's neutrality provisions face sternest test (http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20110318/local/maltas-neutrality-provisions-face-sternest-test)

[TEEEJ]

SiloeSid wrote

Can someone remind me of the air assets of the countries in the Arab League please.

Probably one of the most useful assets would be the Algerian Air Force? They have Su-30MKA Flankers and can support them with their IL-78 Midas tankers.

After a quick spin on the web it appears that Algeria has reservations and had initially opposed it.

The vote approving the no-fly zone was opposed by Syria and Algeria on the grounds that such action could lead to foreign intervention. However, in an address to his Arab League peers, Algerian Foreign Minister Mourad Medelci called for guaranteeing Libya’s security and territorial integrity, APS reported.

Arab League backs Libya no-fly zone (Magharebia.com) (http://www.magharebia.com/cocoon/awi/xhtml1/en_GB/features/awi/newsbriefs/general/2011/03/13/newsbrief-01)

TJ

[ozbiggles]

I have to say Silsoesid sums up a major point here.
The politicians have unleashed the dogs of war and will be the first to look for someone to blame as soon as there is some bad PR.
For the non Aus here we have had a our dumped ex PM, now foreign minister running around on every form of media we have here pumping for this NFZ and then offering nothing to help out.(more about making himself look more in charge than the person who rolled him for PM). He knew full well we wouldn't send anything to help because 1. Its too far and 2. NATO would do the job
The same politicians who are putting on a court martial for some Aussie Army troops who under fire in the sandpit chucked a grenade back and tragically killed a child....but that is the tragic certainty of war.
The same politicians in GB who are cutting back on the military at the same time as they send them off to another war zone.
And what for in this case?
I fail to see what a NFZ alone will achieve here?
A case of pollies in all countries doing something to make themselves look good, but washing their hands of all responsibility.

[dead_pan]

Can someone remind me of the air assets of the countries in the Arab League please


Lets start with the most likely contributor:

Military of Comoros - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Comoros)

Thats two SF260s into the mix!


A handful of Typhoons to be based in Malta possibly and Palermo is quite nice at this time of year apparently.


What about Lampedusa? Its a nice place now that Libyans have stopped all of those horrible migrants over-running the place. Actually I feel a bit sorry for those migrants - they spend all of their money and risk life and limb to make a new start in life. The next thing they know they're banged up in a Libyan jail, then released, given a gun a told to go and fight the rebels. And now they're going to be bombed by the very countries they were trying to get to. I bet they wonder where or earth did it all go so wrong.

[Jumping_Jack]

Any news on what we might be contributing? ISTAR? Tankers? Mudmovers? AD? All of the above? :eek:

[dead_pan]

Apaches from the flight-deck of err... Then again maybe not.

[AR1]

Just announced on the news that Typhoons will be deployed to 'an airfield' to enforce the NFZ.

[BOAC]

I think we should send Billy Vague and his 'room partner' out to hold Matt's sheet in the desert.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/boacphotos/matt.jpg"

[Hangar_9]

S@@T just got real!

Tiffies finally get to prove there worth! :ok:

[TOPBUNKER]

Is someone having an Air Display this early in the year?

(Tongue in cheek of course - let's hope that this PM's battles are short, sharp, and unscathed.)

[Jumping_Jack]

Cameron has just announced that my 'All of the above' option has been taken!

AAR, ISTAR, Tiffy & Tornado.....:ok:

[Jumping_Jack]

According to Cameron so are Tornado, AAR and ISTAR.

[BlackIsle]

So let's hope they have bases left open to return to whenever that may be.......

[brokenlink]

Just wondered how good the Typhoon and Tornados are going to be if they have to engage ground targets.

[Msylla]

This could be interesting

[SilsoeSid]

Why can't we just for once say no?
We can agree to a NFZ by all means, but why do we have to provide the ac and crews when there are so many closer assets that could operate from home? (Interesting to see how Malta's position will progress)

Just what happens once the NFZ is in force?
Troops supporting Gadaffi then begin to overthrow the opposition with tanks and ground troops. What do we do then?
We have just said that no UN troops will set foot on Libyan soil haven't we! Will we sit back and let it happen or get yet another UN resolution that sees UK troops ready to go to Aghanistan diverted?

Please stop this madness!

[LBP PC DC]

Thoughts and prayers to all those being deployed for this and other operations.

[Jumping_Jack]

BrokenlinkStrange question. As far as I am aware Tornadoes are pretty good at going after ground targets! Tiffies provide topcover, Tornadoes do the business....

[500N]

ozbiggles

So if I say it, I lose cred, if TBM-Legend says the same thing,
it's all OK and you'll let it go through to the keeper without comment.

Double standards.

Everybody I know laughed when our 4 planes or so went to Diego Garcia and thought it was a real joke.

You must hear the stories out of the sand pit that to an extent the Aust is risk averse even on ground ops (by the ROE we adhere to) and what can and can't be done.

And in relation to KRudd, it's a bit like a CO or OC telling lots of war stories in the bar and geeing up for any op that comes along but when the op does come along, doesn't go on it !!!

If we aren't going to put something in "because it's not our area" then what are we doing pushing for it in the first place ?

BTW, how far is Canada from Libya ? They seem to be all in very quickly
without a lot of grand standing.

Anyway, at least for once the UN made a reasonably quick decision
and good luck to all those that participate.

[MATELO]

deployed to 'an airfield' to enforce the NFZ.

Deci ??

:)

[SRENNAPS]

If all true, I just hope that Mr Cameron is doing this for all the right reasons and does not have a "half" hidden agenda along the lines of:

“I told you we would still have a worldwide military capability despite all the recent defence (especially RAF fast jet) cuts”.


Thoughts and prayers to all those being deployed for this and other operations.

Totally agreed.

[thunderbird7]

Could we now have a discussion about whether the F3 could have done it better, throw in a bit about the Harrier and lets not forget the Mighty 'Rod...
:ok:

[Tashengurt]

Looks like operation deny weekend will be getting up and running for many.
Hope it goes smoothly for you all. I also hope it's not too little too late.

[Ms Spurtle]

From what I've seen on the news, this Libyan 'Rebel Alliance' seems to consist of a load of Nissan pickups with machine guns strapped to the back.

What's going to happen when a Tonka takes a low pass and these untrained rebels decide to have a pop?

[The Old Fat One]

If all true, I just hope that Mr Cameron is doing this for all the right reasons and does not have a "half" hidden agenda along the lines of:



Whatever the rights and wrongs, every politician that has ever lived has always had a hidden agenda.