A320: (PNF) Foot on Rudder Pedals (during Taxi, T/O and LDG)

[higher320]

Dear All,


I have a question that I would like to get your opinion on.

I fly A320 as a captain, All my experience is on Airbus Aircrafts.

Recently, I have noticed some of the copilots leave their foot on the rudder pedals even if they are PNF.

the story is, I was taxying one day, and started the FLT CTRL check, While i was checking the ELEV/AIL, I found that the rudder pedals are stiff to control the Aircraft on the taxiway centerline. then i noticed the copilot foot on the pedals, so i told him to relax his foot and then i felt a difference.

Same thing, with the same copilot happened again on the T/O roll, I felt the same pressure on the pedals and told him to relax his foot.

during the flight, I asked him if someone told him to have his foot on the pedals while he is PNF and he said Yes. A captain told him to do like that """Just In Case""" the Engine fails on T/O and the Captain can not control the Aircraft !!!

I have seen it now with other copilots, and each one of them was told somthing different.

I don't blame the copilots, they are doing what they were told to do.

some of them were told to put foot on pedals while PNF to follow the inputs of the other pilot, or to be ready to brake if necessary.

In my opinion, PF should always have full access to rudder pedals input "if required" and the PNF should have the foot on the floor. as when the PNF have foot on pedals, it feels strange and heavy pedals specially on T/O.

Your opinion is highly appreciated and considred.

[compressor stall]

PNF should have feet on the pedals during PF rudder check and follow the movement. FCTM NO-040 p6.

[captainng]

yes a lot of newish guys stick there feet on the rudders during taxi and take off and it makes you feel like you have a control problem.
my general comment to them gaurding the controls is- if you had to guard brittany spears would you be close by or always touching her. it seems to get the message across. i never tell them off as if i do fail to hit the brakes for a corner i want them close by to do it for me!!!
you only need there feet close by and not physically touching them as i use rudder to steer on the ground as my choice.
:ok:
regards NG

[Bus Driver Man]

As a First Officer, I always keep my feet on the pedals when the captain is taxying and flying manual.
Ofcourse I don't put any pressure on them. Never had any complaints about it. (I know what a pain in the ass it can be if the captain puts any pressure on the pedals when I take off. So it's not only a FO problem ;))
Just in case you have to brake suddenly without losing any time or in case something happens and you have to take over during TO and landing, which are critical phases.

What do you do as a captain while the FO is flying? I hope you keep your feet on the pedals as well.
Imagine: New FO, engine failure during TO and he pushes the wrong pedal... If you keep your feet on the pedals, you can notice this immediately and correct his action or take over.
Same could happen with a stressed captain, so I always keep my hand and feet on the controls. (Airbus sidestick, not conventional controls)

[PantLoad]

My former company's SOP says, with regard to the rudder pedals, that the non-flying pilot keep his/her feet lightly on the rudder pedals. The intent is to 'be there' if necessary, but not to restrict the flying pilot in any way.

With regard to the sidestick, the hand is to be adjacent to the stick (not 'on' it), ready at a moments notice to hit the red button and announce, "I have control."

Having heavy feet on the rudder pedals (by the non-flying pilot) to the point where the flying pilot has to push hard to get any kind of movement is absolutely wrong. This falls into the category of two people on the controls at once.....which is a major 'no-no'.

Only one person on the controls at a time, and who is controlling the aircraft is explicitly stated and known.

Fly safe,


PantLoad

[Alt Crz Green]

As a First Officer, I always keep my feet on the pedals when the captain is taxying and flying manual.


Not on my aircraft you wouldn't be. As I wouldn't when PM.
The instinct to do something when you're on the controls as PM would lead to a risk of overcontrolling. This risk is far greater than the risk presented by the PF incorrectly sending the aircraft irretrievably out of control in the split second between incorrect corrective action beginning and the PM taking over control to remedy the situation. As it would indeed be only a split second from moving hands and feet in proximity to the controls onto the controls if necessary.
Think about the big picture of what you do.
Finally, how fast do you taxi in your company that you think instant corrective action might be necessary?

[John Citizen]

I find it very annoying when the other pilot has his feet on the rudder pedals too :*

Its even more annoying when they start making inputs. Inputs which are entirely unnecessary for any other reason than for the captain to reassert his authority I think. Some people just love power and control I think.

Once I was doing a line check with a check captain in the jumpseat and the aircraft kept on slowing down on its own (as the captain as PNF applied the brakes), and I was not even taxiing fast at all.

I was taxiing in accordance with SOP, regarding speed limits and minimal brake applications (to save wear).

I found it extremely annoying and perhaps should have raised my concerns to the check captain but in the end I said nothing.

For example, if I am approaching the holding point at less than 5 knots with no danger of crossing the line, is it necessary for the other pilot to make a brake input ?

These days I taxi a lot slower (2 knots) and stop well early (50 m short) just in case the captain gets excited and jumps on the brakes for me.

[sevenstrokeroll]

dear sir:

except in extraordinary situations, only ONE PERSON should have their hands/feet on the flight controls.

its that simple.

[Tee Emm]

and he pushes the wrong pedal... If you keep your feet on the pedals, you can notice this immediately and correct his action or take over

And how about if you as the first officer mis-identify the wrong engine and in your split second eagerness to save the aircraft from disaster and win a medal, you overide the captain's input and stuff your foot on the wrong rudder?

Suggest it is good airmanship to keep your hands and feet away from the controls unless you are doing the flying - not the :mad: monitoring.

[sand_groper]

Tee Emm... completely agree with your post, however the same also applies to an overly eager Captain. ;)

Whilst there certainly is a requirement to guard the flight controls, those pilots who choose to achieve this by physically touching the flight controls, and are unable to do so without inhibiting inputs from the PF invalidate the PNF/PF concept.

In the event that it is an intentional intervention, if you don't like what you see;

1) Raise concern verbally

2) If an immediate threat exists and there is no response... take over!


Wouldn't it be nice if there was a dual input warning for the brakes on the bus....

[A37575]

I find it very annoying when the other pilot has his feet on the rudder pedals too

One thing I often see, which, while not annoying, can be quite mesmerising to the observer, are pilots who "walk" the throttles. It's as if they have a hand tremor like Parkinson's Disease. The theory, I was told is"walking the throttles" gives a more accurate power setting. Some loony theory, I must say.

The first time I ever saw this strange and disturbing affliction was on the venerable DC3. On take off the pilot would rapidly oscillate each throttle on the way up to 48 inches of manifold pressure and it intrigued me to watch the prop RPM needles and manifold pressure needles jerk their way up the gauges.

I am sure the stop and start motion was not very good for the engines, but just about every DC3 pilot I flew with, did it. One explanation given to me was the throttle friction nuts in those days were prone to binding and playing walkies on the throttles somehow prevented ham-fisted pilots from over-boosting.

Old myths certainly die hard although throttle walking has been in vogue for well over half a century. Mainly on propeller aircraft though.

But to see this happening on jet transports one wonders why this is so (with apologies from pinching the expression of Professor Sumner-Miller).

Another harmless habit which I can assure readers will not send them blind, are those pilots who seem unable to keep their hand still when on the throttles. One sees their fingers claw like on the throttles and at the same time wriggling them like playing a harp. (harp - a stringed musical instrument played by plucking) "harp" -to talk persistently on some subject -like A37575..

Knee tremblers in the cockpit can be distracting, too. There you are picking up speed down the runway and out of the corner of your eye you see the copilot's knee jerking up and down as in a nervous tic.

So too are the "hoverer's" whose hands or fingers are poised ready to turn the heading knob in an instant or hover over the gear lever waiting impatiently for the command of gear up or gear down.

Most of us put up with these petty annoyances in the cockpit that really distract or p.ss you off. Yet, we were well brought up and sent to the best schools and too well mannered to attack the offending party with harsh words so you resort to slumping in your allotted control seat and suffer in silence but you really want to explode with WHAT THE FCUK ARE YOU DOING NOW! :mad: :mad::ok:

[John Citizen]

Wouldn't it be nice if there was a dual input warning for the brakes on the bus....

Unfortunately some of these "control freaks" are aware that they can make very small sidetsick inputs without the dual input alert going off, yet i sometimes see the green light (sidetsick priority light) flash in front of me

[bArt2]

but you really want to explode with WHAT THE FCUK ARE YOU DOING NOW!

There are also nice ways to get your message across :E

[Flogged Horse]

A37575, I would hate to fly with you.

I'd get tired of sitting like a robot wondering how I am pi$$ing you off now. Sounds like you are another of these, I am better because I am older types. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love learning from the guys that have been doing this longer than I have been standing on this earth. I have the upmost respect for their experience. I think most of the older guys that I am lucky enough to fly with have the most superior airmanship I have ever seen., I am constantly striving to conduct myself like them, however it takes time. Thank goodness you have the manners you say you do, as it would be most unpleasant if you were to voice your opinion about all of these petty human traits.

Blue skies and continue to suffer in silence for the sake of the young guy trying to learn from you.

FH

[BOAC]

Yes, but don't you think that says it all?:) There are times when 'warm and fluffy' just does not cut it.

John C - I have read (and responded) to your other posts on this topic, and in view of what appears to be a repetitive, significant and on-going problem you have, I begin to wonder if you need to be just that little more assertive in the way you 'co-pilot'?

You could try A37575's solution.......................

I'd get tired of sitting like a robot wondering how I am pi$$ing you off now. - to me, that shows a similar worrying state of mind. Would you have NO idea how to resolve this?

[Flogged Horse]

I resolve any issues in the cockpit just fine thank you BOAC. We are after all two adults in a cockpit are we not?

I perhaps did not explain myself properly.

We all have habits. It is what makes us individuals. I therefore embrace the idea that different people are going to do things in a manner different to myself. Providing it isn't against SOPS, who am I to tell them to stop shaking a knee. I have flown with guys who are a lot ruder than A37575. They just don't stop whinging about everything from my tie length, to my pen selection, to the way that I tap my knee to a beat (I play drums I can't stop it). The whole time I am thinking, can't we spend the time passing on the hot tips?

Now we are way off topic. I as a copilot would not touch the controls when the other guy/gal has control. Unless it was in my SOP's to do so. I would expect the same in return. As for where the guy keeps his hand to change the heading bug? Do what you want. It is your hand and your job, just don't stuff it up !!:ok:

Have I eased your concern BOAC?

[Hobo]

As a First Officer, I always keep my feet on the pedals when the captain is taxying and flying manual.


I agree with Alt Crz Green, not on my aircraft you wouldn't.

Fairly shortly after I moved to the LHS, I nearly called for an abandoned take off on one take off. When I started the take off roll, the rudder pedals felt unusually solid, to check this out I tried putting in a big input (still at very low speed), and noticed the F/O's knees moving, I told him to get clear of the controls and all was OK.

I then kept an eye on all subsequent F/O's and found that in particular, ex helicopter and/or military pilots had this appalling habit. It was, and still is, not company procedure to do this, anymore than there are two hands on the throttles, the flap lever or gear lever.

As a keen manual flyer whenever possible, I found this irritating and potentially dangerous. As a Capt PNF, I never touched the controls. If I had any qualms about the F/O's capabilities, I would not let him fly or recommend him for further training.

[Airbus_a321]

PNF/PM feet on the floor (always ready to take over just in case) - but never ever on the pedals !
the same with the stick hands-off for PNF/PM

[Bus Driver Man]

Not on my aircraft you wouldn't be. As I wouldn't when PM.

I agree with Alt Crz Green, not on my aircraft you wouldn't.

I don't know if it's written in our company SOP's, but that's the way I've been trained.
All captains where I work do exactly the same (TO and landing. Most off them without putting any pressure on it. There are exceptions, and it annoys me as well when they limit my movement).

Since I don't put any pressure on the rudder, I don't see the problem. You wouldn't even notice it if we flew together. But I'll take it into account if we ever do ;)

[Airbus_a321]

I don't put any pressure on .....don't be so shure. Doing some researches long time ago, they found out that there was sometimes already a slight - but nevertheless - an actual and feelable input on the sidestick from the pilot while just using the toggle-switch for doing calls, which has, while on manual flight, always to be corrected by the :confused:PF -

since then: hands off - feet off - but anytime ready to take-over, of course.

[Jonty]

I have my feet on the ruder pedals during take off and landing. I even waggle them to see if the PF is awake. Should I not be doing this?

[Bus Driver Man]

..don't be so shure. Doing some researches long time ago, they found out that there was sometimes already a slight - but nevertheless - an actual and feelable input on the sidestick from the pilot while just using the toggle-switch for doing calls, which has, while on manual flight, always to be corrected by the http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gifPF -

Ok, but wouldn't this be noticed by a dual input signal? Then it would be quite clear that there was an inadvertent movement.

Seems to me that this can happen when your press the PTT switch without properly grabbing the sidestick. If you just press it, you apply a backward force which can move the stick. While on the other hand, if you grab the sidestick while pressing the PTT switch you automatically apply a counter force which should keep the stick neutral.

[BOAC]

Typical Airbus oiks! Etiquette on the 737 has PNF use the console PTT while PF valiantly wrestles with the aeroplane so as not to interfere with the delicate touches of the master..

[grounded27]

Finally, how fast do you taxi in your company that you think instant corrective action might be necessary

Thread drift. I noticed during a Hajj that some middle eastern/asian pilots taxied at V1. Can anyone operating in this region confirm this as normal or is it just the mass cattle car convention that has everyone hauling ass to pick up another load of pilgrims?

[Airbus_a321]

@boac
.....that was one suggestion after noticing those inputs... to use the INT/RAD switch on the ACP while handflying


@Busdriverman...Ok, but wouldn't this be noticed by a dual input signal

no, if there is no actual input at this time. and there shouldn't be any permanent inputs while handflying. but this you know. adjust and release.

[BOAC]

.that was one suggestion after noticing those inputs... to use the INT/RAD switch on the ACP while handflying -aye! When I were a lad 'twould have been smack round the head with a rolled up Daily Telegraph if I sinned:)

[Upper Air]

A37575

LOL!

Loved yer post!!

[Upper Air]

Love it!!!:O

[Ndicho Moja]

You mean it hasn't changed? I thought that was what CRM and touchie feely was all about....effective communication :) It is way better than the old "Oh what is he doing now" routine.

[rigpiggy]

Having had an F/O trying to run the show the other day i agree with 35757.

From resetting the throttles to the "most captains do it this way" , but they couldn't hold +/- 200 ft, or 10 degrees on the approach. Though they did congratulate me on my old school NDB approach.

Today my F/O was a piece of cake, I ask 2 things don't kill me, or get me violated!

[kick the tires]

From the Orange Manual:

PNF should cover the controls once the RA is alive. This means that feet should be in the vicinity of the rudder pedals but not applying any force.

The side-stick should be covered, but care should be taken so that no inputs are made.

[malaysiacadet]

i noticed whenever i fly with Ex-Military guys,
i always have auto-rudder inputs during crosswind landings......, i flare slightly lower below the recommended height of 30ft RA(i reduce the sink rate at 30ft ra, and wait a bit before i flare fully). and some ex military guys gets nervous and pulls the stick at the exact same moment i pull, and we get Dual-Input, aircraft pitches up more than it should all of sudden.. and floated, soon after, the speed start bleeding off and the aircraft sank.. WHAM!!...

i would just pretend nothing happened(although i can clearly hear dual input and see the greenlight flashing) and tell the captain.. wow.. did u notice the sudden pitch up just now?

for some reasons, i get this mostly from ex-military guys..... it seems that to them,only they know how to fly.. and these people always tries to neutralize the crab angle and fly with cross-control inputs at approx 150ft RA to touchdown on an Airbus......

[411A]

As a First Officer, I always keep my feet on the pedals when the captain is taxying and flying manual.

Not on my aircraft you wouldn't be.

Nor on my aircraft.
Furthermore, if said First Officer tried it again, they would be turfed out of the company, pronto.

[Dream Land]

Yes this habit annoys the heck out of me, but someone somewhere is obviously teaching cadets to do this, I now try to be very diplomatic, our SOP's back me up.

For us, the only person that backs up the other pilot is the captain.

Cheers, D.L.

[capt. solipsist]

Quote:
As a First Officer, I always keep my feet on the pedals when the captain is taxying and flying manual.

Not on my aircraft you wouldn't be.

Quote:
Nor on my aircraft.
Furthermore, if said First Officer tried it again, they would be turfed out of the company, pronto.

Nor on ours. You're gonna be slapped with heaps of reports from captains as exhibiting dangerous characteristics if you do.

Know the difference between "being on guard" and intervention. :ugh:

[RA-alive]

Few check pilots & trainers in our airline suggest to keep it hands adjacent o the sidestick or tiller but not hold it firmly... Also in simple words be ready to take over like during side stick fault or tiller failure to take over.. also for rudders when docking in at the parking stand the F/O notices the right would not be completely clear & has to jump on the brakes to avoid damage.
But i do apologise if it dont make sense, as am just learning the ropes On the Bus..

[chopchop7]

Interesting reading the posts guys.

A Captain making inputs routinely while the FO flies can mean either, that he lacks confidence in himself or he is just plain arrogant. Hopefully, such Captains are a minority. In routine fair weather operations, the PMs hands or feet on controls is a nuisance never mind who is PF.

But there definitely is a need for the Capt to be alert in the crucial phases, should things start to go out of the FOs hands as sometimes they do. Being alert may range from just watching to following on controls or even taking over in condns like gusting winds, rain or the likes. There is nothing to feel offended about here. After all if FOs were as good as Captains, they would be Captains.

With the Capt as PF, there have been instances when a low experience Captain in bad weather has got much help from the FO; and therefore the total experience rule. Even so, if its a bad situation, the FO calls for a go around. The FO keeping his feet or hands on controls is entirely useless and he should be asked to keep off until a rare case of an incapacitated Capt.

So a Capt following on controls in critical phases with the FO flying should be fine, but when the Capt flies, it is safest if the FO just keeps clear... almost always.

:cool:

[Upper Air]

smack around the 'ead
You mean it hasn't changed? I thought that was what CRM and touchie feely was all about....effective communication http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif It is way better than the old "Oh what is he doing now" routine.




Don`t tease me. . .

[fdr]

Under FAA check criteria it would be a simple fail. 2 crew on controls at same time = fail. Thats what a control handover is about.

I checked a crew once on a B744 and after a horrible landing by the FO duly chastised by the Captain, the PIC finally asked if I had any comments... to which I just asked who had logged the landing... the PIC promptly attributed it to the FO, so then I wondered openly why the PIC was trimming the aircraft from 200' through to the middle of the flare. This is bad at so many levels it's hard to work out where to begin.

There is precious little that needs split second response, in fact a substantial number of the pilot induced scrapes I have investigated have resulted from incorrect but instantaneous responses (where the pilots have been aware of anything going on... which is a subset of the total events...). Of those events that need split second responses, most cannot be saved once the wrong input has been applied, and a failure of a handover/takeover just exacerbates a large proportion of these.

Interesting comment by one of the posters, that they put their hands/feet on the controls when PNF/PM but resents it when the other pilot does the same when they are PF...


Control check is another matter, the books (Boeing) require the rudder check to have both pilots touching the pedals to ensure their control throw is adequate

[John Citizen]

After all if FOs were as good as Captains, they would be Captains

I disagree.

Though sure in general, Captains are :
- are better than FO's
- are more experienced
- been trained more
- more knowledgable

However there always are exceptions.

I had a captain once who :
- rarely did any paperwork
- never did a walk around (he was busy smoking)
- didn't follow SOP very well and didn't care either (probably didn't know the SOP's anyway)
- regularly exceeded limits
- flew rather poorly

Now how can the above quoted statement be true ?

I am nothing special as an FO but I think it wouldn't be hard for most FO's to be better than this particular Captain.

He was a Captain because he knew the right people (old boys club) and FO's who were not part of the boys club did not ever become a Captain.

[BOAC]

Whoa boys!

The most unprofessional behaviour I've heard yet. - I think you missed the missing smiley?

JC - you certainly do appear to have had/are having a 'difficult time'! Any progress with your 'problem'?

Diverting from topic:
After all if FOs were as good as Captains, they would be Captains. - a meaningless statement without a definition of 'good'. I would suggest that a capable F/O JUST out of training would probably be as 'good' if not better at a s/e NDB than me, as probably would a high hour on type F/O with a new Captain on type. Becoming a 'Captain' has zilch to do with being 'good'. Handling abilities are taken as given, and most of the 'ability' is in management skills, normally acquired through TIME. Rarely will a 'good' F/O become a Captain without the dreaded 'time in the seat' no matter how 'good' he/she might be.

Now back to waggling bits that are not yours to waggle......................

[Centaurus]

Only the captain should his feet lightly on the rudder pedals at all times

Why? His feet should be on the floor - never should the captain be "following through" on any controls when he is PNF. There is simply no need for it. If he does not trust the F/O to fly then as captain he has the responsibility to report this and arrange for more training for the first officer. If the captain cannot take over control within a fraction of a second if something goes badly wrong then he should not have the job as captain.

Of course some captains are very nervous regardless how good the F/O at his job and these captains are known to hover nervously over the controls when the other pilot is flying. It is then the captain that needs further training to improve his personal confidence.

[Dream Land]

Nothing to do with nervous Centaurus, I work in the land of "danger crosswind" (by ATC) when the component is less than 5 knots, you may not believe me but it's true.

It's more about responsibility, one of the worst landings that I have witnessed was accomplished by another captain that was sitting in the right seat that day when he lowered the wrong wing in a crosswind and managed to get the aircraft in a wheel barrow mode.

My hands and feet are always in a position to take over when near the ground.

Cheers, D.L.

[Cough]

Is the answer to do whatever it says in your ops manual. In mine it says only one is in control, so my feet are on the floor. I know other airlines ops manuals say different.

What I do know is, if you are following through then you have to remember that you now have equal responsibility to the HP. I say that having had to have two goes at applying rudder on a 40kt crosswind landing. The first go I had I realised his size 12's were in the way, a shout later and I could apply rudder. Now as I always used to lead with aileron then you can probably guess that the roll axis became slightly unstable for a moment.

But, having said that, read your ops manual!

[Bengerman]

C'mon, this is not rocket science!!

If you are flying the aircraft, you have the controls, if you are not flying the aircraft, you should not have the controls, certainly not have feet on rudder pedals. That is a recipe for a smoking hole!

It is only common sense, FFS!! :ugh::ugh:

[9.G]

Commander is ultimately responsible for safe conduct of the flight regardless whether he/she is PF or PNF thus the commander must be ready to take over any time if he/she deems necessary. Having said that PNF MUST be ready to take over in case of incapacitation, consequently F/O must be on controls, if PNF, specially during critical stages of the flight without obstructing the PF. I've had similar situations where a simple exchange of words resolved the issue. On the other hand hard rudder might be mistaken for interference. Why not speak up? The OM A states unambiguously both pilots are on controls below 1500 ft. Insurance companies love this sentence, remember famous BA 777 where FO landed the aircraft. :ok:

[Dream Land]

Bengerman, not sure what type a/c you operate, but I fly on a regular basis (line flying, not training) with pilots with less than 1000 hours in an airplane, so IMHO, having my feet on the floor during landing as PNF is simply not safe, so you are correct, it's not rocket science.

This all in accordance with our SOP and as mentioned by 9.g, is my Full responsibility.

Cheers, D.L.

[Cough]

9.G

And there is the point. Your ops manual says that. Ours doesn't!

Do whatever is says!

[sand_groper]

Centaurus and BOAC have hit the nail on the head...

If the handling pilot has the aircraft in such a condition that the split second between moving one's feet from the vicinity of, to actually acting on the pedals would mean the difference between life and death, then either:

a) The PNF should've taken over much earlier

or

b) the PF is so inept, he/she shouldn't be anywhere near the controls of a jet aircraft

Seriously... there is nothing worse than commencing a takeoff roll and for a split second thinking there could be some sort of nosewheel steering / heavy rudder issue, only to realise the clown sitting next to you is half asleep and resting his/her feet (not following) on the pedals.

or... trying to bring the aircraft to a smooth halt on stand, only to realise when you start relaxing pressure on the pedals that the other pilot unconsciously holds that pressure and you come to a premature stop

Or... even worse; the colossal muppet who takes over on landing well above taxi speed on a wet runway without announcing it and disengages the autobrake, causing all sorts of 'threat rich' confusion. Maybe if his/her feet weren't resting on the pedals, they would first announce and then take over, as per SOP, thereby mitigating any potential for high speed ambiguity in the cockpit.

Does it really matter how the PNF guards the controls? IMHO, not particularly, provided the actions taken satisfy the following tests;

1) The requirement is to GUARD (watch over/protect) the controls

2) Manipulations made by the PF should never be inhibited as part of this process

3) Only one pilot should be flying the aircraft at any point in time. If inputs are required to maintain the integrity of the operation the PNF should TAKE OVER

(obviously training and flying with very low experienced pilots is a whole different scenario, but please give an experienced and competent f/o a break! :ok:)

Dream Land do you fly in the same tropical haven that offers "Caution headwind 7 knots...?"

[411A]

... but please give an experienced and competent f/o a break! )



We certainly do at our small company.
If said F/O paints themselves into a corner, it is up to them to find a way out.
Otherwise...they learn very little in the process.

[9.G]

cough, I wouldn't be so sure. Regardless which rules you follow EU OPS, FAA or ICAO each and every operator must ensure compliance with a basic principle No pilot may operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger life or property. along with the salvatorius clause stating that in case something is missing ICAO rules, procedures etc apply. What is safer both pilots on controls or only one, is not the same question of who's flying the aircraft? As much as could this accident have been prevented if both pilots were on controls? In answering this question a lawyer or a judge will apply a principal of normal capacity. It's only logical to conclude that if someone isn't on controls he/she isn't following mentally the take off or landing and the readiness to take over isn't warranted. In the legal jungle there's always something written somewhere making you liable anyways. No matter how many rules will be written it always boils down to a good will and acting in good faith. Each and every one must must answer those questions for himself and the operator must tackle this issue.:ok:

[homerj]

Its probably one of the most annoying habits in the flightdeck.
Its usually the annoying over assertive type of f/o that do it.
" Take you feet off the rudder pedals please " usually sorts it for me

[Bus Driver Man]

Interesting comment by one of the posters, that they put their hands/feet on the controls when PNF/PM but resents it when the other pilot does the same when they are PF...
If you are referring to my post:
I only said that it annoys me as well when the PNF limits my movement of rudder by applying a lot of force on it.
Not when his feet are on the rudder without any interference. (Like I do without ever having complaints about it, except from some captains on an internet forum.)

There's a very big difference between the two.

[Upper Air]

"Feet on the pedals - heels on the floor"

"Make sure you make NO inputs on the pedals during takeoff - there`s a nice chap/ess"

"Set 50%. . . ."

Job done.

[Overheat]

As Cpt I never had to take the controls out of any FO.
As FO I had to take the controls out of a CPT who was training to be a farmer...

I'm no better than any one of us dear friends, but my point is that I was a FO, so I know what an FO thinks... I remember my fears and limitations... that's the only difference between CPT and FO. We have been on the right seat.

Regarding Flight Controls, of course PF hands, feet and brain on the controls.
PNF talks on te radio with a nice and sexy voice, professionaly do the wonderful paper work that without it the airplane doesn't fly and with the corner of his/her eyes keeps on monitoring the beautiful job PF is doing.
If you fell the rudder is a bit hard, just say "easy on the rudder tiger".
Aren't we all the best Pilots on the world??? Of course we are... so just enjoy and fly.
Don't fight amoung each other... Save your energies to flight against Company Administrations that try to makes us comun office employes.
We are the Aviation Industry.

Regards
Overheat...

[Centaurus]

In another life I was flying an F27 (as captain) left seat with a check captain occupying the right seat. We were short of F/O's which is why two captains were crewed.
Over the week or so I had been crewed with this chap, it became evident he was a nervous nellie who couldn't help himself but to ride the controls while I was doing the take off or landing. In particular I noticed that the control forces when I rotated were always seemingly significantly greater when this bloke was in the RH seat. Moreover, when I watched him fly from the LH seat on his leg, it was noticeable he would ignore the support call of "VR" and instead rotate some 10 knots later.

Then one day I discovered what the cunning bugger was up to. He thought rotating 10 knots faster than the VR book figure was safer in case of engine failure. But that wasn't the point. So on one of my take off rolls I glanced across the cockpit and was astounded to see him surreptitiously moving one leg to behind the control column and when I went to rotate at the book VR he jammed his knee behind the control column to impede its movement. The bastard, I thought. This is taking twitchiness too far.

Nearing VR on my next take off, I saw him move his knee move behind the control column and at VR I jerked the stick back hard against his knee causing a shout of pain. Even so, we had gone well past VR. I called out " I have a control column jamming - handing over control"

He leapt on to the wheel and rotated 10 knots fast as expected. After the gear and flaps were up I asked him if he had felt any restriction on the aft movement of the control column.

He didn't answer the first time, so I again asked him. His reply was that I rotated too early and that it was always better to rotate 10 knots or more past VR. And now listen to this beauty. I asked him why this was so and he replied that the Rolls Royce Dart engines operated more efficiently at higher speeds and the longer the aircraft stayed on the runway the more efficient the Dart would be if there was an engine failure. And that guy was a check captain! Twitchy pilots always have an excuse for their actions and if they cannot answer with logic they will invent a reason...

If nothing else I was pleased to see him limp for a few days until his knee recovered:ok:.

[Dream Land]

"Feet on the pedals - heels on the floor"To each their own, not the way I operate.

Cheers, D.L.

[Green Guard]

"Feet on the pedals - heels on the floor"
"Make sure you make NO inputs on the pedals during takeoff

and make sure you are on an aircraft carrier runway, with no crosswind at all

[411A]

...and he replied that the Rolls Royce Dart engines operated more efficiently at higher speeds and the longer the aircraft stayed on the runway the more efficient the Dart would be if there was an engine failure.

Hmmm, never knew that and I've got plenty of Dart flying in the past...I must pay attention more in ground school.:rolleyes:

OTOH, with the FAA, there was no specific Vr with either the F.27 (Fokker) or the F-27/FH227 (Fairchild)...only V1 and V2.
And rotation was at V2, not before, just as on four engine piston transports certificaed under CAR4b...and the F.27 (etc) was a -4b airplane.

[Green Guard]

and the longer the aircraft stayed on the runway the more efficient the Dart would be if there was an engine failure
Yes
but
How much the drag in the air (including ground effect)
is different from drag over the runway ?

[TyroPicard]

Since this started as an A320 thread I would like to point out...

1. A320 rudder pedals are designed to be used with feet fully up on the pedals, not heels on the floor. Steer with your heels, brake with the balls of your feet (feetballs?).

2. If IMC moving your head to locate the INT/RAD switch then looking back at the PFD might cause disorientation. Using the sidestick (S/S) eliminates the risk.

3. If you have your hand correctly positioned on the S/S you can easily transmit without any S/S movement. But if your hand is "near" the S/S you may well move it when you position your hand to transmit.

Imagine the worst possible case... EFTO in a crosswind with PF incapacitation.. as PNF where would you like your feet to be? On the floor?

[Bus Driver Man]

3. If you have your hand correctly positioned on the S/S you can easily transmit without any S/S movement. But if your hand is "near" the S/S you may well move it when you position your hand to transmit.

I agree. Checked it on my last flight. (Not during the flight ofcourse!)
You can inadvertently move the sidestick if you push the PTT switch without grabbing the sidestick. By grabbing the sidestick properly when pushing the PTT switch this is not the case.

[PantLoad]

Don't have an agenda with this question....honest, sincere question: Is there a published reference that dictates whether the heels are to be on the floor, or if the feet shall be fully on the pedals?

It's an interesting question (to me, anyway), and I honestly cannot remember reading anywhere that this is addressed.


Fly safe,


PantLoad

[Airbus_a321]

@tyro1. A320 rudder pedals are designed to be used with feet fully up on the pedals, not heels on the floor.....this is for shure NOT correct.

the optimised positioning is heels on the floor for T/O
and full up on the pedalstop for LDG

@tyroIf IMC moving your head to locate the INT/RAD switch then looking back at the PFD might cause disorientation.....if this should be the case you better should stop flying because of disorientation. BTW: I feel the toggle-switch. don't need to move my head like an owl

[Centaurus]

And rotation was at V2, not before

You are right. Long time since I flew the F27 and now so used to VR. Thanks for the good point.

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi TyroPicard,

If you have your hand correctly positioned on the S/S you can easily transmit without any S/S movement. But if your hand is "near" the S/S you may well move it when you position your hand to transmit.

If you use the RT switch on the centre console - then you definitely won't move the S/S. Once the AP is engaged - then feel free to use the PTT on the S/S.

On Take Off, I simply "cover" the pedals (with my heels on floor) as PNF. I'm ready if required - but I definitely don't add any input to PF.

[MainDude]

I'm stupefied about some of the nonsense that has been written on this thread.

Airbus have made many comments at instructor symposiums that they purposefully stay out of this debate. The books are silent, and will continue to remain silent on this issue.

If you have soft rubber shoes, feet on the floor can actually jam the rudder pedals. So, some companies dictate the types of shoes you wear. Others insist that with feet dragging/scraping a bit on the floor gives you more feel for fine rudder inputs. Also that for an RTO, you might inadvertently disconnect the auto brake.

There is also plenty of Airbus pilots who feel that it's the only control where you can feel what the other guy is doing. I want to know exactly what the other guys is doing, so you won't find my heals on the floor ever.

5 years on type now, and only once has someone squealed to me during a TO roll about my feet. That same person has also been fired from every company he has ever worked for, CRM being the major issue.

I think Airbus has a point, stay out of it. If someone want's the other way, deal with it. There's no right or wrong.

[*Lancer*]

I really hope that all the PNF Captains here don't sit there with their feet on the floor during a take off... :rolleyes:

[stilton]

Amazing, worked for three different Airlines over the last twenty eight years flying all different manufacturer's types with different philosophies and not one recommended or required the PNF to rest his / her feet on the rudder pedals during any phase of flight.


What an odd idea to promote with no positive but many negative possible outcomes. :eek:

[Airbus_a321]

PNF should be prepared to take over rudder and sidestick - certainly - but no way there is any need to physically step onto the rudder or to touch or even to clasp the sidestick as PNF - NO GO

[vilas]

In A320 forget about PNF there is no need even for PF to to keep his hand on the side stick all the time. You get it to do what you want and leave it alone. It is stabilsed platform aircraft.

[Uplinker]

Just a thought:

Do all the guys who keep their feet on the pedals when the other guy is flying also keep one foot on the brake pedal of their own car when they are driving - just in case they need to apply the brakes?

I remember being F/O in a Dash 8 having arrived on stand and the Cap put the park brake on and the engines to feather for the engines to cool down. Well, we both had our feet away from the pedals when the park brake sprang off and the aircraft lurched forward. We both accurately hit the foot brakes within about 0.0001 second!

During take-off I am not sure that PNF's feet and hands need to be actually on the controls, just nearby. I would rather they were not on the controls. I too very nearly called "STOP" on my take-off once because the rudder pedals were very stiff - as it turned out owing to the cap's size 10's !!

The Cap's have to trust a fully trained and released to line F/O (and vice-versa) without nannying him/her. If the aircraft departs from a reasonable flight path, and is not instantly corrected, then that would be the time to put feet and hands on the controls to take over.

[Hobo]

I really hope that all the PNF Captains here don't sit there with their feet on the floor during a take off...

I always kept (as Captain PNF) my feet on the floor, and my hands away from the thust levers and stick. If I had any doubt about the copilot's ability, I wouldn't have let him touch anything.

[*Lancer*]

How easy do you think it is to put your feet up to the pedals under max braking?

How easy is it to stop immediately with your hands not on the thrust levers?

[oceancrosser]

How easy do you think it is to put your feet up to the pedals under max braking?

How easy is it to stop immediately with your hands not on the thrust levers?

Easier than you seem to imply. I had to do high speed abort not too long ago, at a little over 130kts. While the RTO is impressive, moving ones limbs to the right places was not an issue.

PNF feet on the floor for this capt. Thank you.

[nitpicker330]

Blimey you guys get worked up over something so simple. :D

As a Captain I most certainly do keep my feet lightly ( without restricting ) on the pedals during critical phases of flight. In our company ( and I believe Airbus SOP ) the Captain takes over control in an RTO. I'd hope that all Captains are therefore always in position and ready to take over at a split seconds notice if they decide to STOP. :sad: I've had F/O's in the Sim let go of all controls at the RTO failure and veer off the side until I kept it straight. Another second to get my feet onto the pedals and it would have been game over.!!!!!! Damn. :D

During taxy as PM I do sometimes relax my feet on the floor but if I'm caught by a checker then I'll be in trouble......time and a place :ok:

Also approaching the gate the PM must also have his feet on the pedals near the brakes. Once again as a Captain I most certainly do. :sad:

Sometimes you can feel the other guys weight on the pedals as he incorrectly ( badly ) rests his feet, I then ask them to take the weight off please, problem solved. :ok:

Apart from that it's never ever been an issue in our company.

You can easily keep your feet lightly on the pedals without impairing movement and also keep you hand near the Sidestick. It's not rocket science but for Captains who are 100% responsible for the safe operation of their Aircraft ( the one they signed for ) at all times not to be ready in a split second to take over control during time critical manoeuvres is ..............just irresponsible :cool: not to mention stupid!! :ugh: