Do we still do NEOs?

[Sun Who]

BBC News - Libya unrest: UK plans to charter plane for Britons (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12545147)

I guess this is the sort of thing the military would have done as a Non-combatant Evacuation Operation in the past - when we had the capacity and hardware.

Or is it just that using the military in this situation might be considered provocative by Libya?


Sun

[T_Handle]

Sat on the river bank with a flask of luke warm tea (and no friends!),

Maggot on hook,

Line is cast,

waiting for bites:=

[MaroonMan4]

T-Handle,

I agree, and not biting to this thread, but I do find it ironic, the only boat that the MOD could send at the request of the FCO was one that was about to return to UK under SDSR to be scrapped!

And with the greatest respect to the Senior Service, what capability is this 'small' tub going to offer UK nationals in Libya?

It is these unstable and unpredictable events that make a mockery of the National Security Council and SDSR-UK plc maybe broke, and MoD/HMG/Industry procurement screw ups may have resulted in a huge black hole....

But are we as a nation sure in these uncertain times that we should be reducing our armed forces so quickly, and with such fervour ( and with what appears very little true use of the word 'strategic')?

[Pontius Navigator]

Curiously the Nimrod also had an NEO role when it was first employed. IIRC it could carry 46 pax in that role.

[minigundiplomat]

Sun Who,

try doing some proper journalism.

[teeteringhead]

And it does all rather highlight the uncertainties which will always face the military.

Never mind not knowing what will happen in five or ten years time; right now five or ten weeks is looking a bit tricky!

[Climebear]

The FCO has responsibility for the evacuation of Britsh nationals - a NEO is only used when (taking the wording from the old military task 4.2)

‘In cases where civil contingency plans prove insufficient, defence capabilities held for other purposes may be used to evacuate United Kingdom entitled personnel from countries where their lives may be at risk’

So step one is to evacuate individuals using civil means - hence the use of charter aircraft in Egypt. Only when civil options cannot be used will the military be used. As are Armed Forces are currently quite busy elsewhere, it is in the military's best interest to ensure that the FCO's plans are as robust as they can be in order to minimize any military involvement.

So in answer to the OP's question - yes they are; however, they remain the last (rather than the first) option.

Full details are available on the internet (that google thing really is clever) published by the MOD in the UK's Joint Warfare Publication 3-51 Non-combatant Evacuation
Operations. (http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/D0302742-2103-4C9D-9CE8-D6F2E6B1860F/0/20071218_jwp3_51_U_DCDCIMAPPS.pdf)

[Cows getting bigger]

Not a million years ago there would have been a brace of CH47 parked on the ground in Malta by now on the planning assumption that commercial means would manage to get most, but not all, EPs away (JWP 3.51). This would be a stopgap whilst HMS Ocean/Illustrious/Ark Royal steamed into to the area such that helicopters could operate a shuttle to the ships holding 12.1nm off-shore.

It would be naive to think that PJHQ haven't been tasked with looking at other options (above Cumberland etc) but it would be interesting to see whether there is a 'capability required' vs. 'capability available' gap. :sad:

[andyy]

Interestingly, Radio 4 reported this mornning that the Turks evacuated some of their Nationals in 2 x Ferries escorted by a Turkish Navy Frigate.

Geography is in their favour but I hope that we are planning something similar. I understand that there are approx 3000 UK Nationals living in Libya.

Edited to add that I believe 814 NAS is in the Med at the moment taking part in an ASWEX from Siciliy. I hope that they are on standby to take out the Sonar & get ready to to do a personnel lift.

[JackAirman]

I see the Irish are moving assests to Malta in anticipation.

'The Defence Forces have been tasked with providing an evacuation platform for the possible airlift of approximately 40 Irish citizens from Libya. The Air Corps Learjet departed Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel at 8.40pm and an Air Corps CASA aircraft is due to depart at 10.00pm.
Both Aircraft will fly to Valletta, Malta from where they will remain on stand by to fly to Tripoli to conduct the evacuation operation if required. Both aircraft are expected in Valletta by 06.00am (Irish Time) tomorrow morning. '

[Uncle Ginsters]

The capability is there. It just needs to be called upon.

This is a non-thread really.:D

[Sun Who]

Gents,

If there's no interest in this topic, that's fine (it was only an idle question based on reading an article in the paper) but I'm surprised at the assumption that I'm a journo - I don't think my posting history suggests that - and there are enough clues in my posts for people to work out my current line of employment.

Minigundiplomat,

I'm particularly surprised you jumped to the conclusion I'm a journo, we've exchanged PMs in the past.

Regards,

Sun.

[andyy]

I think the anwer to the OP question is NO. Rumours on another site that the "technical problems" given as the reason for the delay in getting the Charter Plane away yesterday was actually a refusal to fly by the aircrew (& who can blame then if you are a civvy who normally flies no where more dangerous than to Faro).

Compared to the efforts of some other Nations, pretty Pxxx Poor.

(Although to give a contrary view offered by MrsY - "No sympathy - they work abroad in dodgy countries for decent pay for their own reasons, they don't pay full taxes, they know (& take) the risk for the rewards they are given, no one makes them - they have to take personal responsibility for the decisions they make & they are the responsibility of their companies. End Of...". harsh but fair???)

[moggiee]

The BBC are reporting 1 RAF C130 inbound to Tripoli with another on standby in Malta.

[teeteringhead]

The FCO has responsibility for the evacuation of Britsh nationals .... I recall when once in MoD, being at a meeting with FCO about an NEO. The question was asked (chiefly for payment purposes!) as to where MoD responsibilities ended and FCO responsibilities started (and vice versa). The answer was worthy of Sir Humphrey (the speaker subsequently got his K!):

FCO man: "Clearly ..... (pause, puts fingertips together on table) .... the FCO retains responsibilities ....... (pause, strokes flowing silver locks) ...... in those areas .... (pause, smiles at befuddled military folk) ..... for which it is responsible!"

[Climebear]

teeteringhead

Either we were at the same meeting, or it is a regular occurance.

[teeteringhead]

Climebear this would have been about '97 or 98' so could have been Albania/Congo/Sierra Leone? We seem to have done lots then....

...... think I was the only airman (light blue) at the meeting, but I guess it is a regular occurrence. Yes Minister/Yes Prime Minister is by no means fiction ......

[Whenurhappy]

Andyy makes an interesting point - should we bother to rescue these 'merchant venturers'. Hjaving mixed with ex-pat communities in Saudi and elsewhere, I found them to the biggest bunch of whingers and 'put downers' about the UK. In Riyadh - heard many of them describe as 'not the Captains of Industry, rather, the warrant officers of industry'm

Nonetheless there remains the obligation to offer assistance to UK nationals in distress. I wonder how happy some of them are about returning to the UK - based on wjhat I have experienced, there will be a significant number wjo will face outstanding CCJs, criminal proceedings, un paid fines, CSA/maintenance payments....

[wiggy]

should we bother to rescue these 'merchant venturers'
To be fair Tony Blair was was quite happy/keen/falling over himself/ drooling with anticipation at .... ( delete as appropriate) to act as a salesman/facilitator for UK companies employing these "merchant venturers", so yes, maybe there is just a tiny bit of an obligation on HMG to get them the hell out of there.......

Having said that there is also an obligation, IMHO, on HMG to make sure the military are adequately resourced to perform such tasks.

[minigundiplomat]

Minigundiplomat,

I'm particularly surprised you jumped to the conclusion I'm a journo, we've exchanged PMs in the past.

Regards,

Sun.


We have indeed. Very sorry, it's an age th.... where was I?

[Cows getting bigger]

Answering the thread title, it would appear we do.

BBC News - RAF Hercules planes rescue 150 from Libya desert (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12588947)

Answering my 'capability' musing, it would also appear that we have no gap. :D

[Melchett01]

[QUOTE]Answering my 'capability' musing, it would also appear that we have no gap. [/QUOTE}

Whilst this is yet another example of the military doing the whole 'cavalry to the rescue' bit, I strongly suspect that the UK's 'slow' response has had as much to do with the military spending the best part of the last week working out what else would have to be cancelled or suspended to support this effort as it did political and diplomatic complacency.

I would put my Boss' pay packet on the fact that to mount the military response we have done so far, training or other operational taskings will have been cancelled because we can't manage to do both.

Despite pulling it out of the bag again, our capability gap is frankly getting so big that we will shortly get to the stage whereby if we want to do anything other than turn up for work in the morning something else will have to give.

[Uncle Ginsters]

Melchett,

Surely that's not a capability gap though, as events tonight have shown, the capability (or the core of it) is there. What you describe is surely overstretch!

[Melchett01]

What you describe is surely overstretch!

I'd see it as stretched to the point that holes develop. Let's be honest, it's not much of a capability if its only one deep!

[StopStart]

I would put my Boss' pay packet on the fact that to mount the military response we have done so far, training or other operational taskings will have been cancelled because we can't manage to do both.

Sorry, but the amount of training etc cancelled at the Secret Wiltshire Airbase to meet this task was negligible and the whole affair has had little or no effect on our flying programme. The Line have however put in a lot of work to get 'frames up and available. The only weakness demonstrated by all this was the continued lamentable manning of our eng lines when compared to the glorious "sharp end" :hmm: