Flying pay insurance.

[Al R]

Hopefully, the mods will allow this thread some leeway? I'm after some feedback.

For the past 4 or 5 months, I have been developing with Underwriters and reassurers; working towards bringing to market a flying pay insurance policy that will pay out an annual income for up to 5 years in the event that a flier loses flying pay due to a medical condition or injury. It will be bespoke, and geared towards the specific needs of military aviators, past and present.

It will be very well priced (in my opinion) and will offer cover up to the age of 65, in order to allow retired mil fliers to remain covered once they leave the Services and work, either flying on an ad hoc basis or get dragged towards the airlines. It will also have a shorter deferred period than the main existing provider, will offer cover for injuries received on Active Service, and will allow fliers to start cover up to the age of 55 (I am currently looking at someone starting at 56, but that might be one step too far).

It will allow cover to change at the time and point where mil fliers might elect to go down the PA route (I'm assuming that careerists will probably not want to fly for the airlines when they leave) and the rates will be reviewed in 5 year blocks for higher certainty, based on age. So, if I could plead for a few minutes of your time, I would be very grateful if I could get feedback on the following.
Are the one or two current providers considered and used widely?Is risk perception such that this sort of cover just isn't required?Are there any policy features that fliers might like to have included, or think would be useful, that currently aren't offered?Are current providers just too expensive? What sort of premiums are being paid (dependent on age of course).Any useful feedback, either public or private.. negative or positive, would be greatly appreciated - many thanks.

[1771 DELETE]

AL R
I think you are probably several years too late, are you really sure there is going to be a market for this? are there going to be any aircrew (RAF) left in another 10 years? i very much doubt it
Good luck with it, for my 30 years flying i never bothered with it, the assumption being that we are all young, fit and invincible and dont need insurance.

[minigundiplomat]

I looked at SP insurance a few years back, and decided against it. Too expensive - and 1771 has a point, if we didnt consider ourselves invincible, we wouldn't do the job much of the time.

Also those on PAS only recieve basic pay, so Im not sure how insurance would work?

However, I do know of some who have taken out SP insurance in the past, so there is a small market.

I know how much time and effort you invest in military personnel, so I wish you good luck Al, but fear you may be urinating in the face of geostrophic force in todays climate.

[Jambo Jet]

Probably get more takers if it insured against loss of flying pay due to being posted to a non-flying related job!

[Pontius Navigator]

I looked at SP insurance a few years back, and decided against it. Too expensive

My thoughts at the time too. The Corollary is that you keep away from the sawbones and shrinks as long as you can. When you start to go deaf and blind you then start to worry.

However they provided specs.

I never dared ask for a hearing aid and awaited until the Veterans' Agency gave me the money to buy some. By then however the NHS provided them for free.

[Kreuger flap]

So let’s get this straight. You want my feedback in order to help you make money? If you want my feedback then it is going to cost you a percentage of what ever you make. Please don't try and make out you are doing the military aviator a favour. You are just another insurance man trying to make money out of the military.

In my opinion this is a grubby little sales pitch. You can have that bit of feedback for free.

[Pontius Navigator]

KF, you are half right. Of ite course he is not doing it for free. You are also quite wrong.

Some people are very worried that they may lose their flying pay. If people like Al don't ask the right questions then the right policy will not be available. If the tenor of the answers is can't afford it as the premium is too high against the risk then the policy will not be written.

You can put the same argument for payment protection insurance. For some it is a rip off, for others complete peace of mind.

[Greenielynxpilot]

I wouldn't buy this sort of policy. What I would buy, however, is a policy that would reimburse some of the initial outlay involved in pursuing the fATPL (CPL+IR) in the event of losing a med cat at some point during the long process of getting a professional civvy licence.

Most insurance policies I investigated would only compensate you for the loss of flying pay you were already in receipt of. There is a substantial uninsured risk for anyone looking to invest up to £100k for a licence, and they may never get to the point where they earn flying pay (indeed - some even continue to pay to fly after they get their first job).

It would seem a fairly simple policy to set up. Applicant gets class 1 medical. Pays premium. In the event that any future medicals is no longer class 1, insurance pays out specified receipted actuals for flying training up to that date. Simples. I'd pay a reasonble premium for something like that.

[Kreuger flap]

If people like Al don't ask the right questions then the right policy will not be availableIf people like Al don't ask the right questions he doesn't make money. Simple as that.

You can put the same argument for payment protection insurance. For some it is a rip off, for others complete peace of mind.
Hmm.................
Lloyds sold me payment protection insurance that didn't cover me.......

Three million in the queue for compensation over PPI mis-selling................

Nearly three million people who took out payment protection insurance (http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/payment-protection-insurance) (PPI) sold by banks and other lenders could be in line for compensation totalling more than £2bn after the Financial Services Authority today issued new rules on how firms should handle the flood of complaints over mis-selling.
The Financial Ombudsman Service revealed that it had received more than 100,000 PPI complaints already, with nearly 2,000 received in the last week alone. In four out of five cases, the ombudsman found in favour of the complainant, and told the PPI seller to pay compensation typically of around £1,500.


The cover is currently the single most complained about product to the Financial Ombudsman Service, accounting for 44% of the complaints it receives. The ombudsman is finding in favour of consumers in 86% of PPI cases it handles, suggesting the banks are not handling the complaints properly, as consumers can only take their case to the ombudsman if they are unhappy with the response they have received from their bank.


Pontius please stick to reminiscing on prune and don't try and dish out financial advice.

[minigundiplomat]

KF,

I think you are being slightly unfair. Myself and Al have had fundamental disagreements on al sorts of stuff over the years, and have given each other no end of neat sh*t.
However, Al regularly visits stations and provides a much needed link with the financial realities of life.
Yes, he has to earn a living and nothing in life is free, but he genuinely cares about those serving, and those who have served.
Probably better than someone who doesn't understand, doesn't care and whom still has to make a sales target.
I know who gets my vote, even if it isnt for flying pay insurance.

[countdeblades]

i before e except after c

[glad rag]

"KF,

I think you are being slightly unfair. Myself and Al have had fundamental disagreements on al sorts of stuff over the years, and have given each other no end of neat sh*t.
However, Al regularly visits stations and provides a much needed link with the financial realities of life.
Yes, he has to earn a living and nothing in life is free, but he genuinely cares about those serving, and those who have served.
Probably better than someone who doesn't understand, doesn't care and whom still has to make a sales target.
I know who gets my vote, even if it isnt for flying pay insurance."

Yep, Rock On Tommy.

And Keep Safe, Mates.

GR

[charliegolf]

Al is pretty quick to give free advice quite often too.

CG

[Pontius Navigator]

KF, I wasn't, this time. giving financial advice. I was telling you that Al has every right to ask the question and get a civil answer.

[Thomas coupling]

It's probably me missing the point here: How can you plan to fly outside the service if you have been medically discharged from flying inside the service? Why then, is there a need for this insurance?

Can someone explain where I should have read the question properly please?

[LFFC]

Sounds like there could be a place for it. Consider a PA Spine pilot, say aged 50, leaving the RAF to join the airlines. Now that "bonding" seems to be a thing of the past, there will be quite an expense to pay for the type rating. This could perhaps be funded by their gratuity, but how do they offset the risk of loosing their medical category shortly after making the jump to the civilian world? Some sort of loss-of-licence insurance would be essential, but is that offered by their potential employer?

[Mightycrewseven]

Al

I am on service to age 55, which is some years off (thankfully!) With little or no chance of being assimilated to PAS, given my aircrew specialisation and current (and probably future) lack of PAS offers, I would be VERY interested in insuring my FP. I may, one day, not be as fit and healthy as I or the RAF would like and cannot afford to lose my 'specialist pay'.

Will be keeping my ear to the ground on this one.

[Thomas coupling]

Mightycrew7: all well and good if you DON't plan to fly outside, I would suggest. I.E: You lose your FP because of a medical glitch inside the MoD you probably won't be able to fly outside, so no amount of insurance will cover you for that. I guess then this insurance protects your FP whilst still serving?

Luchboxlegends: Be very very careful with LOL. It comes with the biggest god damn warning......

I spent 7 years changing our company LOL scheme to allow individuals to actually claim LOL if and when the dreaded medical failed.
The reason for this.....The LOL is just that - your license is lost (or revoked).
The CAA rarely, if ever, revoke licenses. Instead, they "suspend" them because no-one can tell whether you'll have a miracle cure, get better etc etc. There are rare exceptions: diabetes and terminal cancer are two. Here the license is removed permanently and you could then go onto claiming your LOL insurance.
What most medical claims allow for is for you to continue to fly in company with another pilot and under his/her supervision (assuming you are twin pilot ops). So if you work for an airline and you suffer a heart attack and fully recover, your licence will allow for dual pilot only ops. The good news is you keep your job, the bad news is no LOL payout.
If you had flown single pilot ops prior to the medical disaster that befell you - tough: you lose your job and you cant claim because the CAA will tell you to go fly for someone who operates dual pilot.:ugh: Wicked but true.

Now BALPA do offer a scheme (I believe) where they recognise this and make monthly payments towards "Loss of salary" insurance...u will need to look into this more deeply.

The bottom line:

Look at the LOL policy closely read what it says about your job description. For instance if it simply says: Profession of claimant: PILOT. You are well and trully stuffed when it comes to claiming for the above reasons - you will be expected to fly as dual pilot (by the insurance company and so they won't pay out).

I engineered the contract through a number of Lloyds syndicates to show the profession of the pilot at the time of their medical disaster to read: single pilot operations only. They signed up to it and voila to this day they have supported 2 recent claims where the pilot was single pilot ops and had no chance or didn't want to fly twin pilot ops.

READ THE small print

[LFFC]

Ah - now that's the kind of valuable input that I'm sure Al was looking for. Thanks Thomas.

[Al R]

Thomas,

Thanks for that, and to everyone else so far too.

As Minigun mentioned, the challenge is going to be in providing a portable, flexible, affordable product that will cater for those who get a flying allowance and those who don't, and which offers either an income or a lump sum. No one said it had to be easy..

[Talk Reaction]

Al

I paid for years for FP insurance - I can't remember the company, think there were only 2 and one had set amounts dependant on FP rate and the other allowed you to select in 10K steps. I was with the latter and got a letter perhaps 18 months ago saying they were no longer offering the policy, thanks for all your money to date, we're off (seemed wrong to me but there you go)

I would still be paying for it now were it available so I think you have a market. After all, it only needs a car accident/fall/get lamped in a pub and bye bye med cat.

I can't comment on transfer to civil side, seems sensible to me though.

I also pay for accident insurance (PAX type) as anyone in our job is wise to do given the deployment schedule so I also would be interested if it covered other aspects as you described.

Look forward to hearing more. Thanks

[Megawart]

Hi Al,

I looked into this after becoming PA and found 2 things:

1. The cost was extortionate at my age (45)
2. Nobody knew what PA was, hence the policies were only geared towards loss of flying pay.

I'd still be interested if there was a way of insuring my full PA pay against loss of flying medical cat.

Good luck

[Al R]

I'll certainly keep you informed.

The world of mil insurance is pretty fluid at the moment. My preferred insurer for RAF Groundcrew etc has just decided that no longer, can it protect them from the same loading that the infantry faces. Its probably been a while since adminers asked me to fill out an F010 for them.

I agree with what Minigun and one or two others mentioned about risk perception. When a married family man protects his phone handset from loss, but has no life cover (apart from the 4 times Death in Service benefit of course), it shows how invincible we think we are when young.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Or possibly the cynics amongst us have to come to realise over time that Insurance Companies do not sell you insurance as a favour and that Inevitibly somewhere in the hidden detail there is will be a clause that allows the thieving pikey barstards to not pay out :}

[Al R]

With a claim on a life policy, its a bit difficult to argue the facts.. as long as its not suicide, etc. But you're right - some I wouldn't touch with a barge pole. :ok:

An EOD operator, based in the UK is still rated higher than any FJ aircrew, Red Arrow pilot, or rotary stude. The major underwriters all gravitate towards particular niches within the RAF 'community'. It won't be unusual to place a FJ pilot with more than 1 carrier (for Life and Critical Illness Cover), for maximum effect.

The problem arises when people blag it on the underwriting forms. Crazy really, when most companies have a fair degree of latitude and flex anyway. If it costs 200k+ to raise a child to Uni age, it ain't worth jeapordising that for the sake of a quid or so extra loading because you have a few jars a week.

[dctyke]

Is a Grob insurance group one going up to a Typhoon at group 50 :E

" So you are a 22yr old Fg Off with 3yrs no claims on Tucano and Hawk....... and you now have a, er, Typhoon? " ££££££££££££ :eek:

[Pontius Navigator]

On invincibility, I once bought an insurance policy with a huge sum assured - £2000. The main selling point as far as the broker was concerned, a charming and trustworthy chap from Faldingworth, was the suicide clause which kicked in after 6 months.

Maybe the old chap knew a thing or two although I know of only one deliberate suicide.

Risk wise though I could not see the point of a suicide clause. At the time I had no intentions of getting married but the policy paid out hansomely at our 10-year point :).

[Al R]

but the policy paid out hansomely at our 10-year point http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif.


If one of those paid out well, it must have been in Groats? ;)