Oil Prices

[Sunfish]

Fill Your car up.

Watch what is happening in Libya on Twitter.

[Horatio Leafblower]

I wish I knew which particular website you were referring to before the PPRuNe auto-censor function kicked in :*

The national broadcaster's news page has an interesting coverage of Libya and the other N African "revolutions".

Are we seeing a shift towards greater democracy, or a shift towards greater Islamist power?

If this is an Islamist-driven 'revolution', and N Africa is held by religious states all looking towards Iran for guidance, what will the social, political, and military landscapes look like in 5 years from now?

A large block of nations intently opposed to Western culture and lifestyles, including the nuclear-capable Iran and Pakistan, holding 90% of the world's oil reserves? :eek:

Better do more than fill up the car. How many solar cells can we fit on the top surface of a Chieftain? :ooh:

[compressor stall]

It worries me what will fill the vacuum here.

Democracy only works well in societies where groups accept and respect losing an election. As people don't swing with their faiths as they can do with political ideology, in political climates where the parties are along secular lines, there will frequently remain a disaffected, unhappy, frustrated secular minority that may resort to whatever methods it sees to usurp the "elected" majority.

[Horatio Leafblower]

The one thing these nations all have in common is Western-friendly "dictatorship" government.

Stallie, I think you and I might be thinking along similar lines. Best we discuss this in great depth, on licenced premises, at the first opportunity.

[psycho joe]

Are we seeing a shift towards greater democracy, or a shift towards greater Islamist power?



That's an interesting question.

I would suggest probably neither. Gaddafi hates the islamic extremists, and Bin Laden hates Gaddafi. On the Other hand Gaddafi is not seen as a western puppet like Mubarek was, so he remains quite popular amongst the Libyan population. However, because Gaddafi doesn't rely on the US like Mubarak did, he doesn't give a rats rectum about western opinions, thus the uprising will be put down in a most bloody fashion.

A large block of nations intently opposed to Western culture and lifestyles, including the nuclear-capable Iran and Pakistan, holding 90% of the world's oil reserves?


Pakistan is a basket case but I believe that Iran will emerge as the biggest success story of our time. By and large the Iranian population is quite young and well educated with a strong desire for religious, cultural and political freedom. The old hardliners of the islamic revolution no longer come close to representing the population. I'd suggest that Arminijad would be feeling more than a little nervous by now.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I'd suggest that Ahmadinejad would be feeling more than a little nervous by now.

All the autocracies in the ME have been feeling nervous since about 1947.

Why? Because right in their midst is an example of a thriving western culture that is a constant siren call to their downtrodden masses.

A state that thrives under the rule of Law not man. Where Shiite Muslims are more free to follow their religion than they would be in Saudi Arabia.

Numerous attempts have been made to destroy that example of how life CAN be but all failed in large part because of the cold war that formed a backdrop to those times.

The reason Iran (and every other state in the ME) wants 'the bomb' or some other weapon of mass destruction is so the NEXT time Israel is attacked they won't be able to retaliate conventionally and win - like every other time - the way they could when the only nuclear powers were the USSR and USA.

Iraq is another potential example to the average Arab in the streets of Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia, Libya etc of what a secular democracy can mean for quality of life. Iran needs the bomb BEFORE Iraq really starts to thrive economically and socially.

A successful Iraqi democracy will be just as big a problem for the Middle Eastern autocracies as Israel has been since 1947.

I think we are in for war in the ME again. A war in the ME with a nuclear armed Iran hovering threateningly with the balance of power that a nuclear weapon provides is a worry indeed.

The west has lost its ability to deter aggressive ME autocracies from attempting to remove these examples of the superiority of western culture, the rule of Law, free markets/trade/separation of religion and state etc etc etc. Obama, Sarkozi, Merkel, Cameron, and western society in general, are perceived as weak and NOT capable of going truly postal on a perceived enemy/threat the way we were in earlier times. I think that will change BUT ONLY when western societies grasp what is at stake - survival.

As to suggesting 90% of the oil is there - only until we put the Environmentalist movement back in its box and start drilling again. The west has plenty of oil in the ground.

[oicur12.again]

“A state that thrives under the rule of Law not man.”

Except when it comes to human rights and international law.

“The reason Iran (and every other state in the ME) wants 'the bomb' or some other weapon of mass destruction is so the NEXT time Israel is attacked they won't be able to retaliate conventionally and win - like every other time - the way they could when the only nuclear powers were the USSR and USA.”

Ergo, when Iran chooses to attack Israel it will be a nuclear strike. Is that your assertion?

“A war in the ME with a nuclear armed Iran”. Except that Iran does not have nuclear weapons.

“….the superiority of western culture”.
As viewed by . . . . .a westerner I guess.

“free markets”. Really, where?

“perceived as weak and NOT capable of going truly postal on a perceived enemy/threat”

I assume you mean Pakistan and KSR? These are the true threats in the ME but instead of going “postal” on them the west is . . .. arming them. Financing them. Training them.

Why do you think that is?

[desmotronic]

Oil prices surged more than 6% Monday as antigovernment protests in the Middle East and Africa intensified, raising worries about possible supply disruptions.

Crude oil for April delivery gained $5.69, or 6.3%, to $95.40 a barrel.

257Email Print U.S. oil prices have been trading in a range between $88 and $95 a barrel since the start of the year but prices have been much higher in other parts of the world.

Brent crude, the benchmark European oil standard, hit a 2-1/2-year high of $105 a barrel before retreating slightly to settle at $102.52 a barrel. An overhang of supply has been keeping U.S. prices on the low side ... for now.

"All eyes are on the Middle East and North Africa crisis regarding potential disruptions in oil exports that could drive crude oil prices even higher," Myrto Sokou, an analyst at Sucden Financial, wrote in a research report.

Monday's spike follows violent clashes in Libya over the weekend that were spurred, at least in part, by angst over high unemployment. The unrest has left at least 233 people dead in Libya, according to Human Rights Watch.

Tensions remained high in the North African nation Monday, albeit a far cry from the tumult seen Sunday, when the violence and chaos came to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi's doorstep Tripoli, Libya's capital, for the first time.

BP confirmed Monday that it is preparing to evacuate about 140 families and non-essential staff from Tripoli. The oil company said none of its operations were impacted ... yet. But it has suspended preparations for a drilling project in Libya's western desert.

Shell Oil said it closed its Tripoli office, but employees are able to work from home. So far, only dependants of its expatriate staff have been relocated out of the country. "We continue to monitor the situation very closely," said Shell spokesman David Williams.

Here comes $4 gasoline
Libya produces 1.6 million barrels of oil a day, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration. By contrast, Nigeria produces an estimated 2.2 million barrels per day, making it Africa's largest producer.

"As long as the situation in this key oil-production region of the Middle East and North Africa remains so volatile, expect prices for the commodity to remain supported," said Ilya Spivak, an analyst at DailyFX, in a research report.

Gold prices also rose as investors sought the perceived safety of precious metals. April gold was up $14.30, or 1%, to $1,402.90 an ounce. Silver also jumped, rising 3.5% to $33.42 an ounce.

The unrest in Libya is part of a wave of protests across the region that started in Tunisia earlier this year and spread to Egypt, where antigovernment protesters toppled the regime of Hosni Mubarak earlier this month.

[Aerodynamisist]

Reports in the press this morning of Libyan air force mirages landing in Malta with the pilots seeking asylum after refusing to attack civilians.

one single seat mirage landed with 2 colonels on board would have been a bit of a squeeze.

[Jack Ranga]

You have got to admire the citizens of Egypt and Libya fighting for democracy at the very real risk of their lives. I hope they are rewarded with democracy rather than dictators worse than the incumbents. :ok:

[das Uber Soldat]

http://picchore.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/egypt-political-cartoon.jpg

oicur12.again (http://www.pprune.org/members/337083-oicur12-again) : This thread is an interesting discussion about the implications of the happenings occuring across the ME. Don't be a moron and try to turn this into a never ending pro/anti Israel/Western foreign policy argument. There are a zillion other places you can ruin instead.

[oicur12.again]

Das,

If you think that the discussion on this thread is anything BUT a western foreign policy argument then you are clearly more clueless about events in the ME than your clever cartoon would suggest.

The predictable, pre programmed ignorant comments from Chimbu have waived any rights to this debate being about oil prices and nothing more.

[das Uber Soldat]

Groan. Go back to Dailykos or reddit or christ knows where ever you came from.

I'm interested in the original thread topic, if you disagree with chimbu then PM him, otherwise this thread gets locked (and hence ruined) because you couldn't resist informing someone with a differing opinion to yours of how ignorant they must therefore be. :rolleyes:

Personally I think we are already seeing signs of a large spike in fuel prices due to the uncertainty, and with markets moving towards precious metals like gold to sure up prospects its going to only make the situation worse.

It will be interesting to see what form of new government emerge from the flames.

[gobbledock]

I would suggest probably neither. Gaddafi hates the islamic extremists, and Bin Laden hates Gaddafi. On the Other hand Gaddafi is not seen as a western puppet like Mubarek was, so he remains quite popular amongst the Libyan population.
Gadaffi doesn't like B747's either.

Personally I think we are already seeing signs of a large spike in fuel prices due to the uncertainty, and with markets moving towards precious metals like gold to sure up prospects its going to only make the situation worse.

GOLD (http://www.kitco.com/charts/livegoldnewyork.html) 02/21/2011 13:15 Bid 1406.60 Ask 1407.60 +17.50 +1.26%
SILVER (http://www.kitco.com/charts/livesilver.html#ny) 02/21/2011 13:14 Bid 33.91 Ask 33.93 +1.25 +3.83%
Paper money is on its way into the history pages. The astute know it and are buying up on Gold and Silver, a prudent and wise investment.
Oil will always remain volatile but without a doubt the current problems in the ME are only just the beginning. Wait, watch and see.

[oicur12.again]

"....because you couldn't resist informing someone with a differing opinion to yours of how ignorant they must therefore be."

The "opinion" was introduced into the debate by Chimbu.

As for money. Yes, the dollar is over, the world will return to a gold/metals based system. The US economy is in serious trouble and oil will head north again big time.

Iran is a key player in unplugging the western status quo wrt kish bourse and oil trade outside of the petrodollar system. The nuclear bogeyman in Iran is manufactured as a way of softening up the American public for the next round in the resource wars.

[Peter Fanelli]

I'm interested in the original thread topic, if you disagree with chimbu then PM him, otherwise this thread gets locked (and hence ruined) because you couldn't resist informing someone with a differing opinion to yours of how ignorant they must therefore be.


Seriously, do you really expect this thread to survive here?
Apart from the obvious effect on the cost of aviation fuels the subject has zero relevance in this particular forum.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Why shouldn't this thread stay here. Doesn't a spike in il prices effect our industry in Australia?

So far I note that the spike in oil is merely trader reaction to the FEAR of oil shortages that CURRENTLY don't exist. As of this time oil has not stopped flowing from Libya or anywhere else...Egypt has been a net importer of oil for a while and Bahrain doesn't have that much either. The Saudis have stated that IF oil stops flowing from Libya they will make up the difference...about 1.5 million barrels per day. I am sure the Peak oilers will then say "They are bluffing - they don't have the capacity or the excess oil".

If you think you can discuss the current crisis in the ME and its possible effects on oil prices without taking into consideration the greater ME situation well I think that is naive in the extreme.

Except when it comes to human rights and international law.

Run that past me again? Only one state in the ME actually protects individuals rights...just because the individual rights they protect are not those of the citizens of the countries that have been attacking them for 64 years you seek to condemn them?

Tell me again who are currently murdering their own citizens because they want to enjoy the obvious fruits of democracy and free markets/trade?

Tell me again who executes its homosexual citizens?

Tell me again who turns a blind eye (at the very least) to honour killings of young women who fall in love with the 'wrong' man.

Tell me again who exports Islamic Fascism/Terrorism to the west?

Was it Israelis who recently slashed with a Stanley Knife and bashed with a metal pipe and piece of concrete a Teacher in the UK for the crime of teaching Muslim girls?

Israel is functionally equivalent to Australia or New Zealand in respect to its political system, legal system and its protections of its citizens rights. 100s of 1000s of Muslim Arabs live peacefully within the State of Israel - mostly illegal immigrants. Why do you suppose they chose to stay there?

I think Iran does want the bomb - why should that be a surprise? India has it, Pakistan has it and Israel has it. The reason the US is arming the Saudis and the Emirates is because the Saudis and Emirates are VERY worried about Iran.

I probably used the wrong word in my last post - culture instead of democracy. Although I firmly believe western culture is superior to many cultures extant in the ME. Just because western culture is not perfect doesn't mean its not better than others. Just because our markets/globalisation/trade practices are not perfect doesn't mean they are not better than what exists in most of the ME.

The west doesn't have to be perfect it just has to be better. If you think its not better go and try Pakistan or Egypt or Libya or Saudi Arabia.

I am not particularly worried about what is happening right this instant in the ME but I am worried about what is possibly coming down the pike. Democracy in the ME - whether its in Israeli or Iraq (in time) - is a threat to the surrounding Autocracies. We are witnessing right now how they deal with a threat to their power from their own people. Their own people are, in my view, motivated to a great extent by the possibilities they see for a better future under a democratic system with their individual rights to live their lives as they see fit protected by the rule of Law. Israel and Iraq are examples right on their doorstep.

The UN is a sick joke - with all that is going on in Libya etc at the moment what did they do? Passed yet another resolution against Israel for building some apartments on 'occupied land'.

Human rights? Open your eyes oicur12.

70% of UN resolutions are against the only functioning and thriving democracy in the ME and ignore utterly the 'human rights' violations of every other state (all autocracies) in the region. Its long past time the west stopped funding the UN.

$100/barrel oil is as damaging to the world economy in its current fragile state as $150/barrel oil was a few short years ago.

A wider war in the ME - which I think is not far off - would send oil towards $200/barrel.

Is that reason enough for the west to go 'postal' in the ME?

We have been to war for less.

Has the west the capacity or heart to do so? Remains to be seen.

Weather wise we seem to be reliving the 70s - politically it feels like 1938.

[Shell Management]

$100/boe - let the good times roll!
Its certainly good for the helicopter sector as it will push expo efforts to deepwater.

The Iranian naval movement into the Med is a worrying development and probably the reason the British PM is in Egypt.

[oicur12.again]

I am not for a second suggesting that the actions of religious nutters in KSR or Pakistan or Egypt or Libya should be condoned.

But I would caution against portraying Israel as a guiding light on the hill. Most experts of international law have condemned Israeli aggression on many occasions. Kill ratios 10 to 1 and sometimes 100 to 1. Civilians targeted by F-16’s dropping LGB’s and phosphorus. Denying settlers drinking water. The manufactured reasoning for fighting a proxy war with Lebanon recently. Shatila and Sabra. The list goes on.

“Saudis and Emirates are VERY worried about Iran.”

The Saudis are very worried . . . about Iranian off reservation oil deals that could hurt the Saudi coffers big time.

“Although I firmly believe western culture is superior to many cultures extant in the ME.”

Better FOR WHO? Since when was it a competition that required one to vanquish the other?

[Jack Ranga]

Its long past time the west stopped funding the UN.

I believe one of the only countries in the west to be fully up to date with their UN 'obligations' is Australia :yuk:

I believe the US refuses to pay up due to the rampant corruption within the UN :D

[Mr. Hat]

Word is from Lybia: 1000 civilians dead.

[Maxweight]

Word is from Lybia: 1000 civilians dead

Yes and a member of the Libyan youth movement ,who is in the UK at the moment has stated that many of the killings have been carried out by mercanaries from other African countries.
Some of these mercanaries have been captured and with the defection to Malta of 2 pilots it would appear as though the defence of the country is in a state of collapse!:(

[Chimbu chuckles]

Better FOR WHO?

Better for everyone except dictators and despots.

Since when was it a competition that required one to vanquish the other?

Well, for at least several 1000 years near as I can tell. Doesn't mean we should like it or embrace it but it does seem to be a part of the human condition - so maybe we have no other alternative than to accept it.

States go to war for reason that are almost never what they say are the reasons.

I note there is now a Muslim Cleric in Egypt - long an advocate of attacking Israel - whipping up that fervour again...and crowds, reportedly millions strong, of people are responding positively to his rhetoric.

Power Line - Bad Vibrations From Cairo (http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2011/02/028418.php)

Are the UN sanctions against Israel really about an occupied Gaza and West Bank? If that were the case where are the sanctions against Turkey for its on going occupation of Cyprus. Or against China for its on going occupation of Tibet?

10% of what was Germany in the 1930s is now Poland...seen any Germans strapping bombs to themselves or lobbing rockets into Poland?

The fact is if State A attacks State B repeatedly and loses then State A can expect to lose territory. Israel used to occupy all the Sinai as well as Gaza, West Bank and Golan heights - when Egypt swore off attacking Israel again Israel gave the Sinai back to Egypt - Syria and the Palestinian territories have never stopped attacking Israel so they remain occupied.

The fact remains that all this unrest has come as the ME autocrats recognise that the US is now governed by a left wing dove not a right wing hawk. The deterrence factor of a hawkish US under Bush is gone. We're back to the Carter era of left wing dovish foreign policy and its results.

Libya utterly capitulated and renounced its policy of state sponsored terrorism and desire to aquire weapons of mass destruction after Bush et al removed Saddam Hussien. Gaddafi was scared ****less of the US and its allies just a few short years ago but now feels no compunction in killing any number of his citizens to protect his power. I note that recently Libya was voted into the chair of the UN Human Rights Commission - surely the UN is taking the piss? I guess not since its hallowed halls:yuk: have long become the stamping grounds of numerous (mostly, but not exclusively, African) autocracies.

Pajamas Media A Snapshot of Today’s United Nations (http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/a-snapshot-of-todays-united-nations/)

Like the League of Nations that preceded it the Un has seen its day in the sun.

Galtieri didn't attack the Falklands for oil or because the real estate had any intrinsic value to Argentina. He was a military dictator and the Junta was shaky and he needed to divert the attention of Argentinians towards an externality. The UK had just voted in Thatcher and she was probably viewed by the military junta as a 'weak female' who would not have the balls to come all the way to the South Atlantic and take the Falklands back. Years of defence budget cuts had gutted the UK military and these two factors may have reduced the UK's deterrence factor to a level, in the minds of the Argentinian dictatorship, that indicated to them they could take Isla Malvinas back cheaply and shore up domestic support for a while.

They were wrong. They were beaten convincingly, lost power and Argentina today is a very different place. Arguably a much better place.

Bin laden declared war on the west for reasons that included 'Jewish women walking bared armed in Mecca' (utterly impossible) and because the US had a very large military force camped in SA (long gone). He is still at war with the west. Why is that?

I am going to suggest, again, that its because western democracies and their values represent a threat to all that male dominated islamic autocracies and theocracies hold dear - power.

Plenty of reasons to go to war - just none of them being espoused by the people who want that war - nor being reported on by the Lame Stream Media - nor being condemned by the UN.

The other factor at play in the ME is 1000s of years old. All over the ME Shia majorities are being oppressed by Sunni minorities. Bahrain is merely one example. Bahrain is viewed by Iran, a Shia theocracy, as a legitimate part of Iran...like China views Taiwan. Shia/Sunni emnity goes right back to who killed Mohammed. Saudi Arabia is Wahabi - yet another version of Islam that oppresses Shiites and they 'own' Mecca and Medina.

PLENTY of motivation there for Iran seeking WMD.

So yes I think there is a huge problem in the ME and it will impact energy prices and impact them more than in the past because of the increased reliance on ME oil thanks to moron Greeny energy policies over the last decades.

I suspect that the peoples of the west are about to be reintroduced to the results of voting into power weak leadership that is incapable of maintaining the wests deterrence factor on ideological grounds. Its Neville Chamberlain all over again...Peace in our Time :ugh:

Our only hope is that, historically speaking, when the west truly perceives an overt threat to its values and survival and goes utterly postal on that perceived threat it unbeatable...who would have believed in 1939 the west could beat Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Militarist Japan...we need to roll out another Churchill, Roosevelt or even a Bush.

We'd have been better served not renouncing the 'Big Stick' in the first place.

Politics, human nature, economics and war seem akin to climate - unavoidably cyclical.

[Normasars]

What Chimbu said!:ok:

[oicur12.again]

Chimbu,

Excuse me if I ignore most of your “lets bomb brown people cos they aint like me” nonsense. Most of your points are simple subjective views not worth arguing over.

But there are a few points worth considering.

“I note there is now a Muslim Cleric in Egypt - long an advocate of attacking Israel - whipping up that fervour again”

Yep, you are probably correct. This, however, does not represent the majority opinion. Just like the majority of Americans do not support the advocates of attacking Iran who are also “whipping up . . . .fervor”.

Unlike the Egyptian cleric though, the American extremists will probably get their way, just like they did with Afghanistan and Iraq. Any attack on Iran will be sold as a pre emptive defense of Israel but will in fact be motivated by money, oil and ….more money. It sounds like you are buying the same goods from the folks that sold us WMD locations in Iraq.

Standby for a false flag operation.

“…the US is now governed by a left wing dove not a right wing hawk”.

No, the US is governed by Obama who will do exactly what the power brokers instruct him to do, just like Bush and Clinton before him. The days of “presidentialised politics” such as Carter and Reagan are long gone.

“Libya utterly capitulated and renounced its policy of state sponsored terrorism”

Libya changed its stance as a result of back room deals in London that had nothing to do with terrorism and much to do with oil.

“Bin laden declared war on the west for reasons that included 'Jewish women walking bared armed in Mecca”

OBL was motivated by US troops still stationed in KSR many years after a handshake promise to have them removed. Richard Clarke in testimony to Congress indicated that Washington was well aware that such troop presence years after SH was ejected from Kuwait could possibly have dire consequences. And it did, in 2001.

So Chimbu, Do you think high oil prices are good or bad for Washington policy makers. Is strife in the ME to be avoided or encouraged?

[43Inches]

Regardless of the cause it is rising;

West Texas Crude up to $99US a barrel overnight, Brent Crude now over $111US and Australia is paying in the region of $111US, through singapore trade. The Brent crude increase was over $5 in one night.

The IATA Jet fuel price average was at $119US ex refinery per barrel on the 18th Feb, a 39% increase in a year.

Unless the issues are resolved fast there is some pain coming for aviation again.

[M14_P]

Yep the dollar is over alright I agree with that. The monetary system was flawed from day 1. The idea of labour for income, profit based system on unlimited growth is obsurd and is only going to lead the world to self distruction. The world is in debt, and it is impossible to get out of debt, the more $ there is, the more debt there is. The only way to have no debt, is to have no money. Think about it.

We have mistreated, and abused the ME for such a long time, no wonder they hate us. They have every reason to, and to refuse democracy. If the US goes in there this time, they will lose. I don't reckon this will be a fake war like the war against Japan or Vietnam, or Iraq (in each case, were provoked and allowed to happen from the point of the US), this will be 100% real, and will be for survival.

Chimbu,

Come on, you can't put Churchill, Bush and Roosevelt in the same sentence....
Churchill was the only 1 fighting a real war, defending his country from a real enemy at the time...

[The Professor]

"So Chimbu, Do you think high oil prices are good or bad for Washington policy makers. Is strife in the ME to be avoided or encouraged?"

The global monetary system has effectively become tied to an oil standard in place of the gold standard with the greenback the weapon of choice.

Rising oil prices could prop up the dollar in the short/mid term and stave of collapse of the US economy for another administration to worry about.

This could be the beginning of the end for the American empire and this will be coincident with an increase in violence in the Middle East.

The key is what happens in Saudi.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Sorry but I don't 'do' left wing conspiracy theories. UK 'deals' with Libya are to be deplored but they came after Gaddafi had the **** scared out of him. To my way of thinking to oust Hussien and stop Gaddafi with only one short war was time and money well spent. Yes innocent Iraqis died but Saddam was killing 10s of 1000s of his own people anyway. Unfortunately in real life you often only get to pick between two bad choices.

Saddam in power until his death and replacement with one of his psycho sons would have been better or worse for Iraqis?

So Chimbu, Do you think high oil prices are good or bad for Washington policy makers.

High oil prices are very bad.

Is strife in the ME to be avoided or encouraged?

Neither.

Ponder the results of every UN negotiated peace deal. All they did was ensure another war at a later date. Wars that go to their natural conclusion seem to resolve things in a more permanent fashion.

Germany, Italy and Japan were utterly vanquished and subsequently became our friends and trading partners. The ideologies that spawned Nazism, Fascism and Militarism were so utterly discredited in 1945 that, aside from isolated terrorist attacks from disaffected Nazis that went on into 1947, NO ONE in those countries would even admit to themselves that they had supported them in 1939 - and the VAST majority of Germans, Italians and EVERY Japanese most certainly DID support those ideologies in the 30s.

There is every indication that Iraq may go the same way left to their own devices. A bit different to the situation that existed post Gulf War 1.

Vietnam was the same - the US and its allies were convincingly beaten and everyone moved on to eventually become, if not friends, at least trading partners.

Had Israel, alone or with help, been allowed to 'finish' things during Yom Kippur or the 6 Day War and utterly discredit the ideologies that attacked them would the ME be a better place today for the average Arab?

I think it would be.

Whatever regimes are running Egypt, Libya etc in a few months will need to export oil...so hopefully this oil spike will be short lived. Even 3-6 months of very high oil prices will drive the west back into stagflation and recession.

But make no mistake - a UN brokered group hug will resolve nothing in the ME. It hasn't in the last 65 years and it won't in the next 65. The ONLY thing that will halt Islamofascism is to utterly discredit it in the eyes of EVERY Muslim.

Either lots of people die in a short time frame or a long one, but either way a lot of people will die.

I don't find anything about the above the least bit attractive but history shows it is the way of things.

[aussie027]

Chimbu,
Some very astute comments in all your posts in this thread.
Your comments re history in last post are certainly correct.
The UN has been basically bloody useless since its inception. Stated goals were admirable, esp after 2 devastating world wars and looked good on paper but useless if they cannot or will not be enforced.
Korea is another example of what you mentioned. Had the war continued against the North and China if necessary et al the countries future and the lives of millions would have been completely different.
If the war had escalated further between the west and communism then the Geopolitics of the entire world would likely have changed dramatically and the cold war would have gone hot and been decided in the 1950s.
Too late now, and the world has been been paying for it in all sorts of ways for 60years and will continue to do so.:ugh::ugh:

[oicur12.again]

“Yes innocent Iraqis died but Saddam was killing 10s of 1000s of his own people anyway.”

This is not why the US invaded Iraq. SH was a son of a bitch, but at least he was “our son of a bitch”. This quote from a time when the west was assisting Iraq destroy Kurdish villages by selling them weapons.

The west didn’t give a rats ass about SH “killing his own people”. You may be the only one that did.

“Had Israel, alone or with help, been allowed to 'finish' things during Yom Kippur or the 6 Day War”

What exactly do you mean by “finish things”? Are you aware of why one former Israeli PM cannot travel abroad to seek medical attention?

[Zapatas Blood]

Operation Cyclone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone)

This makes some interesting reading about how we funded "islamofacism"

[Chimbu chuckles]

oicur12 you need to spend less time listening to/reading Noam Chomsky and more time watching what actually happens in the world around you.

his is not why the US invaded Iraq. SH was a son of a bitch, but at least he was “our son of a bitch”. This quote from a time when the west was assisting Iraq destroy Kurdish villages by selling them weapons.

The US helped Iraq in its 8 year war with Iran. Whatever faults Saddam had - and they are legion - he was a SECULAR dictator.

MUCH later when Saddam gassed the Kurds, an ethnic minority in the North who wanted to form their own state and to take their oil with them, the US enforced a no fly zone - as they did when Saddam was attacking the Marsh Arabs in the south at the same time, to protect them.

What exactly do you mean by “finish things”?

I mean going all the way to Damascus instead of stopping in the Golan Heights. Or do you think WW2 would have been resolved permanently by the Allies calling it a day at the Rhein or Okinawa?

Are you aware of why one former Israeli PM cannot travel abroad to seek medical attention?

Please tell us what Chomsky thinks - I am sure we'd all find it fascinating.:ugh:

ZB go on youtube and search for videos of Yuri Bezmenov - a KGB defector in the 70s - and here him telling what he was trained to do in various 3rd world countries. The 'Cold War' was real.

[oicur12.again]

“MUCH later when Saddam gassed the Kurds, an ethnic minority in the North who wanted to form their own state and to take their oil with them, the US enforced a no fly zone”

Chimbu,

The gas attacks occurred BEFORE the no fly zone. The no fly was only set up AFTER SH went off script by invading Kuwait. You are basing your argument on an incorrect time line.

When the gas attacks were occurring, the west did very little, except sell them some of the gear to do it, including the chemicals.

So when you use the justification to invade Iraq “killing his own people”, he was. Yes, indeed. And it was with western approval and assistance. But "killing his own people" was NOT why the west manufactured a reason to invade in 2001.

[Zapatas Blood]

I think CC wouldnt be so gung ho if he opened his eyes to some history and actually knew something instead of spouting off the latest musings from the Conservative Weekly.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Iraq-Iran war ran from 1980-1988.

The US helped Iraq with Helicopters and other conventional weapons early in that conflict.

The Kurds were gassed near the end of that war in 1988. Why would they have no fly zones BEFORE they were needed:rolleyes:

The chemical precursors for the gas attacks came from Egypt, Netherlands, India, Singapore, West Germany and some from private US companies after Reagan delisted Iraq from the list of state sponsors of terrorism (silly thing to do I admit).

Note the word 'precursors' - should we all assume every time a country buys chemicals that they will be used to make WMD?

When the west found out what Saddam had done after GW1 they (US and allies) enforced no fly zones in 1991/92.

This quote from a time when the west was assisting Iraq destroy Kurdish villages by selling them weapons.

Your assertion is that the 'the west' (US and it allies) gave Iraq weapons to assist him to carry out genocide against Kurds. That is wrong, baseless and, quite frankly disgusting.

You hate the US so much you just cannot see reason.

Could you perhaps explain why the US (NATO) bombed Christians in Bosnia to protect Muslims from the ethnic cleansing that was extant when the left wing EU had stood by and done nothing for years?

Or perhaps explain why the US went into Somalia (no oil there). Could a reason be that they wished to try and avoid Somalia becoming a haven for Islamic Terrorism?

The US (Let alone 'the west') is NOT the bad guy on the world stage. They are not perfect and they make mistakes and they sometimes back people who, in hindsight, may not ALWAYS have been the best choice.

I prefer to believe they were the best of a bunch of bad options at the time.

The facts are that for the entirety of the 20th century, and so far the 21st century, western democracies have been forced to fight wars. German Imperialism in WW1, Fascism/Militarism in WW2, Maxism/Stalinism throughout the Cold War and the rise of Islamofascism in the later part of the Cold War and until this day.

Western Democracies didn't start any of those wars.

What would you suggest was a better path than that which the US and its allies have taken?

If you think western democracy and all that relatively free markets have given you is so terrible why don't you sell your cars/houses/ etc and take your families to one of the many alternatives - I am sure they will love the change in their life circumstances.:ugh:

Personally I think a little bit of reverse flow in the boat people trade would be a very good thing if it means we rid Australia of people who don't love Australia and everything it stands for....while recognising our democracy is not perfect and doesn't NEED to be perfect....it just needs to be better than the alternative.

[SgtBundy]

CC - while I agree with most of your sentiments, the fact of the matter is Iraq II was an unneccessary action that was not started by Iraq. The entire lead up to the war was farcical - there was no evidence of WMDs before or since, the weapons inspection teams were hampered at every step in a rush to war. The arguments that Saddam was tied to terrorism were without evidence. The idea of regime change was BS because there were plenty of more critical examples of dictators to take down that are still in power. If anything all the war did was become a proving ground for terrorism training once the vacuum of Saddam's power took effect, and turn the country into a meatgrinder that is still playing out today.

I still cannot fathom why the Iraq invasion had to occur. I can only imagine the real reasons are known only to Cheney and his associates and we will probably never know the truth to it. It sure as hell was not because of the propaganda pumped out to the public - unfortunately it was swallowed hook, line and sinker.

I just wonder if the results in Afghanistan would be better if all those resources and lives were not wasted on some ideological goal in Iraq.

[oicur12.again]

“The Kurds were gassed near the end of that war in 1988. Why would they have no fly zones BEFORE they were needed.”

The US did not have the "no fly zones" in place during the gassing incidents. Your statement indicated that the US set up no fly zones in order to protect the Kurds as copied below:

“MUCH later when Saddam gassed the Kurds…..the US enforced a no fly zone”

This is incorrect.

“Your assertion is that the 'the west' (US and it allies) gave Iraq weapons to assist him to carry out genocide against Kurds. That is wrong, baseless and, quite frankly disgusting.”

According to excerpts from a Senate report published in the New York Times, the US Department of Commerce continued exporting bacillus anthracis, brucella melitensis, clostridium perfringens, clostridium botulinum, histoplasma capsulatam, clostridium tetani, and escherichia coli to Iraq until 1989, with full knowledge that these chemicals had been deployed for domestic use. Some of these chemicals were dispensed using “dual use” Bell helicopters purpose built for export for agricultural use to bypass restrictions on arms sales.

According to an article in The Los Angeles Times, the Halabja attacks were conducted using expertise and intel obtained from the US military including sat pics provided by the CIA.

"Could you perhaps explain why the US (NATO) bombed Christians in Bosnia to protect Muslims from the ethnic cleansing that was extant when the left wing EU had stood by and done nothing for years?"

Because it was in the geopolitical interests of western (US) policy makers. Providing safe routes for Caspian oil and gas via AMBO, permitting the establishment of western military bases such as Bondsteel, countering a growing Russian versus EU influence in Europe.

Governments only ever act out of self-interest. We clearly disagree on this point.

"Or perhaps explain why the US went into Somalia (no oil there)."

Somalia is important to western interests for two main reasons. It is strategically important as it sits at the choke point for oil travelling from Eilat to markets in Asia. Control of this choke point is critical to provide a relief valve for if (when) Iranian actions threaten the Strait of Hormuz. This is the same reason for US military buildup in locations such as Djibouti and missile strikes against “terrorists” in Yemen.

Somalia has no known oil reserves but Conoco, Chev(Tex) and Amoco are itching to commence exploration and drilling and already have signed exclusive contracts.

“If you think western democracy and all that relatively free markets have given you is so terrible why don't you sell your cars/houses/ etc and take your families to one of the many alternatives”

This is such a common failing in debate. “I dare to discuss the failings of the system within which I operate therefore I should reject all components of the system.”

You are clutching at straws with this line my friend. If you take the time to read my posts, I have NEVER commented on the merits of “relatively free markets”. You are attempting to debate an argument I have never made. “Free markets” can operate independently from the geopolitical shadow plays that are a hallmark of modern western empire building.

[Jack Ranga]

oicur, would you mind using the quote button. Just above where you are typing your text, 3rd from the right.

Put your cursor over the start of where you want to highlight, hold the left mouse button down and drag it to the end of the text, release your mouse button and then click on that third button.

[Zapatas Blood]

Chimbu mate,

If you cant see the resource wars unfolding in front of your very own eyes then you have not been paying attention.

The US/UK/western allied war machine will roll on doing whatever damage is required in order to secure energy on the right terms and sold on the right market for the right reasons.

Africa will become a bigger player in the oil game than before and positioning the military might as this unfolds is already happening.

Terrorism is the new communism, it will be used to divert the sheeples attention until one day the terrorists will be defeated. It will be the same day that the oil runs out, coincidently.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

The ol' oil debate again......

Market jitters caused by speculators...nothing more than that!

Whilst all this is going on...the Saudis quietly increase there production output to capitalise on the windfall...which also is amazing considering how long it takes to go ex-terminal to delivery...doesn't happen overnight. Spivs and spinners playing around with a futures market...laughing at us whilst we pay through the nose for a not so scarce commodity.

[Jack Ranga]

Market jitters caused by speculators...nothing more than that!

Yep, and who is making the money when the speculators are involved?

Truth is, there are alternative fuel sources when oil runs out. No one will invest in them until the oil companies, vehicle producers etc have made every last cent that they can at the highest profit they can.

[Gnadenburg]

There's a lot of crap in this thread. The Middle East is not a jigsaw puzzle. You can't ever put the pieces together to get a pretty picture.

I mean going all the way to Damascus instead of stopping in the Golan Heights.

There's some great books out on Yom Kippur Chimbu. Have a read of them.

Israel was defending the Golan in 73. Knocking Syria out of the war would have been a difficult task. The Syrians were in a position to counterattack prior to a cease fire, having been restocked by the Russians. Add to this Iraqi divisions and the Jordanians opening up another front. And of course, the ultimate threat, Soviet intervention.

Interestingly, just read a book by an IAF pilot, who lead an 'accidental' airstrike that decimated a Syrian armored push on the Golan that was about to result in Israeli capitulation. Sheer a$$. The Israeli Air Force was more lucky than leadership smart during the 73 war. Would their luck have held up in prolonging the war? Significant reinforcements of SAM-6 would probably led to unrecoverable attrition of fighter crews.

[Zapatas Blood]

Somalia is believed to have significant oil deposits that will be exploited as soon as calm returns.

[gobbledock]

This could be the beginning of the end for the American empire and this will be coincident with an increase in violence in the Middle East.

Empire in their own minds. The empire is already dead. 14 trillion in debt and rising, the greenback is worth ****e, they are broke already.
On top of this they are trying to raise the debt ceiling at the moment, if this happens that will absolutely drive the final nail into the coffin of a once prosperous nation. Write your epitaphs now, they are done.
Perhaps the U.S government can borrow back some of the money that they have allowed the Illuminati, sorry I mean the Federal Reserve System to pilfer ?

[Zapatas Blood]

Three part reasonably accurate summary of where things are going.

YouTube - Pt 1/3 - Gerald Celente - On the Edge with Max Keiser - Global insurrection - 02-25-2011 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej7ocQ5quqc&feature=player_embedded#at=235)

The hypocrisy is dripping from every corner as the west has backed Egypt and Saudi by arming, training and financing brutal domestic militia for decades but at the first hint of civil disobedience in Libya and they will send in the Marines.

The lesson to be learnt - if your Government complies with western commercial interests, like Egypt and Saudi then we - the west - will assist your leaders in crushing you if you dare complain.

Iran/Iraq/Indonesia/Phillipines/Egypt/Saudi/Chile/Nicuragua/Honduras/El Salvador. And others

[Zapatas Blood]

Here is a quote from Gen Wesley Clark from an interview with Amy Goodman:

So I came back to see him (a high ranking military officer in the Pentagon) a few weeks later, and by that time we were bombing in Afghanistan. I said, “Are we still going to war with Iraq?” And he said, “Oh, it’s worse than that.” He reached over on his desk. He picked up a piece of paper. And he said, “I just got this down from upstairs” — meaning the Secretary of Defence’s office — “today.” And he said, “This is a memo that describes how we’re going to take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing off, Iran.”

This is the start of the "draining of the swamp".

[Zapatas Blood]

Watching CNN and listening to Clinton its obvious that they have a game plan for Libya. Oil, uncooperative dictator, middle east. Sound familiar?

[P-Dubby]

I really dont think the US are geared up for alternative energy/fuels.

If they were, wouldnt it be a lot easier and cheaper to progress to them, rather than opening up endless wartime fronts to secure supply?

I know the US political system is owned by big Oil, but even they must see it is ultimately futile.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Watching CNN and listening to Clinton its obvious that they have a game plan for Libya. Oil, uncooperative dictator, middle east. Sound familiar?

Oh grow up - Gaddafi has been uncooperative for 40 years. If they didn't invade 'for the oil' years ago when he was widely sponsoring terrorism ( and when they were not fighting two other wars) why would they do it now 'for the oil'.

You honestly don't think Gaddafi's violence against his own people is the reason?

He is bombing his own cities and murdering people - he seems determined to go down in flames - If he cant have Libya then no one will.

And the UN is doing what precisely? Publishing a report that praises Libya and Gaddafi as a beacon on the hill of 'Human Rights':ugh:

What would you consider a better outcome than the US intervening?

[oicur12.again]

"If they didn't invade 'for the oil' years ago when he was widely sponsoring terrorism (and when they were not fighting two other wars) why would they do it now 'for the oil'."

Because like many oil producing countries in the ME, their oil fields are state owned or managed, deteriorating and in need of (western) expertise in order to regain efficient production levels. This becomes especially important with fears of possible instability in places such as Iran which will be much more difficult to influence. The control of oil production, pricing, marketing and its influence on USD hegemony and manufacturing is the start and finish of western foreign policy right now and will be until a new global monetary system is put in place.

“You honestly don't think Gaddafi's violence against his own people is the reason?”

No. Why would we care more about a Libyan than a Vietnamese or a Cambodian or an Iraqi?

[Jabawocky]

Plan B
Let them wipe themselves out and after it's done the shambles that is left will need help from the US/west and then do a deal on oil which is there only serious export.

How does that sound after he has killed thousands of his own people and his sons are in control?

[The Professor]

Chimbu

"You honestly don't think Gaddafi's violence against his own people is the reason?"

Did you have the same opinion when the west was supportive of Pinochet murdering his own people or when Suharto was murdering his own people?

[oicur12.again]

"You honestly don't think Gaddafi's violence against his own people is the reason?"

110 cruise missiles in the first wave. For humanitarian reasons?

I highly doubt it.

Oil.

[SgtBundy]

110 cruise missiles in the first wave. For humanitarian reasons?

I highly doubt it.

Oil.

A cruise missle being shot down does not make the western papers as much as a captured F-18 pilot being paraded on the streets. The missles were simply to disable the early warning and AA capabilities. So far the US has declared they will not land troops in the country. If it was about the oil I imagine the USMC would be landing there in short order.

[The Professor]

"If it was about the oil I imagine the USMC would be landing there in short order."

Lets wait and see how that unfolds. This is early days.

Below is a good idea of where the western overlords are taking us.

YouTube - Wesley Clark exposes plan to attack Iraq after 9-11-01

[oicur12.again]

Khalifa Haftar: The man who left Virginia to lead Libya's rebels - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/04/04/libya.rebel.leader/index.html)

CIA has been working on this revolution for a long time.

[oicur12.again]

"While many of the rationalizations describe resources, especially oil, as the reasons why we should be in that country, there are also an increasing number of dissenting voices. For the most part, these revolve around Libya’s financial relationship with the World Bank, International Monetary Fund (IMF), the Bank for International Settlements (BIS), and multinational corporations.

According to the IMF, Libya’s Central Bank is 100% state owned. The IMF estimates that the bank has nearly 144 tons of gold in its vaults. It is significant that in the months running up to the UN resolution that allowed the US and its allies to send troops into Libya, Muammar al-Qaddafi was openly advocating the creation of a new currency that would rival the dollar and the euro. In fact, he called upon African and Muslim nations to join an alliance that would make this new currency, the gold dinar, their primary form of money and foreign exchange. They would sell oil and other resources to the US and the rest of the world only for gold dinars."

John Perkins, Author of "confessions of an economic hitman"

[Erin Brockovich]

Good to see 'some' of you lot are taking the blinkers off. Keep digging if you're brave enough.

Makes whining about pay and conditions look silly and irrelevant - and guilty as charged.

OpEdNews - Article: Whistleblower: Libya "Vampire War" is About Oil, Lockerbie and CIA Heroin Op (http://www.opednews.com/articles/Libya-s-Blood-for-Oil-The-by-Susan-Lindauer-110327-21.html)



For those that are interested - video link below to 'our' 911. Will make you look and the new "AFP TV series" in a new way.

0SYSwfApjM8

[404 Titan]

That video is nothing more than a statement with unsubstantiated accusations and theories. It’s as preposterous as those that say that 911 was an inside job by the US government. People that believe that sh*t quite frankly are morons.:ugh::yuk:

Penn & Teller - 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

[oicur12.again]

Operation Northwoods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods)

Ya reckon the government is always squeeky clean?

[404 Titan]

Oh please give me a break. If you actually believe Wikipedia is a reliable source for information then you are more gullible than I thought. :ugh:

By the way the draft plans of Operation Northwoods were rejected by the US government. Military planners (which aren’t the government if you can’t see the difference) not just in the US but all over the world plan for various military scenarios all the time. This doesn’t make such plans conspiracy theories, even if some of them are outrageous to the majority of the population.

[gobbledock]

Read 'The Report From Iron Mountain' and it's link with the very astute Robert McNamara. It was a real repprt in the 60's, not a hoax, and even back then the government was planning ways to control the masses through subltle means like taxes and even, yes, carbon taxes !
Human beings have been fooled for centuries by creative accountants and politicians. Nothing is by accident. The majority of mankind feels as if their balls are in a vice - exactly what the government wants, full control and total opression. We are living proof.....

[oicur12.again]

404,

You crack me up. Wiki is just one of many sources carrying the information. Northwoods was VERY real. Shall I provide links from more "traditional" news services for you?

The Kennedy administration considered the plan but declined to implement Northwoods despite the joint chiefs and the NSA signing off on the project. Some have suggested that the Kennedy’s only refused the advice of the joint chiefs as a result of the deceiving information provided to them during the Bay of Pigs fiasco. At the very least, Northwoods hints at what could unfold.

“Military planners ……..plan for various military scenarios all the time.”

True, but concocting Northwoods and lobbying POTUS to implement such a plan is very different from strategic gaming.

“Military planners (which aren’t the government if you can’t see the difference) not just in the US but all over the world plan for various military scenarios all the time.”

You need to do some study as to how the “Government” works, especially in the US. Have you heard of the Defense Policy Board? Do you know how much power they wield? They are not part of the Government and yet have been instrumental in swaying 2 Administrations into commencing conflict in the past decade.

[404 Titan]

oicur12.again

I guess you are one of the 49.3% of dumb a*s Americans that believe in conspiracy theories. You have a very fertile imagination numb nuts. Go ahead and post links to all the blogs you like. They are all just part of the 49.3% of the idiots that believe that tripe. They produce 0% of credible evidence that would stand up in any court of law.

Regarding Wikipedia, the day that anyone like you and me can’t go into it and just change the content to suit our argument will be the day that I believe what I read there. It isn’t and never has been a reliable source of information.

So what if some military planners lobbied the president. They were also lobbying the President to invade the USSR for 60 years of the cold war and are probably lobbying him to invader China and half a dozen Middle Eastern countries as I write this post. It doesn’t make it government policy and the idea was scuttled by the US President i.e. the government at the time. Military planners in Australia had plans to neutralise the Indonesian military and government when relations with them went sour in the 70’s-80’s. Does that make it Australian government policy at the time? No.

For some of you to get on here and peddle as the truth that the US government instigated 911 and the Howard government did the same in Bali in 2002 makes me sick. As Pen said in the video I posted, “It’s one thing to say that man didn’t land on the moon but it takes a special class of a*sh*le to peddle this b*llSh*t. You quite clearly fall into the latter class of a*sh*le.:yuk:

By the way you mention “Defence Policy Board” and how they were instrumental in steering US foreign policy over the last ten years. It is one thing to convince a US administration to invade Iraq and Afghanistan to over through regimes that were despised but it’s completely another thing to convince any US administration to commit genocide on its own people.

[Zapatas Blood]

404 - your a really deep thinker aint ya.

[404 Titan]

Zapatas Blood

I’m obviously a deeper thinker than you numb nuts. You too are a member of that 49.3% of dumb a*ses that believes in conspiracy theories. To actually believe the US and AUS governments committed genocide on their own people puts you in that special class of as*h*le. I bet you are also a member of the “Birtha” movement, i.e. those idiots that believe Obama was born in Kenya or Indonesia rather than Hawaii. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Erin Brockovich]

Sorry I couldn’t resist


404 really........Penn and Teller? That’s what you present as “credible evidence” and you call us idiots.

Here are some more videos for you to get worked up over.

The first one, ‘Fair Game’ although a HollyWood production (so should sit well with you) is based on true events showing that there were no WMDs found in IRAQ

MpMGQgXbOgA

The second, opens another can of worms. I find what is stated at 4:27 quite interesting.

8NaiKWALe-w

Happy debunking

[404 Titan]

Erin Brockovich
Penn and Teller? That’s what you present as “credible evidence” and you call us idiots.
And you produce a Hollywood movie and a Japanese enquiry into insider trading. Pen & Teller may not be scientific but at least they have a functioning BS detector. I find it amazing that all those who object to my point of view have US or Central American domiciles. Funny that.:hmm:
The first one, ‘Fair Game’ although a HollyWood production (so should sit well with you) is based on true events showing that there were no WMDs found in IRAQ
I think it is on record from the Australian weapons inspector Richard Butler that Iraq didn’t have WMD in the early to mid 90’s. You don’t need to produce a hyped up Hollywood movie to tell me something I already know.

As for the Japanese investigation into insider trading prior to 911, what is your point? Are you saying the US government knew about or was responsible for the insider trading? The video doesn’t say that. For all we know (and we don’t), it was probably al-Qaeda, after all they had inside information that something was going to happen on the 9th Sept 2001.

You haven’t produced one shred of evidence that proved the US or Australia committed genocide on its own people. The reality is you can’t because it is a BS conspiracy theory created by nupties with a deranged imagination like yourself.:yuk:

[Erin Brockovich]

404

I've found a great video that may help you

RbgzZ-ID4pM

Seriously though, if you have the time have look at this one (and from start to finish unlike the other ones I suspect). You may even change your mind.

8aMbvxCr7JU

[slamer.]

Fyfe "happy" for fuel prices to rise

1/04/2011 8:32:00

A rather surprising statement from the boss of Air New Zealand. Rob Fyfe does not care if the cost of aviation fuel rises to even greater heights.At the moment it's around $115 a barrel - other airlines say if it gets to $150, that will become painful.

However Rob Fyfe told CNN's Richard Quest that high fuel prices will clean some of the cut-price airlines out of the industry. "I'd actually be happy with fuel at 150 , I'd be happy with fuel at $200. We are actually an incredibly robust airline, we've got a very strong balance sheet. There's a lot of airlines out there which struggle economically to survive. They get by by the skin of their teeth," he says.

[jibba_jabba]

go here: infowars.com

if you have an open mind and objectively listen, especially when guests that come on you will see that calling people "conspiracy... whatever" is you just being comfortable in your own world. It is an effort to hear about alternative opinions from your own programmed bubble (and main stream "vested interests" media). Its uncomfortable and it forces you to re-evaluate your own world. That's uncomfortable for most people but, if your any sort of pilot, ignoring the evidence that your engine is on fire will not make you safe, it makes you ignorant and stupid.

There are countless documents from very qualified people that simply blow your "numb nuts" argument away. Insulting people simply proves your so unbalanced in your opinion you cannot accept new information as it presented to you. Very bad for everything in your life. Sure it makes you feel "in control" when you just insult somebody with surface detail and some kind of 49.3% statistics etc etc.

I am sure this will fall on deaf ears but, once again, if you have an ability to review information in its entirety before you blab about your opinion then you may learn something that may help you......

good luck in breaking your paradigm; or keeping your old one.



Michael Ruppert (ex Police officer etc etc):
Truth and lies of 9/11 (watch because it talks about the geo-politics B4 the event not just the event - Also relates to oil).
YouTube - 9/11 - Mike Ruppert - The Truth And Lies Of 911 -(Full length)


CNN:
YouTube - Anwar Al-Awlaki Is A Pentagon CIA Asset

[gobbledock]

Fyfe "happy" for fuel prices to rise

A rather surprising statement from the boss of Air New Zealand. Rob Fyfe does not care if the cost of aviation fuel rises to even greater heights.At the moment it's around $115 a barrel - other airlines say if it gets to $150, that will become painful.
However Rob Fyfe told CNN's Richard Quest that high fuel prices will clean some of the cut-price airlines out of the industry. "I'd actually be happy with fuel at 150 , I'd be happy with fuel at $200. We are actually an incredibly robust airline, we've got a very strong balance sheet. There's a lot of airlines out there which struggle economically to survive. They get by by the skin of their teeth," he says.

Has Fyfe had a "Charlie Sheen meltdown" ? Oil at $150-200 per barrel would see his bottom line stripped bare very quickly regardless of how 'robust' his airline is. Unless he has managed to hedge 100% of it at $20 per barrel for the next 10 years ?
And even at $115 per barrel their would be several Aussie outfits bleeding severely at that rate. At any rate, Fyfe's comment is somewhat bizzare considering his ability and certainly his strengths as a decent CEO. Maybe he has been getting naked in the sun for too many Air New Zealand TV commercials ?

Jibba Jabba - Excellent post relating to the the revenue obtained through illicit drug trading and the governments involvement. Although a lot of people would be shocked or naievely offended by such statements the facts remain that it is true. Only a fool would put any government (including the USA) up on a pedestal and doubt that a government would or could be involved in anything like drug trading, corruption, deceit or immoral unethical activities. Governments set the bar when it comes to this sort of behaviour. Try reading 'The Creature From Jekyll Island' if you want to see the links between individual greed, the US government and a handful of obscenely wealthy banking cartel families who are The Federal Reserve System.

[jibba_jabba]

gobbledock,

I think your right, most airlines would have hedged significantly at $40 barrel oil, and even at $80 odd dollars.
He is right, this discount airline biz can only go on so long. I dont think oil prices will be going down in a hurry as Soro's came out and hinted the new world reserve currency will be backed partly by gold and energy(oil).

[gobbledock]

new world reserve currency will be backed partly by gold and energy(oil).
Spot on. The Euro is dead, the dollar (paper money) is dead. The new currency will likely be introduced through the IMF. Look at Gold and Silver over the last 12 months to see that something is brewing. The US debt ceiling has peaked, there is nothing else that can be done to remove that amount of debt than to start from scratch (not as easy as it sounds). Oil is an interesting commodity to back a currency against, but along with gold and to a lesser degree silver you have a starting point.
The 2008 GFC which is still causing pain is just a precursor to the bubble that is about to really burst. Portugal, Spain, Greece, Ireland, Italy, USA -all up s*it creek financially. The rest of the world is experiencing massive inflation (the annonomous tax), artificial house/land value's, increased debts and minimal ability or desire to lower debt and inflation.

Research 'The Mandrake Mechanism' and you will be amazed at how economies, war and economic depressions have all been caused and manipulated and controlled by a handul of greedy families in their quest for world power and dominance. Governments are merely puppets and a pawn in this game. The UN, CFR and World Bank have other plans.

Time will tell.

[Ultralights]

why, in the rest of the business community, the increasing costs of materials to provide a service or product are passed on to the end consumer, yet in the aviation industry, this does not happen? fuel goes up, pass on the costs.....is it so hard?

[gobbledock]

why, in the rest of the business community, the increasing costs of materials to provide a service or product are passed on to the end consumer, yet in the aviation industry, this does not happen? fuel goes up, pass on the costs.....is it so hard?

Most products are essential. Food, petrol, electricity, housing (including building material costs), so when they raise the price we have no choice but to still pay for the service as it is necessary.
These days in aviation most revenue comes from leisure. So if you jack the price of fares up it is all over red rover. People won't travel because leisure is a luxury not a necessity. Business travel is easy to cull since we now have video conferencing etc. Add into the mix the massive amount of tax airlines pay on fuel and the daylight robbery that is charged by airport corporations and you have an aviation sector that has it's hands tied....

[Erin Brockovich]

This film is a great summary of the situation we all face - the Big Picture.

I now feel that there is enough interest and maturity on this forum tread to show this gem.

See you on the other side.



This is only part 1 of 8 (Total film only about 60min). Follow the youtube link for the rest or to see the film in its entirety

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[tail wheel]

Must be a new moon? :ugh: