Considering entering the industry. Few questions

[slim93jim]

Hi guys,

First time poster but I have been skimming these forums for a few months now. Just a question or two.

I'm currently in yr12 this year and considering a career as a pilot when I leave school and just trying to get a realistic picture as to what to expect.

From the threads I've read over the last few months I've gained somewhat of an understanding from you guys but I'd like to have a few things clarified and made clear.

After reading around here it's become clear to me that not all pilots end up working that "dream job" making huge cash like a lot of people think. My understanding is, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that it can be pretty difficult to earn a solid income as a pilot unless you end up in an airline?

From what I've come to understand - GA really isn't, for most people, a long term career goal as a lot of companies tend to pay minimum wage and a lot of guys go through it until they get sucked into an airline. Same goes with instructing. Obviously there are exceptions.

My question to you guys is - what can I expect in terms of a salary as a pilot? I'd like to gain a specific understanding. I've read on these forums a lot of guys claiming in GA you'll get paid peanuts. That the regionals aren't any good either. That something like a J* cadetship is underpaid, etc. What could I expect to earn after 5years or 10 years? In a typical airline as a direct entry pilot or in a regional, or even as an instructor/GA guy if I did choose to stay there in the long run.

It's always been a dream of mine to fly but I want to be realistic as it seems a lot of posts in the past here seem to indicate a lot of guys struggle to make ends meat, pay off the mortgage, support the family etc. I've read that others have even left. A few guys in here claim that a McDonalds manager or factory line worker can earn more than an experienced pilot? Or is this just a wind up? I have a rough idea of what I could expect in other careers such as government jobs etc and recently was told that a Metro Melbourne train driver starts on 80k/year but typically earns around 100 with overtime - with training covered - in fact I was told you get paid while you're trained. Compared to forking out tens of thousands for a CPL etc.

If anyone could post here, or in private what I can expect from well known companies, or in general at different stages of a caree it would be appreciated so I can compare a career as a pilot to other things I have an interest in as well.


Thanks in advance :)

[SgtBundy]

I am not in the industry (outsider looking in), but an idea of pay scales and minimum salary etc can be found in the Air Pilots Award off the AFAP website:

http://www.fwa.gov.au/documents/modern_awards/pdf/MA000046.pdf

All I will say is if you really want to be flying, start now while you can be mobile and support yourself. Life changes, go after while you want while you can.

I wouldn't look too hard at money. Like any industry you always start at the bottom and you can learn to live off what you get one way or another, and more money comes with experience and skills and your own desire to move up. Trust me, sitting in an office earning $$$ doesn't compensate when you watch every plane go by the window and wish you were up there instead.... :{

[tail wheel]

If anyone could post here, or in private what I can expect from well known companies, or in general at different stages of a career it would be appreciated so I can compare a career as a pilot to other things I have an interest in as well.

One of the reasons we generally do not permit threads of this nature is that one could write a multi volume book and still not answer your questions or predict where you may end up. Only you can determine your own destiny.

People become pilots for many reasons - they want to instruct, want to remain in GA, train for airline entry or want to enter one of the many specialised areas such as aerial agriculture, corporate, rotary wing, regulatory (CASA) etc.

You can enter the airline industry via the traditional GA route, or via an airline cadetship. Either way, you probably need to budget $70,000 to $150,000 and around two years committed, intensive training. Don't plan on a loan which you may not be able to pay!

If you wish to become an airline pilot - and you are fortunate enough to achieve airlines employment - the pay varies from approximately $80K pa as an FO to around $200K pa as a captain, depending on airline and aircraft type. It may take some years to gain the experience for airline entry, or it may not, and it may take some years for promotion to captain, or it may not.

General aviation and instructing wages vary from around $50K to maybe $80K or more, although initial wages may be far, far less. Specialist areas may pay more.

If you don't have the passion for flying and your sole intention is to make a big salary, a secure career and a life of luxury, you are at the wrong forum. I suggest you go research an economics degree and the banking, finance or insurance industries.

There is no one or simple answer to your questions; certainly your career path and future income would be unique to you, depending upon your skills, training and the "breaks" you get along the way.

I suggest you go visit a reputable flying school and talk to the CFI. :=

[mcgrath50]

Get out while you still can!

But seriously, yes there is a lot of doom and gloom here two things to keep in mind 1) go to anywhere that professionals are talking and the majority of their conversation will be bitching about their job/industry etc. 2) With that in mind, yes you read these posts here but the guys are still in the industry, they still go to work every day and they still are interested enough in the industry to go on a discussion board daily about it.

Don't let it get you down too much. Your eyes have been opened to reality. It's up to you now to work out if you are ok with that reality. Yes your drop kick mate who didn't finish year 12 and is now working for metro will make 2 to 3 times what you are making in your first years. Yes you will probably have to move to Northern Australia to get your first gig. Yes you will work max legal hours. But you're flying, you are seeing different parts of Australia, doing the job of a pilot. You have to weigh up the **** v the good like anything.

[Jack Ranga]

Slim Jim,

As stated there are probably two ways to end up in an airline, cadetship or working your way up through GA.

CADETSHIPS, the cadetships are in my opinion immoral, they are training you to do a job that they need you for yet they are making a profit out of your training.

OR

GA, don't expect any employer in GA to pay you the award, the vast majority don't. This was probably the traditional way into the airlines in the past. It will be extremely competitive on this route now as cadetships will provide one of the biggest employers in Australia their main source of pilots. If it works for this airline and it's a big if, expect all the other airlines in Australia to follow suit.

Don't expect ethics or morality to be part of your flying career, it's not just pprune that you can source your information from on this subject.

Get another useful qualification before you enter this industry.

[mcgrath50]

Qantas doesn't make any money out of their cadetship. Others like Sharp do make a profit from the flight training (no more than usual schools) and almost certainly save money on FO pay. Then there is J* which is the immoral, probably dangerous, referred to above.

Either way they cost a lot, have no guarantees (the 'lucky' ranges from 90% to ??) and generally aren't as flexible in terms of study (they are course you are on rather than the more modular form of usual flight schools).

There are big threads out there on each of the cadetships you can look over anyhow and make your choice.

I am assuming you have looked at the ADF and discounted it, if not give it a look!

[allthecoolnamesarego]

Slim,

If you are passionate about flying, and think that nothing else in the world will make you happy, then I would suggest ADF then hopefully airlines after you have had your fun and learnt your trade.

I have kids and unfortunately would not encourage them to become pilots, unless they were doing it as a result of a high paid fulfilling job (ie, doing it on the weekends).

Mcgrath is correct about the bitching in any job/industry, however, the days of the 'dream flying job' are well and truly over. You can still enjoy it, but you will be worked to the bone, be away from home a lot and suffer incompetent management. This has been true of airlines for many years now, BUT now you will be paid far less than before for the privilege of doing it!

Although it is probably 50 years or more away, flying as a pilot, as we know it know, will disappear. We used to need Navigators - gone (ADF exception), flight engineers - gone, or different industry examples - lift operators - gone. You name it, any job that can be done by the cheaper of humans or machines, will one day be done by machines.

Don't mean to sound too gloomy, it is many years off, but if you are in the industry for the next 40 years, you will see some MAJOR changes (might be good stuff too - space???)

If you love it - Go for it, if it is any less than that, get a job you enjoy (hopefully well paying) and fly on your terms.

I feel really sad saying what I have, especially since I love aviation, but I see it on the down hill slide.

Good luck :ok:

[VH-XXX]

There will always be aircraft and they will always need pilots... for the forseeable future anyway!

[Jack Ranga]

50,

I don't think there's been a Qantas cadetship for some time? And if they do in future, it will be based on the Jetstar model.

[lost&found]

Ranga - Unfortunately, Cadetships are the flavour of the month for airlines...They are cheap, they train kids to fly the way they want and there are plenty of people out there willing to accept lower conditions of service to be trained to work for an airline. gone are the days of moving through GA on to regionals and then into the big airlines.

Slim - If you want to have some variety in your career go the ADF option, you also get a university degree whilst at officer training. Just another option for when you realise starting work at 0400 on a Sunday morning, when all your mates are still out on the drink, isnt as fulfilling as once thought!

[dreamer84]

Must say, a well worded and intelligent post from a guy in year 12. I can't offer too much in the way of advice other than be absolutely certain you want a career in flying. I've only got a CPL and a handful of hours. I spent a lot of money on my training and now, due family and other reasons, am in a situation where I can't really afford to fly for a living. No one else to blame but myself, but I think now I wish more for a decent wage to support my family than to fly professionally. On other days though....:ugh:I want nothing more than to spend everyday up there!

As mentioned, if it's just money you're after perhaps flying recreationally is the way to go. You seem switched on enough to find a decent enough career anywhere. But if you live and breath it, despite all the bad press, you are willing to make sacrifices and aren't just fascinated by shiny jets and spunky uniforms then go your hardest! I'm sure the good days are as awesome as you imagine, and the bad days probably worse than you imagine.

All the best. Have you had a TIF?

[Jack Ranga]

Dreamer,

There are other ways to enjoy aviation. (A CPL is not money wasted). It just takes patience! My first foray into aircraft ownership was a tomahawk with a mate. A great learning experience that only cost me $16,000 (plus the ongoing costs of course!).

Patience grasshopper :ok:

[dreamer84]

Thanks Jack,

You're right! I'll never give it up, thats for sure. Still looking at ways down the track to make it happen.

Cheers!

[Mr. Hat]

Slim, its all about picking the trend in my opinion. At the moment the trend in our industry isn't very good.

I recommend you get a trade first, build some money up and then maybe consider flying at a later date. Believe it or not but you are VERY young and have PLENTY of time. Nothing to stop you getting to know the industry whilst getting that trade. Plenty of people on here are actually a help if you ask.

I've written extensively on this forum about this and other topics. I'm just saying what I would do if I was 18 again.

It wasn't long ago I was in your position (**** it was actually..). I fly in an airline now and its great but if I had my time over I'd have gone out and sorted a better back up plan. Right now I and many others are quite vulnerable. Our financial position is entirely dependant on passing sim (no problem if you study), passing the medical, industrial bastardry, fuel prices, the world economy and whatever good or bad moves our managers make.

Its uncomfortable to say the least when you don't have a backup trade.

The trend in this country is tradies doing extremely well. The trend in this country is pilots conditions getting worse and worse. Have a look overseas to see where it might end up.

[mattyj]

..my gay mate asked me.."do you think that us gays should be allowed to get married?"

I said "of course, you guys deserve to be miserable like the rest of us!!"

Slim Jim..welcome to the industry, of course you deserve to be a pilot too:ok: