RVSM/WX deviations.

[arrow28]

Are there any procedures in Oz that allow for wx deviations without a clearance. The reason I ask this is that if flying over the South China Sea, Bay of Bengal and even over the Atlantic one is permitted to deviate off track to avoid CB's if a clearance to avoid cannot be obtained. In the above regions one can maintain the same level when deviating up to 10NM off track however if a deviation is greater than 10NM one must descend or climb 300ft depending on the direction of flight. I am unable to find similar info on Oz operations and would appreciate being enlightened.

Thanks

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[Icarus2001]

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/publications/current/aip/enr/1_1_1-116.pdf

Try para 18.8.1 and 38.4.4

[Captain Dart]

And in anal Australian airspace, if you do receive the weather deviation clearance you asked for from ATC, don't forget to read the whole lot back (the bit where where anywhere else in the world a 'roger' or a 'thank you' would suffice) :hmm:.

[chimbu warrior]

I don't see anything wrong with reading back a clearance in its entirety; better than a "misunderstanding" leading to a TCAS RA.

[Capn Bloggs]

Dart,
in anal Australian airspace
You must be Gen Y. Otherwise you would remember that some years ago Australia didn't require readbacks of virtually everything that was said. It was only when we got dragged down to the international "standard" that we went into verbal-diarrhoea mode. :ok:

Besides, given opposite-direction domestic routes are only 15nm apart, it would seem to be a good idea to verify you were given what you asked for.

[Dick N. Cider]

Anybody else p!ssed off with last year's "deviate left of route" vs "left of track" debacle?

DNC

[Capn Bloggs]

"deviate left of route" vs "left of track"
Entirely logical, IMO. You don't get "cleared to Adelaide via planned track" so why would you be cleared using any other language when deviating around weather?

[Dragun]

Agreed.





(xxxxxxxxxxx letters to lengthen post)

[DirectAnywhere]

The page you're looking for is:

AIP ENR 2.2-3, Section 1.6.
(http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/publications/current/aip/enr/2_2_1-8.pdf)
Cheers.

[arrow28]

Icarus & Direct appreciate the links. The oceanic procedures are the same as elsewhere. So if flying other than oceanic routes & say between MEL,SYD & BNE. If one was not able to obtain a clearance to avoid wx en route. All that would be required, would be a PAN call on the relevant frequencies & divert as necessary. Is this what airlines in Oz practice?

[Nautilus Blue]

arrow28 leaving aside the contentious issue of restricted areas, I have never seen an aircraft not get a clearance to divert. You may be pushed up or down a few levels, or given diversions the other side (even if its the longer way round) for separation. I work on the theory that if I don't clear you do divert, you are going to anyway, so find a way of making it happen.


Captain Dart its to prevent double miss-hearings. For example, you request XX miles right, but I think you said YY miles. I clear you YY miles but you think I said XX and just reply with roger. Extremely unlikely, but every ATC and pilot probably has stories of the person on the other end of the radio completely miss-hearing something.

As for track/route, given that wx diversions almost always equals busy, I've gotten into the habit of just saying "Cleared xx miles right/left" rather than worrying out it.

[arrow28]

Nautilus sounds like your an ATCO & if so it's good to get it from the horses mouth. I apologise for belabouring the point but it's only after talking to a pilot flying these routes that I initiated this thread. In his case because of poor planning requested to divert around wx when quite close to build ups & so could not get the clearance in time. He unfortunately chose to fly through the edges instead of diverting anyway.
I have 2 scenarios:
1. If ATC cannot or will not issue a clearance due traffic and the pilot diverts any way, what is he expected to do in regard to laid down procedures say between MEL and SYD when traffic is heavy.
2. If flying between say CIN & AS a/c is CPDLC/ADS equipped & again unable to get a clearance in time can one employ the Oceanic Procedure ( >10nm 300ft Climb/descend) even though it's not oceanic or is he expected to give a PAN & all stations call and then divert? any quote from your ATC manual would be helpful.

[Nautilus Blue]

arrow28 - sorry I didn't really answer your question did I? Truthfully, I don't know what you are supposed to say, I'll look it up next time I'm at work. What you suggest does ring a bell though. If a pilot told me he was diverting without clearance, I wouldn't be quibbling about the phraseology they used, or question whether they are declaring a PAN or not. (The shift manager, on the other hand, would think of that first).

1. The first thing we would do would be to pass a traffic alert on the aircraft you are now in conflict with, and vice versa. I believe traffic avoidance then becomes your responsibility, with us providing as much assistance as possible in the way of radar relative positions etc.

2. This one is NO. All non oceanic controlled airspace is the same, and aircraft equipment doesn't matter. Basically both scenarios would be the same.

Thinking about it, I suspect the answer is in AIP rather than MATS (Manual of Air Traffic Services).

[Trent 972]

If the particular situation requires manoeuvring without a clearance
AIP ENR 1.1, 3.9 (General Rules, Operations in Controlled Airspace, Air Traffic Clearance and Instructions)
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/publications/current/aip/enr/1_1_1-116.pdf
If considered necessary, a pilot should request a different clearance from that issued. In an emergency, a pilot may act without a clearance and immediately advise ATC.

[Nautilus Blue]

If considered necessary, a pilot should request a different clearance from that issued. In an emergency, a pilot may act without a clearance and immediately advise ATC.

And in an ideal world, your compay, CASA and the ATSB would say you were the PIC, you were the one on the spot and the only one in a position to make that call, and we will respect your judgement. Reality may be different.

[Trent 972]

More specifically AIP ENR 1.1 General Rules 18.8 (Navigation Requirements)
18.8 Deviations Due Weather
18.8.1 In controlled airspace, any deviation from track due weather requires prior clearance from ATC. If unable to obtain a clearance, and the pilot in command considers the deviation necessary, a PAN call specifying details of the deviation must be broadcast on the appropriate frequencies. Pilots must be aware that the declaration of an emergency does not guarantee the aircraft safe passage, especially if the deviation is into an active restricted area.

[Dick N. Cider]

In many parts of Oz separation is based upon your compliance with your clearance and timely advice if you can't. Much of Australian airspace has no radar coverage. (A reply light does not necessarily mean we can see you) ADS-B is helping significantly but there's still lots of non-equipped traffic.

Even in radar airspace, some routes are designed in close proximity to military airspace (the separation standard away from the boundary). A controller may not notice your deviation immediately. Many military restricted areas are released to authorities other than ATC and therefore separation cannot be applied with traffic that's in there. Mil ATC are not necessarily aware of the disposition of the traffic within these areas and recovery of the airspace will take some time.

If you have to turn off track tell ATC at the earliest opportunity. Assume there may be other traffic there.

RPM

[Nautilus Blue]

18.8 covers it. MATS doesn't have anything else except the oceanic procedure you already know and the specific situation of diversions into active restricted areas.

[arrow28]

Thanks for all the posts especially the ones with the links.

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