What REALLY Happened To Nigger? [Archive]

Wee_Tam

17th Feb 2011, 17:11

Hi all,

im currently collating a story, for the magazine i am editor of trying to find out what really happened to Guy Gibson's dog, nigger.

there are a few things that baffle me about the official story though, and i was wondering if any of you guys had heard rumours/stories circulating which could help me unravel it a bit more.

heres what gets me :

The official story says that nigger was killed by a car that didnt stop outside the gates at Scampton on the day of the Ruhr valley raids.

Now, as im sure you all know, military instillations are "locked down" before any movement, in this case, a top secret raid, with nobody going out, and nobody coming in, so HOW did nigger get on to the road in front of the gates to be killed?

There are rumours going around about nigger being murdered to affect morale, but this would be under the assumption there was a saboteur or enemy agent IN Scampton at the time.

Also, another rumour say he was killed deliberately by a member of the aircrew, because he had a habit of "splashing" anything lower than a squadron leader, and instead of being buried by the mess, he was tossed into a ditch and had the "splashing" reciprocated by the aircrew....

Anyone know of any rumours/stories etc that could add any creedence to any of this?

Slainte!

Tam

henry crun

17th Feb 2011, 19:32

If you understand that "locked down" means something along the lines of a chain link or solid gate from ground level upwards, I think you are under a misapprehension.

The gate would probaby have been nothing more than the usual swinging barrier arm, with a guard in attendance to prevent human and vehicle exit.
It would not have stopped nigger from just walking under it.

chevvron

17th Feb 2011, 19:45

I really must protest at this blackening of the reputation of a famous aviation dog and sod the PC brigade who want his name deleted.

JEM60

17th Feb 2011, 19:59

Chevvron. Hear Hear.

PPRuNe Pop

17th Feb 2011, 20:14

A search on our archives will reveal much about what happened to 'Nigger' but I am sure you will also get some later info.

Robert Cooper

17th Feb 2011, 20:58

Oh dear! Can't wait to see where this goes :E

Bob C

Phileas Fogg

17th Feb 2011, 21:10

The stupidity of this thread makes me laugh ..... I stayed in a resort last July, the resort's owners had a 5 month young dog that, one evening, decided it wanted to shag my leg.

Should I have reminded that dog that this was a 'lock down' thus no shagging of my leg was allowed? :)

frequentflyer2

17th Feb 2011, 22:04

A thread I started on the Cabin Crew forum a couple of hours ago has been closed by a moderator. I have no idea why except that it could be taken as being critical of CC behaviour I encountered on a recent flight.
This thread contains a term of racial abuse in its title. Yes, I realise the word was a name given to a dog probably because of the colour of his coat. However, that does not change the fact that the word has been used to insult, deride and belittle black people. Some members of Pprune may well have suffered abuse of this nature. No matter what the context this word should not be used. I'm not suggesting the thread should be closed or deleted. However, it should be edited to remove this offensive word.

Capetonian

17th Feb 2011, 22:23

It's not an offensive word. It's a name. Used in a different context it could be offensive.

The name 'Concha', which is a frequently used female name in Spain, is a very vulgar word in South American slang for the female genitalia. Nobody considers it offensive in the right context.

(I just avoided falling into the trap of saying it's a common woman's name in Spain!)

Planemike

17th Feb 2011, 22:30

ff2..............

Please tell me you are joking?!!!

Planemike

Brian Abraham

17th Feb 2011, 22:33

it should be edited to remove this offensive word.And rewrite history to satisfy the sensibilities of a few? Reading a biography the other day about a chap who was of a gay nature. Should the book be rewritten so as not to cast a modern day implication to the mans character, since the book was written circa 1940? I'm sure his family would choke on todays interpretation.

Art Smass

18th Feb 2011, 00:30

"This thread contains a term of racial abuse in its title"

OFFS:ugh:

Moose47

18th Feb 2011, 01:10

<<<"This thread contains a term of racial abuse in its title">>

Bull, it contains the name of a black Labrador dog killed prior to a very important operation.

henry crun

18th Feb 2011, 02:08

frequentflyer2: If the thread title is edited to remove the word you find so offensive, it will now read " What REALLY Happened To ?".
Is that what you want ?

stepwilk

18th Feb 2011, 03:08

There was a huge fuss several years ago in the U. S., can't remember the exact circumstances or context, but a newspaper op-ed writer--as I remember--used the perfectly valid word "niggardly," meaning stingy, and the scheiss hit the impeller...

alisoncc

18th Feb 2011, 04:29

I have always understood the word nigger to refer to the colour black in an artists palette. I think it is incredibly racist of frequentflyer2 to to see it purely as referring to a person with a dark coloured skin.

I read somewhere recently that golliwogs have been reprieved. Does this mean that my Robertson jam mementoes can see the light of day again.

My friends have an alsation dog. I think that is racist, naming a breed of dog after people from Alsace and Lorraine. Imagine do my friends have no shame. :\

Then we have pekinese dogs, should they now be called Beijinganese, and should the chinese people be allowed to object. :*

As for Guy Gibson's dog, let him lie in peace. His master and colleagues were instrumental in saving many thousands of allied lives. If I had a black dog I would be proud to call it Nigger.

18-Wheeler

18th Feb 2011, 04:54

Everyone settle down and have a nice, cool cheese sandwich.
Here's the cheese we often recommend in Australia ...

http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/hsirhan/2006/12/20/coon.jpg

(Not joking! We really do have a very popular cheese by that name)

Old-Duffer

18th Feb 2011, 06:08

When ITV screened the Dam Busters film, at the appropriate moment there is 'peep', so perhaps the dog's name was really Peep - said in a sort of screamy voice.

Remember the Robertson's jam jar label?

Don't do as I once did in the USA and talk about 'fag packet design' - it took me longer to get out of the 'outrage' caused than it did to cover the topic about which I was talking.

Watch out in Canada - it's now 'first nations' when discussing the early inhabitants.

My first dog, bought for me in February 1953, was a black cocker spaniel called - no not Cock - but 'Blackie'. The name was perfectly acceptable and there was never any offence given or taken. The PC claptrap (please note 'clap' is not used in this context in relation to a social ailment) is ruling every aspect of our life and should be resisted.

I don't believe there is anything really sinister about the dog's death. If there had been, it would have come out long before now and been substantiated. If there was foul play, Gibson was not the sort of man who would let it rest, so unless the culprit was killed on the raid, I think we would have heard more about it in the contemporary accounts.

O-D = (Just off to walk a pair of Bl:mad:k and Gold German Shepherd Dogs - soon to have the 'Alsation' part of the name removed by popular demand of the Breed Council)

Capetonian

18th Feb 2011, 06:52

FF2 : Think yourself lucky you don't work in Svaginahorpe, Lincs, as a nightwatchman.

Genghis the Engineer

18th Feb 2011, 06:54

In the meantime, highly pigmented rap musicians refer to their music style commonly as "nigger music".

Out of interest, does anybody know anybody who is, well, black, who gives a damn about the fact that GG's dog was called this, or is it just a selection of overly-sensitive white liberals?

A former girlfriend of mine, black and a very well respected schoolteacher (still is for that matter - a schoolteacher that is, not my girlfriend) used to get very frustrated when people tried to call blackboards chalkboards in front of here. "Look, it's a board, it's black, black is a colour, it applies to me as well - get over it" was roughly how she usually put it.

G

Capetonian

18th Feb 2011, 07:07

I went into a camera shop, in fact as it's good publicity for their service I'll mention the name, a branch of Jessops, where one of the salesmen was particularly helpful.

Next day I went to make purchases worth almost £1000 based on the help that this man had given me, so I wanted him to get the commission or recognition for having been so helpful. He wasn't there, so I told the girl behind the counter that I was looking for the 'black gentleman' (and he was black, not brown or 'tanned!) who helped me the day before.

"We don't have any black people here" she said. I began to wonder if I was losing my marbles and had been at another branch, but I stood my ground, and eventually she said : "Well we have Mr ....... who is Afro-Caribbean".

Then there was the time I reported a persistently unpleasant woman in a fast food outlet to the head office. The last straw for me was when she was abusive to a small boy who was a few pence short of the money for his order and snapped at me when I gave him the coins. She refused to give me her name so I wrote on the report: "The black lady".
The reply I got said : "We are not taking this matter any further as we believe that your report is racially motivated.

FFS!!Some people neeed to seriously grow up and get out more.

alisoncc

18th Feb 2011, 07:24

A while back there was a move to bring back the Black and White Minstrel show on TV. I filed an objection - never seen white minstrels looking anything like that. :}

skua

18th Feb 2011, 07:52

Meanwhile, Nigger's fate remains a mystery - most profound thread drift for a while!:hmm:

pulse1

18th Feb 2011, 08:00

JEM60

18th Feb 2011, 08:00

I had a black son-in-law for 10 years. I used to tell him racial jokes all the time [with no nasty intent, as he well knew]. He thought they were hilarious, and pointed out that black people are perfectly happy to be called black, but nobody seems to ask THEM if they mind!!!.

dakkg651

18th Feb 2011, 08:39

'Out of interest, does anybody know anybody who is, well, black, who gives a damn about the fact that GG's dog was called this, or is it just a selection of overly-sensitive white liberals?'

There was one allegedly. Caused a big explosion of opinion over on the military forum a few years ago when it was reported that a painting of a certain Wing Commander and his dog was taken down from it's place of honour in the Officer's Mess after a complaint.

Or maybe history has been re-written and this never really happened!:ugh:

TBM-Legend

18th Feb 2011, 10:07

Dr Coon loves his cheese.....me too!

PC is so much BS. The "F" word and others seem to be quite OK with the hairy arm pitted brigade but not a black dogs actual name. My rugby hero as a kid was a guy called "Nigger" Brown. They even named the city football stadium stand after him. Fast forward 40 years and some **** comes along and wants it changed. Mr Brown was only ever known by his nick-name!

Gravity doesn't exist, the earth sucks!:D
http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu23/randalmcfarlane/ES-Nigger-Brown-Stand.jpg

ColinB

18th Feb 2011, 10:18

What REALLY Happened To Nigger?
I think he is playing the bone in Louis Armstrong's Celestial Hot Five

chevvron

18th Feb 2011, 10:28

Would I not be right in saying that 'nigger' (lower case) was a derisory term used in the southern USA to describe a slave, whereas 'Nigger' (upper case) is/was a common name for an animal with a black coat; certainly I can remember the horse used by the local Co-op for deliveries to my home in the '50s being called Nigger.

RedhillPhil

18th Feb 2011, 10:32

I don't know how to do the linky thing but could I point any interested parties to the YouTube clip, "Why I hate niggers" by Chris Rock (who is himself non reflective).

Planemike

18th Feb 2011, 10:32

I am surprised that the spolling pelice haven't jumped on this one. The OP claims to be the editor of a magazine. If his punctuation and spelling reflects the quality of this journal, it can't be a very serious one.

I wonder if we should attach any significance to the fact the OP has not returned to the thread and joined in the debate?

Planemike

Capetonian

18th Feb 2011, 10:42

As an aside, why do we talk about printing in black and white when it's really only black?

Old-Duffer

18th Feb 2011, 11:07

STOP PRESS - STOP PRESS!!!

It's just been announced that in the new version of The Dam Busters film, the one where the well known military aviation historian; Stephen Fry, has been entrusted with the script, the dog will be a female of the species (usually referred to as a B:mad:h). It's name is to be NIGELLA.

O-D

Capetonian

18th Feb 2011, 11:12

This is the same type of PC lunacy as this ... which I have posted before :

I took my godchildren to see the production of The Railway Children at Waterloo Station. It was outstanding and I can recommend it to anyone.

Political correctness, as always, dictated that a percentage of black people be included, despite the fact that this detracted from the reality and was totally out of context.

Albert Perks (the station master) and his wife were played by white people, but one of their three children was black. Much to my amusement, the small child behind us said loudly to his mother : "Mummy if those people are white how come one of their children is black."

Kids are not stupid!

forget

18th Feb 2011, 12:01

... the dog will be a female of the species. ......... It's name is to be NIGELLA.

I suspect the old chap from Northamptonshire already knew ...

The meaning of the name Nigella is Champion, or Black. :hmm:

Avitor

18th Feb 2011, 12:13

Acronyms for PC are fair game in my book. However Gibson would never have got 617 after 1997.
His choice of name for his dog 'could have been offensive to someone' ....I very much doubt any black person would 'genuinely' be offended.

Which brings us back to the - miserable? - PC merchants.

johngreen

18th Feb 2011, 13:50

If it is considered to be acceptable to call Gibson’s dog by his original name, what does the team think about the recent furore on the other side of the pond about intentions to produce versions of Huckleberry Finn with not only the word ‘nigger’ removed from the text but also the word ‘injun’?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/07/books/07huck.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/07/books/07huck.html)

Is it appropriate that youngsters should grow up being protected from the truths, however unpleasant, about their own country?

If so, where then does one draw a line?

Do the same people who answer the above question with a resounding ‘yes’ think also then that the Germans should therefore remove from their education syllabus the compulsory teaching of children about their recent ancestors’ involvement in such matters as the Final Solution?

And how might they respond to the fact that very few young Japanese have ever been taught about the most dubious behaviour of their country through the first decades of the 20th century?

Come to that, what should best be done with regard to teaching English and American students (among others), about the comparative realities of involvement of their own countries and the Soviet Union in WWII? That’s not the Hollywood version of events but rather the actual history of a conflict in which the two former nations sacrificed approximately 400,000 lives apiece while the later lost more than 20,000,000…

Doesn’t ‘our’ system of Civilidsation absolutely rely upon the strength of a Justice meted out by the use of the term ‘The Truth, the Whole Truth and nothing but the Truth?

Sorry for those of you who dislike thread drift. Quite an achievement I reckon to get from considerations of the name of a dead dog to considerations of what amounts to Civilisation in half a page…

Parapunter

18th Feb 2011, 14:03

it's black, black is a colour,Strictly speaking Genghis, Black is a tone, not a colour. Leastways, s'wot our art teech used to tell us constantly, what with it being a lack of reflection as opposed to a combination of materials emitting colour to form new colours.

jensdad

18th Feb 2011, 14:33

Avitor

18th Feb 2011, 14:37

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I believe that if Guy Gibson's dog hadn't been called what he was called, you wouldn't be writing a magazine article about him.

It is an offensive word, regardless of what some people,on this forum seem to think. I get the impression that some people love slipping the subject of Guy Gibson's dog into a conversation because it gives them an excuse to use that particular word.

I probably won't bother reading the rest of this thread as I can already guess I'm going to get a right slagging-off. You can call this post 'politically-correct BS' if you want. I call it being respectful.

Then perhaps you can forgive some of us for appearing normal.

Phileas Fogg

18th Feb 2011, 14:49

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafscampton/rafcms/mediafiles/gallery/D648980D_1143_EC82_2EAEFA2F14E561EB/niggers_grave_large.jpg

Old-Duffer

18th Feb 2011, 15:01

Jensdad,

Whilst not agreeing, I respect your opinion and have no intention of administering the earful treatment.

However, the point is that the dog had a name which was considered to be generally acceptable at the time and it is not necessary to change its name now. As was pointed out in an earlier post; a capital 'N' denotes a name/proper noun or whatever, whilst a small 'n' is a word accepted to mean a group of people of a certain ethnic grouping and one which most people would eschew using NOW - but not THEN.

Some portraits of Isambard Kingdom Brunel have been retouched to remove his cigar! It's not necessary to rewrite/redraw history. Tony Blair made various meaningless apologies for what were - after all - the social mores of the time; absolutely pointless.

Old Duffer

PS 'Forget' I'm neither that clever nor that sneaky!!

Genghis the Engineer

18th Feb 2011, 15:09

Worse than that, the statue put up a few years ago in the middle of the campus of Brunel University omitted the cigar.

An utterly pointless bit of political correctness. Particularly since it is still perfectly legal to smoke a cigar - at home or outdoors anyhow. The legality and morality of smoking remains much clearer than calling a dog (or anybody else) Nigger.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/Brunel_Statue_on_Brunel_University_grounds.jpg/450px-Brunel_Statue_on_Brunel_University_grounds.jpg

At least nobody has yet started objecting violently to large hats.

G

Agaricus bisporus

18th Feb 2011, 15:12

Dear me! Whatever happened to judgement and a sense of proportion? This pc dictatorship makes me want to scream!

I can't help thinking that people who squeal self-righteously every time they hear a word but don't consider the context are barking emptily like Pavlov's dogs, parroting a half-baked fad that they are blindly copying and have in no way thought through. That is an indication of extreme narrow-mindedness and owes little to rational thought or intelligence. The reaction that words must be banned is closely akin to the burning of books and is about as "un-pc" as it is possible to be. Indeed, when you consider it, there is nothing less pc then pc itself which is why it is a nonsense.

Nigger was the name of a dog in an age whan it was not offensive. In conjunction with the word "brown" it was (and accurately still is) also a colour in an artists pallette and in textiles. It is not in any way derogatory in any of those contexts. It may be if applied to a coloured person in a derigatory manner - "may be" because some use it amongst themselves, demonstrating again the importance of context.

A faggot is just a bundle of wood in the UK but in the US can also be applied to a certain persuasion of male. If you're referring to firewood it is fine, whyever not? A fag is a cigarette in the UK, but that is out of context in the US where it is certainly somewhat derogatory. Americans still speak of coons without feeling contentious as it is short for a type of animal that we don't have here, which is why on this side of the pond it is best avoided. In Norfolk a dyke is full of water. Anyone who gets offended at that is full of something else a dyke might sometimes contain. An Australian calls his best mate a bastard. So what?
I don't think it would be right to call a dog Nigger nowadays, but it is a bizarre form of Victorian prudery to censor its use in a historical context, like putting pants on Micheal Angelo's David. Quite why injuns or blackboards could be seen as offensive is utterly beyond my comprehension, but reminds me that the age of religious bigotry and blinkered intolerance in which we burned heretics and drowned witches is not as far away as it ought to be.

There are certainly some words that probably should not be heard in public, particularly on the public media as they will always cause deep offense in some people, but these words have no meaning but ones that are utterly and deliberately offensive. Nigger, when applied to the RAF's most famous dog is not one of them.

Lightning Mate

18th Feb 2011, 15:12

However, the point is that the dog had a name which was considered to be generally acceptable at the time and it is not necessary to change its name now.

:D:D............

bingofuel

18th Feb 2011, 15:14

“Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”

The words of a rather famous statesman of the period. And if we keep changing the recorded facts, how will future generations learn from history if the records are inaccurate?

Mr_Grubby

18th Feb 2011, 15:16

http://www.btinternet.com/~simon.gurry/Dadsphotos/book9.JPG

In my youth I worked as an agricultral labourer at RAF Scampton.

This is an extract from my autobiography.

One of my tasks was the upkeep of Niggers grave. Nigger was the Black Labrador pet dog belonging to Wing Commander Guy Gibson, Commander of 617 Squadron. On the night of 16th May 1943, Nigger was killed by a car when he strayed beyond the camp boundaries just as 617 Squadron crews were preparing for the raids on the Ruhr Dams. Gibson was devastated. Not only had Nigger been a friend, he had also been the squadrons mascot. He asked that Nigger be buried in a plot of land outside 617 Squadron hangers. There he remains to this day. He has a small rectangular plot with a marble headstone. I would make sure that the grass was always neat and whenever possible flowers were in abundance. A local story that has been circulating for many years is that Nigger was never buried there at all. The airman tasked by Charles Whitworth, the station commander, to arrange the burial sold Nigger to the local nackers yard. Whether this is true or just urban myth, who knows.

The inscription reads

Nigger

The grave of a Black Labrador Dog.

Mascot of 617 Squadron. Owned by Wing Commander Guy Gibson VC, DSO, DFC.
Nigger was killed by a car on the 16th May 1943.

Buried at midnight as his owner was leading his Squadron on an attack against the Mohne and Oder Dams.

C.

Evanelpus

18th Feb 2011, 15:38

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I believe that if Guy Gibson's dog hadn't been called what he was called,

His name wasn't what he was called, it was nigger! and if this offends anyone, tough! That was the dogs name, pure and simple.

God almighty, all this PC bull**** does my head in.

Genghis the Engineer

18th Feb 2011, 16:04

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I believe that if Guy Gibson's dog hadn't been called what he was called, you wouldn't be writing a magazine article about him.

It is an offensive word, regardless of what some people,on this forum seem to think. I get the impression that some people love slipping the subject of Guy Gibson's dog into a conversation because it gives them an excuse to use that particular word.

I probably won't bother reading the rest of this thread as I can already guess I'm going to get a right slagging-off. You can call this post 'politically-correct BS' if you want. I call it being respectful.

On the whole, I think you're wrong. If the dog had been called Coaldust, or Snowdrop, it would still be an incredibly poignient story within a broader story of great historical, national, and sentimental significance to any Brit who cares about our history, particularly our aviation history.

G

Phileas Fogg

18th Feb 2011, 16:04

Could have been worse ... atleast the Dutch haven't named a street after the dog :)

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5019/5456885980_c1eba0c19d_z.jpg

frequentflyer2

18th Feb 2011, 16:59

Editing of the thread to remove the offensive word would result in it being given the title "What really happened to Guy Gibson's black labrador?" .........or "What really happened to Guy Gibson's labrador?"..........or "What really happened to Guy Gibson's dog?" The question could be fully answered without the word being used.
If my concern about the use of this word places me firmly in the ranks of the "PC Brigade" then so be it.
Other contributors have made reference to issues such as the cigar on Isambard Kingdom Brunel's statue and use of the term "blackboard". Neither of these are relevant. My concern is solely about the inclusion of a word which is used to insult, deride and belittle people on the basis of their skin colour.
The word does not need to be used and should not be a part of anyone's vocabulary in 2011.

Herod

18th Feb 2011, 17:12

Actually, Nigger wasn't killed at all. In the film, towards the end, Gibson and Barnes-Wallis are talking and a black dog can be seen running in the background. The film crew were adamant there was no dog on the airfield at the time. Spooky or what?

Lightning Mate

18th Feb 2011, 17:52

My concern is solely about the inclusion of a word which is used to insult, deride and belittle people on the basis of their skin colour.

Would that be like the IRA with camouflage paint on their faces in the 70s?

Genghis the Engineer

18th Feb 2011, 18:33

jensdad

18th Feb 2011, 19:39

Quoting Genghis the Engineer: On the whole, I think you're wrong. If the dog had been called Coaldust, or Snowdrop, it would still be an incredibly poignient story within a broader story of great historical, national, and sentimental significance to any Brit who cares about our history, particularly our aviation history.

Quoting Evanelpus: His name wasn't what he was called, it was nigger! and if this offends anyone, tough!

Maybe I did a disservice to the thread starter when saying that but for the dog's name, he wouldnt be writing the article. I agree with Genghis that the story is a poignant one and I wouldnt advocate writing it out of the story of Guy Gibson & the 'Dambusters' just because of the little fella's name. I definitely don't mean any disrespect to Guy Gibson, who lived in a different era to ours.
However, I feel that some people (as demonstrated by evanelpus) take any opportunity to demonstrate to the world how 'un-PC' they are by insulting people. If hurt feelings are the unintended result of well-meaning frank and free speech, then so be it. Unfortunately though, some people gratuitously use insulting language then try to make themselves out as being on a noble crusade for free speech.

Anyway, what has all this got to do with aviation? ;)

DC10RealMan

18th Feb 2011, 19:45

I cannot help but laugh at this nonsense. I would have thought that it is of more importance that over half 617 Squadron aircrew died in this magnificent feat of arms, two of whom were from my home town Sgt John Wilkinson and Flt Lt Bill Astell- God bless them all

tail wheel

18th Feb 2011, 20:34

Even here in our enlightened Antipodean society, we have the same crass stupidity:

'Nigger Brown' stand gone, Coon cheese next on hit-list (http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/nigger-brown-gone-coon-cheese-next/2008/09/26/1222217491581.html)

Personally, I believe the Government should remove Idiot Pills from the sunsidised pharmaceuticals list! :mad:

Found this:

In 1999, the British television network ITV broadcast a censored version with each of the twelve utterances of Nigger deleted. Replying to complaints against its censorship, ITV blamed the regional broadcaster, London Weekend Television, which, in turn, blamed a junior employee as the unauthorised censor. In June 2001, when ITV re-broadcast the censored version of The Dam Busters, the Index on Censorship criticised it as “unnecessary and ridiculous” censorship breaking the continuity of the film and the story. Versions of the film edited for US television have the dog's name altered to "Trigger".

The name has caused some controversy with a new remake of The Dam Busters, produced by Peter Jackson. A 2009 newspaper article suggests that the name will be changed to "Nigsy" in the new film.

And we accuse other countries of re-writing history.......... :ugh: :ugh:

RAAF Warrant Officer Len Waters (1924 - 1993) flew 95 missions in Kittyhawks during WWII. Len left school in grade seven, became a sheep sheared and enlisted in the RAAF intending to become a driver/mechanic but ended up a pilot.

Len was an Australian Aboriginal. He named his Kittyhawk "Black Magic". I guess some will find that name offensive too?

frequentflyer2

18th Feb 2011, 21:27

"Would that be like the IRA with camouflage paint on their faces in the 70s?"

Sorry but I don't understand this question. Could you explain exactly what point you are making. I thought we were discussing the use of a word which, whether people care to admit it or not, is used to insult and intimidate black people. I feel that in 2011 its use is not acceptable.
I'm sorry if my opinion offends some members of PPRUNE but I feel strongly about this.

Phileas Fogg

18th Feb 2011, 21:36

FF2,

You just don't 'get it' do you?

The word is not used to offend coloured people, the word may be used to offend coloured people, indeed I consider you to be offensive yourself by referring to 'coloured' people as 'black' people.

In this thread the word is being used merely to identify the name of an animal, an animal that has it's place in history, I can't change history, can you change history?

goudie

18th Feb 2011, 21:51

I recall reading somewhere that black people find being called 'coloured' is offensive and patronising. Inasmuch that 'coloured' could mean any colour!
The continual drone about the rights and wrongs of W/C Gibson naming his dog nigger and now airbrushing it out, is surely becoming somewhat tiresome. Wasn't there a practise to p!ss on the dog's grave after a night on the lash?

Phileas Fogg

18th Feb 2011, 21:57

goudie,

Reading is one thing, saying it to their face is another, what sounds better, "the coloured gentleman" or "the black dude"?

goudie

18th Feb 2011, 21:59

How about 'black gentleman'?

Avitor

18th Feb 2011, 22:02

And the man who set all this PC in motion to ease the transition into multiculturalism....is now Orange coloured. :)

Phileas Fogg

18th Feb 2011, 22:10

goudie,

It's not even worth discussing or arguing about, this is an aviation history/nostalgia forum, most people know precisely who/what 'Nigger' was, it is only those making a fuss out of the usage of the name that are drawing attention that may offend others.

Let it rest and it shall soon fade away in to the archives!

ShyTorque

18th Feb 2011, 22:51

While the subject of dogs' names is being aired, it's worth remembering that the children's series "The Woodentops" was banned by the BBC because the dog's name "Spotty" was offensive to people with acne.

Old-Duffer

19th Feb 2011, 05:50

Shy Torque,

Thanks for the prompt. Being of economic stature, I shall ask the 'Beeb' to stop playing the Eddie Cochrane song 'Cut Across Shorty' as I might find it hurtful.

O-D

Bushfiva

19th Feb 2011, 07:47

I note Wee_Tam hasn't been back. Well trolled.

Agaricus bisporus

19th Feb 2011, 12:41

Excuse me, but I find the name Wee Tam doubly offensive. Wee is deeply disrespectful towards both the vertically challenged and the incontinent - oops! Sorry. Terribly sorry, the urinally unretentive, and Tam reflects racist intentions aginst the Scots by stereotyping them as wearing Tam'o Shanters. Oh God! I said Scots! I meant people North of the border. Damn! Border is divisionist! Scots is racist too. Must call them Scottish. Oh bugger. I said God - that's Nooo! Not bugger! Now I'm being homophobic, which is discriminatory as referring to people with phobias - (and as fear is not dislike its a nonsense expression anyway). Mustn't say homo either! Noooo!
Oh! Aren't I "allowed" to dislike now? What about rice pudding, or is that different somehow?

If you must impose the intellectual paralysis of pc on yourself by all means go ahead (though in your pc world harbouring prejudices against words, thoughts and those who use them is inherently un-pc which makes pc itself a total hypocrisy by your own defiition). In the interests of democracy, which the rest of us still believe in, just keep it to yourself!
Thank you.

aviate1138

19th Feb 2011, 14:03

Dam Busters was broadcast last week on UK Channel4 or 4Plus? and a mention was made prior to the broadcast about a name possibly offending some viewers but Nigger was not altered/modified/beeped and it was the unfortunate dog's name!

Whenever Peter Jackson's version is made I do hope they use the original name, anything else would be a pathetic gesture to this PC mad world.

goldenrivet

19th Feb 2011, 15:12

agaricus Bisporus

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

THE PRECIOUSE METAL COLOURED RIVET

Wander00

19th Feb 2011, 15:54

Film is on ITV4 as I type this - wonder how many times I have watched it over the years

Tupperware Pilot

19th Feb 2011, 15:58

Its was on last weekend...and I'm sure the N word was used....:ok:

Wander00

19th Feb 2011, 16:09

They must have fimed Guy Gibson's "interview at Group", where he is asked to form the squadron, in the building in Grantham that during the war was 5 Group HQ, and subsequently became the Grantham Registrar's Office, in which Mrs W and I was married 26 years ago - even some of the same trees still around the front of the building where our wedding photos were taken.

Old-Duffer

19th Feb 2011, 16:45

Wander00,

You took your own wedding photos??? was nobody there to hold the camera and snap you and the newly endowed Mrs W??? !!!!

frontlefthamster

19th Feb 2011, 18:05

I think I can shed some light on this...

We were in the back bar of the Dog and Hammer, chatting about flying, and a chap we didn't know wandered into our absinthe-fuelled conversation, eventually revealing himself as the OP of this very thread. Well, my chums and I are not terribly tolerant, and I'm afraid that whilst he didn't end up pushing daisies by the hangar...

I'm told his sight is returning and he should be back on solids by Easter. Apparently the bandages have curtailed his surfing somewhat...

Lightning Mate

19th Feb 2011, 18:18

Now, may we close this silly thread.

Guy Gibsons' dog was named NIGGER.

It was a name which the dog was given, and is an important piece of British military history. Get over it you PC dickheads - IT WAS THE NAME OF A DOG WHO IS IMPORATNT TO THOSE OF US WHO ARE ABLE TO REMEMBER WHY WE NOW DON'T SPEAK DEUTSCHE AND DRIVE ON THE LEFT.

frequentflyer2

19th Feb 2011, 18:25

OK. First of all I don't think I am part of some over zealous PC Brigade ready to find offense in even the most innocent of comments. I have no quibble whatsoever with the use of terms such as "Taff", "Jock" or "Paddy". I enjoy a bit of banter as much as the next person. However, the attempt, several posts ago, to compare my complaint about this word to someone taking offence at being known as "Wee Tam" suggests a certain lack of thought about how this word has been used in the past and is still used today.
Guy Gibson, I'm sure, had no intention of belittling or deriding anyone when he chose this name for his black labrador. As an English man in the 1940's he probably didn't think of it as being any different to calling his canine companion Taff, Jock or Paddy.
Today, however, our knowledge of history should tell us that it is different because it is the name given by generations of violent racists to the victims of their attacks.
This is why I find the word unacceptable - it is a term used by the perpetrators of this type of violence to describe those they have murdered or left horrifically injured.
When I hear this word I think of the type of scene depicted in the Billie Holiday song "Strange Fruit".
I hope other contributors will now at least try to understand my point of view.

Lightning Mate

19th Feb 2011, 18:28

I hope other contributors will now at least try to understand my point of view.

NOT A CHANCE..........

When you are a bit older and a grown-up I might..............

forget

19th Feb 2011, 18:29

Pssst. Lightning Mate. We drive on the left in Peterborough. That's not to say that down South ........... :hmm:

Lightning Mate

19th Feb 2011, 18:32

Pssst. Lightning Mate. We drive on the left in Peterborough. That's not to say that down South ...........

Ah, but I live North of the Third World, ie Calais........

Jumbo Driver

19th Feb 2011, 18:34

Oh dear ... I blame the teachers ...

JD
:ugh:

Lightning Mate

19th Feb 2011, 18:57

but i are wun of vem innit.....

Go to Goggle and Type "Nigger" (note the upper case N).

Had to go to page 23 before I saw this.

End of story!!!!

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/nigger_with_Gibson_and_crew_617-squadron.jpg

Lightning Mate

19th Feb 2011, 19:20

OK then a question.....

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/nigger_with_Gibson_and_crew_617-squadroncopy.jpg

Lightning Mate

19th Feb 2011, 19:35

Not for Morons or a...........................oles........

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/500_niggers-grave-7.jpg

Kitbag

19th Feb 2011, 19:42

Caught the film on ITV 4 today, totally uncensored as far as I watched (had to leave it as the date for the raid was finalised).

Phileas Fogg

19th Feb 2011, 20:04

Oh, on TV today, GG jumped from his Lanc and called the 'N' word to the dog in a very loud voice.

I think the bloke in the pic that is smoking a pipe is socially unacceptable! :)

All these 'do gooders' that have complaint of the name that GG called his dog should trot off to their local police stations and, posthumously, make complaint to the police about a Victoria Cross holding British war hero and ask that charges be posthumously pressed against him for racism.

See if the laws of England & Wales, Scotland or wherever take your nonsense seriously!

Herod

19th Feb 2011, 20:26

I can see a "Nigger". Totally different from seeing a nigger (or nigrah, nigaah, depending on where in the States you come from). Now let's get on with life. People are dying in the cause of freedom all over the world. The crews of 617 did exactly that. Can't a man call his dog what he likes?

Lightning Mate

19th Feb 2011, 21:10

can see a "Nigger". Totally different from seeing a nigger (or nigrah, nigaah, depending on where in the States you come from). Now let's get on with life. People are dying in the cause of freedom all over the world. The crews of 617 did exactly that. Can't a man call his dog what he likes?

My next door neighbour has a white Yorkie called "Blackie".

C'mon Mods - shut this thread before some innocent bastard gets banned.......

Phileas Fogg

19th Feb 2011, 21:18

You're funny Lightning :)

Agaricus bisporus

19th Feb 2011, 22:03

How DARE you LM, you filthy fatherist bigot! Kindly refer to bastards as non-specifically begotten individuals in future!

ps. There was a black dog running around behind Gibson and BW at the end of the movie but it was a very long way away. Of course the camera people profanely ejaculated (hmm, have to work on that one...) it wasn't really there or they'd have got a testicular castigation for not ensureing a sterile backdrop when the scene was shot. Simple self-preservation explains that.

chevvron

19th Feb 2011, 22:07

It just occured to me, in his opening post, Wee Tam tried to make us doubt the existence of the 'car that didn't stop'.
Maybe it was the same car that, a few years earlier, according to some witnesses, helped rob us of the existence of Senior Aircraftsman T.E. Shaw, near his home close to Bovington Camp Dorset. This car also didn't stop, was never traced, and doubt was also cast on its very existence.

Agaricus bisporus

19th Feb 2011, 22:20

So, is the suggestion that in a moment of possibly inebriated inattention the dog actually ran round a corner too fast and brained itself on a rock?

Phileas Fogg

19th Feb 2011, 22:27

In the context that the word was used Lightning Mate may refer to me as a 'b@stard' should he choose to do so and I'm not the kind of nit picking sh1thead to commence, so to speak, WWIII regarding the usage of a particular word when used appropriately!

Noyade

20th Feb 2011, 07:57

What REALLY Happened To Nigger?Old but alive. For how long, depends on you Wee Tam. I want 350,000 pounds in unmarked bills deposited in a Bournemouth site. Lightning Mate above will PM you with details on the drop.

If you call the police Nigger dies. Tell no one.

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/2388/1002397.jpg (http://img262.imageshack.us/i/1002397.jpg/)

goudie

20th Feb 2011, 08:08

That photo is a little suspicious, can't quite put me finger on it. The dog looks a bit niggled though.

skytrain10

20th Feb 2011, 08:34

that photo is a little suspicious, can't quite put me finger on it.
It does, his collar was grey in the film....someone has faked this photo!!!

Lightning Mate

20th Feb 2011, 08:59

It's not a fake!

Someone just coloured the original.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/Nigger.jpg

thing

20th Feb 2011, 09:33

LOL!!

Goudie been an oldish bloke, being brought up in an era where black shoe polish was called nigger black with no racial overtones whatsoever (don't think I ever saw a non white person until I joined the RAF) and being a teacher where you have to be extremely careful...I was told in no uncertain terms that calling a black person coloured was absolutely verboten and the correct term for a black person is black.

Not that I give a ****.

Phileas Fogg

20th Feb 2011, 11:07

in the PC environment are we still allowed to mention the town of Scunthorpe?

goldenrivet

20th Feb 2011, 11:22

very much doubt it capn Fogg,I remember some years ago trying to call southend arsend due entirely to its geograhical location on maps of course local "dignetries were somewhat miffed

chevvron

20th Feb 2011, 11:30

Or indeed @rsenal Football Club.

frequentflyer2

20th Feb 2011, 11:59

OK. Perhaps I am being too PC here. If I've caused offence to anyone then I apologise unreservedly. It's just that I don't like any words which can cause hurt and this is a word which has caused deep hurt and offence to many people for reasons I've outlined.
Having said that I fully understand Guy Gibson had no intention of offending anyone when naming his dog and the word was simply a reference to the colour of the labrador's coat.
If I had been asking the question I would have said: "What really happened to Guy Gibson's black labrador?" but once again I acknowledge the OP's use of the word was strictly factual and in no way intended to cause offence. I apologise unreservedly if he felt my contributions to the thread inferred otherwise.
Whatever happened to "Nigsy" as Guy Gibson often referred to him, he was a faithful friend to a man who in his early 20's played a major part in bringing down the Third Reich and should be remembered as such.
Guy Gibson died at the age of 26. I can't help reflecting on how young 26 year olds appear to me today. It seems when it comes to war mankind never learns from the tragedies of the past.

Agaricus bisporus

20th Feb 2011, 13:12

Fairly put, FF, and thank you.

I think what enrages people so much about pc is not that some expressions cause offense - we know that and decent people avoid them, but that some (most) pc-ers take suchoffense at words that the rest of us have no idea are offensive. See, for instance, the astonishing revelation by "thing" above that coloured is absolutely verboten and black is to be used. News to me! (I thought the word black was verboten in classrooms, esp when referring to blackboards, but what would I know? Hardly consistent, is it?) And how so, when most of those we'd be referring to would be somewhere between a weak cafe au lait and dark brown? Certainly not black. It is that conceit that the normal world has to defer to their self-appointed censorship of self invented "rules" and somehow we should know about it and defer to it without discussion or exception that is so irritating, and that to my mind indicates a less than healthy preoccupation with demeaning others that is absent in the general population. It is the absolute antithesis of democracy.

Perhaps people might concentrate on things that would make the world a nicer place if that's their bag instead of seeing corruption and malice everywhere where none in reality exists. That's what the Spanish Inquisition, mediaeval witch hunts and religious extremisn almost anywhere does/did, and its UGLY.

Tankertrashnav

20th Feb 2011, 13:16

There's a Gibson way in Porthleven, Cornwall, where I believe he used to spend his summer holidays as a child.

By all accounts he was an arrogant sod, a bit like Bader, but he got results, and wasn't being paid to win popularity prizes.

Always liked black labs - poor old Nigger :(

FF2 :ok:

ColinB

20th Feb 2011, 13:18

in the PC environment are we still allowed to mention the town of Scunthorpe?

Goodness I hope so for the longest piece of graffiti I have ever seen used to run down buildings towards Elland Road and read " We all know who put the c**t in Scunthorpe but who put the rat in Yorath?"

Lightning Mate

20th Feb 2011, 14:20

frequentflyer2,

If I've caused offence to anyone then I apologise unreservedly. It's just that I don't like any words which can cause hurt and this is a word which has caused deep hurt and offence to many people for reasons I've outlined.

You have not offended me mate.

What offends me is political correctness and an inability of some people to accept historical truth.

I am an ex-Royal Air Force pilot who comes from an age when people could speak their minds without fear. I am sure that if any dead members of 617 Squadron could read this they might agree.

Try "FREEDOM OF SPEECH".

I will now leave this thread, but only after reminding all of you that history records the name of Guy Gibsons' labrador as Nigger.

OFSO

20th Feb 2011, 14:21

TD. However the German word for 'negro' is 'neger' which when pronounced by a German usually sounds like the proscribed word 'nigger'. So we just have to educate the Germans, then. (Bit of a struggle, BTW.)

OFSO (not infrequently called a piece of "white trash" by coloured friends and a bloody "ros'bif" by French friends, and no offence taken either way because I am.)

Lightning Mate

20th Feb 2011, 14:28

.......oh for Gods' sake........................................................

So we just have to educate the Germans, then

Rubbish!!!!!!!!

I own a Mercedes Benz CLK320 which says you are totally wrong!

Try educating the goddam yanks!!

forget

20th Feb 2011, 14:39

By all accounts Gibson was an arrogant sod, a bit like Bader,

Here's a first hand account that doesn't agree. Well worth a read. :ok:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/226349-63-years-ago-tonight.html#post2587122

Phileas Fogg

20th Feb 2011, 14:45

One piece of graffiti, from the old days, I recall had been painted on to a bridge across the River Dee.

One individual had scrawled "FREE WALES" and someone else, later on, had added "WITH EVERY 4 GALLONS" :)

Lightning Mate

20th Feb 2011, 14:56

By all accounts Gibson was an arrogant sod, a bit like Bader

Well, I met Bader in a certain Officers Mess in 1973, and am able to confirm that he was an absolutely rude offensive b:mad:d.

Six months later I met Adolf Galland - an absolute gentleman and scholar.

Lightning Mate

20th Feb 2011, 15:03

THE TRUTH ABOUT 617 MEN:

One correspondent says : "Bill Townsend (O for Orange) ended up working for the Civil Service. I had the privilege of working with him at Bromsgrove Unemployment Benefit Office in 1981. I remember him as being very quiet, but a true English gentleman. At the time, I didn't know who he was, as he never spoke of his background; but a few years later he died and the RAF did a flypast at his funeral. It was then that I found out who he was and what he had done."

This is a free country - I wonder why!

Wander00

20th Feb 2011, 16:02

I was a flight commander on DIOT in the early 80s: Peter K****t was the Training Officer on our (B) Sqn, and I seem to recall that his Dad had been a Dambuster aircrew

Robert Cooper

20th Feb 2011, 16:03

As a matter of interest, for many years Douglas Bader acted as an angel of mercy, traveling long distances at his own expense to hospitals to visit men, women, and children who had lost their limbs. By demonstrating how well he managed on his own tin legs he brought new hope into their shattered lives. Children still in a state of shock would perk up and take notice of this man with the big smile, cheerful confidence and tin legs, and make excellent recoveries. He became a kind of flying Pied Piper and the youngsters loved him.

Bob C

JW411

20th Feb 2011, 16:14

That may well be but I met Bader when I was a young man and he was quite unpleasant to me.

Lightning Mate

20th Feb 2011, 16:15