Qantas and the 747SP

[Jackbr]

Did anyone fly the 747SP at Qantas?

I'm interested to know how popular the aircraft was amongst QF pilots and cabin crew, or any general memories of the aircraft.

Despite operating only two aircraft (VH-EAA and EAB) the SPs flew to quite varied cities, such as HRE, CGK, LAX, HKG, NGO, DPS, AKL, WLG, HNL and I think JNB, FCO, LHR etc

[another superlame]

Back in the 80s and 90s it flew wherever QF flew. It was initially used on SYD-LAX non stop before the 747-400 was around but following the 400 it was a thorn in the side of QF. They were good aircraft but the 400 did what the SP did but with more pax, so in the end it was just a general dogs body until they were cut up.

In my opinion they should have sent 1 to Longreach instead of a -200. They were a much more interesting and unique aircraft.

[Fris B. Fairing]

Jack

I didn't fly it but from a weight & balance point of view it was a dream. Having such a short fuselage on such a big wing meant you had to do something really outrageous to get it out of trim. The great irony is that Qantas bought them to serve the NZ capital after Air NZ disposed of their DC-8s. When the 767 came along the SPs were used on trans-Pacific routes for which they were designed. There was an even greater irony after they were no longer required on the Pacific. For a time Qantas was using what was once the world's longest range airliner on Brisbane-Sydney-Brisbane shuttles (approx 1 hour).

Rgds

[Fris B. Fairing]

another superlame

In my opinion they should have sent 1 to Longreach instead of a -200. They were a much more interesting and unique aircraft.

Agree with you but why not both? I suspect it may have been a case of destroying the evidence!

Rgds

[Fly380]

I gather Air Lingus were so impressed with them that they ordered the stretched version.:E

[India Four Two]

I flew on the SP on the trans-Pacific route a couple of times in the early 80s. I thought it always looked very strange sitting at the gate, with the short fuselage.

A friend of mine in Brisbane who was a Qantas FO, told me that if they "forgot" that they were flying the SP, the takeoff performance was spectacular.

[Evanelpus]

When I was a mad spotter in the 80's I made a specific trip just to see the two when they were parked outside the BA hangers at LHR. As I recall, when it was EAA's turn, it was bloody freezing. EAB's was much more civilised though but both visits were at night and I still have the slides somewhere in the loft.

[mustafagander]

AFAIK the SP was purchased by Charlie Q to serve WLG. I operated it a few times on that run. A real handful because CASA, in its infinite wisdom, forbade any derate so we had full charge with a level off at 3000ft. Fun, fun, fun!!

Then we put her on the SYD-SFO-SYD and SYD-LAX-SYD routes where she was meant to be. Most departures were at gross weight and that lead to a dog's breakfast of fuel feed on the ground. Can't remember fully now but it was really complex for us FEOs with a standard CWT to #1 & #4 engs, inbd tank to eng for T/O to be set as late as possible prior to line up. She also had #2aux & #3aux tanks to keep us on our toes. She did other long thin routes like SYD-PEK-SYD (Beijing). It was common to be at FL430 in late crz. Planning a descent was interesting!

The engines were trimmed to C2 thrust, well below B4 on the other RR B747s so QF had a place to park less than wonderfully performing engines to run them out to overhaul hours.

It was a bitch in the circuit area because of the vast thrust changes available with tiny T/L movements. Very exciting on final!! I got to try it when I re-mustered and did base training - not fun!! OTOH a missed approach was truly exciting trying to get the beast back to normal ROC.

To sum up, the SP did just what she was designed to do quite well. She looked shabby after the need for super long range went away. Always a challenge with such tight MTW and MTOW limits and our lack of day to day familiarity with her.

[mustafagander]

AFAIK the SP was purchased by Charlie Q to serve WLG. I operated it a few times on that run. A real handful because CASA, in its infinite wisdom, forbade any derate so we had full charge with a level off at 3000ft. Fun, fun, fun!!

Then we put her on the SYD-SFO-SYD and SYD-LAX-SYD routes where she was meant to be. Most departures were at gross weight and that lead to a dog's breakfast of fuel feed on the ground. Can't remember fully now but it was really complex for us FEOs with a standard CWT to #1 & #4 engs, inbd tank to eng for T/O to be set as late as possible prior to line up. She also had #2aux & #3aux tanks to keep us on our toes. She did other long thin routes like SYD-PEK-SYD (Beijing). It was common to be at FL430 in late crz. Planning a descent was interesting!

The engines were trimmed to C2 thrust, well below D4 on the other RR B747s so QF had a place to park less than wonderfully performing engines to run them out to overhaul hours.

It was a bitch in the circuit area because of the vast thrust changes available with tiny T/L movements. Very exciting on final!! I got to try it when I re-mustered and did base training - not fun!! OTOH a missed approach was truly exciting trying to get the beast back to normal ROC.

To sum up, the SP did just what she was designed to do quite well. She looked shabby after the need for super long range went away. Always a challenge with such tight MTW and MTOW limits and our lack of day to day familiarity with her.

[Capt Kremin]

The only time I ever got to 45000 feet was on the old SP.

[forget]

As a passenger am I right in thinking that high altitudes on the SP weren't that comfortable. I seem to remember ozone affecting nasal mechanics, certainly mine, - until some sort of anti ozone kit was fitted.

[Groundloop]

I flew SYD-LAX-SFO in early Feb 1990. Flight was timetabled as an SP but one of the new -400s was substituted at the last minute.

One of the most comfortable flights I have ever done. Every passenger had about 3 seats each!

[Fareastdriver]

Not as comfortable as a BA flight from HK to LHR Xmas eve 1998. There were twelve passengers in the rear compartment so we had a row each plus. I taught a few people how to make up a scouts bed to they could stretch out on the centre seats and sleep all the way. The hosties, completely unemployed, plied us with bottles of wine until we passed out.
The shortest trip halfway across the world, ever.

[Stationair8]

For a while the 747SP, did Cairns-Darwin-Singapore in the late 90's.

Did the 747SP have dedicated flight crew, or were they part of the 747-200/300 crews?

What other airlines operated the 747SP?

[zlin77]

Sometimes see an Iranian operated 747 SP in Istanbul (LTBA), as recently as three weeks ago.....

[18-Wheeler]

Did the 747SP have dedicated flight crew, or were they part of the 747-200/300 crews?

I was never lucky enough to fly one*, but I know a few people that did and they reported them as being quite similar to the regular versions. They have a common type rating with the regular Classic as well.


* I did get asked by Luke Butler to take his from Brisbane to Asia, but I declined. Three of my other mates did the job.

[Jackbr]

Abstract question, but does anyone know where the cabin crew jumpseats were located on the upper deck?

[aviate1138]

forget
"As a passenger am I right in thinking that high altitudes on the SP weren't that comfortable. I seem to remember ozone affecting nasal mechanics, certainly mine, - until some sort of anti ozone kit was fitted."

Absolutely! I had serious sinus problems after a 747SP Lufthansa flight from Frankfurt to Los Angeles. It was around a 14 hour trip and a passenger who smoked a very smelly Meerschaum pipe from post take off to pre touchdown didn't help!

I [upper deck SLF] complained about the smoke but was told Mr Meerschaum was a regular First Class Lufthansa traveller and I wasn't, so he won! That was my last 747SP flight because of the sinus problem.

ISTR FL 450 was quite a long section of the cruise altitude. Then Concorde's FL590/600 and in high pressure/normal humidity one stepped out feeling GREAT!!!!

[stilton]

Think you are mistaken there Aviate


Lufthansa never operated the 747SP

[Sultan Ismail]

Stationair8 Who else flew the SP

South African Airways had several and I remember being on the inaugural flight (as SLF) from Cape Town to London in the "Matroosberg". Probably 1978

On the right hand bulkhead as one entered the aircraft was a plaque commemorating the delivery flight Seattle to Cape Town non-stop.

It was intended to avoid the stop in Sal Island for the SA to Europe Routes.

[treadigraph]

I recall original SP operators as Pan Am, TWA, Braniff, Syrian Arab, Iran Air, Saudia, Korean, South African, Qantas and I think Iraqi had one. Oh and CAAC and Air China?

[Evanelpus]

Loved the Brannif SP, went to LGW many times to photograph it.

[Jhieminga]

I recall original SP operators as Pan Am, TWA, Braniff, Syrian Arab, Iran Air, Saudia, Korean, South African, Qantas and I think Iraqi had one. Oh and CAAC and Air China?
There's a list on this website:
Boeing 747SP - Operators [Airlines, Registrations, Dates of operation] (http://www.747sp.com/Operators.asp)

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

Talking of short flights on the SP, I flew on China Airlines from Hongkong to Taipei in about 1994. Apparently they were commonly used on this route.

[N707ZS]

Didn't they use one as a Pope transport?

[bcgallacher]

Just as a matter of interest Iranair was the first company to take delivery of the SP but the contract stipulated they could not fly it in service until PanAm flew theirs.

[Jane-DoH]

mustafagander

What's B-4 and C-2 Thrust?

[Flightwatch]

From Memory:-

The RB211-524 on the 747 started as the B4 and was developed into the C2 then the D4.

The thrust increased from 50k to 51.5k then 53k lbs.

Standing by to be corrected

[aviate1138]

Stilton is right.

"Think you are mistaken there Aviate
Lufthansa never operated the 747SP"

The previous flight was in a 747SP from Heathrow and so I changed [I was based in Munich] to a Lufthansa flight [Frankfurt] the next week to avoid the nasty sinus problem [which was still ongoing]. How my brain mixed it up I can only put down to old age! I see I made over 150 long distance [SLF] flights in just over 2 years, no wonder my recollection is below par! :)

[mustafagander]

I think Flightwatch is right. I, too, cannot recall the numbers with much accuracy.

The concept was that as the engines aged a bit and copped a bit of gas path distress they could still make a lower thrust and stay within the EGT limits.

[trident3A]

Always thought it looked amazing in the old South African livery

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/South_African_Airways_Boeing_747SP.jpg

[tinpis]

An Iranian airlines SP skipper once told me that the high altitude exposure to Thron emissions made it impossible for him to do the business with his wife :hmm:

http://www.airpics.net/UserFiles/pics/medium/EP-IAD-Boeing-747-SP-Iran-Air/200/172m.jpg

[Runaround Valve]

I seem to remember a thing about the SP operations into Wellington. The airstrip is short, so a line was painted across the runway some distance past the threshold. The main gears had to be on the runway prior to this line, if not power up and go around for another attempt.
Does this ring a bell with Mustafagander ???.

[mustafagander]

Yes RV, there was some fancy paintwork on the runway edges and it was a requirement to have the gear on the ground by that point or go around.

Being WLG complete with all sorts and strengths of winds, there were more than a few "arrivals". Remember that no one was really current on the stubby, so each approach was a learning experience most of the time.

In the beginning reduced thrust ex WLG was forbidden by CASA for reasons best known to themselves, so levelling off at 3000ft after take off and not tearing the flaps off or busting the altitude was kinda interesting.

Speaking of flaps, the flap gauge was a bit tricky - F10 on the stubby was aligned just where F20 was on the big fella so you really had to look carefully. As I hear it, F10 seemed like enough flap for most T/Os anyway!! :ok:

[Runaround Valve]

Qantas used VH-EAB as QF161 on a Papal Charter to fly Pope John the Second. The flight was Perth - Seychelles - Rome on December 1st, 1986.

[Feather #3]

Indeed, S8, I have fond memories through a haze of fatigue of operating the said sector in the -SP.

With apologies to Sunfish, all QF crew are dedicated, but indeed the B747-100/200/300/SP is a common endorsement, so we flew all types [the -123 being a fascinating interlude!?:eek:], with the -SP being a bit of a challenge.

Other operators are covered below.

G'day ;)

[Greytraveler]

Not Quantas, so maybe an aside, but one of my fondest memories of international air travel over 50 years was the non-stop flight from JFK to Bahrain on a Pan Am 747SP in 1977. As I recall, perhaps inaccurately, the flight took some 13 hours. The plane was half full, and I played cards with the "stewardesses" (they did not mind being called that in those days).

[18-Wheeler]

Not Quantas

Who?
........

[pjac]

perhaps he meant "Stuardesses"

[N707ZS]

Thanks Runaround Valve.

Quite a lot of thread but the strangest 747SP must of been the Air Malawi charter from SAA in full colours in the eighties, was it just for one week for the presidents visit to London. It was parked by the old aircraft crossing point at Heathrow.

[qfcabin]

I'm checking with a couple of mates re the U/D jump seats..I can't remember. They seem to think one jump seat at top of stairs with galley at rear.
But i DO remember the galley that ran from R1 to L1 along the right side of the cabin. It was the coldest area I ever worked in , and till the day the a/c was retired, they could never fix it. We wore gloves and jumpers during the long night sectors ...the further we went, the colder it got...and SYD/LAX is a looong way.

[prospector]

Did an Auckland--Perth--Harare flight on a QANTAS 747SP many years ago, remember it was an awful long day, only a brief stop Perth, then on again to Harare. Not a lot of pax on this leg, had three seats each for a good sleep if required.

[aeroplanejohn]

The Pan Am crews operating the 747sp called the long galley "the Ho Chi Minh trail"