Whats a pilots job worth?

[Hold_Short]

Been thinking after last nights '60 Minute' program on the QF32 incident in Singapore, what price do you as an employer do you put on your pilots? What would you consider to be a reasonable amount of remuneration for the responsibility, experience and professionalism of a commercial pilot.

From a Captain of an A380, an Airforce pilot, to a General Aviation pilot, if your life was completely under their responsibility, what would you consider to be adiquate pay?

The reason I ask is because most passenegers I have on my flights have NO IDEA of the condidtions and pressures we are under from both CASA and our company to be legal but to 'get the job done'. Passengers are shocked to say the least when they probe further into the conditions I (unfortunately) work for...and yet I have their lives in my hands every flight!

[Hold_Short]

I know what your saying! But this normal... the only people to change it would be the employers, but I don't that changing anytime soon.

Currently, I get $14,800/year for a Single Pilot, Multi Engine IFR and on 24hr on call. And nothing writen on paper to solidfy my employment.

I hope I find another type of employment soon...

[Steve888]

$14,800/year for Single Pilot, Multi Engine IFR????

Looking at the award, the bare minimum you should be paid is around $45000, assuming you're < 5700 kgs in GA.

Looks like you're being taken for a ride and should contact the relevant authority (not sure if it's FWA, AFAP etc).

[Hold_Short]

I have already spoken to the Fair Work Ombudsman and also the AFAP but no one wants to deal with it. I fly A/C under <5700kg and I agree that the award should be paid, but I'm not sure if its Full time or casual. My argument is I AM fulltime as I have to be availiable! I've only just relocated here under false a pretense of work conditions and have a 6 month house lease. I'm absolutely gobsmacked as to the pay...

The AFAP don't want to deal with it because I havn't been there for over 6 months and I'm not a memeber! However, I can't afford it!

[Hold_Short]

This type of treatment and leadership by employers is discusting. I don't have any support from family, don't know many people in the industry and can't afford to keep moving around searching. This is what I'm saying! How can empolyers do this?? With no written contract between myself or the operator, can they do what they like? I know I made a bad mistake of moving, however, I was promised alot more during the interview than what I'm getting now.

And when you reitterate it to passengers, if they ask, they are shocked! As am I! But yet nothing changes...

[Horatio Leafblower]

Hold Short

1/. If you're not a member of the RACQ, would you still ring them up and ask for roadside assistance?

2/. If you haven't paid for a meal at Maccas you won't get one

3/. If you don't join the Union you can't possibly expect them to support you.

...On reflection, this HAS to be a wind-up :=

Nobody could spend that much on a CPL then be so stupid to move to Townsville or HID without a written contract.

...could they? :uhoh:

[Natit]

I'm on rougly $40k a year and was absolutely dumbfounded when I found out a guy I know has just scored a job managing a Big W who's on.. wait for it...

$80k per year plus housing and petrol allowances and a company car.

Where's the justice in that?

:mad:

[propblast]

In response to the original question, alot more than we are paid and especially towards the lower end. Not being greedy, but 35k a year to drive around with peoples lives in your hands. Think about it.

Hold Short: your being taken for a ride. Or in other words 'screwed' although I think you know that.

Best advice, find another job. If it has to be a non-flying job to pay the rent and pay the bills, then so be it. And I'd be ignoring the bosses calls to. In fact, I think even at the rate your on, you even qualify for the dole.

I know we can't do it on here, but companies like this should be named and shamed. Perhaps we can start a thread where people can PM the details of the situation and the company involved so it can be spread word of mouth style by those who choose to be involved.

[Jack Ranga]

You are all part of the problem. :ugh:

[VH-XXX]

I'm on rougly $40k a year and was absolutely dumbfounded when I found out a guy I know has just scored a job managing a Big W who's on.. wait for it...

$80k per year plus housing and petrol allowances and a company car.


Your mate is managing a business. He has employees, accountability for the finances etc. You are flying an aircraft and an 18 year old can do that.

That is the harsh reality.

I'm surprised he's not on 100k to be honest.

I can't believe anyone would lease anything based on an informal agreement at that rate. I sure hope it's a wind-up.

[propblast]

You are all part of the problem. :ugh:

Care to elaborate Jack??

Or was that meant to read 'we'.

XXX, I understand what you are saying there and fully agree. So having said that, what is the CP of a small to medium sized GA outfit worth? Given that he has alot of the above mentioned responsibilities plus the safety of dozens of people under his control.

We can keep going around in circles all day on this subject.

[ANCDU]

whats a pilot worth?.....easy....whatever you expect you are worth. If you accept a job as an FO on a jet for $60,000 thats all your worth!

Sounds like these days we don't think we are worth much! Funny...either do management, how did they get that idea?:ugh:

[mates rates]

But the numbers prepared to accept that sort of pay is dwindling.That's why the LCC are looking to employ pilots by setting up scam operations overseas because they are willing to accept them.

[Old Fella]

HoldShort If you are being truthful you need to go the a government authority, such as the ALP's much vaunted Fair Work Australia scheme which replaced Work Choices. Call 131394. There is no way you should be paid so little, actually works out at little over $8 per hour based on 48 weeks per year and 38 hours per week. Kids at Macca's do better.

[tmpffisch]

Holdshort, have you been employed as casual but you need to be available for any flights that come up 24/7? Do you go into work 5 days a week because that's what you're employed to do, or do you sit by the phone at home all week waiting for a phone call to come in?

[The Green Goblin]

As an employee in any business in Australia, you must sign an employment declaration which is sent to the ATO.

On the employment declaration will be your employment status (full time, part time, casual) etc. This determines your employment conditions. You should also be receiving a payslip each fortnight/week. This must describe your super/holiday pay and gross/net earnings along with your tax contributions.

If you have not signed an employment declaration, then you can take up the situation with the ATO. I'm sure they'd be far quicker to respond than any other government department. There are huge penalties for employers who do not process employment declarations.

I'd also call Lawrie Cox at the AFAP and explain your situation. I as a member would be more than happy if he gave you a hand, provided you joined when your finances improved. This is the type of thing our union should be doing to encourage loyalty from younger members.

As for FWA, contact them along with your local member of parliament, Senator Xenophon and anyone else who will listen!

GG

[Jack Ranga]

Or was that meant to read 'we'.

No, not we Tonto..............you

Care to elaborate Jack??

Propblast,

I finished an instructor rating in 1995. In my search for employment I came across one 'employer' who was charging 'instructors' yes.......charging instructors $10 an hour to instruct at his school. That's how desperate pilots were for employment.

Now, I'm no hero but that's when I told GA to blow it out its ar$e. I wasn't taking a moral stand, I just thought if this is aviation then you can shove it. I didn't fly for about 8 years after that. I was lucky enough to get an opportunity in Aviation (not flying) that paid well. There was an award, there were no scabs behind my back undercutting me and no-one was offering to pay to work at this location.

Things started to turn in aviation, to the point that employers had to pay above award to get flyers. That employers in GA can 'choose' to pay the award is a joke. That they have the option is a sad indictment on pilots that accept this.

I've had a few flying jobs, I've NEVER flown for nothing, once again, I'm not making myself out to be a hero but I'd rather not fly at all than fly for nothing.

You don't have to stand on a soapbox to make a point and when you have a bit of pride in your decisions you may be surprised at how good things can turn out in the long run. :ok:

[The Green Goblin]

Quote:
Or was that meant to read 'we'.
No, not we Tonto..............you

Quote:
Care to elaborate Jack??
Propblast,

I finished an instructor rating in 1995. In my search for employment I came across one 'employer' who was charging 'instructors' yes.......charging instructors $10 an hour to instruct at his school. That's how desperate pilots were for employment.

Now, I'm no hero but that's when I told GA to blow it out its ar$e. I wasn't taking a moral stand, I just thought if this is aviation then you can shove it. I didn't fly for about 8 years after that. I was lucky enough to get an opportunity in Aviation (not flying) that paid well. There was an award, there were no scabs behind my back undercutting me and no-one was offering to pay to work at this location.

Things started to turn in aviation, to the point that employers had to pay above award to get flyers. That employers in GA can 'choose' to pay the award is a joke. That they have the option is a sad indictment on pilots that accept this.

I've had a few flying jobs, I've NEVER flown for nothing, once again, I'm not making myself out to be a hero but I'd rather not fly at all than fly for nothing.

You don't have to stand on a soapbox to make a point and when you have a bit of pride in your decisions you may be surprised at how good things can turn out in the long run.

To me Mr Ranga, it just sounds like you were to lazy to head north. While there are always a few sharks in the waters, they don't last long. Most of the companies, do and have always paid the minimum conditions as per the award. Some even pay better.

The instructing scene has always been the same, and is dominated by 18 somethings who are prepared to hang around all week answering the phones and doing what they can for a few hours thrown their way. There are good schools that pay the award, unfortunately they have to compete with the ones who get 'cheap' labour.

Flying schools are a mugs game, the only ones with any stability seem to the ones out west owned by the airlines themselves. Of course in these schools you have cultural differences and management issues that make the award seem like a little for a lot.

[Hugh Jarse]

So you can't afford $148.00 plus GST to an organisation that can not only be your advocate, but recoup the many thousands of dollars you're being underpaid?

I am depressed :ugh:This is what our industry is coming to?

Did you not know what your contract (sic) was going to pay before you joined? You need to take ownership of your circumstances, get off your arse and sort the bastards out.

Good luck!

[propblast]

Jack, a fair enough point.

I have also made a moral stand against employers who have paid not only less than the award, but so low I actually qualified for the dole. And that was single pilot, m/e IFR and on the east coast to boot.

So I headed north, did all sorts of odd jobs in all sorts of places just to put food in my stomach, fuel in my car and beer in my fridge (not in that order;)). Did it affect my career and progression, yeah. Was it hard to handle when your mates are all getting turbo-prop and jet gigs while I couldn't even crack a s/e piston gig, yeah it was hard. All these things have made me stronger and more sympathetic.

Just as your experiences should have made you good sir.

Now I don't know this young lad or ladette or the precise details that have lead to him being in this situation, perhaps he was blinded by some thought of quick progression, maybe he thought he had jagged the one in a million job or maybe he was just plain lied to. Without the full details we can't make a judgement call.

But I can see he is asking for help and advice which others are trying to provide. You however have jumped in and made assumptions not just of me, but of others.

You are right, we don't need a soapbox. We need to stick together and help pilots out that make a wrong decision. Helping out young pilots should not be confined to crosswind techniques, engine management or speed control. Perhaps, helping them avoid the pitfalls of a cut throat industry is also part of our duty as senior pilots and mentors. Until we do, I see dark times ahead.

Hold short, I say again. Find another job to pay the bills. If you can keep this flying job as a second job, then great. If not, well you will pick up something in the future and won't be forced to work under such barbaric wages.

Rant over.

[Jack Ranga]

Mr Goblin,

I'm far from lazy ;) I've done a fair whack of travel in my day looking for work and in any case my choices were based around a two year old girl that I was feeding at the time. She was far more important to me than any job be it poverty line or award :ok:

propblast,

I haven't made any assumptions about you or anybody else. You used we as a generalisation, I don't fit into your we category if it means accepting the conditions spoken of here.

What I do find hard to believe is that any pilot could think that $14,800 for Single Pilot ME-IFR, on call 24 hours is OK? He/she has got a CPL, ME-CIR all the theory and damn hard work that goes along with it but hasn't got the ability to find out what he/she is entitled to before commencing their search for employment?

Mate, seriously, I'm not putting myself on a pedestal. I knew what a sh!t sandwich was when I was looking for work though. It's common sense mate.

[Hold_Short]

The fact of the matter here is this:

The salary is $14,800 before tax. ($270/wk after tax)
Then you get paid a day rate of $150 after every 3rd day or more of work.
So you work 2 days you only get the small salary, then if you work the 3rd day or more, you get $150 per day, ontop of that small salary.

During both the interview and training it was known to myself from the employer that the pay was going to sufficient, however that depended on the work at the time. We took a gamble! Yes! However having quite my fulltime flying job, driven for days to relocate myself and partner to the location for work, things changed. As it happens to be, the work dried out (slowed down for me, but still enough work to be shared around). Lucky for some who were already working for the company got the majority of the work and hence was left with 1 flight per week.

With the assurance from the company that there was plenty of work, it was a venture taken, but nothing gained. There was no paperwork signed on being checked to line, and was told to be contactable 24/7. Also, to come in on your days off (no flying days) to help out... if not, your looked down upon because other people do it. That I was shocked to see. Talk about free labour!!!!!! Now thats one smart boss!

On a serious note, looking back on this can be a lesson learnt, for both myself and all those looking for employment.

1. Do your reasearch on the company.
2. Guestimate the cost of relocating.
3. Ask if your full time, part time or casual, incl. holdidays?
4. DISCUSS SALARY OR REMUNERATION, incl. Super contributions.
5. Get it all writen down in black and white.


I took the boss' words for employment and now have nothing to fall back on. Its incredible however, that some employers will ask THE WORLD from their pilots and some will bow down and take it...for FREE. Not this one! I just quit.

I now have a new fulltime job at a new location starting in a few weeks. Shame it will cost alot to move again, but I have learnt from this.

And to top it off the paper work is filled and ready to be sent to proper authorities.

[Jack Ranga]

Good work :ok: