Chinook Mk6

[VuctoredThrest]

Has anybody heard any rumour or conjecture regarding the brand spanking new Chinook order (12), known as Mk6 in local parlance, specifically whether it is being cancelled (or drastcally scaled back). Today (Feb 11) had been mentioned as a 'significant announcement' to be made regarding the programme.

[CRM Monkey]

Down to 6 or 7...

[Old-Duffer]

Flight International recorded the first aircraft out of the major 'top deck upgrade' programme but is unclear whether the retro fitting equates to the new aircraft or whether we shall be back to having a mix of cabs.

O-D

[Father Jack Hackett]

Notwithstanding the whole rumour network thing, any chance we could know where the 6 or 7 figure came from?

[CRM Monkey]

I made it up...

[Evalu8ter]

Old Duffer,
The Top-Deck upgrade (aka Project JULIUS) is not the new build aircraft - they are the legacy Mk2/2As being fitted with new avionics to become a Mk4/4a variant. What this thread is talking about are the UK-spec new build CH47Fs of which 24 were ordered by the last government (in another act of unaffordable largesse...),watered down to 14 by SDSR and now under threat of cancellation as everything goes back into the mixer for PR11.

I think we'll be lucky to see them. "Traditional" RAF thinking will argue them as unneccesary once Afg is over - no doubt concerned over F35C costs. However, if they are cancelled it raises real question marks over the whole of the FRWS (esp since the SAR-H suspension) and over the understanding that the Treasury will pay for combat attrition. Oi! Osborne - you owe us two Chinooks....

[Old-Duffer]

Thank you, Evalu8ter, for putting me straight on this topic.

My next fear is that the current Chinook fleet has been pretty hard used over the years and one wonders what the 'ageing aircraft' surveys might show up.

O-D

[VuctoredThrest]

As a sort of answer to my own question the rumour is that the fate of the Mk 6 will be announced Tues 22nd Feb. And its probably not a good answer.

[Canadian WokkaDoctor]

Evalu8ter,

I don't think that the 24 airframes were actually ordered. My contacts at Boeing and some from the UK indicated that no delivery contract was signed. I think you'll find that any work was limited to requirements gathering of how the UK specs called for could be blended (seamlessly of course) into the F model programme that is optimised for a US Army configuration (CAAS cockpit among other things).

Anyhow, I've heard on the jungle drums that you’re only getting 2 to replace the 09 attrition losses.

Canadian WokkaDoctor

[VuctoredThrest]

The interesting point is that if only 2 are ordered what standard would they be ? Probably not the new Mk6 standard as that would make them oddballs-ish.

[Canadian WokkaDoctor]

VuctoredThrest,

Bang on mate! A matter for your Chinook PT leader to wrestle with. However, it's not like that hasn't happened in the RAF Chinook Force before. Three of the Mk2's were new build D's, lot 3 ac, the others were old C's. Then there were the 6 Mk2As and the 8 Mk3s. The Mk6, I think refers to F model CH47s with Top Deck and other RAF mods embodied. But I'm sure that the fleet configuration manager has is all under control!
:ugh:
Canadian WokkaDoctor

[Evalu8ter]

CWD,
You are of course correct. The "order" for 24 F Models was little more than an intention to purchase which made good headlines before the last election. We're still not actually on contract - which makes the money "uncommitted" and therefore vulnerable. However, Call-Me-Dave is in bit of a spot; he backed the 14ac purchase in parliament and has, it seemed, endorsed the move of Merlin to CHF. Like to see him spin his way out of this one!

2 attrition ac in Mk6 config would be,to all intents, useless as they would differ markedly from the Mk2/3/4 fleet....unless they were used as the prototype for a whole fleet upgrade to buy-out obsolescence issues by aligning (to a degree) with the CH47F. This, after all, was the main driver behind the Mk1 to Mk2 MLU - reconfig to something akin to the CH47D.

And you, more than most, know what a nightmare job the config manager has....

[N707ZS]

What about a few dozen old Mil 8/17s.

[VuctoredThrest]

OK, good idea - standby while we modify them with Julius digital cockpits.

[Canadian WokkaDoctor]

Best not get Evalu8ter started on that little gem! JULIUS is not, repeat not, a digital cockpit, it is a glass display cockpit. Huge, big, massive difference in the system architecture between a digital cockpit and a glass display version driven by analogue systems with loads of A-D converters thrown in to make it work.

Now if the RAF were to buy into CAAS, that would be a digital cockpit. Pin pulled, grenade thrown, ready to receive CAAS is crap responses
...............:ouch:

CWD

[minigundiplomat]

The CAAS is crap argument may well be valid, but you only ever hear it from those with a vested interest in Julius.

[Canadian WokkaDoctor]

MGD,

Agreed, but I'd widen it to the QQ boys who bang on about the 178B issues. Canadian MHLH project (CH47F with fat tanks and upgraded electrical system) and the US Army PIP programme are addressing some of the issues wrt CAAS, including moving towards 178B compliance.

Is CAAS perfect - no, is CAAS workable and does is deliver a COMMON cockpit architecture - yes.

CWD

[Tallsar]

HAS anyone from QQ done a formal safety assessment on the CAAS?

[nice castle]

That would be an expensive way to prove the blindingly obvious. It is deeply multi-layered and whilst fine for up and away, low level at night would be a poor place to have to remain so heads in.

Tbh though, I think a CAAS/Julius argument might just be a little bit irrelevant right now...:rolleyes:

[VuctoredThrest]

Its nearly Tuesday afternoon ....... D-day for Mk6?

[Squidlord]

Mk6 PDR going ahead next week. Still planning for 12 but I get the impression Mk6 funding is a bit month-by-month so even if it's not formally cancelled, the funding stream (and work) may dry up any time.

[Ron Fenest]

The way things are going there is a good chance that even if they do order 12-14 aircraft none of them will see Afghan dust in the current operational time-scale.

Combine this with the fact that reports coming back from theatre are suggesting that current lift is sufficient and you have two good excuses for not going ahead.

The problem I have is that I know of many sub-contract/system suppliers that have been asked, told and in some cases even funded to ramp up for this purchase. In the big scheme of things Boeing will view cancellation as a minor irritation but the teams in the UK already working on this will be devastated.

While the powers that be mull all this over there are a lot of highly paid people attending various costly meetings, all funded of course by the MOD, that are carrying on normal jogging billing against a potentially dying project. These same people could be using their time much more wisely attending the meetings to sort out real operational issues and problems such as DAS and Brownout!

Stop the faffing about, grow some big 'uns and announce the decision.

[ShortFatOne]

Be afraid, very afraid. MRA4 funding went to a month by month basis towards the end of 2009 and the rest, as they say, is history.:uhoh:

[Evalu8ter]

Ron,
I understand your frustration but please look at the bigger picture. Those personnel directly involved with the Mk6 will be in many cases the very same people helping to deliver solutions for dust landings & DAS. Ironically,though the Mk6 indeed may never see Afg, it's vital to both programmes as it will (if it survives) deliver Digital AFCS and the next-gen DAS to the fleet; once proven on the Mk6 they can be retrofitted to the legacy aircraft. With regard to the Mk6 buy, the whole of FRWS relies upon it. We're still massively short of RW lift according to the NAO, and it will only get worse when the SK dies. The Mk6 is much, much more than just a few more cabs to make convenient headlines; much of the future Chinook capability relies on getting access to the non-obsolescent CH47F standard.

[Ron Fenest]

Evalu8ter

I take your points completely and agree. To some extent I was having a bit of a rant but it's off my chest now. I just really hope that the bean counters do see the bigger picture and not carry on with the opportunistic approach that seems to prevail right now.

On a lighter note...retrofit DAFCS to MK4/5??? Might be cheaper to buy 46 new F Models!

[Canadian WokkaDoctor]

Evalu8ter,

Retrofit DAFCS, that sounds like a big job, are you sure you can't make do with AFCS a while longer :E? I think Ron might have a point re the Mk6, but you might want an improved electrical system to go with that new DAS. While you are at it, perhaps we could interest you in some fat tanks?

CH147F - doing what we all hoped CSAR-X was going to do!

CWD

[Evalu8ter]

CWD,
Now you're just teasing me.....

I'd love your new electrics and I do enjoy the extra gas the fatboy tanks give.

But you've not got the Block 10 CSAR-X kit; Stingers and hellfires. Fit those and I'll be at Pet in a shot!!

I don't know if we've "done the math" on retrofitting DAFCS - let alone trying to clear a unique hybrid. Might just be easier to buy new.

[Canadian WokkaDoctor]

Evalu8ter,

Weapons? That doesn't sound very Canadian, a bit too "offensive", eh? When I first got here I couldn't believe that the MHLH configuration didn't include DC M134, so I went about trying to "sell it" to anyone who would listen. Only now, after theatre reports from the CH146 fleet, are 1 Wing seriously considering an M134 requirement for CH147F.

CWD

[Evalu8ter]

CWD,
Not surprised, surely the same parochialism exists your side of the Atlantic eh? What's the point of retaining the slower less capable CH146 as an escort with M134 if you simply arm the CH47 with them in the first place.....Force size and command positions - that's why...

DC M134 - what a great bit of kit!! All the joys with a fraction of the problems!

[Sven Sixtoo]

So, Evalu8r

If the lift problem is only going to get worse when SK goes ...

Why not keep the Mk4s, up them all to Mk 4X, do the same to the 3s, 3As, and a bunch of 6s out of the shed, paint everything except the 4s yellow and do UKSAR and truly amphibious BH with a machine that will match Merlin at 1/3 the cost?

Oh and cancel Puma 2 to get the money (Eurocopter didn't give me a job on the project so it must be a stupid idea).

If you need a Project Manager, or a trials pilot, you know my phone number ...:E

Sven

[Evalu8ter]

Sven,
Far too logical and ignores one vital point. The Puma is beloved of several senior RAF hands who don't want to be seen accepting a RN cast-off. The SAR-H cancellation may well force a radical change in mindset. Who knows, there could be a nice consultancy job for you if that occurs....

SK3/3A/4/6 to a new Mk8 standard akin to the S61 Triton with all of the best Carson Bits and integrated into SKIOS. Capable cabs, UK offset and already amphibeous. Scrap Puma 2 to realise the WLC savings of driving a type out of service. If you're really daring, scrap/sell Merlin as well and modify 100+ of them.....:E

[Ian Corrigible]

Helicopters ordered for frontline 'won't fly in Afghanistan'
BFBS (http://bfbs.com/news/afghanistan/helicopters-ordered-frontline-wont-fly-afghanistan-46790.html) 18 April 2011

It is reported that new Chinooks put on order for troops in Afghanistan will not be ready in time to be deployed there because of defence cuts.

The Daily Telegraph says it has obtained information that a dozen new helicopters due to be delivered by 2013 will be delayed until after 2015 when Britain’s combat mission is over.

Labour promised the extra Chinooks in 2009 but a recent deal between the Ministry of Defence and the Treasury has seen many projects put on hold to tackle a £1 billion funding gap now. The Chinook orders have been pushed back as a result.

From the original Telegraph article: "The contract will be placed, but we will reprofile it. The delivery dates will be backloaded." Sir Humphrey would be proud.

I/C

[Pontius Navigator]

Which means the Mk 6s will be replacements for those in AFG. Who knows, maybe the old one will be handed over the the AFG AF.

[rjtjrt]

Ian Corrigible quoted - "will be delayed until after 2015 when Britain’s combat mission is over"

Don't worry. Quite far sighted of the last government really.
By then they will be needed to support your troops deployed in Libya.
John