The "Whistling wheelbarrow"

[Proplinerman]

The Argosy is an aircraft I remember well in service, both civil and military. So can I please hear your memories of working on, flying or being on board this very distinctive aircraft.

To jog your memories, here are links to the only four photos of Argosies that I have. Firstly, a RAF aircraft at Biggin in May 1973, at the annual airshow:

JetPhotos.Net Photo » XN814 United Kingdom - Royal Air Force (RAF) Armstrong Whitworth Argosy C.1 by Michael Blank (http://tinyurl.com/6gz4xfd)

Sorry, run out of time, will post links to the other photos later this week.

[Captain Dart]

It was also called 'The Whistling Tit'.

Is it true that the only cargo it could carry that simultaneously was the maximum allowable weight and the maximum possible volume for the cargo bay was....potato chips? (Hence the alternate moniker, 'Crisp Carrier').

[Evanelpus]

I remember as an apprentice being fed down the booms to wirelock the turnbarrels on the flying control cables. I was slim in those days. Someone forgot to put the notice in the cockpit not to operate the rudder. Some berk did and the barrels traversed across my forehead leaving some rather nasty gashes which took about two weeks to heal.

Just another 'war' wound from my days as a fitter!

[tristar 500]

I worked on the civil version at the Best Ever Airline 100 & 200 series.

One of the overriding memory was it was the only aircraft that I have worked on where you had to lie on the floor, to release them hydrualic accumulator pressures, the put a 9 foot pair of steps in the left main gear bay climb up, & in my case stand on the handrails so I could open the panel & check the fluid level in the hydrualic tank!!

tristar 500

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

The 'Whistling Tit' was the RAF one with the 'nipple' on the nose, wasn't it? I remember BEA Wheelbarrows at Manchester in the '60s (no nipple!).

[JW411]

I flew them for 10 years and enjoyed most of it.

[26er]

Ian told his story of his experiences on Argosies one evening in a Berlin pub and it went rather like this. "It was a dark and stormy night when as copilot I took off with Capt Paddy ??? from Turin and as we climbed I realised that something was wrong when the windscreen became buried in snow and we came to a halt on a mountainside. Later we found ourselves in adjacent beds in a hospital. The BEA Chief Pilot came to visit and Paddy asked for him to pass him his briefcase. He fumbled inside, pulled out his chequebook and said "what did you say I owe you?" "

Later on Ian was the safety pilot on the jumpseat for base training at Stansted. At V1 a simulated engine failure resulted in the aircraft cartwheeling across the Essex countryside, coming to a halt with a big hole behind them whereupon Ian called out "follow me chaps - I've done this before! "

[TheChitterneFlyer]

During the late 1970s I was a relatively new RAF Air Engineer and that, sometime after my OCU at RAF Lyneham (to the C-130K), I was asked to spend a couple of weeks at Boscombe Down to fly their C-130 whilst they were short of crew.

At that time Boscombe still had their own "Whistling Tit" and that one of the Boscombe Air Engs invited me to join him for a trip in the old lady. That particular Air Eng was MEng Lenny Edwards (who I had previously met on LXX Sqn). Given that Lenny knew that part of my basic Air Eng training was conducted on the Argosy simulator he said that I perhaps knew more about the aeroplane than he did (Lenny had said that he now had ten-hours on type)!

I followed Lenny around the aeroplane as we prepped-it for flight and that Lenny offered some useful advice... don't turn left as you exit the crew door or you'll otherwise end-up with an eye-full of VHF aerial!

The pilot's arrived on-scene and the crew got the "show on the road". Five circuits later, one of the three pilots had to get off the aeroplane to attend a meeting; hence, we landed and taxied around to the "Weighbridge Hangar" to drop the said pilot off at the dispersal (B Sqn in those days); at which point Lenny said, "I'm getting-off as well"! "Yours truly" ended-up fullfiling the Air Eng's role for the next dozen or so circuits without ever having qualified on-type.

Not long after my return to Lyneham the same aeroplane was "written-off" in a landing incident at West Freugh.

Happy days.

TCF

[Brian 48nav]

Didn't one crash there?

[TheChitterneFlyer]

Err, yes... as I said, the aeroplane was written-off.

[TheChitterneFlyer]

As far as I understand it, a propellor malfunction occured during the approach to land and that when "reverse" was selected... the aeroplane departed the runway.

[Brian 48nav]

Sorry Chitterne, I meant at Boscombe. I was in ATC there 83/6 and IIRC was told about a fatal Argosy crash happening a few years before.

[sycamore]

Also known as the `Armlong Woolworth Allsoggy` ..

[Capot]

Once again, a mere passenger's viewpoint; not a nice aircraft to jump out of if you were No 1 in the stick, due to the pronounced curve of the fuselage. You had to put your hands on the outside and try to not just fall out during the run in to the DZ......

What with the dreaded Hastings, the even more dreaded Beverley boom exit and the Argosick we didn't think much of the transport laid on for our outings in those pre-C130 days.

[TheChitterneFlyer]

Also known as the `Armlong Woolworth Allsoggy` ..


Love it... it's on a par with the Andover...an Andover, on handover, over Dover, over.

TCF

[Chris Royle]

This was a story told to me by a BEA Ground Gripper pilot.
Would love to hear if this was true, and if so, what the correct details are.
One of the regular BEA Argosy cargo runs was to Northern Italy to collect Ferraris, Lamborghinis etc. I understand that this was a 2 crew operation, and the outbound route was over the Alps, but the return route was via the southern French coast and thence up through France. This routing was because the a/c performance was not good enough to climb over the Alps when laden.
En route home from Italy, the autopliot went u/s. No problem, just meant hand flying. Came the time when the skipper wanted a pee, so he went down the stairs from the flight deck to the crew toilet.
When the skipper had not returned after about 10 mins, P2 began to get anxious, after 30 mins he was seriously worried and he decided to divert to an aerodrome in France. He could not leave the flight deck because of the inop autopilot.
After landing and shutdown, P2 went in search of the skipper. He could not be found anywhere. Perplexed, P2 then heard a faint tapping and a muffled voice. Going up the line of cars he at last spotted the skipper at the wheel of one of the cars. Opening the door, it transpired that the skipper had become curious about one of the cars and slipped behind the wheel. Came the time to stop fantasising about owning such a car, he then found to his horror that he was locked in, leading to the events as described.
A good story anyway.....

[Speedbird48]

I flew with Ian on Tristars and the story is a bit different, as is the official report.

They were outbound from LHR to Italy, and attempting an ADF approach in stormy weather with thunderstorms, when all of a sudden the thing came to a grinding halt with a lot of snow around!! They had slid onto the top of a mountain some distance from the expected arrival airfield!! Lucky lad, and then he was in the other one!! Time to give up.

I also saw one land on Salisbury Plain, and the nosewheel doors departed the airframe on touchdown!! Not a rough field airplane by any means.

The next experience with one was to load a Bristol Hercules powerplant on its stand and take it to the Chief Of the Air Staffs Valletta that had let us down just before Easter in Germany. The big problem was that with all the heavy and fancy roller flooring the darned thing would not go in, and maintain a CofG that was acceptable to the beast. It meant dismantling a lot of the cowlings and take the wheels off of the stand before it would just fit under the spar.

Hence known as the best crew transport in the RAF as that was all it would carry, plus their shopping of course!!

Another British masterpiece!!!!

Speedbird 48.

[treadigraph]

Chris, that story appears in the late Ken FitzRoy's excellent book "No Time on the Ground".

He also mentions a P2 who was on board both of BEA's Argosy losses, the first ('SXL) was inadvertently parked on an Italian hillside, the latter ('SXP) cartwheeled off the side of the runway at Stansted after a Check Captain retarded a throttle to simulate an engine failure. All crew survived both accidents.

Edit: Speedbird48 - snap! Ooops, just realised I missed some earlier posts!

[Vino Collapso]

I seem to remember that someone once said that flying the Argosy was

'rather like landing a cottage from the bedroom window'.

[NutLoose]

You will find an interesting, if sad thread here showing the demise of the"whistling tits". this page has several, but there are more on the others!

Scrapyard Photos; Any More? - Page 40 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=36444&page=40)

[ShyTorque]

As a young lad I remember seeing these delivering their cargo to "Castle Donington" Airport. They were full of flowers, often daffodils if I'm not mistaken.

They left RAF service the same year I began mine. ;)

[parabellum]

Never flew the Argosy but as a young soldier in Aden I do remember one day coming from Little Aden across the causeway to Aden proper and seeing an Argosy sitting in the water looking at us like a bloody big croc!

Regarding the Capt. locking himself in a car, did happen to a Singapore Airlines skipper on a B747 freighter carrying, I think, a 'special' Mercedes with non standard security.

Heard that flying the Beverly was like flying a council house from the upstairs bathroom window!

[chevvron]

My first ever flight (having just become a 1st Class Cadet) was in an Argosy from Benson in 1962.
One and a half hours 'circuits and bumps' - I filled 2 sick bags!
I recorded the number in my 3822 as XP447, but I understand there was no Argosy with this number.

[NutLoose]

As a young lad I remember seeing these delivering their cargo to "Castle Donington" Airport. They were full of flowers, often daffodils if I'm not mistaken.

They left RAF service the same year I began mine. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif


One still there in Elan livery in the museum.

East Midlands Aeropark - Argosy (http://www.eastmidlandsaeropark.org/argosy.htm)

[Greg Horton]

I'd never seen one of these aircraft, but just this afternoon I was looking through the current issue (Feb or Mar, not sure) of "Classic and Sports Car" magazine and there on the page was a picture of some open-wheeled racing cars being offloaded through the open nose doors of what could only be an Argosy.

[TheChitterneFlyer]

My father was "done" for speeding in Chitterne,


So was I...

[airsmiles]

I recorded the number in my 3822 as XP447

Definitely an Argosy Chevvron. Part of the batch XP408-XP450 (but there were some gaps in that range). XP447 was a T2, so I presume a special variant.

[tornadoken]

duplicate in error

[The Oberon]

I remember a story doing the rounds during the late 60s. One of the vehicles that the Argosy was supposed to transport was a fuel bowser, for those that remember, the one with the oval tank. It fitted fine but it was found that the Argosy floor was not strong enough. The floor was strengthened to suite, guess what, the strengthening was added above the existing floor which meant that there was now not enough height clearance to get the bowser on. Ho-hum.

[tornadoken]

chevvron #24: XP447 was one of very few to move on after its RAF service, to Alaska & California as N1430Z.

AW650 was a political invention, though this time by industry, not Ministry. After Thin-Wing Javelin was cancelled (much fabrication would have been in Coventry), Hawker Siddeley in mid-1956 did not know what to do with AWA. The last of 119 Hunter F.6 was for delivery 2/4/57, last of 57 Javelin F.A.W.7 in ’58, last Vulcan tail would emerge in ’62. AWA's Board extracted HSAL £ in Sept.,’56 for R&D and to lay down 10 AW650 Srs.100. They minimised cost by adapting Lincoln wing and taking Dart with minimal installation engineering (should of course have been Tyne, with much, which RR, as was normal, declined to fund). 7 were taken up by Riddle, for whom roll-on/roll-off was helpful on the Arctic DEW-Line. The other 3 were bought by MoA in 1961, leased to BEAC.

The titty variant was a fluke: UK had paid lip service to the 1958 Nato Basic Military Requirements, hoping to win business without having to buy any of them: they were all part-US funded for the explicit purpose of starting up Aero design competence in NATO's W.Germany. NATO's choice for the field transport NBMR was Nord/VFW C.160 Transall. Its use of Tyne was good, but what it was not was what RAF wanted to haul the new Rapid Deployment Force: C-130E. Ministers in 1959, an Election year, were interested in exporting jobs neither to Georgia nor Bremen. Claiming that UK's need was urgent such that we "could not wait" for C.160, MoA ordered 56 AW660 "off-the-shelf".

It did well on time (OCU, 1/62; Transall in service 1967), but it had no payload/range. BEAC had 6 faintly-better Srs.200, 1965-70. RAF slipped 66 C-130K into 1965's US credit-package and relegated the barrow to Signals.

[JW411]

TheChitterneFlyer:

"When 'Reverse' was selected....the aeroplane departed the runway".

A particularly clever trick indeed since the Argosy wasn't equipped with reversing propellers!

The fatal at Boscombe Down was XR105 on 27.04.76. An Italian Air Force officer, who was attending the Empire Test Pilots School course, lost control on a 2-engined approach. He and the flight engineer were killed.

[27mm]

Didn't fly it, but was based at Cottesmore while 115 Sqn were there. They would fly CT sorties on occasion, bashing the circuit for what seemed like eons - I remember one of the pilots transmitting "Downwind for crew and ration change". The crews liked to joke that when doing the pre-flight walkround, if the nose was wet, it was serviceable. IIRC, there was a ranger to Teheran which took something like 3 or 4 weeks, due to various problems, such an engine failure and 3-engine cruise height being well below safety altitude. Names that I recall are Officers Baron, Burns, Hayward and IIRC, Commander (though he may have been on 360 Sqn). Happy days....:)

[Boxkite Montgolfier]

For my sins I flew both RAF and 'commercial' Argosies and recall the well kept training exhortation " When climbing the Argosy please remember not to loose any height! "

Great fun at Benson one night looking in adjacent villages for a nosewheel which went missing on night roller landings !
I seem to recollect that an old lady found it resting against her cottage back door!

There are many more gems- what say the Old Boys?

[TheChitterneFlyer]

A particularly clever trick indeed since the Argosy wasn't equipped with reversing propellers!



My apologies... it was my wrong assumption and that I had in fact mixed-up the wrong event; however, it was a landing gear malfunction which caused the runway departure at West Freugh.

[diginagain]

Didn't fly it, but was based at Cottesmore while 115 Sqn were there.Got to wash one of 115's cabs on ATC summer camp. Seemed impressive, to an impressionable 14-year-old.

[barry lloyd]

I seem to recall that in order to open the forward doors, it was necessary to operate a large hydraulic pump lever. I also remember a rainy night in Blackpool, when the lady pilot (Lesley?) was operating the civvy version (ABC Cargo) of it on the newspaper run to Dublin. I would have offered to do it for her, but she seemed to be doing very well on her own...:O

[zetec2]

Oh joy, spent nearly 3 years as an engine fitter on the devices, really quite a trouble free time engine wise, don't you hust love RR Darts, although we did upgrade to a later Dart variant to give more power in 63 ? started at Benson early 64, then Khormaksar with 105 Sqd April 62 - May 64, then short time back at Benson before moving on to Victors, Much fun with the beast, regular runs around the Middle East & down into Africa, didn't carry much & didn't go very high (lots of limitations) but could carry a freight bay full of toilet rolls on a fortnightly basis from K'Sar to Perim, soil from Kenya to K'Sar for the bosses garden, small loads of passengers but not the vehicles for the Army it was designed for (Saraccen/Salladin), did manage to get the low load fuel boswer in once though but it had to be empty, although it did eventually get signed off by Boscombe to have MAUW from 85,000 lbs's to 105,000 lbs mid 63, didn't make much difference though as it seemed to be a good VIP carrier but not a lot else !. Also had an oddity in XP409 in that it had a nail embedded in the fuselage, stbd side just above the fuselage datum, story goes that when the new Coventry Cathedral was consecrated back in 61, 6 big nails from the structure of the old Cathedral were presented each to 6 of Coventry's major industries , Armstrong Whitworth being one of them, first entry in the aircraft F700 was "nail in forward fuselage at station ???", still looking for pictures of the nail, mine have been long lost !. Re the comments about loading Hercules power plants for Valetta's, puzzled, we used to load them complete on stands for 233 Sqd on a regular basis to fly up country after their engine failures, can generate photo's to show.
My time came to an end just after XP413 was converted into a flying boat on the approach into K'Sar long story about finger trouble with an aircraft full of concrete ballast & the lack of ability to fly on only 2 engines on the same side, but as before that's another story.
Thought it was a nice aeroplane but that's just my opinion as an engineer. PH.

[Cornish Jack]

JW411 re. the Boscombe accident ... nearly!!
The Italian TP Student attempted a '2 out same side' go around which was a total No-No!! I crewed the Boscombe Sea King which was scrambled to the bomb dump to try to assist. Not much we could do apart from take the injured Captain (Vic???)off to Tidworth Mil Hospital. Given his apparent condition, I didn't expect to see him around again. If I recall correctly, he was out and about some six weeks later!!:ok::D
Seems he was thrown through the windscreen and away from the main wreckage - remarkable.

[teeteringhead]

I certainly remember the "strengthened floor reduced the headroom so it couldn't get the vehicle in" line in the Gulf in the early 70s which The Oberon and zetec2 mention at posts #30 and #38, but I'm sure it was a Ferret Scout Car when I heard it. Hope it's true

Also amongst the banter (and I wasn't flying Argosies) was about the LM who was Court martialled for leaving his payload on top of his locker ......

.... but it did do a very good 'bus service around Bahrain, Sharjah, Masirah and Salalah .. (BFPOs 63, 64, 65 and 66 respectively IIRC - amazing what the mind retains)

[brakedwell]

I enjoyed four years on the Argosy. Didn't take many photos, but here are a few I took when on 105sqn in Aden. 1964-66. The quality isn't brilliant on some, but I have posted them as they are quite interesting historically.

Masirah 1965

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/sedgwickjames/aviation/Argosy-Masirah.jpg

Take-off in Bahrain 1964

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/sedgwickjames/aviation/0185488.jpg

Mombasa leave flight 1965

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/sedgwickjames/aviation/Mombasa.jpg

Flight Engineers station

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/sedgwickjames/aviation/MyFltEngineer.jpg

Climbing out of Mombasa

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/sedgwickjames/aviation/ArgosyoverKenya.jpg

Over Sudan

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/sedgwickjames/aviation/Argosy-RollsRoyceDarts-1.jpg

Preparing for a Radfan drop.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/sedgwickjames/aviation/Argosycabin.jpg

[zetec2]

Life on 105, Khormaksar, remembering the "strengthened floor", at the front of the freight bay underneath the floor were the inverters & sundry other electrical gizmo's, caused some difficulties when the inverters failed with a loaded freight bay, simply it wasn't possible to open the rear clamshell doors to move the freight out to enable the floorboards (some "millions" of screws all with buggered heads from loading freight before we used Rollamat) to be lifted, don't remember the details (mod number) but a fix was introduced to enable this to be accomplished, but do remember it was introduced on XP409 first, an aircraft that had had an electrical fire in the battery box & had "non standard" wiring, so when it was to be introduced to the fleet caused some head scratching as it was found not all aircraft had a "standard" electrical fit IAW the AP wiring diagrams, we all had our "own" aircraft as travelling groundcrew, an airframe,electrical & engine tradesman, went with the aircraft up & down the route (jollies they were, usually ended up as tea boy) mine was XP439, lovely machine. With reference the low fuel bowser, it did fit , reversed in, with the cab fitting in the rear area below the rear escape hatch, we took them down to Matsapa for the Swaziland troubles then they were shipped to Salisbury (Southern Rhodesia for the youngsters, when we had an Empire) where they may still be ?.

So many happy memories PH.

[Speedbird48]

26er,

Just to help get the record straight I have found my reference to the BEA Whistling Wheelbarrow that flew into a large hill in Italy on April 7th, 1965..

It was G-ASXL flying BE2120F from LHR to Milan, Linate. They were attempting an ADF approach in a thunderstorm. They thought they were at the Linate NDB and were cleared down to 2000ft, and next called established on the ILS??

They arrived on the hillside, 2000ft high, at just after 19-10 and were 33 miles from the field and on the centerline.

And the training accident at Stansted was on 15th December, 1967.

As I say I flew with the F/O when he got to the Tristar. I think I would have given up after two lucky escapes!!

Speedbird 48.

[JW411]

zetec2:

By the way, the MTOW was normally 97,000 lbs (not 85,000 lbs). When MOS (Military Operating Standards) was authorised then this went up to 105,000 lbs. At that weight, the aircraft was well outside Perf A limits so an engine failure on take-off was not considered.

I was on the Argosy from 1962 until the end of 1971 and served on 105, 114, 267 (twice) and also managed 5 ARDETs in Bahrain.

Generally speaking, it would have been a much better aircraft (performance wise) with Dart 12s and reversing props but it was very reliable piece of kit and we took it into places (such as Bait al Falaj) that it was never designed for. Coming out of Bait at 105,000 lbs was guaranteed to get your attention.

I did a fair amount of bundu-bashing with it to such places as Fahud, Ibri, Firq, Buraimi, Tawi Hamad, Tarif, Heima, Jebel Dhana, Das and Azaiba. It never let me down once.

The 90hp Rover APU was also a wonderful bit of kit. It gave us huge independence and the only thing that ever used to need changing was the glo-plug. On the odd occasion that it needed changing, the flight engineer usually had a spare in his toolkit.

[TheChitterneFlyer]

JW411


A particularly clever trick indeed since the Argosy wasn't equipped with reversing propellers!



Actually, all of the Dart series engine/propellor combinations were equipped with Reverse Thrust. It was only the civil variants which were "reverse disabled". It was considered that the pitch change from Flight Fine Pitch (FFP) to Ground Fine Pitch (GFP) was entirely sufficient for the braking purposes of civil aircraft. Hence, the military version was, indeed, equipped for Reverse Thrust capability (short field operations).

My source of information is directly from the RAF Pilots Notes and a copy of the Dowty Rotol Handbook; also, my basic Air Eng training also described the propellor operating system in great detail (Reverse Thrust included).

The same engine (actually a Dart 201) is fitted to the Andover C1 and, to this day, the "Boscombe" Andover demonstrates its "reverse capability" to those who wish to use it.

TCF

[zetec2]

Well JW411 guess our paths obviously crossed, I went out to K'Sar & Nairobi early March with the 2 trial aircraft XN847 & XN849 carrying out the hot & high before then going out with 105 for my holiday, sorry tour, agreed the APU was a brilliant bit of kit but you obviously never had to change one in the Aden heat, I did & being stuck up the boom in the afternoon heat was not a pleasant place to be, what's this bit about the Flight Eng being able to fix problems, usually found them issuing instructions from the cool of the mess whilst us real engineers fixed the faults.

Also re the props & reversing, as I remember from prop changes we set the prop angle before putting the dome back on (don't remember the actual angle) to Ground Fine Pitch (always known as Discing !) our (105's) Argosies definitely didn't have a reverse facility, maybe the ability to was available but not used ????.
Regards, PH.

[brakedwell]

Reverse pitch was not available when I flew RAF Argosies. Had it been we would have been able to reverse out of nose in stands as we used to do in the Britannia. I am sorry you have got it wrong TCF, military Argosies like their civil counterparts only had Ground Fine Pitch to assist the braking.

[BEagle]

Heard that flying the Beverley was like flying a council house from the upstairs bathroom window!

Council houses have bathrooms?

Re. the Whistling Tit, there was once some brilliant idea in the RAF to turn them into T Mk 2 multi-crew trainers - with QFIs, U/T pilots, U/T air engineers, air engineer instructors on the flight deck - and a misplot of astrologers in the back learning to be navigators. Fortunately this daft idea was soon canned, thanks to defence cuts reducing the requirement for non-fast jet aircrew!

When we were handled by Duncan Aviation at Lincoln Nebraska once during an RAF VC10K trip, they told us that they still operated the Whistling Tit somewhere north - and if we knew where there were any spare windscreens, they'd pay a lot for them!

[VX275]

As a by-product of working at Boscombe Down I get access to and spend some time reading the old reports and one that has always intrigued me was the one on the Argosy armament trials.
Built and operated at a time when there was still a little colonial policing to carry out I suppose the sight of an Argosy carrying 6 1000 lb bombs shouldn't be surprising, but to me it is.
I thought that this installation was a one off until I noticed the 3 hard points and electrical connectors along each lower fuselage chine of the Argosy at the RAF Cosford museum.

[stackedup]

Come on Jock, after ten years you have got enough stories to write a book so share some , please !http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[Loki]

There was a small cargo concern at Heathrow called Sagittair, operating 3 (IIRC) Beech 18s....they used to operate mostly at night, often to Geneva. This would have been circa 1970. They then equipped with Argosies (I don`t remember how many) and promptly went bust. I`ve often wondered if this was some ruse, and some sleight of an accountants hand was involved, as it seemed like a radical shift in business model.

[brakedwell]

I have many fond memories of the Argosy, which was very reliable and pleasant to fly. It only let me down once when a series of inverter failures enroute from Matsapa to Cheleka (Blantyre, Malawi) brought us to a grinding halt. The only passenger on board was the airport manager, who had been on an ATC liason visit to Swaziland. He insisted the crew was shared out amongst the five expat families employed at the airport.
Khormaksar despatched four new inverters to Lusaka via Nairobi on East African Airways. They were transferred to a Zambian Air Force Beaver, which had an engine failure and forced landed in the bush. A second set of inverters eventually turned up ten days later, bringing to an end a most enjoyable stay.
Another memory is best forgotten. We were tasked to drop two (14000lb) Boscombe Platforms on Tangmere airfield. The first run went to plan with the platform landing in the middle of the target area. We ran in for the
second and final run at 1200 feet and released the remaining platform at the same position as the first. The extractor chute deployed and the platform started off down the cabin like an express train until it reached the rear sill, where it suddenly jammed in it's runners, the main parachutes were pulled out and wrapped themselves round the tailplane. With 14000lbs stuck on the sill the C of G was outside limits. The nose reared up and the speed decayed alarmingly. It took both of us with full nose down trim to keep the speed above 80 knots. Fortunately the severe buffeting and high pitch angle eventually dislodged the platform, which fell off the sill and landed in a ploughed field beyond the western boundary of the airfield. We managed to regain full control around 400 feet and flew back to Thorney Island in silence!

[Handley]

When I was in the RAF serving in the MEAF Command area I flew mostly in Valettas and a Hastings but never in an Argosy. However I was told that for a Whistling Wheelbarrow to take off it needed to get to flying speed while still on the runway and then simply retract the undercarriage! Anyone know how true this is?

Handley

[zetec2]

brakedwell,

Re the Matsapa trips, I was on one of the first in, my list shows in XP408, pilot was a Flt Lt by name of Mori or Murray ?, he who later landed with the brakes on & blocked the runway, anyway you will remember that us engine chaps had to check engine & gearbox oils soonest after shutdown & we normally went out of the cockpit escape hatch onto the roof & down onto the wings, it was a surprise to find very neatly going through the vortex generators & down the side of the fuselage about half a dozen very neat holes, we had been shot at on the approach in, never found any bullets inside or who did it, I had the unpleasant job of going through the rear cockpit door in the heat & humidity down among the air condition pack to try & find any damage, none found ???, aircraft had the holes patched with aluminium tape & returned to Nairobi low level with no pressurisation, Fl Off John Church the JENGO signed it off & went back with it by request of the crew, Bill Aspinall in charge if I remeber correctly, we did have fun those days !. This could go on for weeks as there are many & varied tales to tell, PH.

[chevvron]

In my early days as an assistant at West Drayton, BEA still operated Argosies on a night time freight run to Paris. The outbound clearance was usually something like 'Seaford One Departure climb to FL70 to be level by the FIR boundary'. Needless to say they rarely managed this, in fact you were lucky if they made 4000ft by the south coast! The only saving grace was the Air France freighter was a Breguet Deux Ponts, and that had a rate of climb even worse!

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

In Australia, Brain and Brown operated a 100 Series Argosy VH-BBA for a period in the early 1970's and then the aircraft was purchased by Ipec Aviation who operated three aircraft up ontil 1990.

Ipec operated them on the Bass Strait night freight run between Essendon and Launceston until replaced by the DC-9.

Safe-Air in NZ also operated them on freight work and also out the Chatnam Islands in a combi onfiguration.

The climb rate on an Argosy out of Melbourne on a hot night, was mainly due to the curvature of the earth.

Long live the whistlin' wheelbarrow.

[JW411]

TheChitterneFlyer:

I'm sorry old son but you are talking through a hole in your head. The Argosy was never ever equipped with reverse thrust. In flight, the propellers were allowed to fine off back to the Flight Fine Pitch Stop (FFPS). During the landing run with the throttles closed we had to manually move a lever on the centre pedestal which allowed the propellers to fine off even more to the Ground Fine Pitch Stop (GFPS).

If this was forgotten, then all four engines melted down very quickly when the throttles were opened to taxi in. It happened twice; once at Luqa and again (I think) at Thorney Island.

When the props went into Ground Fine, the discing effect of the propeller created a lot of drag but no reverse thrust. This drag was exactly the same whether you were doing a normal landing or a tactical landing and was purely a function of at which speed you were doing when ground fine was selected.

The Andover C.Mk.1 was equipped with Da12 engines and reversing propellers.

The Argosy did not. It was not possible to reverse an Argosy. Which reminds me of a funny story.

I arrived at Lyneham one morning and they tried to park me in one of the old wartime dumbell parking spaces. I stopped on the taxiway and got the ALM to go out through the nose hatch to explain that if I went in there, I would not be able to get out again. Fairly rapidly I had an irate wingless wonder Sqn Ldr on my flight deck telling me that all I had to do was reverse out. "Can't be done Sir", said I, "we don't have reverse thrust". "Yes you do, don't argue with me, I have read the books", said he.

"Fine", said I and taxiied into the dumbell and shut down. "Now you get it out, Sir", said I.

Needless to say they didn't have an Argosy towbar and one had to be flown over from Benson.

You simply cannot reverse an Argosy old son.

[Krakatoa]

Can somebody tell me, did the Shackleton Mk3 wing go onto the Argosy or did the Argosy wing go on to the Shackleton Mk3.

[brakedwell]

I had an interesting experience in Masirah. 105 sqn Argosies operated a thrice weekly schedule to Ryan, Salalah and Masirah. Departing Aden at 0700 the RSM consisted of three 1.30 minute sectors with one hour turnrounds at Ryan and Salalah before arriving at Masirah for a nightstop. Scheduled arrival time was 13.30. The officers Mess bar always closed promptly at 1400. If we were on time it was possible to sink a quick cold beer before the shutters came down. I will always remember the disapproving looks from behind three week old newspapers as an Argosy crew rushed through the anti-room at 1355! On one RSM the bar closed early and the barman refused to serve us when we arrived at 1350, so on our next RSM we were determined to beat the system. Khormaksar Air Movements did a brilliant job and we departed with a full complement of passengers, freight and mail thirty minutes early. The turnround times at Ryan and Salalah were halved and we headed for Masirah with an ETA of 1200, thirty minutes before the Officers Mess bar was due to open!
We approached along the south east coast of Masirah at very low level, intending to catch out ATC. As we rounded a rocky outcrop at 100 feet we surprised a submarine sitting on the surface, about half a mile ahead and 100 yards from the beach. It crash dived in a mass of bubbles and sat on the sandy bottom, fully visible in the shallow blue water. We climbed to 1000 feet and reported our find to Masirah. Keep it in sight they said, we will inform HQMEAF. Five minutes later we were told a Shackleton was being scrambled from Aden and we were to remain airborne over the "target" until it arrived on task! With just over two hours fuel remaining this was impossible.
To cut a long story short, we landed at Masirah at two o'clock, just as the bar closed!
The airfield perimeter patrol landrover was fired on with automatic weapons several times during the next few weeks, fortunately by a hopeless shot. An intelligence officer told me later that Baghdad Radio had been heard boasting about supplying gallant freedom fighters to oust the British occupiers of Masirah Island.
So we found an Iraqi submarine, but failed Plan A. Big deal:sad:

[Rocket2]

Am I correct in thinking that 115 Sqn at Benson were the last RAF users of the Argosy - I was with them to the end (on the Andovers) - bl&$dy good squadron to be on, equally good crews & boss to work for :{

[Blacksheep]

for a Whistling Wheelbarrow to take off it needed to get to flying speed while still on the runway and then simply retract the undercarriage! Anyone know how true this is?The last time I encountered an Argosy it was operated by an outfit called "SafeAir" and it arrived at Brunei International just before Chinese New Year with a cargo of fresh fruit and vegetables from Singapore. (The Chinese are very particualr about their food being as fresh as possible - and especially so for the reunion dinner). The skipper got down and put a stop to any unloading before stomping off to Air Cargo (what other kind would we have at an airport?) to demand that the entire cargo be weighed.

Talking to the Engineer, it seems that they started their T/O run at Seletar and rolled on and on and on. The aircraft simply refused to fly. They rolled off the end of the runway at well above the calculated take-off speed and just flew straight ahead, a few feet above the water, while they got the gear up. Once the aircraft was "clean" it built up speed with a slow turn to starboard to head down the Straits past Changi, climbing very slowly. Fortunately there were no large ships in the way.

Since the aircraft was clearly too heavy to land safely and was now flying more or less properly, they flew on the Brunei, where the load was found to be more than double the declared weight! The aircraft would have been above the Military Operations weight of 105,000+ pounds quoted earlier. Not bad for a flying wheelbarrow.

[TheChitterneFlyer]

JW411


I'm sorry old son but you are talking through a hole in your head.


How bl***y rude... I simply quoted from the Dowty Handbook and was lead to believe it was true. Having studied the Dart as part of my basic training it was also true to believe what was taught... that it had a fully reverseing prop. Which, it DOES! Not that it was enabled on the Argosy.

That's the last effing post that I make. Good manners cost nothing!

[forget]

... the load was found to be more than double the declared weight!

Does that suggest a pounds/kilos cock up? I hate anything metric.

Chittern. Lighten up. :) I've had much worse thrown at me on Prune and I've never considered being 'offended'.

[JW411]

115 Sqn was never at Benson with Argosys. It was based at Cottesmore and was a Signals Command squadron (or whatever they were called at that time).

After Cottesmore they went to Brize Norton and were based on the south side of the airfield, I think in the old 511 Sqn HQ?

I have fond memories of attending Taff John's farewell thrash there around 1975. (I was on 53 Sqn flying Belfasts by then).

What a wonderful chap Taff was. He never said very much but what he did say was well worth listening to. I can remember Taff coming out to Bahrain as OC Ardet. I took him on a "strip trainer" visiting several bundu locations in Oman.

The flight engineer was not my normal one (Eric Yates) and he obviously was quite nervous about "up country" flying. Taff and the rest of us were having a good day out but the F/E was determined to stop the fun.

At one point we got airborne from Ibri (I think) and the said F/E made the comment that not only was the Doppler u/s but the pressurisation system was now suspect (we hadn't been above 3,000 ft for hours).

The Prince of Darkness took his pipe out of his mouth and said, "Mr S****n, as far as I am concerned, Doppler and pressurisation are luxuries".

That shut him up!

We could even start another thread about Taff John stories.

[JW411]

TheChitterneFlyer:

09 Feb:

"How bl**dy rude. I simply quoted from the Dowty handbook and believed it was true...........

That's the last effing post that I make. Good manners cost nothing!"

Now, I was going to ignore this riposte of yours but I'm afraid that it is you, my friend, who is lacking in good manners.

08 Feb:

"Actually, all of the Dart series engine/propellor (sic) were equipped with Reverse Thrust. It was only the civil variants which were "reverse disabled".

The same engine (actually a Dart 201 is fitted to the Andover C.1".

So, you are telling me, who actually flew the Argosy C.Mk.1 for 10 years (for six of which I was a training captain) that I don't know what I'm talking about just because you have a set of Dowty Rotol notes.

Don't you think that was pretty rude?

Perhaps you can tell all of us out here just how much flight deck experience that you have on the Argosy? How many times did you reverse an Argosy?

I was always taught a good rule in the RAF "Before opening mouth, engage brain".

Going back to your "same engine" (actually a Dart 201) statement that you made:

The Argosy was fitted with a RR Dart Da8 engine (as per the Viscount etc). The military version was up-rated to give 2,470 shp. This was achieved by fitting a "hot" back-end so that we could operate at higher power settings.

(Those of you with good memories will remember 14,200/730 which could be upped to 14,500/785 or even 15,000/750.)

What we really wanted for the military Argosy was the proposed Dart Da10 which would have given us 3,000 shp (and a reversing propeller). I can well remember the articles in the national press at the time that Rolls Royce were asking the government for a £10 million grant so that they could get on with the research and development exercise.

The government of the day refused. However, the Japanese had to come to the rescue. They had designed their YS-11 airliner around the Da10 so they paid for the R & D.

It was then a very simple exercise to develop the Da10 into the Da12 (which was a very different engine from the Da8) for the Andover C.Mk.1 which produced about 3245 shp (and had reversing propellers).

"That's the last effing posting that I make".

Possibly a wise decision.

[Proplinerman]

Thanks for all the replies everybody, tho I haven't had a chance to read them yet, but my post has obviously struck a chord, given the no of responses. Anyway, here are the links to my three other photos of Argosies. Firstly, a civil example, G-APRL, in the colours of its last owner, Elan. This aircraft is preserved at the Midlands Air Museum immediately adjacent to Coventry airport:

JetPhotos.Net Photo » G-APRL (CN: 6652) Private Armstrong Whitworth 650 Argosy by Michael Blank (http://tinyurl.com/4oxhpfj)

Then another civil aircraft, sister ship to G-APRL, G-APRN, photographed thirty-seven years ago, in March 1974, at Castle Donington, in ABC colours:

ABC Argosy at Castle Donington 16-3-74 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://tinyurl.com/27bk5z8)

And finally, another RAF aircraft, XP411/8442M, preserved at Cosford:

ScanImage16 1024 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://tinyurl.com/63yfyvf)


The first RAF machine is obviously in ASC colours, but can anyone tell me please what are the rather handsome colours carried by the Cosford example?

[brakedwell]

Empire Test Pilots School.

[treadigraph]

When I visited Fox Field at Lancaster, California, there was an Argosy preserved there as well.

Doubtless there may also be examples downunda.

What happened to the two OTRAG aircraft? I remember seeing one at East Midlands about 30 years ago.

[JW411]

ETPS:

I'm sorry JJ, are you trying to tell me something?

The last boss of No.105 was Eddie Rigg (who I still visit pretty frequently). Eddie was an ETPS instructor for many years and taught, among others, John Farley of Harrier fame how to be a test pilot.

When 34 Sqn (Beverleys) in Bahrain were axed in the Defence Cuts, they told the Army that they would never be supplied in the field by the Argosy.

And so it was that Eddie and I started off with looking at Bait al Falaj.

Now, as you know, Bait was a fairly interesting airfield to get into with an Argosy.

I spent a lot of my time taking crews around the TOS area and Oman and training at Bait was always a pretty interesting exercise for the Benson crews.

One of my undying memories was checking out the late Archie Coutts who described Bait as a "cheeky little strip, possessed of a certain boldness"!

[brakedwell]

I was answering Propliner's question about the origin of the Cosford Argosy colour scheme, Jock. Eddie Rigg arrived on 105 shortly before I was tourex. I regret never meeting his famous sister, Diana.

[JW411]

Which neatly gets me to my first take-off at MOS standards:

The year was 1965 and Flt Lt Ian Smith and his goverment in Rhodesia had declared UDI (Unilateral Declaration of Independence).

Our Labour Government of the day didn't like this very much but the best they could do was to hit everybody in sight with a wet kipper.

The boss man in Tanzania (Kaunda?) demanded that the British government defend him from the heathens in Rhodesia.

The British Government responded by sending 29 Squadron, which was equipped with Javelin all-weather fighters, from Akrotiri (Cyprus) to Lusaka.

I was at home in my pit at Benson when I was rudely awakened and told to get into a Land Rover and was then taken to Lyneham. I got in a Comet 2 (I remember the MALM was a big jolly lady called Andy Devine) and so we got spewed out on to the tarmac at Akrotiri.

After a couple of hours kip, in the middle of the night, we took over XP443, a Benson Argosy, and set off for Bahrain via Tehran. My log book tells me that it was Novemeber 20th 1965.

The aeroplane was full of "radar cabins". In fact, it was part of a mobile fighter control system (I think there were three other aircraft involved).

Anyway, this was our first real go at MOS (Military Operating Standards). We got airborne in the dark from Akrotiri and set off northwards towards Turkey to go round the old CENTO route to Tehran.

We could not get above 7,000 feet at MOS weights. However, we had a brilliant navigator who was able to use his single Doppler to its best advantage and so it was that, in the best interests of the service, that we went round the CENTO route at night and the highest that we ever got was 11,000 ft between Van and Tatvan.

After refuelling at Tehran, we set sail for Bahrain (via Sharjah).

It was not possible in those days to file a flight plan to Bahrain from Tehran.

The Iranians still claimed ownership of Bahrain. So our designater of OBBI on the flight plan was immediately rejected (I thik they called it OIII - but I can't remember) so we had to file for OMSJ (Sharjah) and then divert to Bahrain as soon as we crossed the FIR.

Anyway, we duly arrived in Bahrain with the air defence radar and a 105 Squadron crew from Aden took over the aircraft and took this vital piece of Labour Government policy down to Zambia.

I have always felt grateful to Harold Wilson and his government ever since for introducing me to the world of useless politics. The act of sending a squadron of Javelins and a mobile defence radar to Zambia achieved the square root of FA.

What made it even more interesting was that my co-pliot's father was the deputy boss of the Rhodesian Air Force. The whole exercise was a nonsense.

Just to finish off this particular rant; a year or so later and I am now a training captain with 105 Sqn in Aden and I was night flying with two or three co-pilots who had to do so many training exercise every month.

Night flying in Aden in an Argosy was purgatory. We couldn't pressurise when we were in the circuit (we might have to get out quickly) so it was a very wet and sticky business (temperature at night was an average of 100 with a relative humidity of 98%).

This particular night, I had Pash Broughton as my navigator. Suddenly, there was a "Mayday" call from a 29 Sqn Javelin (we obviously didn't know that at the time).

He was coming up from Africa at night and all he had (apart from his navigator) was a single ADF which was broken. He was desperately short of fuel and had already shut down one engine. He could see in the dark the east coast of the Red Sea but he didn't know which way to turn when he got there.

I wasn't really sure how I could contribute to this drama but Pash in the back came up trumps.

There was a single particularly active thunderstorm up country somewhere near Dhala. Pash had it plotted. "Ask him if he can see the thunderstorm" said Pash. "If it is on his left, then he needs to turn left, if it is on his right, then he needs to turn right".

This is what is called professionalism. The Javelin landed on Runway 08 at Khormaksar (after ATC had persuaded him that the lights of Mallah Strait was not the runway) with about 18 gallons of fuel left.

I always reckoned that Pash should have got some sort of recognition for his help. He is now, by the way, one of the big brains in the Royal Institute of Navigation).

I just wish I had read the Dowty Rotol manual.

[JW411]

Brakedwell:

Actually John, you are a victim of an urban myth. Dianna Rigg is the sister of Hugh Rigg (who was also a product of ETPS) but she was not Eddie's sister.

[brakedwell]

A lot of us got that one wrong then, but I do know that Julie Andrews' brother John Wells was a co-pilot on 84 sqn Beverleys when I was stationed In Bahrain.

[TheChitterneFlyer]

JW411


So, you are telling me, who actually flew the Argosy C.Mk.1 for 10 years (for six of which I was a training captain) that I don't know what I'm talking about just because you have a set of Dowty Rotol notes.




I don't doubt your previous experience; just don't "screw-me-over" for what I had learned from the www... or any "polite" iterjection from those who "knew better"... NO, I'm not "telling you better"... I accept any information that comes from those who have had (much) previous experience... Jeez!

PPrune at its best!

The "original Dart engine/propellor configuration" was intended to provide for "reverse thrust"... OK, the Argosy wasn't provided-for such a configuration, and, OK, you couldn't "power back" from any given cul-de-sac. Fine. That was the original specification... is that OK with you Mr Training Captain?

[Brian 48nav]

34 Sqn was at Seletar - I expect you meant 30.

These tiffs people are having confirms what many of my pilot mates reply when asked if they use Prune - 'NO way -Too much invective'!

There was a post asking about NVGs, I asked No1 son,ex ETPS Principal Tutor and somewhat of an expert on the subject,to respond and he said ' No,I can't stand the misery on the site'.

[Blacksheep]

Does that suggest a pounds/kilos cock up?No, it was a typical fiddle by the shipping agents in Singapore to understate the weights and get the underpaid clerk in the cargo centre to stick his foot under the weighing platform. Lots of mutual back-scratching, with probably a brown envelope involved at some point. You have to have been there to see how casual such things were in 1982.

Just like Mrs BS's 60 kg suitcase. :suspect:

[JW411]

Brian 48nav:

You are of course quite right - finger trouble on my part. 30 Sqn was indeed based at Muharraq and 34 in Seletar. Sorry.

[jindabyne]

Julie Andrews' brother John Wells

Being really pedantic, he is her stepbrother - sorry b'dwell!

[JW411]

We always seemed to have a "hangar queen" in Aden. It was usually up on jacks in the corner and robbed for spares. Eventually the time would come to fly it back to UK for heavy maintenance so just about enough bits would be put back on again for the ferry flight.

One such ferry flight showed how resilient the Dart engine was. (I think the captain was Ted D). They got as far as Sharjah on the first day. Now not every station had a stock of Dart engine oil so the flight engineers normally took enough tins of the stuff to get them to the other end.

On arrival at Sharjah, the chiefie said that they might not have any oil but he would have a look. The F/E told him to use some of his stock if it proved necessary. Next morning, the F/E's stock of oil was still intact and the F700 showed that all engines had been topped-up so it was assumed that the ground crew had found some after all.

They then got airborne and headed north across the mountains of Iran. On arrival at Tehran, the F/E went up his ladder to check the engine oil levels. When he took the first oil cap off, a black foaming volcano of oil came gushing out. This phenomenon was repeated three more times.

Further investigation revealed that although his stock of engine oil was still intact, his supply of Racasan (toilet fluid) had been considerably depleted! All four engines now contained Racasan.

The Rolls Royce man in Bahrain (Kenny Rogers - I think) and a team were flown to Tehran. All four engines were purged a couple of times and all filters etc were changed. After an engine run it was decided that absolutely no damage had been caused and the ferry flight to UK was completed without further incident.

[zetec2]

JW411,

Seems an odd way to ferry to the UK, we used to go
K'Sar
Wadi Halfa (or sometimes Khartoum or Addis Abbaba if diplomatic stuff for delivery)
El Adem
Luqa
Istres
Benson
& reverse after servicings at least up to the end of 1964 when they were then heavy serviced either at K'Sar or Bahrein.

Also the Dart used to run on OX38 oil, a standard gas turbine oil available everywhere & used by 99% of military RR engines ?, puzzled,

Not trying to be pendantic but just curious how things may have changed over the years of Argosy ops, Regards, PH.

[brakedwell]

The last Aden-UK ferry I did in July 1966, routed via Jeddah, El Adem, Luqa (n/s), Benson. Mrs brakedwell & small son were on board, plus 2 indulgence WRAFs and 4 cars. The WRAFs reckoned the Peugeot 404 had the best sound insulation.

[JW411]

zetec 2:

Well, the other way that we used to go was via Bahrain then over Kuwait, south of Baghdad, south of Damascus and then over Lebanon to Akrotiri.

I did that route several times but the biggest problem was that of diplomatic clearance. It went something like this; the Iraqi clearance was valid for four days or so but you had to make the entry and exit points plus or minus 2 hours.

The Syrian clearance was for a 48 hour period and the Lebanese clearance was for 24 hours only.

So if you took more than a 2 hour delay from Bahrain, then you couldn't meet the Iraqi requirement and so had to delay for 24 hours which then meant that the Lebanese clearance had expired and had to be applied for again by which time the Syrian clearance had expired and so it went on and on!

I have also gone via Khartoum and round Nasser's Corner to El Adem. I can't remember off the top of my head why we stopped going that way. By the way, Wadi Halfa disappeared under water when the Aswan High Dam came into use.

I suppose that although the CENTO route was a long way round, it was always open and no clearances were required.

I'm sure you are right about OX38 oil but not all stations always had it in stock. A bit like beer really, Salalah ran out of beer one weekend and I had to do an emergency resupply on the Sunday morning from Bahrain. It was of such importance that we even had Saudi overflight clearanc so didn't have to go round Fahud.

We had 4 pallets loaded with Amstel and 4 pallets loaded with Carlsberg. The navigator worked out that if we went down in the Empty Quarter, we would not survive. It went something like this, first day you had to drink 8 beers to meet your fluid requirement. Now it takes a pint of water to process an ounce of alcohol so next day you had to drink 20 beers and so it was that you died on the fourth day with a smile on your face!

[avionic type]

Reading all the threads my mind goes back to those heady days [late 60s 70s]parked outside the frieght sheds in Heathrow central removing a big oval panel on top of the wing and clambering inside the wing to change the [if my memory is correct ] voltage control box which in that confind space seemed to weigh a ton and the struggle to get out again, it always seemed to be raining and as we were devoid of wet weather gear getting very wet . .after looking in the mirror I now know I'd never make it. thinks did the RAF ones have landing /taxi lights ?2 landings and our filaments were shaken to bits we had plenty of spares but the RAF?

[zetec2]

JW411.

Thanks for the info re routing, how things change, the comment about Wadi Halfa being underwater causes some amusement, hated the place due to having to lug fuel hoses, use a "donkey engine" to pump fuel, real self help service station, most unsociable place this side of Hades !, come to think of it - it used to be as hot & uncomfortable as Hades.

Avionics Guy:
Landing /taxi lamps , if remember correctly they were on the main undercarriage legs just above the refuelling points & also outboard near the wing tips on the mainplanes.

PH.

[zetec2]

Sorry Aviation Type, got you wrong ! called you "Guy",

Does any one have an answer as to why the civil variant had huge wing fences outboard of the 1 & 4 engines whereas the military variant didn't ?, didn't the civil variant drive have enough aileron control, was that the reason ?.
Rgds, PH.

[Chris Royle]

Treadigraph,
Thanks for the book reference.
I have ordered via that well known South American river!

[parabellum]

The act of sending a squadron of Javelins and a mobile defence radar to Zambia achieved the square root of FA.


The situation wasn't helped when some of the pilots crossed the border into Rhodesia, had a few beers and then sent Harold a postcard with a Rhodesian postmark! No more cross border piss ups!

I used to fly with one of the ex Javelin pilots so I believe this to be a true story.

[brakedwell]

Most of the aircrew on Khormaksar based squadrons which would have been involved were assembled in a hangar and asked if they were prepared to take action against Ian Smith's illegal regime. The answer was a unanimous no. I seem to remember a number of Canberra crews from Cyprus were also present. 105 Argosies would have been used to drop paras to secure strategic rail and road points, then resupply them. In the event my contribution to the cock-up was to fly two large generators, delivered by Ace Freighters, from Francistown in Bechuanaland to Lusaka to power Harold Wilson's folly- a propoganda radio station that was beamed at Rhodesia.

[goudie]

The act of sending a squadron of Javelins

Didn't a certain Defence Minister (Denis Healy) make a statement in 'The House' that a squadron of Javelins had, that very morning, taken off from HMS Illustrious, or some such Carrier?

[henry crun]

That must have sent a thrill through the aircrew ranks of 29 when they found out they were going to do that !

[JW411]

Speedbird 48:

Your story about the difficulties you encountered loading a Bristol Hercules on to an Argosy has had me puzzled for several days.

I took a Bristol Centaurus engine from Bahrain to Jeddah on 08 November 1967in XP412 to rescue Dick Barton and crew who had lobbed into Jeddah while ferrying an 84 Squadron Beverley back to UK. Perhaps the loaders in Bahrain were better at it than your lot for the Centaurus was a much bigger engine.

When we got to Jeddah, we were a bit surprised to see that the Beverley was covered in graffiti. The aircraft was "U" - Uniform and this had been modified to "U/K OR BUST". There were several other symbols and messages about the fuselage. The old girl was headed for scrapping at Bicester and was only planned to land at RAF airfields en route so the lads in Khormaksar had gone mad with the paint brush.

It certainly raised a few eyebrows in Jeddah and the Air Attache wanted it out of there pronto.

[avionic type]

Yes ZTECH2 those were the darling lamps on the drag stay the only redeeming thing about the blasted things were they could be changed without the use of steps about the only thing that could .A abiding memory was for a rapid turn round the plane was unloaded and loaded at the same time the last pallet was unloaded and the truck driven away at the rear the next cargo pallet was loaded at the front with a mighty heave it shot down the back straight out of the rear the stops were still down [red faces all round,hysterics from engineering]:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[JW411]

Of course, that was the daftest thing about the military Argosy (there were others) and I mean the decision to rivet up the opening front of the fuselage. This used to cause real hassle when flying PCF (Passenger cum Freight) flights. The rules were (quite rightly) that freight had to travel in front with the passengers behind.

This meant that the freight had to be loaded and then the passenger seats installed behind the feight. I can remember, for example, arriving in Luqa with an Avon engine for a u/s Canberra. So all the passenger seats had to come out, the Avon extracted, and then the passenger seats re-installed.

There was a company in the USA called Riddle and they bought half a dozen of the first civilian Argosys. They had a US military contract under the Logair scheme which meant that cargo was moved around USAF bases (mainly on the east coast) on a very strict schedule with huge penalties for not being on time.

The way it worked was this; the outbound load of eight pallets was loaded on to a special truck equipped with a hydraulic ram. The Argosy arrived and the front and the back of the fuselage was opened up. Departing load was positioned at the rear. An empty truck was postioned at the front. Pallet locks were undone and rear truck pushed eight pallets in the back and the existing eight pallets exited the front on to the empty truck.

This sort of concept was unheard of in mediaeval Europe at the time. Riddle were achieving 8 minute turnrounds (eat your heart out Michael O'Leary).

So what did our lords and masters do? They promptly riveted up the front of the fuselage!

[RedhillPhil]

Didn't a certain Defence Minister (Denis Healy) make a statement in 'The House' that a squadron of Javelins had, that very morning, taken off from HMS Illustrious, or some such Carrier?

I believe it was "Eagle" that he quoted.

[Speedbird48]

Hi JW411,

The engine was on a stand and had cowlings as well. The engine we blew in Guterslow had blown a hole in the original cowls.

But, we tried to load it accessory end first, and the stand hit the roof in the spar area. Then we turned it around and by removing cowlings and part of the ignition harness it would "just" fit under the spar. We had also removed the wheels from the stand.

I know nothing much about the Whistling Tit, but the loadie was makiing a big issue of the CofG. Maybe he was in error?? The rest of the thing was empty so we could have found some sandbags to balance the thing I suppose.

Speedbird48

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

Chris, I regret to tell you that you will wait till the cows come home for that book. I ordered a copy months ago, on Treadders' recommendation, and the said Amazon have stopped bothering to apologise for non-delivery! They haven't taken my money, to be fair to them.

This is a pity because the late Ken Fitzroy was instrumental in getting me my first commercial flying job.

I believe the Argosy was known as 'Noddy' in BEA because it had a perceptible flight-deck shimmy in the cruise. It was something to do with that cargo floor, I think.

[Rory57]

Chris / George,
I ordered Ken Fitzroy's book from Amazon on Thursday evening and received my copy this morning, from the publisher.

[JW411]

Speedbird 48:

Thanks for that; the loadmaster that day couldn't have been very bright. (Most of them were great guys). I'm sure the problem could have been easily sorted by putting some ballast in the front.

I can remember taking a large triangular jack to Nairobi for a Shackleton which had to have a wheel change. Those of you familiar with the Argosy will remember that we carried two ramps which were attached to the bottom clamshell door for loading and unloading.

The unloading of the jack seemed to be taking an age so I went back to look. To my horror, our man had one leg on each ramp and the third leg supported by a plank of wood hovering in space between the two ramps with each end of the plank on top of an inverted bit of roller-conveyor. The plank was bowing ominously and looked set to snap. The large jack falling between the two ramps would have caused unthinkable damage.

"Why are you doing it this way", said I. "It's the only way to do it" said he "the jack has three legs and we only have two ramps".

"So why don't you turn the jack round a bit and so that two legs can go down one ramp and the third leg goes down the other", said I.

The silence was deafening!

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

Thanks Rory, it would appear that the renewed interest has caused the publishers to do a small run, and I've bagged the last one!

:ok:

[Chris Royle]

My copy arrived this morning :D

[treadigraph]

Chaps, very glad you have managed to get a copy! Having originally transcribed some of the chapters for "Fighter Log", I had a hard time on one occasion convincing Ken over the phone that it was anything but dry. One of nature's Gentlemen! And, yes, I think Argosy = Noddy in the book!

[JW411]

treadigraph:

You asked earlier on about Otrag Range Services; the idea was to construct a rocket launching site in Zaire. I think it was a German (or an Austrian) company.

They bought two ex RAF Argosys:

XP446 became 9Q-COE and XR136 became 9Q-COA.

One of my good friends went to work for them. He did a trip from Lubumbashi to their up-country strip in 9Q-COE on 01.06.79. Unfortunately, they made a bit of a "firm" arrival. After unloading, they had a look around the aircraft and didn't see any obvious damage so they flew back to Lubumbashi. A closer inspection revealed wrinkles in the booms so the aircraft never flew again.

My South African friend (Brian S.) spotted the remains at Lubumbashi some years ago and sent me a few photographs. There was not a hell of a lot of it left.

The other one was broken up at East Midlands in 1981.

Going back to Noddy; if you really wanted to frighten yourself, a really good wheeze was to put the periscopic sextant up and look backwards. Not only did the booms flex, so did the tailplane and the fins nodded! I always assumed that it was all meant to do that.

You are right; Ken is sadly missed. I knew him through 53 Sqn and RAFGSA gliding. He was indeed a gent and his book is far from boring.

By the way, there is a lot of information to be found on:

ARDET Reunion Website (http://www.argosy.org.uk/)

[Krystal n chips]

This little video may be of interest...a bit of nostalgia concerning SAFEAir and their operation of the type....watch out for the "oops !"...arrival towards the end..;)....some nice benign flying shots however which may bring back a few memories...it's a bit of a "yuk" start to the video though so you have been warned...

Armstrong-Whitworth AW650 Argosy - UK (http://www.aviation-history.com/armstrong-whitworth/aw650-a.htm)

[JW411]

Krystal n chips:

Many thanks for that.

Oh Happy Daze!

[treadigraph]

Thanks for that JW411, I think it was probably around Easter '81 that I was there - I recall it being painted mostly red.

[brakedwell]

The extreme winter of 1962-63 played havoc at Benson. Taxiways and runways were closed by packed snow and ice until March 63. The two week flying phase of my course was completed in Malta and Idris. At that time the flying controls were prone to freezing up, so we were banned from flying in cloud above the freezing level, hence the routing via Gibraltar. YouTube - Chap 7 Argosy Course 1962 3 Large (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v87Ptgeuh7g)

[mally35]

Hi Brakedwell. Just looked in my log book to find that I was also on that jolly too. We flew from Odiham as Benson hadn't been deiced in time. Enjoyed the video.
I was on XN 855.

[brakedwell]

mally35
Just looked at my logbook. My first dual flight at Malta was on Feb 26 and I operated 848 back to Benson via Gib on 22/23 March 1963. The 55h.30m course was longer than I remembered.

[ICM]

Belatedly catching up on this thread - my first Nav tour was on 105 (year unaccompanied) then 267. (For JW411: I see that we first crewed together on 11 Dec 66, a Bahrain Overflight, which I think was a Route Check all concerned expected would raise me from my ex-OCU D to C Cat, but didn't! I fear that my glazed response to your "Reaction to an overspeeding prop?" question didn't help.)

I can add a bit to previous posts. November 66 - my first trip, screened of course, down to Matsapa for the regular resupply run to Francistown, where the anti-UDI radio mentioned earlier had been established. Landing back at Matsapa, the aircraft lurched to one side, was corrected, and we taxied in to find both tyres on one side burst, and severe scorches on the other. No doubt a bit of brake on touchdown? So, end of resupply runs till new tyres could arrive and Dip Clear times meant that was at least a week away. The copilot and I blagged a flight to Jo'burg on one of the Aero Commander Air Taxi aircraft that flew into Matsapa; quick night there then on by train to Pretoria, where we presented ourselves, all unbidden, at the Air Adviser's door. Fortunately, he and his wife were the spirit of hospitality and, next day, he flew us back to Matsapa on the ex-Queen's Flight Heron (still bright red) that was his personal aircraft - so we know that was a time ago now!

Another Argosy duly arrived with tyres and wheel-changing kit - and I only mention that as I understand that, on a previous occasion, a flight laid on to bring a replacement windscreen from Khormaksar had arrived without it! Anyway, with the aircraft, came a signal from HQ MEAF saying get both aircraft serviceable and await instructions. These were not long in coming: two further aircraft were on their way and all four would be used to evacuate the Army battalion based in Swaziland (1st Royal Irish Fusiliers) to Durban, where they would embark on HMS "Fearless" for transit to Aden, and recovery from there to the UK. Sanctions were about to be imposed on Rhodesia by HMG; the reaction of South Africa and Portugal, still the colonial power in Mozambique, was uncertain; and it was clearly felt that the British battalion could become something of a hostage if things went badly. Our CO, Eddie Rigg, came down to be Det Cdr and, still with my D Cat, I was made Ops Officer and general Army Liaison for Op LOPEN that followed. So, the planned 6 or so-day trip extended over nearly 4 weeks before my return to base.

The routing on Ferry flights back to the UK changed, I think permanently, in early Feb 67. I was scheduled for one, overflying Egypt as normal, when clearance for any such overflights by British military aircraft was withdrawn. Egypt was almost certainly instigating/supporting much of the difficulties in South Yemen at the time, and I guess the diplomatic atmosphere had frozen somewhat. We then had to replan via the CENTO route, await the requisite DipClears; and on 15 Feb we set off for Sharjah/Teheran/ Diyarbakir/ Akrotiri/Luqa/Benson. And variations on that were used for the remaining few months or so of 105's time at Khormaksar, before the earlier than planned move to Muharraq from July 67.

Possibly enough for now - maybe more later - but I have to say that I found the Argosy an excellent aircraft on which to build experience, and the airdrop time I put in on it put me nicely in the running for an exchange tour on the C-141A a little later on.

[Stationair8]

Thanks for the you-tube footage.

On the original footage that I have seen shows the SAFE Argosy departing into a very low cloud base.

[Stationair8]

What RAF Squadrons operated the Argosy?

What civilian operators used the Argosy in the USA an Canada?

[mally35]

RAF squadrons that used the Argosy were 114 115 215 267 70 and 105.
Not sure on the civie side but certainly BEA did. Quite a few of the RAF ones were used civilian wise after 'demob'. Safeair in NZ operated them but they were not ex military.Zantop was an American user as was Riddle.

[ICM]

You'll find all you need on Argosy operators, RAF and civil, via this link. (Use the Links button for detail on civil use):

ARDET Reunion Website (http://www.argosy.org.uk/)

[zetec2]

Further to my earlier Argosy (bless it !) posts, I have a copy of the VHS video:
"Forty Years of Bristol & Argosy Freighters with Safe Air"
Which has been in my collection (smoke & pet free home , never played) for disposal for a modest sum plus postage anybody interested please send me a message, hope this is allowed & won't get moderator removed.

Also is the Argosy at Cosford really XP411 or another airframe made from bits ? seem to remember that during the early period a couple of airframes (think at Biteswell) were dismantled to carry out fatigue, corrosion checks before returning to service, think XN847 & 849 might have been involved or other early serialed number airframes, 847 & 849 were used as the two trial aircraft at Benson prior to 105 going to K'Sar, anybody help ?. Rgds PH.

[stackedup]

Six pages and no mention of XP444 ! There has got to be some good stories from this one !http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

[JW411]

I've been off the air for a few days.

Brakedwell:

Many thanks JJ for your video. I was Orderly Officer at Benson on Christmas Eve when it started to snow and the airfield was still shut two months later due to some spectacularly stupid decisions made at high level.

Stackedup:

I'm afraid you have lost me. We had XP444 on 267 Squadron and I first flew it on 17 December 1962 with Wg Cdr Alec Steedman who was O.C. 267 Sqn.

ICM:

Ah!!!!!! The dreaded Bahrain Overflight!!!!!!

Or, what was more commonly known as the "Marie Celeste".

We used to get airborne from Khormaksar, not long before sunset, and set off down the ADR (Advisory Route for the youngsters among you) for about 100 miles to position LAVA and then set off in a north-easterly direction across the mountains and the Wadi Hadraumat and so into the Rub al Khali (The Empty Quarter) for about four hours eventually emerging with the aid of a single Doppler and a trusty navigator somewhere round about Tarif heading for Doha for Bahrain. Inshallah.

We then did a one and a half hour turnaround and repeated the exercise southbound. The sun used to come up around LAVA if all had gone well and the new day was celebrated in Neddy's Bar.

I have looked in my logbook and I see it was XP411 (now at Cosford) and I have Big Andy as the nav northbound and you as the nav southbound so I guess it was a route check for you guys.

I don't actually remember the "prop overspeed" scenario, but the Trapper used to ask us to have a practice emergency.

The funniest one that I ever got involved in was with 53 Sqn on the Belfast.

[brakedwell]

JW411
During my time on 105 the direct (5 hr) Khormaksar - Muharraq passenger schedule that overflew Saudi Arabia was an all day affair. The extended turnaround allowed enough time to grab a taxi to the Manama fish Market and buy ten pounds of big juicy prawns. As they were uncooked Paddy Whelan, my loadmaster, boiled them all in the hot cup on the way home, otherwise they would have gone off! The smell in the cabin was most embarrassing!

I had a strange experience on one return flight. It was dark when we left Bahrain passing over Doha in the climb to flight level 200. The sky was clear and the stars were twinkling brightly. At around FL150 we ran into severe clear air turbulence, it only lasted a few minutes, but was very choppy. Once we levelled off the navigator set up his sextant to take a TOC fix.
"I can't see any stars," he exclaimed.
"They were up there a few minutes ago," I responded, leaning closer to the windscreen. Sure enough the sky was pitch black, while down below a multitude of lights stretched along the Qatar peninsular as far as the eye could see. The pattern of lights was vaguely familiar, much like the stars. Surreptitiously, I lifted my cigarette packet, which was lying on my cup holder, and dropped it to confirm we were the right way up!
A few minutes later we ran into another short spell of turbulence. At the same time the galaxy of lights sitting on the desert slowly rose to their rightful place in the sky.
I visited the Met Office at Khormaksar the following day and described the experience. Apparently, warm air from the Saudi desert funnels down the Qatar Peninsular, lying above the cooler gulf air and causing a powerful inversions. The resulting refraction would explain the star phenomenon.

[Viscount812]

What a brilliant thread. I well remember the Argosy that went in at Stansted in 1967 as at that time I lived locally. After school I would cycle to the airport and meet up with friends to watch the crew training circuits taking place - Eagle Britannias, BOAC VC10s and 707s, sometimes a BEA Vanguard, and even the infrequent scheduled services (most of which were Channel Airways). Stansted was a very different, dare I say nicer, place then - where you could spend a very pleasant sunny evening on the grass at the end of the runway without anyone disturbing you.

[stackedup]

JW 411

I was referring to when XP444 was the personal a/c of JEJ C in C MEAF . I saw inside once when it was u/s at Luqa and you would not know it was an aircraft ! Bit like TQF

[brakedwell]

Strange, I flew Johnnie Johnson to Nairobi and Addis Ababa a couple of times. There was no dedicated VIP Argosy in Aden and the VIP fit could be described as comfortable rather than luxurious.

[ICM]

"....we left Bahrain passing over Doha in the climb to flight level 200..." Would that had been possible! A small typo, perhaps? I can't even recall getting to FL 200 with a load anywhere over Europe and, indeed, I've always felt that it was the need to use the Argosy as a baby Britannia in the Middle East (and I dare say, the Far East) that wrecked its reputation. Around 1973-74, when I found myself involved in tasking the AT force, it would have been ideal for many of the Army's op BANNER moves in/out of Aldergrove, but by then it was too late.

As for 444, Mike Seller once gave me a quick tour of CinC NEAF's aircraft at Akrotiri, and it looked like no other in the force. A real custom job and very smooth, indeed!

Edit: NEAF, not MEAF! And I think there's a picture of Mike and crew in front of the aircraft on the ARDET website.

[alisoncc]

Brakedwell wrote:
Surreptitiously, I lifted my cigarette packet, which was lying on my cup holder, and dropped it to confirm we were the right way up!

'Scuse me for butting in, having had no contact with argies, of the whistling w or t varieties, but I did find the above comment incredibly funny. Tell me what would you have done if the cigarette packet had fallen the other way? :ok:

[brakedwell]

"....we left Bahrain passing over Doha in the climb to flight level 200..." Would that had been possible! A small typo, perhaps? I can't even recall getting to FL 200 with a load anywhere over Europe and, indeed, I've always felt that it was the need to use the Argosy as a baby Britannia in the Middle East (and I dare say, the Far East) that wrecked its reputation.

Most of the direct Khormaksar - Bahrain flights only carried passengers. The return flights were often less than half full. FL 200 was attainable, especially during the winter months.

'Scuse me for butting in, having had no contact with argies, of the whistling w or t varieties, but I did find the above comment incredibly funny. Tell me what would you have done if the cigarette packet had fallen the other way?

Told Paddy to delay boiling the prawns :p

I was referring to when XP444 was the personal a/c of JEJ C in C MEAF . I saw inside once when it was u/s at Luqa and you would not know it was an aircraft ! Bit like TQF

Are your sure 444 wasn't the C in C Near East Air Force's aircraft. It doesn't appear in my log book during my time on 105 and 267.

[Fareastdriver]

I went to Rhodesia in 1965 on DomCol leave. This was two months leave given to personnel who had signed on to the RAF overseas. On completion of this I was put on Johny Johnson's Argosy with the plan to fly from Salisbury to Khormaksa and then be flown back to the UK.

We cut the corner a bit fine on the taxi out so a main undercarriage leg had an expedition across the grass. When we arrived at Nairobi I was offloaded and had to spend three days at Eastleigh until a BCal Brittania took me home.

Somebody told me I was offloaded to make way for a load of topsoil.

[brakedwell]

Somebody told me I was offloaded to make way for a load of topsoil.

Topsoil always went by Beverley, as did Johnnie's boat!

[JW411]

Well, I have just done a trawl through my logbooks for my time on 105 Sqn (1966 - 1968) and I can see no sign of XP444.

The Argosy website gives XP444 as:

28.11.62 Delivered to 267 Sqn at Benson.
01.07.63 To 215 Sqn in Changi.
15.01.68 To 70 Sqn in Akrotiri (NEAF) as a VIP aircraft.
03.11.75 Flown into Halton and scrapped in 1988.

For the record, the 105 Sqn Argosys during my time were:

XN819, XN820, XN849, XN852
XP408, XP409, XP410, XP411, XP412
XP437, XP438, XP439, XP440
XR109

I have a vague memory of XP437 carrying JEJ's pennant at one point but that is all it is - a vague memory.

I also remember the topsoil and manure as being carried by Beverley.

[zetec2]

Topsoil, plants & other objects for JJ's garden were being hauled by Argosy from Nairobi back to K'Sar in 1963 & onwards(shortly after his arrival) , as well as a large standing order with Kenya Cold, he always had a car & driver waiting for our return to drive it down to Steamer Point to the residence.

105 was often used as his taxi service & as other posts we had in the role equipment hangar a special VIP fit which could be loaded in about 30 minutes from the call, often took longer to de-role & prep the aircraft though, oh happy days !.

No takers for my Argosy video then ?. regards Paul H.

[thing]

I can remember them as ILS checkers back around the mid 70's when I was at Coningsby. They used to drop a guy off with a complicated looking thing and they used to do runs while he calibrated things that needed calibrating. Was it 115 Sqdn? I think that was their last role in the RAF.

[JW411]

I remember being told a great story about JEJ going to Masirah for a week's fishing. Every day he hi-jacked the launch and set about doing some serious fishing and making a general nuisance of himself about the place.

The station master was a lowly Flt Lt and a bit powerless to do much about the situation. At the very least he felt that the great man should contribute towards the cost of using the launch but he knew that the bill would simply be buried beneath the sand and the rocks of Steamer Point.

So, he sent the bill direct to Ministry of Defence for onward transmission and settlement by JEJ.

What a clever chap he was!

[brakedwell]

JW411
I think you will find the bill was for the cost of the Beverley that flew his boat to Masirah. I wonder what happened to the David Shepherd paintings belonging to the Officers Mess in Khormaksar which he took away to be cleaned.

[JW411]

So the bill was for the cost of flying his boat to Masirah in a Beverley? That's even better!

By the way, you may remember that the 114 Sqn aircraft had the snake's head in a circle painted on the fin above the serial number. 267 Sqn aircraft had the "Peggy".

Do you have any photographs of 105 Sqn aircraft with the Battleaxe so mounted? I have one small photograph of XP408 with the axe in a circle on the fin but it is the only one that I can find and I have to use Photoshop to see the badge properly.

I had lunch with Eddie Rigg on Wednesday and the subject of the David Shepherd paintings came up over a beer. I seem to remember that we had an extraordinary mess meeting to insist upon their return. I can't remember where they finally ended up.

[brakedwell]

It would be interesting to know how much it did cost him. When I collected a Twin Pioneer from the MU in Aden the flying time to Masirah was 8.50. It must have taken a Beverley about seven hours. Times that by two :eek::eek:

[ICM]

JW411: I have a picture of the 105 badge on 439 - not perfect but possibly better than the one you mention. I'll do a scan tomorrow and email it to you. And I don't seem to recall there being any Shepherd paintings in the Mess in that final year at K'sar - possibly too much time spent outside in the Jungle Bar?

[brakedwell]

And I don't seem to recall there being any Shepherd paintings in the Mess in that final year at K'sar - possibly too much time spent outside in the Jungle Bar?

I seem to remember JEJ took them away to be "cleaned" shortly before I was tourex in Aug 1966. (While I was in the Jungle Bar?)

[tlightb]

There is a Shepherd in the RAF Club of a Twin Pin taking off with a rhino approaching. I seem to remember this being in the Sqn Cdr's office at 21 Sqn, Khormaksar at the withdrawal. Perhaps that was a safer location for it!

[JW411]

Well, none of us are getting any younger but I had it in my mind that one of the David Shephard paintings was the famous one of the 84 Sqn Beverley landing at Dhala with all the sand coming up as it went into reverse.

I keep thinking of Eastleigh, Nairobi for the other one. Was it of Venoms?

No doubt all of these treasures and their disposal were very well documented in properly authorised records and their current location should easily be given under the Freedom of Information Act.

I wish you luck.

I have tried for years, unsuccessfully, to find the 267 Squadron scrapbook that I made when I was the squadron historian and I would simply love to know where the 53 Squadron mess silver is?

To obfuscate:

To darken, obscure, stupefy or bewilder.

[JW411]

ICM:

I've just checked my emails. Many thanks for the photograph of the Battleaxe on the tail of XP439. (I now know that I have not quite lost my marbles).

I had, however, completely forgotten that the enclosing circle had an indent at the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock positions enclosing the number "105".

[brakedwell]

This one Jock?

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/sedgwickjames/General%20Pics/davidshepherd-aden.jpg

I think the original of this painting of Slave Island, Aden, was hanging in the mess.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/sedgwickjames/General%20Pics/stacks_image_9344_1.png

[Capot]

The Beverley painting reminds me of a Beverley landing at Beihan, somewhere aroud 1962. We were there by accident, having just finished loosing off 25pdr shells into the Yemen from a nearby beauty spot.

The trip was to celebrate the completion of an airstrip lovingly constructed by a small crew from the 5004th Airfield Construction Squadron RAF, at least I think that's what it was called. For about 2 years an elderly Flt Lt had master-ninded the job, which involved hacking out large pieces of rock, crushing them, spreading the material, rolling it, sealing it with tarmac etc.

A Beaver appeared and landed, with all sorts of brass from Aden. Then a Beverley hove majestically into view, circled once and carried out a stately approach and perfect touchdown. As it rolled out, waves developed in a V-pattern in the tarmac along the length of the nice new strip, leaving a pleasing corrugated appearance.

The C-in-C turned to the Flt Lt and remarked that his future for another 2 years was certain. They then climbed back into the Beaver, which departed from a convenient smooth piece of ground.

That evening, the Flt Lt went doo-lally, and threatened us all with a .303 rifle, which was fully loaded, when the generator broke down during a film he liked. "You barstewards", he yelled, pulling at the trigger with the safety catch still on, "You did it on purpose". He was shipped out next day by 3-tonner, securely fastened down.

And the crew went back to work. I've no idea what happened to the Beverley.

[JW411]

No, not Beihan but Dhala. I had it in my mind that the Beverley was landing left to right with rather more sand but I may well be wrong.

Talking of Dhala; as you are well aware, Dhala was a one-way strip. The Beverleys had to land towards the mountain and take-off away from it.

We simply could not hack Dhala with an Argosy because of the shortness of the strip, the fact that it was about 3,500 ft amsl and that the temperature was ISA+30. So, we used to supply-drop instead, usually with 1-ton containers.

Those of you in the know will remember that our good friend Gamil Abdul Nasser, who had completely forgiven us for interfering in the Suez campaign, thought that he should move into the Old Yemen and cause us all a great deal of grief.

And so it was that they started to build a concrete blockhouse just over the border north of Dhala. In this blockhouse was mounted a Russian 155 mm howitzer. So, every now and then, they lobbed a shell on to the camp at Dhala and people started to suffer some discomfort and the odd person got killed.

The local Army commander, not unreasonably, asked that the RAF deal with the problem. Well, we had a Labour Government at the time and they were in their tree-hugging mode and were only prepared to allow "minimum force" - whatever that means.

In the initial phase, the Governor authorised the Hunter Squadrons (8 and 43) to attack the blockhouse with rockets. Well, this was about as effective as picking your nose with boxing gloves. Unless you were lucky enough to put a rocket through the letter box in the three foot thick bunker, forget it.

After a few more casualties, No. 37 (Bomber) Squadron were finally invited to sort the problem out with one of their Shackleton MR.2 aircraft loaded with 1,000 lb bombs.

There was a bit of a raffle to determine just who was going to do the business and my "nextdoor neighbour but one" was selected out of a cast of thousands.

Off they went to Dhala loaded with 1,000 lb bombs. I believe they missed with the first two but then consigned the blockhouse and its contents to the land of the 72 virgins.

Feeling quite pleased with themselves, they set off back to Khormaksar at low level. In the Wadi Habilayn, they flew past a bloke on a donkey. Bloke on donkey had a rifle just like everyone else in that part of the world.

Sgt Signaller in the port beam called captain to say that man with donkey had hit the Shackleton with a bullet and that there was an entry and an exit hole in said aeroplane.

My next door neighbour but one (who simply has to remain anonymous) flew a racetrack pattern and dropped a 1,000 ponder on bloke plus donkey!

Had this story escaped into the left wing tree-hugging press, there would have been an international outrage.

Those of us who were on the receiving end of the other side of terrorism, I thought it was wonderful and I envied my man hugely. It reminded me of the famous scene from the "Crocodile Dundee" movie where the mugger with the knife has a go and Crocodile Dundee pulls out this massive machette and says "that's not a knife - this is a knife"!

[Capot]

On a show-the-flag trip from Aden, along the beach, up into the Hadramaut, thence to Ataq, our little convoy was fired on by an angry chap with an ancient piece, partly concealed by a large boulder and halfway up a very steep, very high valley side, somewhere in a wadi in the Eastern Protectorate.

We unhooked a 25pdr, loaded and put a shell just in front of his rock. Firing over open sights at about 600 yards the shell's fuze barely had time to arm.

He leaped out, shouting imprecations at how unsporting this was, and ran up the hill, followed by a series of 25pdr shell bursts behind him, aimed to annoy but not to injure. It would have been very unsporting to actually hurt him, after all.

That same trip gave us the remarkable experience of watching our air support Venoms (or was it Hunters, or both?) flying past us along the beach, no higher than we were. Could they have been from Africa, somewhere?

[Cornish Jack]

Beverleys and Dhala.
The original Dhala strip was a bit limited and in order to accommodate the Bev on its original 'hot and high' trials, the runway was extended ... by adding on a bit at an angle to the original!! Bev duly completed trials but the mid take-off swerves did funny things to the fuselage perfection. That particular airframe, in service, had a couple of knots better performance than its sisters 'cos of the twist! Well, it would, wouldn't it!!:E

[Wander00]

Please excuse a bit of thread drift - in my ultimate job, as Secretary of the largest (in membership) yacht club in the UK I was attending a late Member's funeral in Beaulieu Abbey. I noticed 84 Sqn's Standard laid up and always intended to investigate "Why Beaulieu Abbey" - but never got round to it (proably the result of a very comprehensive "Wake") - so why is 84's Standard in Beaulieu?

[JW411]

My copy of "Scorpions Sting" tells me that 84 Sqn formed at Beaulieu in Jan. 1917.

It also tells me that No.84 was given a new Squadron Standard on Thursday, 23 October, 1980. After details of the ceremony we are told that "the old Standard was later laid up in Beaulieu Abbey Church for safe keeping, where it still hangs today".

There is also a photograph of the old Standard being handed over to the Vicar of Beaulieu Abbey Church, the Rev Kenneth Davis, by Sqn Ldr NRW Hibberd.

[Wander00]

JW411-I am in your debt - thank you

[Proplinerman]

Interested to see references here to "JEJ." This must be Air Vice Marshal "Johnnie" Johnson and I recall from my teenage reading of his (excellent) book "Full circle," that his last job in the RAF, until his retirement in 1964, was Air Officer Commanding, RAF Middle East.

I came across this gentleman later in life, because, after his retirement from the RAF, he established a Housing Association, the "Johnnie Johnson Housing Trust," which, as far as I'm aware, still exists; and, by chance, my late father became his solicitor and got to know Johnnie quite well.

Sadly, I only met him fleetingly, at a dinner in M/C in the 1980s, at which he was the speaker. However, I do have in my possession, inherited from my father, a limited edition print of a painting by Robert Taylor, that shows four D-day marked Spitfires over the Normandy beaches-which are engulfed in flames and smoke.

The caption on the print reads: "Four Spitfires over the D-day beaches. "Johnnie" Johnson leading 144 Canadian Wing over the Normandy beaches, 6th June 1944. First edition print individually signed by Air Vice Marshal J E Johnson CB CBE DSO DFC."

The icing on the cake however is a personal inscription to my father from JEJ, on the border of the print, which reads "Maurice [my father's name], all good wishes, Johnnie, 15th May 1981." I've been told this makes it worth something, but I am not parting with it, as obviously it has sentimental value.

[ICM]

Capot's story recalls a bit of Argosy flag-waving, also with fighter escort. It's 31 December 1966 and I land after a late morning continuation detail to find the Nav section deserted, save for a note saying I've been 'volunteered' for a task that had just come in. This turned out to be a leaflet drop at a number of dots on the map up-country, for which 2 Hunters would provide escort. So we all briefed together, they caught us up en-route and made diving passes as the leaflets were chucked out from the para doors. A good time was had by all, I don't think we were shot at, and I can only hope that some leaflets reached their intended readers. (I kept a copy for my logbook and, to this day, still have no idea what they were about.)

There were other interesting drops adding colour to the route task in that last Aden year - one to an Army expedition on Socotra and, only days later, another to drop rations and mail at Salalah, temporarily closed after flooding. (We'd had flooding in Aden too from the same storm system, as I recall.) And, of course, there were relatively routine Army resupply drops up-country, where I can count Mukeiras, Ataq, Lodar, and Dhala.

So, anyone from 215 with tales from Confrontation?

[avionic type]

I wonder why the Men at the Ministry insisted on the poor old Noddy having to have a Flt Engineer ? the civie version was designed to be a 2 crew flt deck and worked quite well unless you wanted to gain height quickly why did they saddle the poor thing with an extra crew member with the extra weight ,possibly a Navigator for those moments if you got lost might have helped but his bag with a few maps and pencils ect would not have been so heavy as that F/Es panel ,it wasn't a complcated bird fuel wise and pressurisation + deicing consisted of a few switches and dials well within the compass of 2 crew .

On my way to my Atomic bombproof shelter now.:confused::confused::confused:

[JW411]

When I got to 105 Sqn in May 1966, there wasn't a lot of up-country work and the squadron seemed to rely on the new chaps arriving from UK all fresh and signed up to do what little work there was while they were still current.

I got checked out by Vic Blake and did my first up-country drop in XP439 on 13 July 1966. The DZ was at a place called Musaymir which was surrounded by substantial hills and it certainly was an eye-opener to me who was not long arrived from UK. Salisbury Plain it certainly wasn't. Not only that, it was a bit higher and a hell of a lot hotter.

I learned a lot from Vic that day. I seem to remember that we had a speed limit of 115 knots when the clamshell doors were open. Above that speed the old girl started to vibrate in a noticeable fashion. Needless to say, an engine failure at those heights and temperatures with the doors open would have got your attention in a major way.

So it was that Vic taught me to ignore the run-in instructions etc on the op order but to start with an escape route from which you would survive an engine failure and then work backwards. It was always better to stick your wing tip into the hills when you had four engines running and the doors were shut and then give yourself the maximum amount of room when things turned unpleasant.

I don't know where he is nowadays but thank you Vic!

[brakedwell]

I last saw Vic in 1982 when he was running the Danair simulator in Horsham. There was a bloated "country club" on 105, whose members were never support qualified and hardly ever flew to the Gulf. Nairobii was their domain. IIRC only four crews were qualified to drop paras, msp's and one ton platforms in my time. Vic, John Stappard, Ash Goodhew and myself. The four support qualified crews were meant to be rotated, but never were. We formed a formation team and called ourselves the Thunderboxes, practising low level close formation flying covertly until we were good enough to play the Hunters at their own game. On our debut I was leading when we approached at 100ft for a run in and break on the easterly runway at Ksar. As you know the 105 sqn building was close to the threshold of 08, so the boss would have had a grandstand view. Apparently he turned incandescent as he watched four Argosies flash past his window and break sharply to the left in five second intervals. When we returned to the squadron we were intercepted by the Nav Flt Cdr. He was praising our performance effusively when the boss appeared looking very unhappy that his planned bollocking had been shot down in flames.

[JW411]

avionic type:

What did the European or, for that matter, the rest of the civilian operators do with the AW650 Argosy?

1. They flew freight on well established airways between well established airfields which normally had at least one ILS and on (usually) scheduled services with full support wherever they went.

Anything else?

What did the RAF do with the AW660 Argosy?

1. See above. Plus many routes which had absolutely no aids apart from our single Doppler, a sun gun and a trusty navigator.

2. Flew it in the Casevac (Casualty evacuation role).

3. Flew it in the PCF (passenger cum freight role.

4. Flew it in the full passenger role.

5. Flew it in the VIP role.

6. Flew it in the para-dropping role. This could be anything from basic static line paratroopers, the SAS, the SBS and HALO (High Altitude Low Opening).

7. Flew it in the supply dropping role. This could be anything from 2xMSPs upon which were mounted vehicles and trailers, through 1-ton containers, SEAC packs down to Free Fall rice sacks which were chucked out at 50 feet agl.

8. Flew it in formation, line astern, vic, echelon and diamond.

9. Flew it low level usually at 250 feet agl.

10. Flew it in the Air Sea Rescue role with Lindholme gear.

11. Landed it on up-country dirt strips sometimes at night with just 5 goose neck paraffin cans marking the strip.

I am sure I have forgotten some of the others.

I flew scheduled night freight around Europe for almost twenty years with a two man crew in civilian life and it was a breeze compared to my time on the RAF Argosy. I think you are trying to compare apples with oranges.

I would not have liked to have done my ten years on the RAF Argosy without a flight engineer. He was a great bit of kit. The same goes for the navigators.

[avionic type]

Sorry Jw441 HUMBLE PIE being eaten as I type , my only excuse was that at BA the crew were always complaining about lack of speed and climb on the old girl and our ex "Noddy" Capt at Brooklands tells of tales what a cow it was to fly on 3 engines and "where is the nearest airfield "?on 2 as it was so underpowered for its job as a freighter we couldn't get rid of it fast enough once we coverted the Vanguards to freighters.I'm not sure but though we flew the 200 series later I dont think they were much better .What were the military ones like to fly?.

[JW411]

The Argosy was, generally speaking, quite a pleasant aircraft to fly. The only thing that I found took a bit of getting used to was the marked nose-up change of trim on finals when land flap was selected. A good push forward was needed on the control column to stay on the glide slope but this was just one of life's great aviation idiosyncrasies.

I don't remember it being difficult to fly on three engines. In those days, we used to really shut the engine down and feather the prop in training (normally No.4 - the critical engine). Nowadays (quite rightly) the engine would just be retarded to flight idle.

Certainly, as a squadron training captain, I spent a lot of time on 3-engines.

Now then, before some clever b*gger comes up and asks for an example of when having a flight engineer proved useful, I will give you one.

On one of my Beihan trips, we got back to the aircraft to discover that the APU (most unusually) had given up the ghost. The F/E changed the glo-plug but it still would not start.

Night stopping Beihan was not an option, for every night, our lot went over the mountain ridge to the west of the strip and met the assorted "unclean" dissidents coming up the other side. If your aircraft was still on the strip then it was quite likely to be hit with a friendly little weapon called a recoilless rifle which delivered an 11 lb explosive. (Nowadays called an RPG). This b*ggered up your aircraft and did your future career no good at all.

We spoke to our leaders in Aden on the HF and they stressed the need to get out of there before nightfall.

That left us with doing a battery start (I seem to remember that No.2 was the favourite engine for this procedure). Well, we got the engine running and we could even get it up to take-off power but that was all we could achieve.

There was an electrical relay on the Dart which needed at least 24v DC on the bus before the relay would make and allow the generator to come on line.

This we did not have and it was getting rapidly dark.

So it was that the F/E (I think it was Andy Anderson) put his thinking cap on and persuaded the army to get two batteries out of their vehicles which he then connected in series on the floor alongside the battery box. He then got some fencing wire and the asbestos gloves and "flashed" the combined current across the terminals of the aircraft battery which was just enough to make the relay and get the generator on line. The rest was easy and off we went back to Neddy's for a cold one or two.

I have little doubt that such a solution would not have caused your BEA crews the slightest bit of trouble.

[avionic type]

Good grief an APU where was it fitted? we never had one we always had GPUs available [soft lot I know ] If I can I'll try and find out what our max freight load we could carry against fuel load .
I have to admire the ingenuity of you Flt engineer getting the genny "online"
THe best point about the plane was as it was all freight and mostly flew at night , most servicing was done in daylight hours so no pressure the down side was returning aircraft during the night with techie defects which had to be fixed to do another same night trip.

[JW411]

Beihan and MT Dollars:

In the 1960s, pretty much the whole of South Arabia worked in MT Dollars.

The coin originated in Austria in 1751 (I think) when Maria Theresa was on the throne. It was a silver 1 thaler coin of about 11/13 fine quality and was about the size of the old pre-decimal British crown coin. Maria Theresa died in 1780.

When I was on 105 Sqn, the locals in Riyan, Salalah, Masirah etc refused to accept any payment unless it was made in MT Dollars. Paper money was viewed with extreme suspicion (they were right)!

Now the MT dollar became in such demand that it was subsequently minted in all sorts of places such as Italy and the Lebanon. The common thread was that the recipient could guarantee that the silver was 11/13 fine.

It didn't matter how new the minted coin was, but the date must never be later than 1780 even if it was minted last year. Otherwise, it would not be accepted up country.

So, we often had to carry huge weights of MT dollars to all of the above destinations in order to pay the local troops.

What has this got to do with Beihan?

Well, the first time I went there I was astonished to find a money changer just by the entrance to the walled souk. He had a wooden "dhow chest" measuring 10 feet x 4 feet x 4 feet and it was filled to the brim with MT dollars! I have often wondered just how many might have been in there. I have also often wondered just how much pressure must have been applied to the bottom of the chest!

Not only that, I was interested to know what he did at 5 o'clock at the end of the banking day since the entire object was immovable. The answer was that he hired two men armed with automatic weapons to sit or sleep on the chest all night.

I would imagine that they were close relatives!

[zetec2]

Avionic Type

The APU was a Rover gas turbine (same as powered the experimental Le Mans Rover & the converted "Auntie Rover, Dad was involved in both whilst working for Pressed Steel) it was mounted in the port boom directly behind the main u/c rear bulkhead (small access door in the bulkhead, although the whole bulkhead came out & a beam went in for APU remove/refit, an arse of a job in K'Sar !) re-oiling (OX38 turbine engine oil- same as the Dart) was carried out with a Risbridger gun system through a small panel in the base of the port boom rear of the u./c bay with an overflow that usually got you on the shoulder as you looked up at the sight glass, oh happy days, didn't we have fun, Paul H.

[tlightb]

Interesting to read the Tales From Dhala so perhaps I should add my own. 21 Sqn had a daily Twin Pin service to Habilayn and beyond, usually on to Dhala and across to Musamir and to other destinations as required. Role was general re-supply and recovery. The standard way into Dhala was as stated previously, approach and land into the mountain, turn around and depart the way you came. SOP was to land, keep engines running, unload take on board any kit/personnel returning and fly out again.

Landing there one morning we stopped and engines idling, the Nav (me) went back to check the load going off and see what was coming back on when I notice the Pilot waving his arms frantically, at first I thought this was not too unusual until I noticed he had his .38 Smith and Wesson in his hand. At this point I thought I had better go and see if he had flipped altogether, but the problem turned out to be a donkey that was wandering slowly into the arc of the port prop. Pilot decided best course was to deter donkey with a warning winging bullet, first pull "nothing" as the SOP was to load five with the first chamber empty but two and three nothing either. At this point the donkey sniffs the prop area and departs slowly stage left. Pilot settles down and we depart normally.

The crew room rumour was that the armoury thought that aircrew shouldn't be issued with dangerous weapons hence duff ammo and that in an emergency the handgun could be thrown at an assailant, but this couldn't have been the case as shortly after this we were issued with Sterling SMGs when going up country and these were really dangerous toys.

Regarding JW411 tales of up country improvisations these were often required on 21 Sqn (and the 84 Sqn Bevs too I believe). I remember the inevitable "bump start" on a Twin Pin Leonides when the starter cartridge rotation mechanism packed in, despite the normal nudge with the fire axe. Answer to problem, rope around prop boss other end of rope attached to a vehicle tow ball, engine primed, mag switches on vehicle departs quickly , engine fires.

The best improvisation I can recall was again as with JW411, an engineering fix, ground engineering this time. At the larger up country strips Habilayn/Ataq for example where the larger aircraft went in there was a fire truck manned by a crew of RAF Sargeant and his SAC mate. We took of from one of these strips and got a fire warning in the starboard engine. This was handled as per check list and we went back in. Inspection showed no fire but a stub exhaust on the collection ring had blown a threaded stub plate and hot exhaust gases were directed on to the fire warning sensor wiring, hence the warning. Much scratching of heads but RAF Sargeant disappears into truck and comes back with bits that will screw back into vacant stub. Run engine and test. Take empty aircraft back to Khormaksar. Not SOP but as JW411 said, not best procedure to leave aircraft overnight in up country locations at that time.

[Fareastdriver]

cing wire and the asbestos gloves and "flashed" the combined current across the terminals

Nothing new. On the Valiant if you closed up the bomb bay with the interior lights on, easily done, the battery would go flat. It happened in the States and you needed 24 volts to get the power on from a ground power unit. Two batteries on the tarmac, crawl inside a panel in the nosewheel bay, flash bang, it's on line.

[zetec2]

JW411

I have an MT dollar sat on the table alongside me now, one of the treasures that came back from Aden (along with a cutlery set bought at the China Shop, top end of Maalla Straight, still in use !) with me, the MT Dollar was hidden in my underpants as we came through UK Customs as they were not supposed to leave the country I believe ?, Paul H.

[Amos Keeto]

You'll find almost every Argosy built here including all operators and more:

AWA ARGOSY (http://www.argosyair.co.uk/index.html)

[Cornish Jack]

tlightb - re. the non-working ammo. In the mid 50s we were being issued with the same stuff. Rumour had it that it was ex Boer war stock and had been kept in store at X group since the turn of the century. I think I only did one range session during my time there and my record was 25 trigger pulls to fire 6 shots!! The idea that throwing the things would be more effective than shooting with them had much currency.
The other received wisdom of keeping an empty chamber as 'next up' was equally current but (as I later discovered with a frisson of cold sweat!!) not wise. On a round trip to Nicosia we were issued with the usual arms and ammo and had to wear them (EOKA and all that) I kept the usual 'five only' loaded, spotted by an alert (and knowledgeable) 'plod' doing the Customs check who pointed that I had a Colt instead of the usual Smith & Wesson (or vice versa) and the chamber rotation was the other way:uhoh::eek:
All that apart, the likelihood of our being able to outgun the locals if we went down in the boonies was zilch and the 'goolie chits' which we carried were even less use than the weaponry. The offered reward fo safe return of aircrew or political officers was about half of what the opposition was offering for said persons dead or alive.:{ I still have my 'goolie chit' and, thankfully, never had to test its efficacy.

[Speedbird48]

JW411,

If that is the same Andy Anderson that I remember from BOAC/BA does anyone know where he is??

Speedbird48

[brakedwell]

Residents in the flats along the Maala Straight had to guard their blocks at night. The designated warden for each block was issued with a Smith & Wesson .38 and five rounds of ammo, which was handed from guard to guard at the end of their two hours stints. All the bullets I ever saw were dated between 1945 and 1947, long past their sell by date. During our six monthly range practices five out six of the same aged bullets only managed to fall out of the end of the barrel. After our flat was broken into by a local I bought a very nice Colt automatic from a white hunter aquaintance in Nairobi.

[zetec2]

tlightb,
Interesting to read the Tales From Dhala so perhaps I should add my own. 21 Sqn had a daily Twin Pin service.

Thought it was 78 Sqn that did the Twin Pin runs ? I stand to be corrected obviously, PH.

[brakedwell]

IIRC when 78 Sqn was re-equipped with Wessex, some of the Twin Pioneers were transferred to 21 Sqn, which was operating a Dakota.

[tlightb]

Zetec2, Brakedwell is correct. I believe the sequence was that 21 Sqn had been based in Kenya with Twin Pins and the previous Aden operator 78 Sqn converted to Wessex when 21 Sqn moved to Khormaksar. When I was there in 66/67 the squadron had five or six Twin Pins, one Dakota and two VIP HS748s.

The Twin Pin in the RAF Museum at Cosford (XL993) is ex-21 Sqn. It was ferried back in Sept 66 for refurb. I was the Nav on that trip.

[ICM]

tlightb: I'm kicking myself that I can't remember the name of the pilot who normally flew that Dakota. And I seem to recall that, contrary to what one might expect, pilots from the Hunter Wing were keen to volunteer to fly as copilot with him on that rare remaining WWII aircraft - or have I just imagined that over the years? (I think there was also one in Oslo for CINC AFNORTH around that time, and they were probably the last two on the RAF's books.)

[tlightb]

ICM: When I first arrived at Khormaksar the pilot was Flt Lt Pete Norris and when he was tourex the pilot was Flt Lt Mike Bennett. You may remember Mike from Nav School as he was a staff pilot there prior to Khormaksar and not universally popular, but on the Squadron he was fine as he was at home with the rest of the old wartime boys. Regular Nav was Fg Off Alan Barker whom you may know too.

My logbook says the Dakota was KN452 and I seem to recall it was sold to a civilian operator at some point and subsequently scapped after further commercial use.

Ref the Hunter pilot as co-pilot you are correct, there is a recent book by Chris Bain who was a pilot on 8 Sqn (or 43) and he flew as co to Mike Bennett. The book covers this and other Khormaksar tales; title is Cold War, Hot Wings, publisher is Pen & Sword but the local library provided my copy.

Hope this helps. Rgds.T.

[forget]

Here's your Dakota - at Khormaksar.

Douglas Dakota KN452 at RAF Khormaksar 1967 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kendavies/4793991623/)

[Brian 48nav]

Al Barker was then (after) on 30 at Fairford - any idea what happened to him?

[Wander00]

IIRC, around 1988 there were the CinC and 2 AOCs retiring from Brampton, so they all went for a final flight in the RAE Dakota. Got a round of applause for it at their Dining Out, accompanied by a mass launch of polystyrene Tucanos

[JW411]

Speedbird 48:

Yes, I think that's the same Andy. I bumped into him in a pub in West Sussex about 20 years ago and he was on the 747. I'm sorry but I've no idea where he is nowadays.

[Speedbird48]

ICM,

A bit of a thread drift, but:
The Dakota in Oslo was KP208 and it is now a memorial to the para's, It was once at Aldershot but I believe has now moved.
There was another one for the AOC Gib' KN452 as I was on it until 1959 when they replaced it with a Devon. Dennis Barty was the boss.
There were 4 more somewhere, I believe fitted with skyshouting loudspeakers?? But the brain has forgotton where.

Speedbird48

[Speedbird48]

Hi JW411,

What a small world, again!! That must be the same Andy as he lived in Storrington, W. Sussex in 1986 and had two fancy Italian cars that he had fixed up.
He was the same guy on 707's as when one of the stewards had not latched the rear galley door, Andy depressurised and went back and udid the door slightly, just enough to get the latches locked and then went on the Toronto.
That is when F/E's were real F/E's and knew their stuff.
Speedbird48.

[Speedbird48]

tlightb,
Not sure when it was in Aden but I am guessing before we got it in Gib'.
After Gib' KN452 went back to the UK and after a few years it was sold to the Kenya Police Air Wing to replace one that crashed about Christmas time after a load shifted on take-off. I was there with East African at the time.
From there I believe it went to Canada and finally ended up in the Far East where it was broken up, or so the history books show..
An interesting aircraft as it had been on the Berlin Air Lift. there are pictures of it in various books. When we had it in Gib' the floor was taken up and there was a lot of coal dust in the bottom. 10 VIP seats and Oak panels above and coal dust below!!
Sorry for the drift once again.
Speedbird48.

[JW411]

If I remember correctly, KN452 left Khormaksar for UK at the beginning of November 1967 in company with the last three remaining 84 Sqn Beverleys.

I have a reference that it was sold on 22 July 1969 but where it went, I know not.

[brakedwell]

If I remember correctly, KN452 left Khormaksar for UK at the beginning of November 1967 in company with the last three remaining 84 Sqn Beverleys.


That must have slowed it down :E

[blaireau]

I too have an MT dollar which I bought at Sheikh Robbies in the old SHJ suq. "Happy Days" to quote Pat Rooney!

[ICM]

tlightb: Of course, Mike Bennett on the Dakota.... and my first trip at Stradishall (Navex A1, All Aids Day). And I went through South Cerney and started at 2ANS with Al Barker.

But back with the Argosy - to my mind, one of the things on JW411's list of things that differentiated the military from the civil version in a very particular way was the occasional dropping of two linked Medium Stressed Platforms (MSP), with a Land Rover and trailer on each. Navs had only to call 'Green On' at the right moment and then hang on for dear life to the board on which they would lie up front for supply dropping whilst the extractor chute fell, deployed, and started to pull the weight of a full freight bay out of the back. Upstairs, both pilots had to prepare to deal with the immense and rapid change of trim about to occur as the second platform went over the ramp, something that then threw the Nav and his board up in the air for a moment before crashing back down. I have no doubt that someone can explain more fully the challenge involved in this mildly hair-raising procedure!

[brakedwell]

I have no doubt that someone can explain more fully the challenge involved in this mildly hair-raising procedure!

Have a look at my post 51.

[mally35]

JW 411. Just looked in my log book to note that on Nov.22 1965 I was crewed on XP 443 and flew Muharraq to Teheran and then back to Akrotiri. I think that as there isn't another entry until the 26th I must have 'hitched' home.


Mally 35

[JW411]

Brakedwell:

Actually, I believe the Dakota sailed back to UK without a single problem.

As already mentioned, I rescued Dick Barton when I flew a spare engine to Jeddah from Bahrain (he had landed there on two engines).

One of the other Beverleys went through a Cb full of frozen golfballs and got quite badly dented but eventually made it to El Adem.

I think the other one was intercepted by Egyptian MIGs and was actually shot at until ATC sorted out their diplomatic clearance paperwork.

[JW411]

Double MSPs:

First of all, what is an MSP? It is (or was) a Medium Stressed Platform (otherwise known as the Boscombe Platform). At first glance it looked like a large aluminium pallet and it could carry a maximum load of 18,000 lbs but, more normally, it would be 12,000 lbs (Short Wheel Base Land-Rover and trailer or 14,000 lbs LWB Land-Rover plus trailer).

However, underneath the platform were two longitudinal trap doors hinged lengthwise which were kept closed (mainly) by the weight of the load and sandwiched between the bottom of the platform and the trap doors were several heavy duty circular rubber bags with the bottom removed.

The axles of the vehicle and trailer were also supported by wooden struts which would break the fall of the platform when it finally reached the ground.

So, how did work? A 30 foot extractor parachute was mounted in a quick release mechanism on the upper clamshell door. When the navigator, who was lying face down in the nose at the supply-dropping panel, pulled the release handle, the extractor chute fell into the slipstream and deployed.

The rear mounted MSP (which was mounted on roller conveyor with side guidance) would then set off backwards at the speed of an express train. At the same time, a clockwork mechanism was started and once the load was well clear of the aircraft, the trap doors would open, the rubber balloons would inflate and the main parachutes would then deploy (the number varied from 4 to 6 depending on the weight of the platform).

Assuming all went well, the army now had a serviceable Land-Rover and trailer somewhere near where they wanted it.

Meanwhile back at the ranch; the extractor chute for the second MSP was mounted on the bonnet of the first Land-Rover which had just departed. A clever bit of kit called (I think) a CATRA (transfer release apparatus) which consisted of a bowden cable of a known length taped to the floor in snake-like fashion with bodge tape started the timer for the second platform.

If all went according to plan, the the second extractor chute yanked out the second MSP and the whole procedure was repeated.

From the piloting point of view, dropping a double MSP got your undivided attention. Unlike the C-130 (where the rear door went up into the roof) the Argosy was fitted with clamshell doors. So, with the rear door down, the effective fuselage length for weight and balance purposes had just increased by 10 feet or more.

Can you just imagine the effect on the aircraft trim when 14,000 lbs went over the sill? Of course, as soon as it had gone, we then had 14,000 lbs (the second platform) well forward of the normal C of G! When that one got going, we pretty quickly had an extremely aft C of G again until it had also gone!

When I was a young co-pilot, I got crewed up with the dreaded Dad Owen. I can remember doing one of the first double MSPs (at Larkhill, I think) and we were quite worried about the whole affair. Both of us were pushing like hell when the first one went and then we were both pulling like hell until the second one got going.

We got a boffin to come down from Coventry with an "inclinometer" to measure the differences in deck angle. After a few weeks of playing with his abacus he came to the conclusion that the most effective thing that we could do was to do absolutely nothing and just let it all happen!

Easier said than done.

Of course, the worse thing that could happen was a malfunction of the wonderful CATRA and to have the main parachutes deploy whilst the platform was still in the aircraft. At best you would get a mains extraction which meant the load was quite likely to jam in the aircraft and it would then all be over quite quickly!

[Neptunus Rex]

Back in 1966, I was on detachment from 120Sqn, Mk III Shacks, at RAF Changi. Barry, one of my course mates from Schwyerston and Oakington, was on 215 Sqn Argosies, feeling very superior, being a shirtsleeve order wearing 'Trash Hauler.'

As luck had it, we were both scheduled to fly from Changi to RAF Kai Tak (Hong Kong for the youngsters) on the same morning, at roughly the same time. I challenged him to a bottle of claret to be paid for by the later arrival. He laughed and accepted the bet.

I greeted him on his arrival at the Kai Tak Officers' Mess, having beaten him by an hour. His Argosy had a large cargo load, so had to refuel en-route. Although slower, we could fly direct with fuel to spare.

The tortoise won.

[ICM]

Somehow since posting, I see that the vehicles on my MSPs have become Trabants - :ok: a nice idea, though I'd guess they were not easily got hold of by 47 Air Dispatch Regiment circa 1967 and, even if they had been, I wonder how well they would have survived the drop procedure!

[brakedwell]

Like the Britannia and the Comet.

[Fareastdriver]

For those who are not fully up to speed, Trabant is the new nickname for a Landrover.

[ancientaviator62]

At the risk of a slight thread drift a triple ULLA (3 x 14000 lbs per platform ) drop from the Herc also produced an 'interesting' set of trim changes !

[mally35]

Neptunus Rex....would that be Barry St****ns by any chance?

[Sinker]

I preferred the Argosy to the C130 for being first in the stick because you had the boom to look at as you stood in the door - a rectangle of grey sky I found rather disorientating.

[brakedwell]

One of the other Beverleys went through a Cb full of frozen golfballs and got quite badly dented but eventually made it to El Adem.

I think the other one was intercepted by Egyptian MIGs and was actually shot at until ATC sorted out their diplomatic clearance paperwork.

Apologies for another thread drift, but it is topical me honour. On July 22 1977 I was flying an IAS DC8 from Gatwick to Nairobi with a tech stop at Benina. We were ten miles out on a straight in approach to RWY 15 when a panic stricken controller shouted FF *** we are under attack by Egyptian MIGS, go away fast as you can!. When we saw several black dots heading towards us at high speed I turned left on to a northerly heading and cleaned up while descending to 300 feet PDQ. We diverted to Malta and night stopped while the company arranged overflight clearance via Cairo and Sudan. Due to the hostilities Sudan airspace was closed TFN, so we were ordered back to Gatwick. Unfortunately the runways at Malta were not long enough for a DC8 with 48 tonnes of payload to carry Gatwick fuel, so we were told to route via Athens with enough fuel to divert to Cairo should Sudan clearance come through. It didn't and we refuelled at Athens before returning to Gatwick - a very costly trip for IAS.

[Brian 48nav]

Were you my captain when I was detached to JATE 72/3?

Brian Wildey

[JW411]

A funny story about a double MSP flight:

Preparing, loading and then rigging all the bits required for a double MSP drop took some time. At Benson, all of this was done by No.47 Air Despatch RCT. They were running a bit late and it was a Friday afternoon. The crew were a bit worried about missing Happy Hour.

Both MSPs had long wheel base Land-Rovers mounted. This meant that the bonnet of the forward Land-Rover encroached into the space normally taken up by the cockpit access ladder. This meant that said ladder had to be rested on top of the bonnet. This made getting into the flight deck a bit of an acrobatic exercise.

The local DZ for supply dropping was on the old grass airfield at Watchfield, near Shrivenham and it was only a few minutes flying away.

So, off they went in a bit of a rush and promptly delivered the two MSPs to Watchfield, closed the doors and shot off back to Benson.

When they got back and shut the aircraft down, the navigator couldn't find his hat, his tunic or his navbag. It then slowly dawned on him that he had put the whole lot in the front Land-Rover which he had then promptly dropped at Watchfield!

Amazingly, he got the lot back undamaged courtesy of 47 Air Despatch.

[JW411]

mally 35:

I'm sorry, I didn't get back to you. We took XP443 Akrotiri - Tehran - Bahrain on the night of 20 November 1965 and returned with XR134 Bahrain - Tehran - Akrotiri on 22 November 1965.

Like you, I vanished in Akrotiri so I must have deadheaded home.

[mally35]

PM sent. Thanks.

[tlightb]

Brian 48nav: Alan Barker was living and working out in New Zealand when I last spoke to one of his friends (05/06 timescale). If you want to know more send me your details as a private e-mail and I'll pass on to someone who may be in contact.

[JW411]

Possibly my Last MSP Story:

XR105 was delivered as a new aircraft to AAEE at Boscombe Down from the manufacturers in 1963. A couple of years later, it appeared on 267 Squadron. The first thing that got our attention was the "gubbins" which had been installed underneath the glare shield in the cockpit.

Upon further inspection, we discovered that the "gubbins" was, in fact, an exact replica of the despatching handle mechanism that the navigator had in the supply-dropping position down stairs (the mechanism that he had to pull in order to set in motion the extractor chute in order to yank MSPs out of the aeroplane).

If my memory serves me right, the controls consisted of a good old fashioned lever running in a vertical gate which was protected by a Red push/pull locking knob which prevented the inadvertant pulling of the main lever.

Now AAEE at Boscombe had apparently been looking at what might happen if the 30 foot extractor chute had deployed but the load had jammed. In order to carry out this trial, they had modified XR105 with a replica "gubbins" up on the flight deck so that they could get rid of the chute just as they were about to lose control without involving the chap in the nose.

Let us for the purpose of the tale call the new "gubbins" in XR105, Modification 610.

So it was that we discovered that Mod 610, which was only mounted in XR105, was a bl**dy nuisance. It was mounted horizontally underneath the glare shield and so made looking at the engine instruments quite difficult apart from anything else. We also discovered that it was mounted in series with the navigator's "gubbins" downstairs by bowden cable so that, unless the red locking knob had been removed upstairs, the nav could not move his handle downstairs!

If matters had been allowed to rest at that point, I am sure that we could have lived with XR105 until someone took the damned thing out.

Of course, it didn't happen that way. A young engineering officer at Benson who was involved in heavy maintenance realised that the aircraft passing through his hands had not had Mod 610 incorporated. So, he decided to start fitting Mod 610 to all the aircraft passing through his hands despite being told by the aircrew to desist.

The next phase in this Gilbertian charade was when the engineers were persuaded that we did not need it and also found Mod 610 to be a potential menace.

Well, they didn't have time to take it out again but decided to disconnect the "gubbins" in the meantime.

So we had three different types of Argosys:

1. Those which had never had Mod 610 fitted.
2. Those which had Mod 610 fitted and fully functional.
3. Those which had Mod 610 fitted but disabled.

The inevitable happened.

Six Argosys dropping Land-Rovers and trailers in line astern on an exercise at Milltown (near Lossiemouth). On the run-in, the clamshell doors are opened and nav downstairs asks crew upstairs to pull the Red knob on the "gubbins" so that he can pull his handle at the appointed moment.

Somehow or other, the co-pilot not only pulled the Red knob but also pulled the despatch handle and so it was that two Land-Rovers and trailers exited the aeroplane at speed about 4 miles from the DZ and presented a local farmer with some nice equipment.

The poor old nav was speechless for he had not touched anything.

The Argosy crew behind were rather startled to get a mouthful of Land-Rovers and trailers in their faces long before they expected it.

The local press loved the story.

The engineering department were finally persuaded to put everything back exactly as they found it.

The sad note was that XR105 went back to Boscombe Down (ETPS) and was written off on 27.04.76.

[Neptunus Rex]

mally 35
Sorry mate, a different Bazza, don't know that one.

[JW411]

Neptunus Rex:

As a matter of idle curiosity, I met a 37 Sqn MR.II somewhere near Riyan one day and we legged it towards Khormaksar for an hour or so in approximate formation.

He landed before I did.

My "nextdoor neighbour but one" in Maala Strait told me that the race cost them one Griffon and a lot of work to another one.

My four Darts were good for another 10,000 hours.

[JW411]

http://www.frpilot.com/Dad/Beihan.JPG
Beihan barber's shop. The chair is one of the pilot's seats from 30 Sqn Beverley XH118 which crashed at Beihan on 04.02.58.

http://www.frpilot.com/Dad/Beihan (2).JPG
Beihan Souk.

[JW411]

http://www.frpilot.com/Dad/VW817-2.JPG
Wreckage of Valetta VW817 which crashed on landing at Firq 14.01.59

http://www.frpilot.com/Dad/VW817-3.JPG

[Discorde]

Two more Wheelbarrow (BEA version) stories. Can't vouch for the veracity of either:

(i) Milan Linate to Heathrow. SOP was to climb in the hold at Trezzo VOR up to MSA (FL180) & then set course across the Alps. On one occasion an Argosy gets to MSA & then a donk packs up. So they spiral back down again in the TZO hold & land back at Linate. About an hour, then, to go from MXP to nowhere & back again. We fared better in the Guardsvan – only once round the TZO hold was usually required for adequate terrain clearance.

(ii) An Argosy is overflying Paris when a prop overspeeds. Before the crew can respond the prop disintegrates & knocks out the adjacent engine. Previous posts have referred to the (non) perf of the Barrow with two out on one side. The crew divert to Paris. At the subsequent court martial it is suggested to the Capt that he was too slow in initiating the overspeed drill & shutdown.

'Can you remember your first response when you realised a prop was overspeeding?' asked the inquisitor.

'Yes, I remember clearly,' responds the Capt. 'My first action was to stub out my cigar.'

[Flap40]

[pedant mode]

MXP is the code for Malpensa. Linate is LIN.

[/pedant mode]

[brakedwell]

Jock, when I first saw the remains of the Valetta in August 1959 a witness to the accident told me it ran over a land mine. A common occurrence in those days, not only on the Firq strips, but also along the road to the Northern Frontier camp at Nizwa. Being a coward who valued his crown jewels I always flew the Tin Pin to the 300 yd strip inside the camp at the end of the day, if we were forced to night stop at the bottom of the Jebel. Saiq was a much nicer option, although officially we were not allowed to shut down engines up there in case they failed to start again. The NFR Major in charge was a very hospitable ex SAS veteran called John Cooper, who was David Stirling's driver in North Africa during WW2. I will always remember the cold beer, wild strawberries and tales of daring do in the deserts of N Africa and the jungles of Malaya.

[Discorde]

Thanx F40. Unforgiveable error! Did enough LINs in the Vibrator - should have known better! Can remember the c/s though - BE2121 out & 2122 back. Or it might have been 2120 out & 2121 back or . . . wha'ever.

[ICM]

Discorde: Regrettably, I can't comment on what happened at any subsequent investigation, but I happened to be on a flight back to Benson, passing Paris, as the BEA aircraft made its Emergency call and began its diversion. My recollection of a piece in 'Flight' reporting the incident a week or two later is that the sheered-off prop (or bits of it) also hit the top of the flight deck before disappearing into some Parisian suburb .... probably pretty much where, as Nav, I sat in the RAF version!

[Cornish Jack]

JW411 - re. the Valetta at Firq - 78Sqn?? Possibly, but when I left Aden Valettas in Jan '58 we were operating as 84 Sqn, having migrated through Aden Comms Sqn and Aden Protectorate Comms and Support Sqn ... phew! a mouthful. 78, at that time were operating Twin Pins and (possibly, still) Singles.

[JW411]

http://www.frpilot.com/Dad/XP408.JPG
XP408 at Heima 24.02.70
http://www.frpilot.com/Dad/Iran.JPG
The mountains of southern Iran

[JW411]

Cornish Jack:

In mitigation, my information came from the Air-Britain publication SA100-VZ999. This gives the history of VW817 as:

"RAFFC/114/78 Tyre burst on landing; swung off runway and tipped up, Firq, Oman, 14.01.59".

Now this information comes from the Aircraft Data Card (Form 78) which are quite often less than accurate especially when overseas squadrons are involved.

As a result of your comment, I have done some digging and the answer is as clear as mud!

I started with "Scorpions Sting" the story of 84 Sqn by Don Neate. VW817 is not listed as being an 84 Sqn aircraft nor is there any mention of the accident at Firq in the text.

He does give us a couple of clues:

"In May 1958 the arrival of the first two Beverlys on the station meant a gradual decline of the Valetta flights. Sqn Ldr Bill Talbot DFC and bar writes 'The position of Harry Guile and myself as "joint" COs was grey to say the least. The unfortunate thing was that the Beverlys did not get going for some months due to persistent engine problems. The future of the Valettas was chewed over until it was finally decided to extend their lives in Aden. We were more or less regarded as 84 Squadron "A" and "B" Flights and the situation was finally resolved by the reforming of No.233 Squadron with 84's flight of Valettas, which were eventually retired in 1964 when No.233 Sqn was disbanded".

Later on we get "Sqn Ldr Bill Talbot DFC remained in charge of the Valettas until April 1959 when they were handed over to No.233 Squadron...."

I think you are right about 78 Sqn. I have a reference saying that they reformed in Aden with Pioneers on 15.04.56. Twin Pins followed in October 1958.

To further confuse the issue, "Broken Wings" attributes the accident to 84 Sqn!

So, to recap it would appear that VW817 was still issued officially on its aircraft record card to 78 Sqn. It can't be put down to 233 Sqn because the accident happened before they reformed.

By default, it would therefore have to be an 84 Sqn event although they never officially owned the aeroplane and make no mention of the loss in their history!

Actually, none of this surprises me in the slightest. I was Orederly Officer in Muharraq one day and I was told to go and check 30 Sqn's main inventory. I came back after a couple of hours and filled in the paperwork. I declared them to be 3 Beverleys deficient and 2 Beverleys surplus.

I was told by some po-faced pillock that I couldn't do that. "They simply cannot have lost three Beverleys!!!" I then asked him why it was that I had just wasted my morning on a pointless exercise if he didn't want to hear the truth!

Of course, 3 of the aircraft had been sent down to Aden to keep 84 up to strength and 2 others had been scrounged from somewhere else.

Simples, as they say nowadays.

I should be very grateful if you ever find out who really owned VW817.

[brakedwell]

Perhaps the burst tyre was caused by a landmine The damage looks as if it was caused by an explosion.

[forget]

All crew survived so it looks as if some serious hacking was done after the accident. Complete instrument panel removed for spares perhaps.

[JW411]

http://www.frpilot.com/Dad/XS611.JPG
Andover XS611 landing at Salalah. SOAF Beaver on the right.http://www.frpilot.com/Dad/N9588Z.JPG
Curtiss C-46 Commando N9588Z at Salalah. She was part of the fleet of the JW Mecom Oil Company based at Midway/Thumrait up on the jebel north of Salalah. The star of the fleet was Douglas B-23 Dragon N86E. There was also a Lockheed Lodestar N5231N and two Fairchild C-82 Packets N127E and N128E. The latter aircraft was shot down by Migs over Egypt when it was caught in Egyptian airspace without diplomatic clearance.

Anyway, when I took this photograph, the starter motor on the port engine of the Commando was broken. Two chaps are pulling the prop through whilst the guy in the cockpit is priming the engine. A short time later, the askaris who can be seen on the left were co-opted to pull on a rope with a bit of sacking on the end and attached to one of the propeller blades and told to run. The engine started straight away!

[Cornish Jack]

JW411, thank you for the clarification(?) - as you say, difficult to follow which and what was where:confused:
Can't find 817 in my logbook although a couple of the 800 series appear regularly. Valettas being reduced to spare parts in the Protectorate was sufficiently frequent not to warrant much excitement!! One of my contemporaries managed to be involved in no less than six crashes during his two year tour!! His emergency drills were immaculate!!
817's missing wheel is reminescent of a sister aircraft at an E African airfield with Wing Pilot and Flt Cdr sharing the front seats. A Valetta 'arrival' was ever a matter of chance and on this one the bounce was aided by an undulating runway. At the top of the bounce, a round black object was seen preceding them down the runway and the final contact was noisy and slewed. My mate was on board AGAIN and departed the scene, upwind, hotly pursued by the Nav. Some minutes passed and no sign of the pilots, so a CAUTIOUS return was made. Missing pair were, apparently, still ensconced and discussing likely cause of the detached wheel!!:uhoh:
My own one and only was at Beihan in 165 ending up with a missing tail wheel and cracked main spar and a bemused Dutch newsman who had assumed all arrivals were similarly untidy!! The remains were later converted into a combined Mess. That it was considered 'par for the course' is indicated by the logbook entry NOT being annotated - just a different airframe and 'passenger duty' for the return to K'sar.
Apologies for the thread drift.

[ICM]

Thanks, Jock, it was always interesting to see any of those MECOM aircraft during turnrounds at Salalah. Forever afterwards I felt convinced that one of them must have been bought for use in "Flight of the Phoenix," but a bit of googling has just told me otherwise. Seems the film came out in '65, before I went out to Aden and 105. I had slides of them all at one time, unfortunately long lost now.

[brakedwell]

the askaris who can be seen on the left were co-opted to pull on a rope with a bit of sacking on the end and attached to one of the propeller blades and told to run. The engine started straight away!

Same procedure on the Tin Pin, except we used Army Officers in lieu of Askaris - the more senior the better!

[forget]

Here's your Douglas Dragon. A full life indeed. :ok:
I don't know why the clappy thing is in there.

File:Douglas B-23 N86E Athens 220473-1-.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Douglas_B-23_N86E_Athens_220473-1-.jpg)

... and the aircraft you mentioned are here

Khormaksar civilian aircraft (http://radfanhunters.co.uk/Ksar%20civilian%20visitors.htm)

[JW411]

http://www,frpilot.com/Dad/101Course.jpg
Cornish Jack:

When I came out of flying training and was posted on to the Argosy, I would normally have gone to No.242 OCU which was based at Thorney Island which was already equipped with Hastings and Beverley aircraft.

However, the Argosy was a new bit of kit so the aircraft were actually at Benson.

But, and it was a large but, we had to do the Transport Command ground school at Thorney Island. My undying memory was of the Met lecturer who was a dour Scot called Mr. Cruikshank and he could bang on for a whole afternoon about how the Gregale wind could affect the northern Med in the winter. It would be fair to say that staying awake after lunch in the mess and after a few beers was quite impossible.

Anyway, the photograph above is of No. 101 Transport Command Course and you will see that we had a couple of Valetta guys on our course even then.

By the way, the rest of us became No.5 Argosy Course at Benson.

[JW411]

bral:

The Argosy always had a LOX tank. In fact, I think I am right in saying that the Britannia and the Comet and possibly even the VC-10 in Transport Command also had LOX. The thinking at the time was that a small LOX tank could supply oxygen more efficiently than carting dozens of 750 lt bottles around the world.

The big problem was that there were not too many places in the world that had LOX replenishment trolleys. I can tell a funny story of getting to Lajes one night having been down to Ascension Island and various West African destinations. We needed LOX. The flight engineer stayed behind to sort the problem out. It was usually a USAF problem but this night he got the Portugeuse Air Force trolley. After 30 minutes, it had gobbled up the last of the LOX left in the aircraft tank!

The USAF came to the rescue with one of their trolleys but with typical Health and Safety zeal, they left the F/E in charge of the trolley! The inevitable happened and when the safety valve blew and he wanted to run, he found his shoes very firmly frozen to the ramp so he had to stand there and watch everything happen under his nose.

My favourite LOX story involves a famous Argosy Master Loadmaster. He had at one time been in the Navy as a gunner, but apart from his great loadmastering skills, he made "legendary sandwiches".

One day we were at Firq with two other Argosys moving troops and their bangers for Sultan Qabus down to Salalah. I would imagine that the OAT was around 40* degrees celsius. We had been on the ground for about three hours.

We finally got airborne and Tatty Bill asked me if I would like a sandwich. To do this I had to go downstairs and sit at the ALM's table duly decorated with a checked tablecloth and silver cutlery etc.

The sandwich duly arrived surrounded by the usual finery. I congratulated your man and asked him how it was that the butter in his sandwiches was always beautifully cold and crisp and not running like it usually was in that part of the world.

"It's easy, said Tatty Bill, I just put my butter on top of the frozen tank in the nose".

Now those of you who know the devastating results of liquid oxygen coming in contact with any form of grease will raise your eyes to heaven!

I can remember in later life hearing about the AA DC-10 co-pilot who had a moustache. He took a breath of O2 after his lunch and the butter remnants on his moustache caught fire and he burned 50% of his lungs out.

Finally, the most dangerous thing that we ever carried on the Argosy was a mobile LOX Plant. Every time the Hunter squadrons went on detachment to Masirah etc from Aden or Bahrain, a mobile Liquid Oxygen plant had to be delivered.

They were mounted upon MSP platforms sitting on a roller conveyor floor with side guidance complete with extractor chute etc. The LOX plant was vented to atmosphere through two fuselage points considerately provided by MOD and the manufacturers.

In order to carry a mobile LOX plant we were required to visit the station gas plant where we were given demonstrations about what happens to a banana or a hammer when it has been immersed in liquid oxygen. They freeze very rapidly and shatter into a million pieces.

So the big problem with a mobile LOX plant was that if it started to malfunction, the whole floor of the aeroplane would very rapidly crystalise and fall out of the bottom of what was left of the aeroplane.

So it was that we had the bloody things mounted on an MSP so, if the LOX expert that we carried with us said "Go" then whoever happened to be below the aircraft found themselves the proud possesser of a fully malfunctioning mobile LOX plant!

I wonder how many LOX plants BEA carried in their Argosys?

[JW411]

Cornish Jack:

I cocked up the attachment of the photograph to Post #222. In mitigation, I am new to this photo posting game and I do promise to buck up! Anyway, it's up there now.

bral:

Most of the gliders on my gliding club were equipped with A12A regulators liberated from Argosys that had reached the end of their lives. It was a bloody good regulator.

[Brian 48nav]

I remember he was known for allocating marks in the met exam by rank; so Wg Cdr T got 95%,Sqn Ldr C 90% etc down to us lowly Plt Offs who just scraped a pass.

I can still just mimic him saying ' the highest wind speed recorded at Kai Tak was in 1937(?) before the anemometer blow away'.

[JW411]

JW Mecom Oil Company:

So, having opened up this particular can of worms, here are some photographs taken at Sharjah in 1970 when Mecom decided to move out of Oman. I think they were looking for oil in the Wadi Mugshin area to the north and east of Salalah with not a huge amount of luck.

The idea was to fly the aircraft back to Texas but it didn't quite work out that way. The Lodestar didn't even make it past Sharjah and it ended up in a local scrapyard.

The B-23 and the C-82 made it as far as Athens before the crews lost their sense of humour. They (the aircraft) were moved to a local technical college after a couple of years but have both been scrapped as far as I am aware.

The C-46 Commando was the only one that made it back to the USA.

Incidentally, I had half a dozen good shots of the B-23 Dragon N86E. I loaned them to a fellow Air-Britain enthusiast who wrote an article about the B-23 and he used a couple of my photographs in his article. I am quite sure that he sent them all back to me and I put them "somewhere safe".

That is the problem with getting old; the "somewhere safe" depositorys are becoming more and more difficult to find!

http://www.frpilot.com/Dad/OMSJ.JPG

http://www.frpilot.com/Dad/N5231N.JPG

http://www.frpilot.com/Dad/N127E.JPG

[ICM]

November 1966: 3 of the 105 Sqn Argosies used for withdrawal of the Army battalion from Swaziland (Op LOPEN, see post 109) on the ramp at Matsapa.

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc463/Old141Nav/sc000a4955.jpg

[JW411]

Ian, you have just reminded me about one of your previous posts about Matsapa.

I don't know if you were aware of it but the beautiful but not very long runway at Matsapa was actually a 1/8th of an inch of tarmac on top of murram? It looked absolutely wonderful from above but Frank (*) used to beg us not to use the brakes on landing otherwise his runway surface came up in great black bananas and was probably why the maxarets couldn't deal with the situation.

It was very easy to say don't use the brakes but the airfield was on top of a plateau and only about 4,200 feet long.

In fact, the challenge of landing there proved almost too much for a Beverley that touched down 10 feet below the threshold and bounced off the side of the hill on to the runway.

If that had happened to any normal aeroplane, it would have been a disaster but the Beverley was not a normal aeroplane!

(*) Frank: I have it mind that he was SATCO, Chief Fire Officer, Handling Agent, CFI of the Flying Club and ran the Airport Bar?

[ICM]

Jock: I'm pretty certain his name was Frank Brindley. I can't be sure about his being CFI of the Flying Club (I have a club badge somewhere, I'm sure, after our extended stay there) but I think he fulfilled all the other positions you mention. It's probably now safe to say that, once we had the first 2 aircraft serviceable and were waiting for the other 2 to arrive, we did a formation Air Test around Swaziland with Frank and a number of other locals on board. Very pleasant - I had some Super 8 footage of that once, but that too has vanished with the passage of time.

No pictures of the runway, but here's the locally produced TAP we all used, no Jeppesen or AIDU product being available, which I guess you will remember.

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc463/Old141Nav/172d4a05.jpg

[Fareastdriver]

My father, Bill Tait, was at Masapa Flying Club from Feb 1966. I've had a look through his log books and he has the occasional remark like 3 RAF as pax. On 26th June 1966 he did a conversion to the Cessna 180 for a chap called Trevor. He probably never worried about his surname.

[brakedwell]

ICM: The let down plate is dated 1st June 1965, but I can't recall seeing a copy of it during my time on 105. (Aug 64-Aug 66)
BTW can you confirm the pub we stayed at in Manzini was called the Chequers. I remember it being owned by a Czech Countess and it used to be the regular watering hole of King Freddie, with whom I enjoyed a few pints.

[Basil]

I'd put these elsewhere on Prune but perhaps they're worth re posting here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/Capn_Basil/ArgosiesoverChannel1968.jpg
Argosies over Channel 1968

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/Capn_Basil/ArgosyRunninginlivedrop.jpg
Argosy "Running in, live drop!"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/Capn_Basil/RAFBensonArgosy1968.jpg
RAF Benson Argosy 1968

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/Capn_Basil/Bensonboysbehavingbadly1968.jpg
Benson boys behaving badly 1968 (Petrol and Roman candles - recollect worse later outside :E )

Anyone recognise themselves? Yes, I know, one or two no longer with us.

[Basil]

Now this debate about Argosies reversing; I believe we did have an example of one doing just that - IIRC, at Cottesmore.
As der (das, die) Flugzeuge was being towed from the hangar the bar disconnected.
The aircraft promptly rolled backwards, caught the stbd wing on the door and swung back into the shed trashing the right boom on the inner wall.
So, yes, Argosies CAN go backwards - ramp slope permitting :}

[ICM]

Brakedwell: By November 66, we were using the George Hotel in Manzini. I was in my first weeks on the squadron and only went that one time, with the trip ending by our pulling everyone out, but my impression was that it had been used by 105 crews on the Matsapa-Francistown resupply flights for some time beforehand. Certainly, others in the crew appeared familiar enough with the place. Which brings me to my last logbook souvenir (Bremersdorp was the name of the town till sometime in the early 60s, I think):

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc463/Old141Nav/8cea1d3a.jpg

[brakedwell]

That's the one, I stayed there about a dozen times and remember the Countess had a soft spot for Flight Engineers :eek::eek:

[alisoncc]

Heh, there's a movie on the box down here (Oz) tonight, all about you guys. Called Jason and the Argonuts. So who's Jason? :ok:

[brakedwell]

Heh, there's a movie on the box down here (Oz) tonight, all about you guys. Called Jason and the Argonuts. So who's Jason?

That has to be JW411. I am a loose nut :O

[JW411]

Well Tony Morris's beagle was called Jason and he had fairly prominent argonuts!

I can also confirm the George. I think the landlord's name was Earl.

Stompie's cousin was married to the Judge Advocate General in Manzini and we used to get invited round there followed by the casino after a few beers.

[ICM]

Brakedwell: I seemed to miss out on any aristocracy around the George during my visit - but still being fairly new in the business, I recall being much impressed when my beer at the Royal Irish Fusiliers' mess, well out in the bundu, appeared in a goblet presented by the father of Ensign someone-or-other some 200 years back. A quick bit of googling suggests the George is still there:

File:Ex Tum's George Hotel Manzini Swaziland.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ex_Tum%27s_George_Hotel_Manzini_Swaziland.jpg)

and that my logbook sticker is a museum piece:

The George Hotel - Bremersdorp Swaziland (luggage label) by Artist Unknown | Vintage Posters at International Poster Gallery (http://www.internationalposter.com/poster-details.aspx?id=UKL19366)

[brakedwell]

IIRC the George faced the road that ran from from Lourenco Marques to the SA border. Manzini was a small one horse town and the bar (colonial/public bar type) had a front door that opened on to road. I'm sure "King Freddie" was the local nickname for Ngwenyama Sobhuza II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobhuza_II_of_Swaziland) , who was a charming man.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/sedgwickjames/General%20Pics/210px-Bhuza.jpg

[JW411]

After one particularly heavy night, I rolled out of my room in the morning into the swimming pool feeling not very good. I think Graham Humberstone was already in there.

The waiter came along and looked at the pair of us with practiced eyes and disappeared. He came back with two glasses on a silver salver, charged with ice cold water and with two Alka Seltzers bubbling merrily away, and handed them down to us in the pool.

What service!

[JW411]

http://www.frpilot.com/Dad/XP411.JPG

XP411 at Masirah. This aircraft survives in the RAF Museum at Cosford. I'm not quite sure why, but I seem to remember that it was a bit of a dog.

http://www.frpilot.com/Dad/OOMA67.JPG

The wonderful, exotic and luxuriant Masirah. I was reliably informed that there were two trees in the centre of the island.

What I do remember was the door in the Officers Mess which was marked "TV Room". In those days, it simply was not possible to receive TV signals of any sort in this part of the world.

However, there was always some visiting dumbo who saw the sign, opened the door and then fell three feet downwards into the bundu!

Incidentally, the cross runway was a natural surface runway. It was looked after with huge care by the lads and it was like a billiard table. Some time after I left the Argosy and had gone on the Belfast we arrived one day with a hell of an easterly wind blowing. My captain was a wonderful chap called Colin Bond and I persuaded him that we could easily land on the easterly strip (07 I think).

The tower were a bit surprised but they cleared us to land and asked that we kept the use of reverse thrust to a minimum. Well, we landed very happily on our high pressure tyres and didn't use an ounce of reverse.

Did any of you out there also ever land a Belfast on a bundu strip?

[Fareastdriver]

Somebody told me in the early sixties that the Sheik of Wherever was short of a few readies and offered to sell Masirah to the British Government. They turned it down, renting it instead.

[Basil]

Wasn't there a chap in Masirah who assiduously tended his little walled garden until, one day, someone left the gate open and the local deer thingy got in and scoffed the lot :sad:

[JW411]

http://www.frpilot.com/Dad/Salalah.JPG

This is what Salalah looked like at the end of 1966.

http://www.frpilot.com/Dad/Salalah Airfield.JPG

Salalah Airfield

Strangely enough, Salalah suffered (suffers) from a local monsoon from May until about September. (If anyone is really interested, I will do my best to explain the phenomenon). It meant that getting into Salalah was not easy. Because of the terrain, it meant that an approach could only be made from the south on to the 35 strip with a tailwind.

The best time to get in during the monsoon was around 1400 in the afternoon (period of maximum heating) when the cloud base might just rise high enough to make a landing possible.

The best approach aid available was an ACR7 (PAR without a glideslope). It was quite usual to break out of the low cloud over the sea at around 300 to 400 feet and then have to go through at least one other layer before finally breaking out at "a rather low altitude".

When it was really bad, we had the additional help of a couple of 44 gallon drums full of scrap fuel set into the bundu on finals and aligned with 35 which were set alight and gave us an orange glow and something to aim at.

The ATC controllers were brilliant and I particularly remember having total faith in Colin.

The airfield also had a published NDB approach procedure which always made me smile. It made it very, very clear that flying north of the NDB was forbidden (because of the jebel which went up to "several thousands of feet"). I could never work out how anyone could ever follow this procedure because, the only way you knew you had passed over the NDB was when the needles "dropped" and by then, you were already in mortal danger according to the plate!

I was quite fond of Salalah and I have lots of stories about the place.

http://www.frpilot.com/Dad/Raisut.JPG

Raisut is located about 10 miles west of Salalah. There was a fairly basic pier built there which allowed landing craft etc to land with supplies. In the monsoon season, the sea could get pretty rough and it was sometimes impossible for the landing craft to dock. Occasionally it was necessary for the vessel to move just to the south of Salalah and throw the 44 gallon drums of fuel over the side into the surf. Most of the drums would then wash up on the beach and be retrieved. Inshallah.

Greenpeace eat your heart out!

The JW Mecom Oil Company also had a strip at Raisut. It can be seen at "just below centre" in the photograph and it is interesting to note that it can still be seen on Google Earth. I've seen their C-82 there and it would be interesting to know if anyone ever landed an Argosy there.

[brakedwell]

I am certain no 105sqn Argosies landed at Raisut between August 1964 and August 1966.

[ICM]

We were talking about Dhala some time back. Herewith a view of the airstrip and the local architecture after dropping 8x1-ton containers to the South Arabian Army garrison that had just taken over IS duties from 45 Cdo RM, one of the signs that our departure from Aden was on the horizon, I guess. This was on 13 June 1967, with officers D'shire and Watkins sharing captaincy, I see.

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc463/Old141Nav/71633dcf.jpg

[zetec2]

The white building on top of the hill middle distance if memory serves me correctly is the Dhala Hotel, stayed there on many occasions, travelling up by Aden Airways DC3 for the weekend & many weekday stops, highlight used to be going on tour by local landrover and crew to the fort on top of Jebel Jehaf, also being able to walk down into Dhala village without any problems, life was a lot easier back in 62 - 64 before the troubles up country. Paul H.

[JW411]

Here are a couple of shots taken while supply dropping up-country in Aden.

http://www.frpilot.com/Dad/Aden1.JPG

http://www.frpilot.com/Dad/Aden2.JPG

The next one was taken on a dawn drop at Mukeiras. The blue smoke from the smoke flare on the DZ can be seen just to the left of the strip. There wasn't much wind!

http://www.frpilot.com/Dad/Mukeiras.JPG

[parabellum]

When flying for Gulf Air we used to take the BAC1-11 to Salalah, (1976/7), over the top at 20,000', turn outbound over the sea, gear down, speed brakes out, descend to 10,000', turn inbound and hope to break cloud before minimums, on a left base for R/W 17. Became much more civilised later when the new airfield opened, after the rebels had been removed from the hills!

[JW411]

"Became much more civilised later when the new airfield opened, after the rebels had been removed from the hills".

Indeed so, removing the rebels from the hills was a bit of a problem. The buggers used to come down the hill at night and launch all sorts of nastiness at the airfield.

Our defensive positions were north of the airfield and locally known as porcupines. (A more universal word would be sangars).

I got involved one night with a reinforcement flight from Bahrain. The Salalah guys had been in the porcupines fighting the unclean for 48 hours and had taken casualties which needed casevacing and they needed help.

I arrived at 0300 (in the monsoon season) with the reinforcements and set about the usual ACR7 approach with the oil drums alight. I was told that the airfield was still under fire but they had sent a Ferret Scout Car out to protect us while we landed.

Well, we finally came out of the last cloud layer at around 75-100 feet on 35 with a tail wind and threw the old girl on the ground.

Very shortly afterwards, I picked up the Ferret Scout Car in the landing lights and it was parked right on the intersection of 35/17 and 22/04!!!!!!!!

It was the shortest landing that I ever did in an Argosy. I would not have been the slightest surprised if the booms had come over the top. The commander of the Scout Car came from the Indian Sub Continent and he had figured that he would have the maximum defensive effect if he parked in the middle of the airfield!

As best as I can recall, we had to change two wheels as a result and we had to do it ourselves since everyone else was "already occupied".

It might be of interest to some of you out there to know that the old Sultan of Muscat and Oman made his exit from his country by courtesy of an Ardet Argosy. One of my friends brought him out.

Said Ibn Taimur was a very old fashioned ruler and he could see little reason to get his domain out of the 14th Century. His son, Qabus (Qaboos), was sent to UK for an education which culminated in a course at Sandhurst.

The young man could see that his country needed to join the 20th century pretty quickly and, one day, he went down to Salalah to confront his father (no doubt with the encouragement of the PRPG (Political Representative Persian Gulf) - (who was second only in the Foreign Office hierarchy to our man in Washington).

My mate turned up at Salalah in full casevac role on 23 July 1970 and asked "where are the casualties"?

"They haven't happened yet", was the answer!

Finally, an ambulance appeared, the casualty was loaded and off they went to Bahrain. The casualty was Said Ibn Taimur, Sultan of Muscat and Oman. His son had given him an ultimatum and the old man had responded by pulling a revolver and had then shot himself in the foot!

He was casevaced to Bahrain by Argosy, then medivac Britannia to Akrotiri and then transferred to a VC-10 to Lyneham for Wroughton Hospital.

The Foreign Office put him in a nice stately mansion in Surrey.

He died in 1972 and is buried in Woking.

Young Qubus took over and has so far done a great job of getting his country into the modern world.

[brakedwell]

I met the old Sultan Said Ibn Taimur when I flew 5 Muscat bigwigs to Salalah in a Pembroke.We landed shortly after SOAF's first pair of Beavers arrived from Aden. The Sultan was there to inspect his new toys and when he was invited to take a short flight in one of the brand spanking new Beavers he declined the offer as it only had one engine. He added, but if he ever went to Muscat he was prepared to travel in a Pembroke.
What he didn't know was that the biggest and wealthiest building contractor in the country (Indian Sub Continental) had spent most of the flight from Muscat locked in the toilet, courtesy of a stiff sliding door with a flimsy handle that came off in his hand!

[JW411]

So, how many times were you taxiing out for take off when ATC came up and told you that they had just found "another passenger" and would you mind waiting on the taxiway while they sent said passenger out in a Land-Rover?

Happened to me on a noteable event at Salalah (TBN).

One of my colleagues was doing the RSM. Taxiing out from Masirah heading for Salalah came the call. "We have just found another passenger". So Tony stopped on the taxiway and got the ALM to open the front crew door and so it was that young Sultan Qabus got on board and was whisked (a slow whisk) to Salalah.

He had come down from Bait al Falaj in a SOAF Caribou and couldn't face continuing to Salalah in it.

This was probably the first and only time that a Ruler of a Country chose an Argosy as the fastest and most painless transport available!

[Cornish Jack]

Off topic for the 'Wheelbarrow' but the Salalah tales can include one from the '50s. OC Salalah was a Flt Lt who was determined to make a name for himself - Pay Parades, full uniforms, block inspections etc. ... unheard of in these stations in the boonies. One of our Captains was posted in as 2 i/c on a punishment posting having dallied too closely with a Senior's lady!! He found the regime not to his liking and soon after his arrival, a farewell thrash was organised for a National Service chap. Said 2 i/c was closely involved in the planning and ensured his OC was present. Drink was taken - in considerable quantity and OC departed the scene in non-combatant mode.
Came the morn and CO with humungous hangover woke in the dark - strange 'cos it was well past dawn!! Investigation revealed that his windows and door had been filled in with mud bricks and cement. Took a while for recovery to commence and complete, during which time he was able (painfully) to contemplate his pride and joy - a VAST handlebar 'tache which had been reduced to one side only!
We arrived on the R S M some week or so later and, on first radio contact, the Tower strongly advised that we should not stare at the CO when he came out to meet us. Very strange, until we opened the door to be confronted by this odd looking chap with the normal near-black suntan set off nicely by a pristine, naked and stark white upper lip!! Our involuntary laughter did not sit well with him and he left without any of the usual pleasantries. His career thereafter took an even steeper nosedive on return to K'sar and the peaceful world of the 'route stations' returned to Salalah.

[JW411]

Grasshoppering a little bit; in 1963 we had a pretty large mock war in Libya (which is great contryside in which to have a war - as Rommell and Monty discovered).

This "war" was called Exercise Triplex West and it went on for a couple of months and was mainly based in El Adem.

Now, I have a hundred stories about Triplex West but just for now, we are talking moustaches here.

There were about several thousand of us under canvas on the extreme west of El Adem airfield and we had about three showers between us. It would fair to say that morale was not great and would have been non-existent had it not been for the ready supply of Slops and Amstel.

And so it was that one wag on 267 Sqn suggested that we had a moustache-growing contest. There would prizes of usually, a gin and tonic, for the bushiest, the longest, the most aesthetically pleasing etc. The one thing was that we had to keep our moustaches intact until we got back to base at Benson.

Now, unbeknown to us, our CO had decided that since most of his squadron had gone off to North Africa for a couple of months and he was at home, then that would be the perfect time for him to grow a moustache!

Can you imagine his reaction when he met his six crews and aircraft back at Benson coming back from the "war" and every single man got off with a ridiculous moustache!!!!!

It really was an innocent happening but I don't think he ever got away from thinking that we were all taking the piss.

[JW411]

Could well be.