Are you Legeal to fly? (ASIC/AVID)

[fatboywings]

Hi Everyone,

I am currently going through the mine field of paperwork for the issue of my PPL. I have stumbled across something that is slowing my application down.

I have to have a valid Aviation Secuirty Status Check, as per legislation. My question to you all is,

Whom has a current Aviation Security Status Check?

ie CASA says, "you are required to have a valid ASIC or AVID to exercise the privledges of a flight crew licence"

I know of quite a number of people that are flying and would be surprised to learn that they are not flying legally and there fore are not insured, due to an expired ASIC.


Now this is the kicker, as per CASA's application form's for both ASIC and AVID, sections 7 and 6 respectively is the sign off for the Aviation Security Status Check. Both section are exactly the same. However your ASIC cards Aviation Security Status check is valid for 2 years and the AVID is 5 years.

In Short, If you are flying with an expired ASIC, you are flying illegally.

My question to both Infrastructure and CASA is, if both sections of the application forms 498 and 499 for AVID and ASIC are exactly the same, it would stand to reason that if you have been issued either a AVID or ASIC in the last 5 years that you have a valid Aviation Security Staus Check. Obviously with an expird ASIC you can not enter security controlled areas without a VIC, but, surely you can excercise flight crew licence priveledges. CASA SAYS NO!

After completing my test on the 19th December last year, my application has been rejected a second time, i have been told. The first application was sent back to the wrong State and there is now no sign of the second application. On top of this i am having to wait an additional month or 2 for casa to do the Aviation Security Status Check.

I guess the funniest thing of all is, I own my own bloody aircraft and quite frankly if i was a notorious peron wanting to do harm to the general public, would i really bother applying for a licence in the first place?


Bloody ID and Licences. In the real world a Drivers Licence is ID, in Aviation fairy land you need to carry your Licence and your Aviation ID, just my rant. Thanks
Ben

[VH-XXX]

You have a good point. I'm on an expired ASIC at the moment and with the time it sometimes takes to get it renewed, many would be operating illegally unless they renew months before. It would seem logical that you should be able to use an expired ASIC "as" an AVID, but CASA are not logical.

you are required to have a valid ASIC or AVID to exercise the privledges of a flight crew licence

That pretty much sums it up really!

[poteroo]

So, when Joe Bloggs from East Blackstump Stn shows up for a BFR in his well cared for, well maintained, and well insured 1958 172, we insist that he shows us a current ASIC/AVID?? He really needs this to do the stock & windmill checks!

happy days,

[fatboywings]

vh-xxx
If you have already been issued your flight crew licence and your asic or avid expires, to exercise your flight crew priv. then you only need to submit the application, you do not need to wait for the new card to arrive. However, for the initial issue, be it spl gfpt or ppl, you must have a current and valid Aviation Security Status ie AVID or ASIC.

poteroo
I know it sounds crazy, but if J Bloggs does not have a current Aviation Security Status Check then he was abusing his rights of his flight crew licence. J Bloggs is not allowed to operate the aircraft in Australia with out the Security Check been valid. however, J Bloggs can do 5 hours with RAA and convert to RAA and fly/maintain his new aircraft after selling his 1958 c172, no problems. No wonder GA is Dieing.

[aussie027]

VH-XXX,

Just wanted to say I just renewed my ASIC late Jan.
From the day I posted App til it arrived back at PO was 9 days total. That includes mailing to/from Perth. Pretty slick I thought.:ok:

[notjustanotherpilot]

I'm wondering just how many people have actually ever had to use theirs.
In all the time I have had my AVID I have NEVER been asked for it and at a couple of places where I was fully expecting to be asked for some or any identification I wasn't. The places are all airports both primary and secondary. The primary ones I was fully expecting to be asked for ID as they tend to do (as a passenger) when I fronted the check in counters to check in baggage (I had already checked in online or at a do-it-yourself position in the check in hall) and the secondary one was when gaining airside access and needed to call one of the mobile security persons to open a gate for me to get in.
I am of the opinion that these alleged security measures are nothing more than a revenue raising rort and do absolutely nothing what so ever.

[bankrunner]

Mate, it's security theatre. Nothing more.

Note well how even the USA, the home of Sep 11, with their water bottle paranoia and nudie scanners, never bothered with the likes of an ASIC.

I've waited up to 2 months in the past, and at the time I was a Commonwealth public servant and held a fairly high level security clearance so it can't have been too hard to figure out that I was of half decent character.

[Biggles_in_Oz]

From the day I posted App til it arrived back at PO was 9 days total. That includes mailing to/from PerthYup.. security-theatre, empire-building, job-security, tissue-thin justification, political-arse-covering, 'show me your papers' totalitarianism is what the ASIC/AVID 'security' checks are really all about.

[fatboywings]

I was of the opinion that we actually adopted the ASIC crap from the USA, however, after trying to plan implementation they actually realised it was an unworakable system. CASA apparantly then picked up the ball and are still running.

[YPJT]

My understanding is that you need at least a valid AVID to fly an aircraft but an ASIC if you intend to fly to a security controlled airport.

Fatboywings
If you have already been issued your flight crew licence and your asic or avid expires, to exercise your flight crew priv. then you only need to submit the application, you do not need to wait for the new card to arrive. Do you have a reference for that infor?

I agree the whole thing is a joke and it is only getting worse. Remember we are staring down the barrel of enhanced screening (read body scanners) for RPT flights.

You might well get away with flying without a valid AVID / ASIC but run the gauntlet at your own peril. An offence against the ATSA and ATSRs might make your subsequent applications a little more difficult.

CASA had nothing at all do do with the introduction of the ASIC system. That honour went to the then DOTARS, now Dept of Infrastructure and Transport. CASA were an issuing body along with about 175 other security controlled airports and specific industry participants. They did however cock up the process better than most.

[djpil]

Do you have a reference for that infor?On the CASA website.
One of my friends asked some-one in CASA about that and the answer was he didn't know who put it on the website and didn't know the legal basis for it.

[VH-XXX]

Conceivably that would mean that you could have a 2 year expired card, submit the app (keep receipt number if there is one) and then use your old ASIC. Given that your card isn't processed until you send off your credit card details you could choose to not send off the credit card form etc and still be legal. Wouldn't like to try to use an expired card when that situation can exist.

[YPJT]

VH-XXX,
having a receipt to say you have applied for a new ASIC does not mean you have a valid security clearance. An ASIC is the only approved proof that a security background check has been conducted. Therefore an airport cannot legally allow you to have unescorted access airside.

I had a situation where a guy came all the way from the UK on a flying holiday with his family and turned up with an AVID. I just escorted him and his family to and from the aircraft before sending them on to be someone elses problem. :O

Apparently he did the right thing and inquired with CASA as to whether or not he needed an ASIC for his certificate of validation in Australia. They said no which is half correct. They forgot to mention the bit about the requirement for airside access at security controlled airports.

An ATO recently was at Perth airport and unfortunatley had a just expired ASIC. Getting a visitor card to go airside to the aircraft was like pulling teeth.

[Chu Mai Huang]

Janda, er, YPJT...
Reg 6.55 2 (b)

6.55 Exercise of privileges of flight crew licences etc

(2) Subject to subregulation (4), a person who is over 18, and
holds a security designated authorisation, must not perform a
duty that is essential to the operation of an aircraft while the
aircraft is in Australian territory unless:
(a) his or her aviation security status check is current; or
(b) he or she has requested an aviation security status check.:ok:

And readers, these are nothing to do with CASA regs:eek:, they are the
Aviation Transport Security Regulations 2005.
was DOTARS, now Dept of Infrastructure is it?
Another Dept of changing names.:(

[fatboywings]

Chu Mai Hung, YPJT and VH-XXX

Firstly thnkyou Chu Mai Hung for answering that call by YPJT and XXX. Secondly you are completely correct in saying that it is Aviation Transport Security Regulations 2005 that is now under the legislative control of the Dept of infrastructure.

However, my arguement is with CASA's interpretation of the legislation. Specifically the requirement for a valid Aviaiton Security Status Check. NB that both form 498 and 499 for AVID and ASIC has exactly the same wording for sections 6 and 7 for the agreement of the Aviation Security Status Check and both have exactly the same ID requirements. Now my point.

Section (3)
6.55 Exercise of privileges of flight crew licences etc
(3) For paragraph (2) (a), a person’s aviation security status check is current at a particular time if:
(a) it was carried out no more than 5 years before that time; or
(b) he or she has requested that a new check be carried out; or
(c) within the previous 2 years, he or she underwent a background check for the issue of an ASIC.

further more


6.57 Flight crew licences etc — requirements in relation to issue
1 (c) an aviation security status check has shown that the person does not have an adverse criminal record; and
and
(3) In the case of a person who holds an ASIC that is less than
2 years old, CASA may issue the authorisation to him or her despite anything in subregulation (1).

MY QUESTION TO CASA
If the Aviation secutrity check is valid for 5 years but my asic expired less than five years, thus, leaving me with a valid Aviation security status but no ASIC, why can't i have my licence?

What are your thoughts?

Kind Regards
Ben

[VH-XXX]

VH-XXX,
having a receipt to say you have applied for a new ASIC does not mean you have a valid security clearance. An ASIC is the only approved proof that a security background check has been conducted. Therefore an airport cannot legally allow you to have unescorted access airside.


Don't put words in my mouth thanks. I was referring to a hypothetical situation hence the word "conceivably."

[YPJT]

Chu Mai,
I see your point and I guess that based on that, you could still fly an aircraft by producing some evidence of having applied for an ASIC.

Access to get to or from your aircraft (assuming it is security controlled) however is a different matter.

3.15 Requirements for airside generally
(3) The responsible aviation industry participant for the airside
area of the airport must ensure that the area can be entered only
by:
(a) a person authorised to do so who:
(i) properly displays a valid ASIC; or
(ii) properly displays a valid VIC and is supervised by
someone authorised to enter the area who properly
displays a valid ASIC; or
(b) an exempt person; or
(c) a vehicle driven by:
(i) a person who is authorised to enter the area and
who:
(A) properly displays a valid ASIC; or
(B) properly displays a valid VIC and is
supervised by someone authorised to enter
the area who properly displays a valid ASIC;
or
(ii) an exempt person; or
(d) a person who:
(i) holds a ticket for carriage on an aircraft that will
take its passengers on board through the airside area;
and
(ii) is moving reasonably directly from the terminal exit
to the aircraft, under the supervision of the aircraft
or airport operator, for the purpose of boarding; .....

[YPJT]

Don't put words in my mouth thanks. I was referring to a hypothetical situation hence the word "conceivably."
And I believe I answered your hypothetical.

Fatboywings,
If you still have a valid AVID, the way I read the CASA page is that you can still fly. Just not to a security controlled airport.

[neville_nobody]

Yup.. security-theatre, empire-building, job-security, tissue-thin justification, political-arse-covering, 'show me your papers' totalitarianism is what the ASIC/AVID 'security' checks are really all about.

Yep the best bit about the ASIC is that the information isn't even held by the government they actually farm it out to a third party to administer and they have all the personal information on you.

If the ASIC card is so important why isn't it a valid form of ID? When you apply for a passport, government/army/civil service identity cards etc are valid forms of ID, yet an ASIC cannot be used to validate your ID. Therefore what the hell is it good for if the government won't even accept it as a appoved form of identification?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

All of which just goes to show what an ABSOLUTE FARCE this whole exercise is!!!

Yes, I have one - it is 'required' for what I do.

However, I must admit, I have never tried to use it as a form of 'ID' for a PASSPORT or whatever.....only my Driver's Licence, My Gas bill, my Electricity bill, the signature of a person I don't even know.....think local 'JP'...

And we all pay this 'Private Organisation' in a 'remote' NSW Country Village,
for the privilege....

Excellent Post Mr Neville.........I had never thought about it like this before....

Now, who IS my local member...??

Cheers:ok::ok:

[Advance]

Of course it is a total charade; everything CASA is involved in is just for show. Why, I am sure some people have put Mickey Mouse over their photo and still gained access to aeronautical sites,

[rioncentu]

And check out all the pimply faced kids behind the counter at Maccas at the Airport. All got ASIC's.

It's making $$$$$$ zillions for someone.

And what does it do???

yes you can't even use an ASIC as a valid form of ID when transferring aircraft rego :ugh::ugh:

[VH-XXX]

Hey, don't knock the ASIC card, it's saved me $10 already by not having to pay foreign currency exchange fee at Travelex at the airport. Admittedly I was probably shafted and probably only got .80 US$ for my Aussie but 10 bucks is 10 bucks!

[bankrunner]

Actually, that is the one thing the ASIC is good for. Staff discounts at food outlets and shops at SY, ML etc when flying as SLF :ok:

[YPJT]

Advance,
Have a read the last part of Chu Mai Huang's post. CASA do not administer the regulations pertaining to ASICs or anything else in relation to the Aviation Security Act or Regs. That honour belongs to the Office of Transport Security within the Dept of Infrastructure and Transport.

Yes you could maybe put a photo of your favourite cartoon character on your ASIC and perhaps get away with it, but rest assurred, that is a specific also.

Griffo,
I wouldn't be too hard on the private organisaton/s that issues some of the ASICs. The alternative was to leave it with the likes of CASA and their piss poor perfomance as an issuing body is already well reported.

We all hate them but we are stuck with them. I can't see it changing any time soon.

[VH-XXX]

I've had the same photo for the last 2 ASIC cards. I'm waiting to see if they notice that with my latest application that it's the same picture! I think it says it's supposed to be within 3 months currency.

[adzA]

Actually, that is the one thing the ASIC is good for. Staff discounts at food outlets and shops at SY, ML etc when flying as SLF :ok:Sorry to re-raise a slightly old thread - but is this true? If I'm traveling through major airports (Domestic or International) - am I able to receive discounts by flashing my ASIC?

I'd love to see the ASIC go too. I agree with the others that it's a complete waste of time, money and resources. It would be nice if AOPA, the union, or any other body would consider some sort of petition to reverse it.

In the mean time though, I'd really like to learn how this card could be useful in any way at all? (Besides meeting a completely useless legal requirement).

[mcgrath50]

Usually airport shops will give discounts to staff working in the airport including travelling crew. Reportedly many of the kids working at the coffee shops, newsagents etc. don't check for much more proof of working there than an ASIC but it's not really meant for anyone just passing through with an ASIC.

I haven't gotten up the courage to try it yet :p

[notjustanotherpilot]

All this talk about the ASIC, I think the AVID is even more useless if that's possible. As stated earlier I have never once been asked for ID and I have gone airside at a secondary unaccompanied much more than once since their implementation. As to the rest of my flying and from where I do it (a farm strip) I would be extremely surprised if anyone was to ask for any ID at anytime. Whether I have a valid one or not is not going to make one iota of difference as to how safe I am or how competent a pilot I am.

[PyroTek]

I once had it hanging out and was asked if I worked at the airport... I'm very honest so I said no, and got no discount. :ugh::cool:

[Ando1Bar]

I'm surprised you were not arrested for letting it hang out like that in public...:E

No wonder they thought you were a pilot.

[Blueyonda]

G.A.

What does it cost for an ASIC?

The fees below apply as of 1st July 2007.


Under 18 ASIC – no security check – $102
Note: ASIC will be valid for 6 months after 18th birthday
Initial ASIC – full security check required $196
ASIC renewal – $186

REF: HERE (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_90103#id3285750684)

RAA Initial ASIC Application $160.00
Renewal of ASIC Application $160.00
REF: HERE (http://www.raa.asn.au/docs/admin/price_list.pdf)

Why the price difference?

[YPJT]

Why the price difference?
Probably because that due to the volume of applications being processed, staff are actually employed at places like Aviation ID Austraia. I'm sure the RAA would soon follow suit if they were all of a sudden inundated with applications from every man and his dog.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Recently had a CASA issued ASIC show up for one of our studes, a gentleman in his fifties of caucasian descent....
They had his name and ARN right, but the photo on the card was of another gentlemen who looked to be around early twenties and of middle eastern or perhaps indian appearance.

Oh how we laughed.

:D :ugh: