Wikileaks-gawd bless

[glad rag]

Obama you are a disturbed individual.

WikiLeaks cables: US agrees to tell Russia Britain's nuclear secrets - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8304654/WikiLeaks-cables-US-agrees-to-tell-Russia-Britains-nuclear-secrets.html)

[WPH]

Interesting article but may I suggest a more eloquent summation would be more appropriate glad rag!

I think we all realise that the 'special relationship' is completely a one-way street. I'm 'lucky' enough to work with the US on a daily basis and constantly witness their contempt for all 'foreign nationals'. However, our government continues to put us in an increasingly subservient position where we have no choice but to suck it up.

Bottom line, we don't have 300 million taxpayers contributing 20% of their GDP to Defence!

[Dengue_Dude]

Sadly, it's just further confirmation of what most of us know anyway.

I've despised successive US administrations for quite a few years, but they're actually no worse than ours.

Blair acting as a poodle to that moron Dubya abides in my memory and should forever shame Bliar . . . but it won't, because shame is not something politicians seem to respond to.

The sad fact they could reflect upon is that they carry the rest of us along, with very little choice.

Special relationship = Tell me when you can taste willow in the back of your throat.

[Pontius Navigator]

willow?

que?

[threeputt]

Cricket bat shoved up one's a£$e perhaps?

3P:ok:

[NURSE]

unfortunatley the START treat required the USA to give the russians figures on exactley how many trident missiles they produced and that included ours. Wonder if at a later date a US president will sacrifice our missiles as opposed to US ones?

[Dengue_Dude]

Thanks threeputt - exactly

[Trim Stab]

This is a non-story. The US has supplied our missiles and have ownership of that intelligence - they can give the intelligence to anybody they wish to. I suspect they told us before they handed over the information. If they didn't, the people on the JIC who have to worry about these sorts of things would have realised that it was a strong possibility.

It would be a different matter entirely if we had given the US some piece of intelligence over which we had "ownership", and the the US had then given that to the Russians.

[Lima Juliet]

I'm 'lucky' enough to work with the US on a daily basis and constantly witness their contempt for all 'foreign nationals'.

I too work daily with our US colonial cousins. I find then very easy to work with and if you put things in their terms and show some understanding of their rules, regulations and procedures it is amazing how helpful they can be. However, if you insist on being a stiff upper lip arrogant Brit then its amazing at how quickly the shutter doors will come down.

As for being a "one way street", no it isn't. We share, commonly fund and exploit many things within our common interests. Those "in the know" will know what I'm talking about.

Finally, we should remember that if it wasn't for our US cousins then we would probably be eating smoked sausages, wearing leather trousers and saying "Guttentag" whilst walking up and down Whitehall Strasse - for that I will be eternally grateful.

LJ :ok:

[Yamagata ken]

It was the USSR that beat Germany.

[Tourist]

No, it was us who beat them to the point that we no longer had to fear invasion, it was US/Russia that let us all invade Germany later on.
We would still be speaking english without them.

[WillDAQ]

That's what allies are for...

Now it's our turn.. lets pull out of AFG.

[cazatou]

Just to put the record straight - the USA did NOT declare War on Germany in World War 2. Adolf Hitler declared War on the USA in a speech to the Reichstag on 11 December 1941.

[Dengue_Dude]

Oh dear, here we go again . . .

[Lima Juliet]

Er chaps, I suggest that you bone up on "lend-lease" that the US offered us prior to their entry into the war - we couldn't have kept the sea-lanes open without them (Liberty Ships, Corvettes and LRPA Liberators) and well over 25% of the British Military's equipment was from the USA for North Africa, Italy, Normandy, Arnhem and Far East campaigns (Sherman Tanks, DC3 Dakotas, P-40 Tomahawks, Liberators, Catalinas, Jeeps, Lee-Grant Tanks, etc...).

Here's the idea of the ships:

Type # Class Years Country
Carrier BAVG 5 Long Island 1941-42 UK
Carrier CVE 29 Brogue 1942-43 UK
Cruiser (CL-5) 1 Milwaukee 1944 USSR
Coast Guard Cutter 10 Lake/Chelan 1941 UK
Weather Patrol (WAG) 3 Wind 1945 USSR
Destroyer (DD) 50 Wicks,Clemson 1940 UK
Destroyer Escort (DE) 46 Buckley UK
Destroyer Escort (DE) 8 Cannon,Evarts Brazil,China
Frigate (PF) 27 Tacoma USSR
Gunboat (PG) 10 Corvette
Patrol Craft (PC) 44 PC-461 FR,USSR
Sub Chaser (SC) 142 SC-497 FR,USSR
Mine Sweepers (AM) 35 Admirable USSR
Motor Torpedo Boat (PT) 185 several USSR
Submarines (SS) 9 R-,S-boats 1941 UK
Oilers (AOG) 3 Halawa France
Liberty Ships ?of 2,710 UK
Landing Ships 35 LST UK, Greece

Plus, the "lend lease" for the Soviets was immense - some 18,700 aircraft for starters (about 20% of all their military aircraft) :eek:

So no, the Soviets did not win the war - we all did, but without the US I doubt whether the UK and Soviet Union would have managed.

LJ

[DERG]

Leon

Don't you know that the UK taught the USA how to dog fight and it was the Royal Navy (Kinloss) who established the Top Gun school?

:=

[Lima Juliet]

DERG

Err, I think you mean RNAS Lossiemouth. Anyway, to what you refer to is most likely incorrect if you're thinking of Rowland White's book, here's why:

One British writer erroneously claimed that the early school was influenced by a group of a dozen flying instructors from the British Fleet Air Arm, who were graduates of the Royal Navy's intense Air Warfare Instructors School in Lossiemouth, Scotland. However an earlier incarnation of TOPGUN, the U.S. Navy Fleet Air Gunnery Units, or FAGU, provided air combat training for Naval Aviators from the early 1950's until 1960, when a doctrinal shift, brought on by advances in missile, radar and fire control technology, contributed to the belief that the era of the classic dogfight was over, leading to their disestablishment. The pilots who were part of the initial cadre of instructors at TOPGUN had experience as students from FAGU.

Anyway, I should think the US would be most insulted by the UK trying to claim that "the UK taught the USA how to dog fight". Have a think about the following US aces with their kills - are you claiming that we taught them?

WWI

Edward V. Rickenbacker, 26
S. C. Rosevear, 23
William C. Lambert, 22
Frederick W. Gillette, 20
John J. Malone, 20
Alan M. Wilkinson, 19
Frank Luke, 18
Frank L. Hale, 18

WWII

Richard I. Bong, 40
Thomas McGuire, 38
David McCampbell, 34
Francis "Gabby" Gabreski, 28
Robert S. Johnson, 28
George Preddy, 27
Charles MacDonald, 27
Joseph Foss, 26

And don't forget, they started late in both wars! :ok:

Sadly, you have displayed, just the type of "Brit arrogance" that I refered to in my first post - OK, for a bit of banter, but that is all. :=

LJ

[Tourist]

Leon

yes we bought lots of weapons from the US

Yes they nearly bankrupted us.

I hardly think that makes them helpful

Joining in at the start or giving free would have been nice........

[Two's in]

Ignoring the perennial "my dad's bigger than your dad" squabbling here, there is a great quote in the article;

While the US and Russia have long permitted inspections of each other’s nuclear weapons, Britain has sought to maintain some secrecy to compensate for the relatively small size of its arsenal.

If that's not a euphemism then I've never seen one.

[DC10RealMan]

In referring to Britains contribution to both world wars once should remember who was with us from day one ie: countries such as Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa, India and all the other countries of the Commonwealth.
The USA was neutral (officially) until December 1941 and the USSR was allied with Nazi Germany until the invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941.

[XV277]

Surely the key point is that whilst Obama gives the Russians details of the total number of missiles we have, they have not told the Russians how many are deployed and how many warheads are fitted to those?

So a boat could be at sea with anywhere between 1 and 16 missiles and an undisclosed number of warheads fitted to each.

[Lima Juliet]

Tourist

yes we bought lots of weapons from the US

Yes they nearly bankrupted us.

I hardly think that makes them helpful

Joining in at the start or giving free would have been nice........

Have you ever read about what they did? Here's a good short version from Wiki:

There was no charge for the Lend Lease aid delivered during the war, but the Americans did expect the return of some durable goods such as ships. Congress had not authorized the gift of supplies after the war, so the administration charged for them, usually at a 90% discount. Large quantities of undelivered goods were in Britain or in transit when Lend-Lease terminated on 2 September 1945. Britain wished to retain some of this equipment in the immediate post war period. In 1946, the post-war Anglo-American loan further indebted Britain to the U.S. Lend-lease items retained were sold to Britain at 10% of nominal value, giving an initial loan value of £1.075 billion for the Lend Lease portion of the post-war loans. Payment was to be stretched out over 50 annual payments, starting in 1951 and with five years of deferred payments, at 2% interest. The final payment of $83.3 million (£42.5 million), due on 31 December 2006 (repayment having been deferred in the allowed five years), was made on 29 December 2006 (the last working day of the year).

Seems resonably generous to me!

LJ

[cazatou]

An American Pilot (Fg Off Carl Raymond Davis) took part in the first RAF attack on Germany in 1939 when Blenheims from 25 and 601 Sqn attacked the German Seaplane Base at Borkum.

601 Sqn subsequently re-equipped with Hurricanes and CR Davis was the 10th highest scoring Fighter Pilot in the Battle of Britain - at the cost of his life.

[GreenKnight121]

Lend-lease items retained were sold to Britain at 10% of nominal value,

Yes, those 10% charges were only for what you decided to keep.

Anything returned or destroyed was not charged at all!

Yes, we were so interested in profiting at Britain's expense, weren't we... we produced all those ships, aircraft, tanks, etc AT OUR OWN EXPENSE, and let you use them free of charge.

Then we only charged you for what you kept after it was all over.
Such greedy barstewards we are.


In referring to Britains contribution to both world wars once should remember who was with us from day one ie: countries such as Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa, India and all the other countries of the Commonwealth.


Yep... all countries ruled by King George VI.


The USA was not, so we were no longer subjects of His Majesty, nor required to follow the orders of #10 Downing.

Comments from Brits such as some have expressed in this thread leave me feeling that that small fact is forgotten, and that some Brits feel our failure to jump when Churchill spoke was an act of treason, not the decision of a free and independent nation.

[Dengue_Dude]

Isn't our only submarine stranded on a sandbank, or is that a different sort?

It's so hard to keep track of them both . . .

[SASless]

Odd how some interpret Lend Lease and other aid to the UK before, during, and after the War. Yes we were "late" to the battleground ashore but then we had no duty to defend the UK as we were not bound by Treaty to do so owing to our independence from European obligations such as the UK had. Both World Wars got started by mutual defense treaties that drew nations into the war.

I would suggest the Bankruptcy of the UK came not from Lend Lease but from the sheer cost of fighting a second World War so soon after the first one.....then compounded by having to defend a colonial empire while doing so.

Every time I hear a Brit say we were late to the fight....I recall the sinking of American Destroyers escorting convoys such as the USS Reuben James. I also think of my neighbor who flew Lancasters for Bomber Command and those like him.

If you find Lend Lease expensive....what of the alternative?

[Octane]

Uncle Sam would have had a 'largish' problem invading Europe if Britain, the Commonwealth countries, the Polish, Free French etc etc hadn't kept the Jerries at bay for more than two years. If the UK had fallen in the summer of 1940, where was the 8th AAF going to operate from 3 years later? Much of the lend lease stuff was obsolete sold for profit. I don't believe much in the way of USA aircraft operated during the BoB.To say the USA won WWII is absurd. It was a group effort......

RADAR technology-gift from the Brits
Jet Engine technology-ditto
Intercontinental Ballistic Miissile technology-thank the Germans for that...
Nuclear Weapons-Scientists from a dozen or more countries.......

[The Gorilla]

And let's not forget the American capture of the Enigma machine from a sub!! It must be true I saw it on a film...
:}

[cazatou]

Octane

1.The first German aircraft destroyed by the RAF in WW2 was a Dornier Do18 shot down by a Lockheed Hudson of 224 Sqn on Oct 8 1939.

2. A short list of aircraft types supplied by the USA to the RAF:-

Airacobra, Buffalo, Catalina, Liberator, Fortress, Mohawk, Tomahawk, Kittyhawk, Havoc, Boston, Dakota, Hudson, Ventura, Maryland, Baltimore, Marauder, Harvard, Mustang, Mitchell and Thunderbolt. In addition there were the gliders such as the Hadrian, Sentinel and Vigilant.

[cazatou]

The Gorilla

Are you referring to the "escapade" of the crew of HMS Bulldog on 8th May 1941?

[Wander00]

And I had the great privileg of knowing the Officer from HMS Bulldog who captured the Enigma from U 110, as he was a member of the yacht club of which I was Secretary for 10 years.

[draken55]

"A short list of aircraft types supplied by the USA to the RAF"

In addition to which the USA supplied Wildcats, Marylands, Kingfishers, Hellcats, Avengers and Corsairs to the Fleet Air Arm. In fact without US aircraft the Royal Navy would have been in a very sorry state in World War Two:ooh:

US shipyards repaired and refitted battle damaged carriers such as Illustrious and Formidable and supplied large numbers of Escort Carriers to the Royal Navy as well as the aircraft to fly from them.

[ormeside]

What about the training in America under the Arnold Scheme of pilots and navigators, for the RAF and RN, before the U.S. were in the war,and then, after Pearl Harbour, the BFTS'S, and the Tower's scheme all paid for by the US. In 1952 the Americans let us have fifty Neptunes whilst we in Coastal were waiting for more Shackletons. Do you honestly think that the Cold War would have been finished without the American effort ?. We certainly couldn't have managed it by ourselves. Just think how much it must have cost the American taxpayer to set up NATO> It nearly beggared us!!

[DC10RealMan]

Greenknight121 is not quite correct. Commonwealth countries such as Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa, Rhodesia all had independent administrations headed by a Prime Minister such as Mackenzie-King in Canada and Robert Menzies in Australia. The legacy of the Anglo-Boer war at the turn of the 20th Century left such an anti-British feeling in some parts of South Africa that it was a close run thing whether South Africa would join the British cause.
I would agree that India was subject to direct rule from London.
King George VI was the head of state of these countries such as Queen Elizabeth II is still the head of state of some of them today.

[billynospares]

Enough of the willy waving ! A huge amount of good men and women from all the allied nations paid the ultimate sacrifice for us and I for one will be eternally grateful and in thier debt :D

[Octane]

1. A Hudson shot down a Dornier? A bomber shot down a bomber... I thought it was a Hurricane based in Scotland that did the deed?

2. How many of those aircraft types you mention saw action pre December !941?

3. I forgot about Enigma and Bletchley Park. Thanks Mr. Gorilla.

4. Billynospares is on the money, end of the day, group effort by many...

Cheers..

[con-pilot]

How many of those aircraft types you mention saw action pre December !941?


Well at least one for damn sure, a PBY Catalina, it found the Bismark.

[draken55]

"How many of those aircraft types you mention saw action pre December 1941"

As well as the Catalina, the Boeing Flying Fortress, Douglas Havoc/Boston, Martin Baltimore, Curtiss Tomahawk and for the Navy the Grumman Martlet had all seen action before then.

[cazatou]

Octane

Your post 36

Airacobra, Buffalo, Catalina, Tomahawk, Havoc, Boston, Hudson, Maryland, Baltimore, Harvard, Mustang.

Mohawks were held in reserve as a last ditch reinforcement if the supply of Hurricanes and Spitfires dried up.

[Lima Juliet]

Just to show that things were happening between the US and the UK before 1941:

In 1938, the British Purchasing Commission sought an American maritime patrol aircraft and light bomber for the United Kingdom to support the Royal Air Force's Avro Anson. On 10th December 1938, Lockheed produced a modified version of the Lockheed Model 14 Super Electra which was a commercial airliner and the Hudson Mk I went into production. The Hudson was the first significant aircraft construction contract for the Lockhead Aircraft Corporation with the initial RAF order for 200 Hudsons far surpassed any previous order the company had received. By February 1939, Hudsons began to be delivered. A total of 350 Mk I and 20 Mk II Hudsons were supplied in total. These had two fixed Browning machine guns in the nose and two more in a Boulton Paul dorsal turret. Initially the first batch of Hudsons were supplied to No.224 Squadron RAF based at RAF Leuchers in May 1939. By the start of the war in September 78 Hudsons were in service. Not only did the RAF use the Hudson but the Hudson also served throughout the war with Coastal Command and was also used in transport and training roles as well as delivering agents into occupied France. They were also used extensively with the Royal Canadian Air Force wiht their anti-submarine squadrons. They were operated by RAF Special Duties squadrons for clandestine operations, with No.161 Squadron in Europe and No.357 Squadron operating in Burma.

Also, a Hudson of 224 Sqn from RAF Leuchars exchanged shots with a Luftwaffe Dornier 18 as early as 4 September 1939. But the first confirmed kill was as already stated 8 October 1940 by 224 Sqn again in a Hudson. They were a part of Coastal Command. Fighter Command's first kill was 16 October 1939 by a pair of Spitfires from RAF Turnhouse on a Luftwaffe JU88s that were attacking HMS HOOD at Rosyth.

When it came to realising how much I should appreciate the US sacrifice for fighting in Europe then it was this place that did it for me when I went there as a kid:

http://www.martleshamheath-rollofhonour.co.uk/assets/images/300px-Cambridge_American_Cemetery.jpg

This is near Cambridge and there are 3,812 US servicemen (mostly US Army Air Force) with the names of another 5,125 that are unaccounted for.

I state again, that I am grateful for the efforts of the US Forces in the past and also at present. Yes, some of our national objectives and aims may be slightly different, but the comradery that we share is 2nd to none and long may it continue.

LJ

[ARRAKIS]

Minor detail, regarding the first kill. On 20th September 1939, during a reconnaissance patrol over the enemy's front lines, a Fairey Battle from No. 88 Squadron shot down a Bf.109. The person actually responsible for this "kill" was Sergeant F Letchford, an air observer; he was flying in an aircraft piloted by Flying Officer LH Baker.
The Lockheed Hudson kill was the first German aircraft destroyed by a Royal Air Force aircraft operating from Britain.


Arrakis

[Lima Juliet]

Arrakis - thanks mate :ok:

[jwcook]

GreenKnight 121 wrote:-
Yes, those 10% charges were only for what you decided to keep.
Anything returned or destroyed was not charged at all!
Yes, we were so interested in profiting at Britain's expense, weren't we... we produced all those ships, aircraft, tanks, etc AT OUR OWN EXPENSE, and let you use them free of charge.

Then we only charged you for what you kept after it was all over.
Such greedy barstewards we are.

Er you might want to call lend lease by its proper name "Act to promote the defence of the United States"


This is where you sell materials and equipment to a third party to fight for your best interests, basically its like renting a hosepipe to your neighbour when his house is on fire, and then telling the street that your a top bloke for saving your neighbours house and he couldn't have done it without you and it was really cheap to rent it etc etc...



"Before Lend-Lease aid could begin, Britain was forced to sell all her commercial assets in the United States at a knocked down rate and turn over all her gold reserves. US president Franklin D. Roosevelt sent his own ship the Quincy, to Simonstown near Cape Town to pick up the last $50 million in British gold reserves."

Under this new agreement with the American Government, Britain was forced to not export any articles which contained Lend-Lease material or to export any goods—even if British-made—which were similar to Lend-Lease goods. The American Government sent officials to Britain to police these requirements. By 1944 British exports had gone down to 31% to the advantage of the US. Lend-Lease created problems in reviving Britain's exports after the war


Lend Lease is not as rosey a picture as many in the US paint.

Cheers

[Brian Abraham]

Just to clarify the Lend-Lease. Up until 11 March 1941 when it was signed into law by President Franklin D. Roosevelt (18 months after the war had started) Britain paid cold hard cash, as did the USSR. When the British began running short of money, arms and other supplies, Prime Minister Winston Churchill pressured President Franklin D. Roosevelt for American help. Sympathetic to the British plight but hampered by the Neutrality Acts, which forbade arms sales on credit or the loaning of money to belligerent nations, Roosevelt eventually came up with the idea of “Lend-Lease.” As one Roosevelt biographer has characterized it: "If there was no practical alternative, there was certainly no moral one either. Britain and the Commonwealth were carrying the battle for all civilization, and the overwhelming majority of Americans, led in the late election by their president, wished to help them." As the President himself put it, “There can be no reasoning with incendiary bombs.”

The American position was to help the British but not enter the war. In early February 1941 a Gallup poll revealed that 54 percent of Americans were unqualifiedly in favor of Lend-Lease. A further 15 percent were in favor with qualifications such as: "If it doesn't get us into war," or "If the British can give us some security for what we give them." Only 22 percent were unqualifiedly against the President's proposal. When poll participants were asked their party affiliation, the poll revealed a sharp political divide: 69 percent of Democrats were unqualifiedly in favor of Lend-Lease, whereas only 38 percent of Republicans favored the bill without qualification. A poll spokesperson also noted that, "approximately twice as many Republicans" gave "qualfied answers as...Democrats."

There was reverse Lend-Lease also. British supply of Spitfires and Mosquitos to the US being but two examples. At one point the value of New Zealands aid to the US (food) exceeded what the country was receiving in war materials.

[jwcook]

The reverse lend lease was quite a substantial sum, and to be honest you can only be hampered by the neutrality act if your trying to stay neutral. :hmm:


Cheers

[cazatou]

Arrakis

Thanks for that - the Battle was K 9243 of 88 Sqn.

On 14th May 1940 71 Battles of Nos 12, 103, 105, 150 and 218 Sqns attacked the German pontoon bridges at Sedan - 40 aircraft were lost.

[Brian 48nav]

Hi,back in the 80's we used to have a lovely old boy,provided you didn't sit on his seat at the bar, in our local in Dorset called Douglas Wilson.

Douglas had been a Sgt Pilot on Battles at the outbreak of war.By great good fortune he was back in Blighty on a course when the Blitzkrieg started. Most of his mates were killed. He went on to fly through-out the war ,finishing on Max Aitken's strike wing at Banff flying Beaufighters & Mosquitos (?) with such as Foxley-Norris,whom he referred to as Chris.

Douglas stayed for the full career finishing as Grp Capt in '71. Typical of the man he did not let on to his wife when diagnosed with cancer in his 80s.

[tornadoken]

Sovereign Commonwealth Nations: since the 1905-08 period, the "old" Nations have been Dominions, entirely sovereign. They chose a system where the Head of Govt. is elected, the Head of State appointed, and chose to appoint the person who is concurrently Head of State of UK, exercising his/her very limited authority through a local representative, the Governor-General. In recent years that has been a citizen of repute (the UK phrase is one of the great and the good). Of the "old" Commonwealth before 1947 only Newfoundland was in any way subordinate to London. It is incorrect to suggest that since 190X have, say, Canada, Oz, NZ, been "ruled" by anybody not elected by their citizens.

US Declarations, 1917, 1941: a democracy needs a "casus belli" recognised by most of its citizens, who will be doing the paying and dying. UK, amongst many others, is very lucky that the Kaiser and the Fuhrer pulled those triggers.

Lend/Lease: cash money from UK/France/Belgium, 1938- (UK: March,1941). Then the system of deferred settlement. Quite properly that had various constraints. It was settled in 1946 on a net basis, taking account of "Reverse". If I had been German in March,1941, I would have seen the Lend/Lease Act as a casus belli.