Dumb GA question (sorry!)

[jed_thrust]

I am wondering if anyone here can help me with a simple question (at least, I think it's simple...)

I would like to take say 6 blokes (total) to Birdsville (from Brissie). Needless to say none of us are really svelte anymore, but each one would be "normal" size, about 90kg.

What sort of aircraft would do the job well (but cheaply)? Speed is not an issue, neither is range (ie, we are happy to stop enroute). I guess like most things in GA, it will come down to dollars.

Now I know that more engines are always better, so I guess I am thinking a twin, but am also very happy to take advice.

[minimum_wage]

Cherokee 6?

[ContactMeNow]

Singles - C206/C210
Twin - Baron, C310

If you have the cash go a C402/PA31 - more room for the cases of beer :ok:

[apache]

shrike!(aerocommander)

[Skynews]

If your going for the races you will need sleeping gear.

Cheap, and private hire don't add up, BUT the cheapest, probably a C206 with bugger all gear and a few stops.

[TriMedGroup]

Shrike! (Fill the tanks in brissie, fill with people and bags and you shouldn't have to put any juice in at birdsville @ $3 a litre)

[jed_thrust]

Thanks for the quick replies. Yes, it's for the races - at least I've got a place to start my research now.

:ok:

[NZScion]

Don't think a 210 will give you much range with 6 90kg blokes and their gear...

[Tankengine]

Aztec, or what you are endorsed on.

[Hot High Heavy]

You'll struggle with 6 x 90kg+ blokes in a 206/210. You've got around 650 - 700kg to play with depending on BEW and MTOW. It'd be uncomfotable too, especially for the guys in the back row.

A Navajo would prob do it well although not sure of the cost of hire, maybe a Baron too.

[The Green Goblin]

A Navajo would prob do it well although not sure of the cost of hire, maybe a Baron too.

A PA31-350 yes, a PA31-310 no.

A Cessna 210, Baron etc all have a useful payload of around 500kg with a couple of hours FOB.

With 6 90kgs fellas and camping gear you'd be struggling big time.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

a PA31-310 no

?? Please explain GG.

Been a few years since I have flown one, but by my calculations the PA31-310 will do it - but not non-stop

Dr :8

[717tech]

PA31-310 would do it fine! Would probably need a fuel stop somewhere.

[On Track]

With regard to the title of your thread....

When I was doing my CPL theory at Sydney TAFE, one of my teachers used to say "the only dumb question is the one you don't ask" -- something I'll never forget.

[PA39]

Aztec, '31 or if u can find one AC500. Single......you'll be pushing it in a PA32 300 (6). You'll have to plan a refuell, but that doesn't matter cos you won't line up at Birdsville :uhoh:

[das Uber Soldat]

Shrike with long range (840 litre) tanks :ok:

(and 3 less mates :})

[sms777]

In my previous life I used to fly the ultimate aeroplane for the Birdsville races....a Queenair :ok:
6 big blokes with eskies and wardrobes, full tanks of fuel no need for fuel in Birdsville, only on the way back. 1000 litres of avgas, 170kts TAS, 160L/hr fuel burn.
You will never find one today though.....:sad:

[PyroTek]

I'm sure you could fit them all in a Beechjet or something :D:ok:

[Tinstaafl]

A PA31-310 will do it just fine. Especially if it has a VG kit to give an extra couple of hundred pounds TOW. Stopping for fuel along the way is sensible. There's a good chance it will be cheaper / L than at BDV. If you can't tanker enough to get to BDV and return to the refuel point then it will at least reduce the amount that must be uploaded at BDV - and it gives bladders a chance for relief. Especially if the beer is being tested for quality on the trip out.

Other types I'd consider: navajo, C401/402, Aztec, C310, BE58 Baron (but a bit squeezy), C206 & PA32. Maybe a C210 if they don't mind a cramped ride in the last row.

[Flyer517]

It's great if you have a pew up front, but I've done TRE-BK in the back row and it isn't what I would call remotely comfortable, even at that distance. And I'm 5'1" and 61kg. 2 x 90kg blokes back there? Forget it!

Great airplane though. :)

[Wally Mk2]

..........ah the good 'ole BDV races,good fun back in the days where stupid rules didn't ruin the whole experience.

'eocvictim' what you say could be true to some degree. By the amount of types being banded around here for use on such a trip & if usable/accessible by the writer then I too would be thinking why the need to ask when most of these types need someone whom knows what they are doing in the first place.
Still as has been said there are no dumb questions in aviation:)


Wmk2

[Checkboard]

A quick scratch-pad calculation (watch out for errors!)

Birdsville Airport, Birdsville, Queensland, Australia YBDV (BVI) notams.com (http://ybdv.notams.com/)

http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv20/Checkboard/Picture2-1.png

850 nm in one leg. For a Chieftain:

@ 170 knot TAS = 5 hours
@ 145 l/hr = 725 litres = 522 kg Trip Fuel
+ 10% = 808 litres
+45 mins = 917 litres = 660 kg Total Fuel

MLW = 3175 kg + 522 kg = 3697 kg (Burn limit check)
MTOW = 3342 kg <- which is lower, so MTOW limited.
Typical Basic = 2180 kg

Useful load = 1162 kg, less fuel (660 kg) = 502 kg

Which isn't enough load for you to do it in one leg, you'd have to refuel at Charleville:

Brisbane - Charleville, 400 nm.

@ 170 knot TAS = 2 hours 20 mins
@ 145 l/hr = 340 litres = 246 kg Burn
+ 10% = 373 litres
+45 mins = 482 litres = 347 kg Total Fuel

MLW = 3175 kg + 246 kg = 3431 kg (Burn limit check)
MTOW = 3342 kg <- which is lower, so still MTOW limited.
Typical Basic = 2180 kg

Useful load = 1162 kg, less fuel (347 kg) = 815 kg

6 Guys @ 90kg = 540kg
6 x 15 kg Bags = 90 kg

Which leaves 185 kg for a bit of spare fuel, and a few slabs of beer. :ok:
(Similar calculation for the leg to Birdsville, the leg is a touch longer.)

Edit: Dry hire, say, $480/hr for 10 hours = $4800
Fuel, say, $2/litre = $2900

Landing Fees: Birdsville $25 per person.
Charleville (twice)? Brisbane ($150 x2 if you're using the city airport!?)

So about $1300 per person (if you're not thinking of hiring a pilot as well.)

[eocvictim]

I've had to swing start enough aircraft to know when I'm being wound up. :ok:

I like his enthusiasm but not his chances. :}

[PyroTek]

Checkboard, last time my mate and I flew there, we had a nice westerly, slowing us by 25kts (or more). Keep that in mind also :ok: We were going to try Brisbane-YBCV-YBDV in one day, but not at 85-90kt! :ugh: Took us two days instead.

[Mainframe]

JED THRUST

Weight and balance will be your problem, but don't worry, CASA usually place staff on the ground at Birdsville and nearby refuelling stops.

These safety oriented staff will help you determine your max landing weight, your max take off weight, then help you decide on your options.

You may be better off with just 4 of you in a six place aircraft, even then, with fuel required,
baggage at 20 Kgs each, and beverages, sleeping bags, tarps etc you will find it tough.

I have made the Birdsville races in a C210 with 6 on board, but the weight meant a few fuel stops.
No problems with pax, more than two hours can be bladder busting anyway at times, especially on the way home.

As part of your planning, plan on being ramp checked at any landing point.
Then plan your weight and balance so you will not satisfy the basic needs of an FOI, which is to bust you.

Its not a matter of "will you get ramped", (you will) but where will you be ramped.