Emirates to take 14 aircraft in next fiscal year

[Netset]

By: Kurt Hofmann (Air Transport World)

Emirates Airline plans to take delivery of 14 new aircraft in its upcoming fiscal year beginning April 1, and retain four others it had planned to remove, owing to strong traffic demand. The carrier operates 15 Airbus A380s, a number that will grow dramatically as deliveries ramp up.

“We [will] start constant delivery of the remaining 75 A380s from September 2011,” Divisional SVP-Commercial Operations Worldwide Richard Vaughan told ATW in Dubai. He said the A380s are still a kind of marketing tool and that passengers will change their schedules to be able to fly on the aircraft. Two of the airline's 14 full flight simulators at its training facility in Dubai are dedicated to the type.

“The machine created a new landscape [for EK],” he observes. Vaughan confirmed that EK has no plans to install a different cabin configuration for high-density routes such as to India.

DXB suffers from capacity problems during peak hours. “It is a challenge for us to get our aircraft out on time,” he said. The strain should be eased somewhat when Concourse 3 is fully operational in 2013. It is dedicated to the A380 and will be capable of handling 25 of them at once. The Dubai government has not decided if and when EK will operate from the new Jebel Ali Airport, which is currently used by cargo airlines.

Commenting on the 2011 outlook, Vaughan said forward bookings are looking good but adds that "the price of fuel could be a problem if it rises to as much as $100 a barrel."

EK carried 27.5 million passengers in the 2009-10 fiscal year, 60% of them changing aircraft in DXB. South America is one of the areas where EK believes there is scope for further expansion, but no definite routes or dates have been announced. It currently serves Sao Paulo Guarulhos. Copenhagen will become EK's 27th European destination when it launches Aug. 1. The city of Basra, Iraq, became its 110th destination Feb. 2. EK will add a tenth daily flight to Australia in October, increasing the number of weekly offered seats Down Under from 22,000 to 25,000 in each direction.

"When we open a new destination in Europe, we need to add capacity in places such as the Far East and Africa to balance the network,” Vaughan explained.

[Wizofoz]

The strain should be eased somewhat when Concourse 3 is fully operational in 2013.

How will that help?

The problem is not enough runways to land on, not gates to park at.

Now SIMOPS on the other hand.....

[Number2]

Maybe it would help if so many arrivals weren't scheduled to land at the same time!

[Wizofoz]

Yes, but as a hub, having "waves" of arrivals and departures is essential to allow reasonable connection times.

Still, making schedules that just don't work because the Airport simply doesn't have the capacity to handle the numbers makes no sense either....

[BlueSkye]

The Dubai government has not decided if and when EK will operate from the new Jebel Ali Airport, which is currently used by cargo airlines.

My current monthly bowel movements is more than DWC's aircraft movements.

[Payscale]

Diarrhea?:}

[BlueSkye]

Using Jebel Ali's traffic count as a yardstick, I would say constipation. Every time I drive past there I try to picture a white elephant.

[BigGeordie]

So we have one airport that is clogged up beyond belief to the extent that almost nothing leaves on time and 50km up the road the world's biggest airport is under construction, with 5 runways and who knows how many terminals.

Hmmmm, there must be a solution here somewhere but I can't quite see it. Let me think about it.:ugh:

[ruserious]

think you might find that there is no cash flow to finish the airport properly

[woofer]

Apart from parking spaces, would they find enough pilots to man these planes by the time of their arrival?

[Payscale]

There are enough White Elephants around here. Actually most of the stuff south of town sold by Nahkeel...

[InnocentBystander]

The airports aren't the bottle necks, it's the airways. Oman, Bahrain and Iran simply do not have the airspace capacity to sustain EK, EY and QR at the stated growth, i.e. ordered Aircraft. It's only one of them.

So we have one that's insanely profitable, two that're not but have (almost) unlimited cash behind them.

Let's see which one makes it...

[QatarA340]

^^ Actually, two are profitable. One is not so far.

[Number2]

'The airports aren't the bottle necks'

You are kidding right?

[InnocentBystander]

'The airports aren't the bottle necks'

You are kidding right?

Talk to the LIDO guys and see what they tell you about airway capacity.

[SplashDown]

CANSO aims to unlock Middle Eastern airspace (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/02/06/352704/canso-aims-to-unlock-middle-eastern-airspace.html)

[Wizofoz]

IBS

Err....how about talking to those of us who FLY THE AEROPLANES?

We get some delays outbound due to the airways, but by far the biggest problem is inbound- We get happily through all the airspace with no problem, to then have to hold for prolonged periods due to the number of aircraft landing at Dubai.

SHJ and ADB traffic uses the same airspace- and DON'T get inbound delays.

[Tower Ranger]

I guess other airports in the UAE only have a fraction of the traffic so it`s understandable that they don`t suffer the same delays. Unfortunately due to the airspace, our procedures and everyone wanting to arrive/depart at the same time it just grinds to a hault.

They think that they are trying to improve things by reducing the useable taxiways and making aircraft take mid point departures but I just can`t see things getting any better anytime soon. It appears some of these great new ideas are made from behind a desk and not by anyone with a licence to work the traffic, i`m sure it looks good on powerpoint.

It doesn`t help much at night when Abu Dhabi book the first hour of slots for their own aircraft before they are ready and force us to wait until ours are ready creating an instant 45 minute delay through Tardi.

As for JXB, they`ll need to get permission to use both ends of the rwy before they can take much in the way of traffic.

[Guy D'ageradar]

We get happily through all the airspace with no problem, to then have to hold for prolonged periods due to the number of aircraft landing at Dubai.

So that's ATC's fault then, is it? It's YOUR airline who schedules in this way (yes , there are others but the majority of peak traffic is emirates). Last night shift I worked, we had 75 arrivals in a 3 hour period, NOT counting SJ/JA/RK (around 25 more). Maximum capacity is 28 per hour and that's NOT including extra space behind A380s or go-arounds caused by the idiots who blatantly ignore speed control, while saying nothing! :ugh:

SHJ and ADB traffic uses the same airspace- and DON'T get inbound delays.

AD - nothing to do with Dubai CTA - no effect whatsoever. Also minimal traffic in comparison.

SJ - Depends on the situation. If the delay is due to runway capacity at DB (or lack of it), what does that have to do with SJ traffic? :confused:

As for JXB, they`ll need to get permission to use both ends of the rwy before they can take much in the way of traffic. :D

Don't suppose anyone noticed the huge rubbish dump just off the end of the (proposed) runway during the planning stages? Wonder who they'll blame that on? :E

[MrMachfivepointfive]

Maximum capacity is 28 per hour

Your bosses say its 32.

BTW: London Gatwick has 40+/hour on a SINGLE runway.

[Guy D'ageradar]

Last night shift I worked, we had 75 arrivals in a 3 hour period

Which part of this was confusing? You were all talking about arrivals rates - so was I. The above figures were ONLY for arrivals - with the departures included, they would be somewhat greater!

As for Gatwick, they operate under different rules, with special provisions / procedures to enable the movement rate, as do many other airports. We are not so lucky. I also doubt whether aircrews are anything like as inattentive / uncooperative / selective in which clearances to follow as they are here. (please note that I am NOT saying that all pilots are as above - a considerable number in this part of the world ARE, though).

[Wizofoz]

So that's ATC's fault then, is it?

Where in the hell did you get the impression I said that?

You're dead right that it is because EK tries to land too many Aeroplanes on one runway at the same time, and I suggested nothing different. Having TWO runways to land on would help, but I understand it isn't, and never suggested it was, ATCs fault.

Shesh! Touchy much???

Maximum capacity is 28 per hour and that's NOT including extra space behind A380s or go-arounds caused by the idiots who blatantly ignore speed control, while saying nothing!

Was it you sent me 'round last night because of Aeroflot? The controller obviously saw him slow down, but said nothing to me. I unilaterally slowed down early, but it wasn't enough to save the situation.

That being said, has anyone actually discussed whether 160kts to 4 miles is safe or achievable?

Are you aware that the approach speeds of our aircraft (which we are required to be stable at by 1000', so 3 1/2 miles roughly) can be as low as 125kts? The FASTEST would be a 777-300ER at MLW, and that's 154kts.

AD - nothing to do with Dubai CTA - no effect whatsoever. Also minimal traffic in comparison.

SJ - Depends on the situation. If the delay is due to runway capacity at DB (or lack of it), what does that have to do with SJ traffic?

Err...that was my point- the problems are Airport, not Airway capacity.

Do you often post angry comments to people, actually agreeing with what they wrote???

I also doubt whether aircrews are anything like as inattentive / uncooperative / selective in which clearances to follow as they are here. (please note that I am NOT saying that all pilots are as above - a considerable number in this part of the world ARE, though).

Then please report as appropriate- after a mild rebuke, my Russian friend last night got a "no problem"- well, no problem for him, maybe! The cost and inconvienience of my go-around WASN'T his problem- but maybe a snot-o-gram from DXB tower might have been!!

[ferris]

Ahh, Guy, you seem to have misread the thread. Wiz was clearly not having a go at ATC (although he might have started now).

[Guy D'ageradar]

Quote:
So that's ATC's fault then, is it?
Where in the hell did you get the impression I said that?


Apoligies if I misunderstood - it seemed to be implied.

Was it you sent me 'round last night because of Aeroflot? The controller obviously saw him slow down, but said nothing to me. I unilaterally slowed down early, but it wasn't enough to save the situation.

That being said, has anyone actually discussed whether 160kts to 4 miles is safe or achievable?

Are you aware that the approach speeds of our aircraft (which we are required to be stable at by 1000', so 3 1/2 miles roughly) can be as low as 125kts? The FASTEST would be a 777-300ER at MLW, and that's 154kts.


In order -

No, it wasn't me.
I'm sure it's discussed regularly but we have to base the speeds on something. Those same 777s are often the ones who "can't do" 160 kts 10 mile out!
And yes, we are painfully aware of the problems with modern aircraft and approach speeds. The number of controllers suspended recently, pending investigation of the loss of separation caused by speed control being ignored is a testament to this.

We are required to work to an approach spacing of 5 miles / vortex wake, whichever is the greater. Here's the good bit - UNLESS YOU SAY OTHERWISE, having read back "160 to 4" then that's what we are basing the speeds / vectors of the following traffic on. If you then slow to 135 knots at 5.5 dme WITHOUT A WORD (regular occurrence), then we will not be aware of the fact until the following traffic is observed to be catching up at half a mile per minute. More often than not, it is then too late to avoid the separation loss.

To give an example of this, I now systematically provide 2.5 nm GREATER than the standard spacing behind a 380 because I KNOW that this will happen. The separation at landing is almost always the required 6 miles or very slightly more - ie 2.5 miles lost during the approach.

Bottom line is - if you can't fly the "standard speeds" then say so - preferably BEFORE the following traffic is established 5 miles behind!


Quote:
AD - nothing to do with Dubai CTA - no effect whatsoever. Also minimal traffic in comparison.

SJ - Depends on the situation. If the delay is due to runway capacity at DB (or lack of it), what does that have to do with SJ traffic?
Err...that was my point- the problems are Airport, not Airway capacity.

Do you often post angry comments to people, actually agreeing with what they wrote???

Not angry at all (believe it or not) - just confirming why
SHJ and ADB traffic uses the same airspace- and DON'T get inbound delays. .

I am simply trying to point out how frustrated I and some of my colleagues are with being pushed constantly to increase runway utilisation (for emirates' benefit) and regularly getting royally scre^ed by that same company's crews who not only dont fly the "agreed" speed, but don't bother to inform us either. Notwithstanding your earlier comment regarding aeroflot - the vast majority of such incidents are "initiated" by emirates' aircraft.

[Guy D'ageradar]

Greetings ferris - as I said, I may have read too much between the lines - the intention was not to hijack the thread, just respond to what was said.

As you are well aware, many of the problems here are down to antiquated procedures / airspace design. Unfortunately, there's little hope of improvement, at least in the short term.

[Wizofoz]

Guy,

Completely fair and reasonable. No implication against ATC intended, I think you fellas do a great job considering the limitations put upon you.

Sounds like we need a cultural change, for which some open communication both ways would help, to get US to communicate when we can't achieve your clearances, and YOU to realize why.

For instance:-

Those same 777s are often the ones who "can't do" 160 kts 10 mile out!


The 777-300er at MLW, with the 154 approach speed, would have a flap 20 min speed of 169kts. To fly slower, he needs flap 30. No prob, EXCEPT we can't go beyond flap 20 without lowering the gear. Thus, to facilitate your 160 at 10 miles, he needs to go fully configured. Assuming he's down to 2000' at 10NM, dragging gear and flaps 30 to the glide-slope is worth about 1T of Kero- and we don't always arrive with that much to spare!!

Do you a deal- get a message from your management to ours that this is happening, and I'll suggest to ours they put something out saying "if you can't accept the clearance, say something every time." Be prepared for that to be a LOT of the time, however!!

[White Knight]

Assuming he's down to 2000' at 10NM, dragging gear and flaps 30 to the glide-slope

Why can't these guys fly a CDA? It makes speed control and configuring easy! 10NM and 3000' really is on the button and you 'ain't draggin' it:ok::ok::ok:

[Wizofoz]

WK,

Still to early to have F30 Gear down, but true, it would be better.

It's another one for Guy- giving us a good appreciation for track-miles would certainly help. or do you WANT us down low early (not being facetious, serious question)

[Tankengine]

Bananaair the response might be:
PANPAN PANPAN PANPAN, fuel emergency, REQUIRE vectors for immediate return.:rolleyes:

FFS if the ATC procedures are needing consultation with the airline to be achievable put some reports in!:ugh:

[Guy D'ageradar]

Wiz - I completely agree that communication / understanding between pilots / controllers is worryingly low - this being exacerbated by the streams of new metal arriving that don't always fly the same way the old ones did!

"if you can't accept the clearance, say something every time."

That is precisely my point - if we know about it, we can do something about the following trafic. :ok:

It's another one for Guy- giving us a good appreciation for track-miles would certainly help.

Again, agreed. I try to give track miles as often as possible - although sometimes our sub-continental friends requiring every clearance to be repeated leaves little time.

or do you WANT us down low early (not being facetious, serious question)

Often - yes. For example, the BUBIN-BOVET track is pretty much head on to the arriving traffic from DESDI. If everyone "floats" down at 200fpm and we can't widen the vector because of Departures /SJ traffic / MIL / PARA / WX activity we need to start applying vertical separation - meaning that if one aircraft descends slowly, then all the rest will be stuck on top. Also the persistent problem of turning final from the STAR without clearance needs to be considered. Lack of airspace is a real problem.

Why can't these guys fly a CDA?

For all of the reasons above, plus the fact that there is a parallel approach to SJ, separated by 8nm and often vertical has to be used between the two.

The real problem is that things will only get worse as more 380s arrive and runway capacity DECREASES due to the increased vortex spacing required. :(

[Wizofoz]

Thanks Guy, I'll drop our Flight Ops an email.

BTW, do YOU think Simops is on the horizon?


OH...and we seem to have had a productive, professional chat about relevant regional issues on PPRUNE- We're probably in danger of being banned!!

Err...Err... Bloody Management, EK sucks, God I hate Dubai......

That should help!!

[what_goes_up]

Guys
Good to see, that this rant has turned into into something of professional benefit for both side. Piloting/ATC should be a work together and not against each other.
Just one request from my side... Knowing the track miles would help a lot!
But :ok: for the work of the blip drivers. The short comings that bother us jockeys are mainly to be found in the system and not in the individual's work.
Cheers for keeping us apart.

[Bird On]

Ya see young WIZ, sometimes you try to do the right thing for everyone by doing whats right, only to have some ignorant low life sod come and cr@p all over you and everyone else because they think their own selfish needs are more important than those ahead of or behind them. :yuk:

[Wizofoz]

Err...

Thanks Bird On....

That was lucid, meaningful and totally on topic:confused::confused::confused:

[EGGW]

Please calm things down please guys, everyone is ever so brave behind the facade of a computer. Please try :ugh: and be pleasant to each other :p:p

EGGW

[typhoonpilot]

No, it wasn't me.
I'm sure it's discussed regularly but we have to base the speeds on something. Those same 777s are often the ones who "can't do" 160 kts 10 mile out!
And yes, we are painfully aware of the problems with modern aircraft and approach speeds. The number of controllers suspended recently, pending investigation of the loss of separation caused by speed control being ignored is a testament to this.

We are required to work to an approach spacing of 5 miles / vortex wake, whichever is the greater. Here's the good bit - UNLESS YOU SAY OTHERWISE, having read back "160 to 4" then that's what we are basing the speeds / vectors of the following traffic on. If you then slow to 135 knots at 5.5 dme WITHOUT A WORD (regular occurrence), then we will not be aware of the fact until the following traffic is observed to be catching up at half a mile per minute. More often than not, it is then too late to avoid the separation loss.



Take a look at this thread from more than 4 years ago Guy:

The 160 Knot thread (http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/243292-160-knot-thread.html)


Typhoonpilot

[cerbus]

We are all aware of the limitations of ATC but I would suggest it is the self-imposed rules it puts on itself. This is probably because of the lowest common demonitors working control but a good look at LHR, CDG, ORD and their min separation would help us out greatly. If a contoller can;t handle traffic like the rest of the world then get rid of them even if they are local.
Dubai is not even the top 50 of busiest airports for traffic and we always have delays arriving. It is time for ATC to look at itself and correct the problem. This will help out everyone.

[fatbus]

For the ATC types: what ROD do you expect during arrivals and when given a speed reduction is there a rate which you expect A/C to slow?

Thanks for the info.



Also it seems that every time we lave the hold you want 250kts after we have slowed to hold speed @210, do you guys take that into considerations when dealing with spacing IE leave the hold a bit sooner and stay at 210?

Again thanks for the info

[emratty]

Exchange of information and ideas between controllers and pilots is the best way to iron out these questions. In my previous airline controllers would often attend our CRM days and the amount we learnt from each other was fantastic not to mention the time spent by the controllers on the jumpseat. I was lucky enough to have a day watching these guys and girls at work in the London TMA and the job they do there is outstanding:ok:
I feel for the UAE/ Dubai controllers as quite frankly the standard of RT used by pilots in these parts of the world is shocking and something that controllers in Europe do not come up against very often

[Tower Ranger]

Cerbus, what many don`t realise is that the ATCO`s have very little input into the procedures that they have to use. Instructions come from a higher power then that which employs us and we just have to make it work.
Minimum spacing on final is 5 miles or vortex whichever is greater and as mentioned earlier to keep the 5 miles until touchdown requires increased spacing. This is not down to controller ability it is because the rwys do not operate independantly so a departure must be rolling in the gap between an arrival touching down and the next arrival reaching 2 miles, sounds like plenty of room but it`s not.
I can only speak for the Tower side of things and unfortunately a lot of our restrictions on taxiway usage and crossing points are driven by the inability of some pilots to follow taxy instructions and to stray across red stopbars onto active runways, it is set to get worse with the withdrawal of even more routes and crossings.
Quite a few of our guys have worked at some of the busiest Units, Heathrow, Gatwick, Atlanta, Lax etc and it is very frustrating to try to increase the movement rate when we are given restrictions which make that ever more difficult.

[cerbus]

I can understand the higer power thing. After all they will never admit their shortcomings publically but at least they accomodate them and plan for them.
I often wonder why ATC can't up the movements especially with the things to come in the near future. As everyone knows it is only going to get worse.
Something to plan for which will never happen in the middle east is where all the agencies can coordinate the flow into DXB. When Bahrain tells you go 310 kts and then the UAE tells you 250kts when you check in and Dubai puts you in a hold better talking would be a good thing. You will never get the arabs to agree on anything but it is worth a try for better flow.

[FlyEmirates777]

Since peak traffic times are just about all EK traffic, wouldn't it make sense for EK ops to coordinate our arrivals and ACARS us an RTA time over Desdi/Bubin so we're not all arriving right on top of each other...use the 5 hours inbound from Europe or the Far East to get everyone spaced out nicely.

[Wizofoz]

FE777

There's software being trialled that does just that.

[InnocentBystander]

IBS

Err....how about talking to those of us who FLY THE AEROPLANES?

We get some delays outbound due to the airways, but by far the biggest problem is inbound- We get happily through all the airspace with no problem, to then have to hold for prolonged periods due to the number of aircraft landing at Dubai.

I wasn't talking about now. I was talking about going forward; once two or more runways at OMDW are operational the congestion in Dubai should no longer be the problem, but trying to fit 270+ EK planes, 250+ EY Planes and who knows how many GF and QR planes through the feeder airways will be the problem.

Throw in some unrest in Iran, Saudi or Bahrain and the whole thing falls apart much sooner.

[harry the cod]

In answereing a previous question, minimum 1000' per minute unless mentioned otherwise and a speed reduction at a rate of 1kt per second. Regarding descent in the hold, I think 500' but maybe someone has a definitive answer for that please.

Harry

[donpizmeov]

Can i have their early turns to the LOC please? Flight time is already longer that the block and every little bit helps.:ok:

The Don

[ruserious]

yep, I am with Don on that, if you can't make a short approach don't accept it.
Personally I find they wake me up nicely :eek:

[Guy D'ageradar]

F5

Is Track-Miles-To-Run a secret for some reason?

No, It's not. It should be given at least once during the approach but if, for example, you are given direct UKRIM, then I would consider it somewhat superfluous and a waste of r/t time.

Or is it unknown? Are ATC shooting from the hip?

Yes and No. There is a plan. Often that plan has to change because, for example, aircraft 1 is floating down at 200 fpm and won't be ready to turn when planned or b) aircraft 2 is being "creative" with the speeds and the planned sequence will no longer work.

At 05:00 it shouldn't be too much of a problem as almost everyone is coming through BUBIN, so it's a case of "follow the leader". The provisos above still apply, however.

Why do we have to ask? You shouldn't and if you do, you should certainly get an answer.

As already stated, it's only going to get worse. Latest figures for Jan 2011 show ANOTHER 10% increase on last JAN for Dubai TMA movements - that puts us on track for a >40% increase in movements in 3 yrs, by the end of this year. This using hopelessly outdated procedures and equipment - never mind electronic strips, we can't even get electronic estimates from the UAE ACC! As for the radar, the latest all singing / dancing system is sitting in DWC but won't be online for quite some time (I'll let you guess why but it's closely linked to the reason we're still on 2009 salaries, despite all the proud boasts of year on year record profits by emirates et al).

Moves ARE afoot to increase movement rates by allowing independant use of the runways but I really can't see how that can be done without overcoming the insidious speed control issues - we will be expected to work down to minimum vortex wake spacing but without addressing the issue, expect lots of go-arounds.

All in all, everyone from the ACC in AD to apTWR/APP does their best with the tools available. The tools SHOULD evolve in the foreseeable future - let's hope they do. :ok:

[Tin-Bullet]

@Guy D'ageradar

As already stated, it's only going to get worse. Latest figures for Jan 2011 show ANOTHER 10% increase on last JAN for Dubai TMA movements - that puts us on track for a >40% increase in movements in 3 yrs, by the end of this year.

Where are the accountants, perhaps they could get a 'clue' on what's going on & dig in their tight pockets! = Payrise = NOT GETTING!

@emratty

I feel for the UAE/ Dubai controllers as quite frankly the standard of RT used by pilots in these parts of the world is shocking and something that controllers in Europe do not come up against very often

The Standard of RT ONLY???????

[Macrohard]

Have to ask. Wouldn't clearance via PDC cut down the amount of radio traffic on delivery substantially? It would also cut the frustration of both the controller and pilots, who often seem unable to contact each other when required.

[springbok449]

I have to agree with the above, PDC is the way to go because when you contact DLV they always come back asking you to SBY the problem is that 9 times out of 10 if you dont call them back you will be standing by forever...

[Tin-Bullet]

@Macrohard

Wouldn't clearance via PDC cut down the amount of radio traffic on delivery substantially? It would also cut the frustration of both the controller and pilots, who often seem unable to contact each other when required.:ok:

In the pipeline.....they say...as the New Radar System oRAT3, electronic strips, & perhaps a new Ground Control position!

@springbok449

I have to agree with the above, PDC is the way to go because when you contact DLV they always come back asking you to SBY the problem is that 9 times out of 10 if you dont call them back you will be standing by forever...

PDC - :ok:

but......

I guess you are really exaggerating big time!:yuk:

[Tower Ranger]

Let`s be honest, 9 times out of ten when you are told to standby as we`re is on the phone to Abu Dhabi sorting out slots, you won`t!