More Lack of Military Leadership

[Dick Smith]

I have started a new thread on this one as it is quite separate to the Williamtown issue, although it does lean towards the same problems.

Over twenty years ago, ICAO introduced airspace classifications for good, proven safety reasons, i.e. pilots would know what type of service they would get in a particular airspace – all just good commonsense.

In the USA, the FAA was one of the first to move to the ICAO classifications followed by Australia a little after 1991. How have the Australian military gone? I suggest you look at Richmond airspace on the current VTC. Yes, it says C lower level 4,500 feet, A lower level flight level 180” but when it comes to surface to 2,500 feet, it just says “Richmond Military Control”.

The military told me over fifteen years ago that they were going to move to the ICAO classifications like the USA, Canada and Europe, but they haven’t done this.

I don’t think there is any better example of the complete lack of decision-making ability within the military. Imagine – they can’t even show the leadership to force through some letter classifications for existing airspace!

Of course I say “force through” because there will be a huge band of people saying, “it’s done us well in the past, we must never change it”.

[Atlas Shrugged]

Thanks Dick, I'll make a note.

[The Chaser]

In line with the response to your erroneous claims made in the Williamtown thread:- http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/439404-williamtown-procedures-6.html#post6213767

Seeing as both the US and Australia administer Class C as per ICAO, what Exactly do YOU think the US Military does differently in terminal areas (airspace dimensions and services) to that of the RAAF ? :hmm:

[YPJT]

Dick, if it is of such paramount concern, perhaps you should direct your inquiry here. (http://www.defence.gov.au/leaders/chief/index.htm) I'm sure the CDFs office will drop everything to ensure you are not inconvenienced any more.

[scran]

OMG!!!! :eek: :eek:



HOW DARE THEY!!!!!! := :=






Arrest the lot of 'em I say :ok:

[VH-XXX]

Dick, isn't it all about cost these days? Just like a business case in any organisation.

Maybe if you can work out how much it costs you to hold, multiply that by the number of trips you make and the associated environmental impact, blah, blah, then multiply by everyone else that uses it and then use that as an argument. After that, add in safety issues, demonstrate the number of aircraft that have been lost due to the diversions etc.

The way it is at the moment it would seem that you have a holiday house just south of Willy and you are complaining because it increases your trip time to your Sydney offices each day by 10 minutes (hypothetical example of course).

[Critical Reynolds No]

Lucky the F-111's have been retired. I could see a TFR run to Terry Hills. :ok:

[Capn Bloggs]

ICAO introduced airspace classifications for good, proven safety reasons, i.e. pilots would know what type of service they would get in a particular airspace – all just good commonsense.

Errr, what alphabet soupspace am I in today??

The ONLY reason alphabet soupspace was invented was to facilitate the "Free in GE" mob. Martha told me so! Alphabet soupspace does not improve safety one iota, nor in most part, does it save any flippin' money. Get off it Dick.

[Chronic Snoozer]

I don’t think there is any better example of the complete lack of decision-making ability within the military. Imagine – they can’t even show the leadership to force through some letter classifications for existing airspace!

force through:ugh:

Kind of ironic - all this consultation with industry when all thats really needed is leadership to force it through.

I don't think there is any better example of the complete lack of introspective ability within the private aeroplane-owning fraternity.

[scran]

Not only Richmond - the dreaded Defence Closed Mind fraternity do the same thing at ALL the Military Control Zones. :eek:

I'd tell them Dick, but I left the military and they ignore my closed mind. :sad:

I know - get your EXPERT submariner to ring up good ole Gus and tell him off...that should work - don't you think? :ok:

[Super Cecil]

Don't you blokes get blisters from all the Dick bashing you do? :8

[The Chaser]

:E Cec

... but a small price to pay :} ... to fend off the rogering we would ALL otherwise receive from the hapless outa control, wrinkly old VH-COK :ok:

[C-change]

Hey Mods,

Can we change the name of this thread to;

" Dick didn't like hearing the truth about his stupid proposal in the Williamtown Procedures thread, so he started a new one".

People should have a read of the thread below, where people have provided factual information of how Dick confused Radar procedures, ATC procedures and lots more. He even managed to throw in the Sea Sprite and even some dribble on Nuclear Subs ! Even when it was proven that he had confused many procedures, he accussed all and sundry of having closed minds, just becasue we didn't agree with him. He even demands people answer "HIS" questions whilst dodging others.

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/439404-williamtown-procedures.html


Dick,
we get it that you don't like the ADF in any form. Keep on bagging them mate, I hope you never require their assiatance.

If the RIC airspace and the Williamtown issue is pissing you so bad, take up SCRAN's offer to speak to Chief of Air Force.

If you carried on like this in your beloved USA and hacked on their Military like you do here, you would be considered to be a traitor !

[Angle of Attack]

Why get mad, turn off transponder and just fly through it lots do.

[SgtBundy]

Good call AoA - the Rhinos might need some gunnery practice

[Atlas Shrugged]

Oh FFS!

Don't you people listen to anything.

Stop feeding this fecking idiot!

Go back to the last thread (the one so convieniently deflected by Dick) and read, re read, re read and re read again, what SCRAN wrote.

Then go read it again.

Then go read what Dick wrote in this and other countless, pointless displays of abject misery in threads about the same thing. Use you brains, read between the lines, think about it, the re read it again.

Then tab down to the bottom of this page, yes THIS PAGE and every other fecking page on pPrune and read this "As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions."

Read the last 4 words.

THEN RE READ THEM, THEN RE READ THEM AGAIN.

IT IS IN BIG RED FECKING LETTERS!!!

Then go read what SCRAN wrote....again.

I care not whether I get banned from here (in fact I welcome it). I have been doing the same job for 32 years and I still LOVE going to work. I dont think that there are too many people who can say that, but really, with all of this pointless ranting and raving about nothing, I'm over it.....thanks Dick!!! No, really, thanks....

You want to put GA back where it was, then keep you mouth shut. Go away. Bugger off. Go over to the USA and tool about until your heart's content, if you like it so much. Just piss off....please. You are and have done, more harm than good.

I've had enough.

I will say though, that I have been flying BK-WLM-TRE-thence north of there DCT for about the past 11 years, sometimes several time a week and not once, EVER, NEVER NOT FECKING NEVER EVER ONCE (although the route out over Glouster at 10000 was an exception, but pleasant nonetheless), have I ever been held, nor ever refused clearance.....EVER!

What's your fecking problem???

You wanna fly the lane, then fly the fecking lane. If you don't then ASK FOR FECKING CLEARANCE. It's not hard. It's not rocket science. Just do it and stop whining on this forum about how hard done by you are.

I shall miss this place, not Dick's utter garbage, but honest writings from true AIRMEN like Chimbu Chuckles, Forky, the tales of PNG, and other places so brilliantly told, sixties relic and airsupport's recent stories and excellent photos on the other thread, tinpis (always makes me laugh). I don't know any of you guys but I really wish I had had the chance to fly with you back then...just once would have done. Wally (yes even for a King Air pilot, still ok in my book), binos (rip mate!), and of course those two idiot brothers plazbot and chrisby (where did they go by the way??)....probably got jack of it like me...oh and SN3 Guppy - always, ALWAYS a treat to read your posts in TechLog and bro. gaunty, still probably lurking around somewhere ;) and the lovely Rose!!

Thanks so much Dick.

POB if you see this before its deleted ring me please.....same number

Adios

[Kharon]

Dicks grown up. No great fan but, methinks, he has a point.

What if the system is now in a minor fashion, impacting on his daily operations. Same as ours = Reality fix.

Lets be honest, in Perth, Sydney and a couple of other places, the 'military' have been creating expensive, even dangerous diversions for 'commercial traffic' to deal with.

(We do, as tax payer fund the buggers after all).

PITA really. What is it they have - 14 serviceable aircraft now. Whoo Hooo !!!. ( Minority group I reckon)

I agree with the American Navy attitude; what boundaries ??. (12 miles was our fearless leaders call, remember ?).

Everywhere else seems to be able to manage a whole lot more 'flying critters' than we do, without any of the fuss.

Welcome to the real world Dick. 'They' don't care who they stuff up; 'thunderstorm, weather divert!!. What ??. Sod off - (read the flaming NOTAM) - declare an emergency, ya GA tosser (also applies to VA and Big Q as well).

Recommend : Maree/ Tibuburra/ Leigh Creek or Alice`Springs as alternative bases. But nothing, absolutely nothing beats Mt Isa as a preferred base, nothing. Except the poor Darling's may leave the service and take up teaching jobs, or whatever. Lead to Serve, I wonder.

[PilotEyes]

Isn't the rule civilians get class C service in MIL CTR's?

[topdrop]

Why don't we simplify the ICAO airspace classification?
Let's just go for controlled airspace (IFR separated from all other acft and VFR get traffic info) and uncontrolled airspace (IFR get traffic info on all other known acft, VFR do whatever they want) It's simple to understand, cheaper to operate and proven to work - plus none of Dick's highly paid American consultants required.

[clark y]

topdrop,

my thoughts exactly. Why don't we just go back to the way it was before "alphabet soupspace" and just apply the KISS principle. You're either being controlled or not.
As for the control steps, they should also be widened out as they used to be in the distant past. It would help me and countless other PPRuNers in our day to day travels.

Clark y.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

force through......that sounds so much like......
"CRASH THROUGH or CRASH"
:hmm:

[Icarus53]

You might have missed the headlines Dick, but the ADF's been on combat ops for 12 of the last 15 years. I'm sure they'll get right onto domestic airspace reform (not sure exactly where that fits on a Mission Essential Task List) once the rest of the World takes a chill pill.:{

If you want to take shots at leadership, there's plenty more targets out here in civvy street.:ugh:

Zzzzzing!

[Dick Smith]

Once again, posters completely ignore the fact that other countries like the USA – with about thirty times the amount of traffic in a similar land area – can move to ICAO airspace classifications for their military airspace.

This is a major safety issue, as it shows any pilot what service they will be given and what separation standards apply in the airspace.

Yes, I too have heard that civilian traffic receive a Class C service in our military airspace at places such as Richmond. But why not say this? In fact, I have found the service in Richmond at low level is more similar to Class D.

I put it to all of you once again – anyone in the services is being shockingly let down. If the leadership is so pathetic that it can’t even agree on international airspace classifications, it is obvious it will have difficulty in making decisions where people’s lives are at risk.

I will say it again – with the obvious lack of leadership in the military, I would wonder just how many unnecessary deaths are being caused because of this?

In relation to Richmond, I can remember the days when you were not allowed to get a clearance into the airspace without first phoning some person at the Richmond Air Force Base. I purchased one of the first “007” phones and put it in my helicopter so I could call from the chopper. I think they saw I had out-manoeuvred them and from that point on you could actually use a radio to call in for a clearance.

The telephone requirement remained for something like fifteen years and was only changed when they realised they had been out-manoeuvred. These people are a disaster for their service personnel and it is absolutely imperative that this be exposed.

Any holding I get is completely irrelevant to the major issue.

What I see is people on this thread who desperately want to attempt to keep the status quo. But for some reason the Air Force are not still flying around in DC3’s – they’ve moved ahead.

I’m sure we have all heard the criticism of the joint strike fighter project. Let’s hope that criticism is not true. If it is, our forces will be let down once again by gross incompetence.

[Capn Bloggs]

the fact that other countries like the USA * with about thirty times the amount of traffic in a similar land area
Eh? Last week you said it was twenty. Besides, 80% of Australia's landmass never sees a human, let alone a low-level aeroplane. Compare apples with apples, Dick, otherwise your arguments are non-sensical.

I’m sure we have all heard the criticism of the joint strike fighter project. Let’s hope that criticism is not true.
What, have the yanks stuffed up something else?

[Dick Smith]

It appears Stephen Smith, the Minister for Defence, agrees with me. Read what the Minister says in today’s Sydney Morning Herald via link HERE (http://www.smh.com.au/national/rusty-ships-boats-that-dont-fit-leave-minister-all-at-sea-20110201-1acgx.html).

To quote some extracts:

Mr Smith and the Defence Materiel Minister, Jason Clare, refused to condemn the hierarchy of the Defence Materiel Organisation (DMO), which buys everything from salt shakers to submarines, but said there were serious ''institutional'' problems within Defence.

Mr Smith said the LCM Watercraft project had been axed because the boats could not be launched from the amphibious transport ships HMAS Manoora and Kanimbla.

''That was not a project with which Defence covered itself with glory,'' he said. ''At a cost of some $40 million to the Australian taxpayer, this is precisely what we are seeking to avoid in the future.''

It’s fascinating reading what the Defence Minister himself says about those in charge, whilst I am attacked constantly when I mention that the military hierarchy can’t even allocate international airspace classifications to its airspace.

It’s interesting that Andrew Davies of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute is quoted in the same article as saying,

''I'm just shaking my head at some of this. Where to begin?'' Dr Davies said. ''Watercraft that don't fit the ships they were supposed to fit, and the ships are being retired anyway?"

Yes, once again, another Super Seasprite fiasco. And why would it just be in purchasing equipment? It sounds to me as if the total lack of competent leadership permeates the whole organisation.

Yes, I know there are plenty of good people in our military, but they are obviously the people who never get promoted.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7e/Canberra_Class_-_Tenix_copyright%2C_fair_use_claimed.jpg/300px-Canberra_Class_-_Tenix_copyright%2C_fair_use_claimed.jpg


Just might fit these ships....typical ALP...haven't got a clue! And neither do you, Mr Smith....sorry it's not a nuclear sub:hmm:

[onemore]

Dick in two previous threads I have explained to you why the sea sprite farce kicked off and both times you have ignored me.

Once agin your ignorance of the Defence capability management process is demonstrated. *Read your post above - you mention DMO - it is a Defence branch managed by Defence civilians . Serving members are in it yes but not in positions that you think. *In simple terms here is an explanation:*

Service identifies a need - lets say boats for the amphibs
They research and seek industry feedback
It goes to cabinet for first pass approval
If approved it then becomes a real project an DMO takes over.
The services loose all control basically from then until acceptance into service*

Guess what - the services don't just accept the DMO product - guess what sea sprite is a classic example of that. *It wouldn't pass acceptance.......

Instead of slagging off at Defence service people go away and do some research into the Defence procurement system - here's a tip go to the DMO Website and dowload the handbook.

While you on on google try searching for current ADF operations and see just how good those people and some of the gear they use is going. *

Defence is a much larger organization then a bunch of electronic stores or a magazine. In those organizations you had complete control and were responsible to yourself. *In some ways your time in the aviation industry should have taught you that LARGE. Government organizations are always restricted in what they can do and suffer many outside influences.

When you finished googling above go and search pprune and check out what this forum is about - I bet it doesn't say it's a place to slag of on Defence people.

[onemore]

I’m sure we have all heard the criticism of the joint strike fighter project. Let’s hope that criticism is not true. If it is, our forces will be let down once again by gross incompetence.

Do some research - Australia was signed up to the project by the government. Defence wasn't involved in that decision.

[Arm out the window]

I suppose it's to be expected that you would use sensationalist methods to publicise your causes, Dick, but what's your aim?
If you just want to vent your spleen, well OK, I guess, but you'd probably get more people on side if you didn't resort to silly thread titles like this one.

[Pera]

Yes, I too have heard that civilian traffic receive a Class C service in our military airspace at places such as Richmond. But why not say this?

DIK must be too poor to buy a copy of AIP. :ugh: Two nil, can't wait for the next inept thread.

[Gundog01]

Dick,

Hows the Jam business?? Congrats on outsmarting ATC you must feel pretty good about yourself.

Everyone knows the minister is more interested in getting re-elceted than truly managing a defence portfolio. The public is rightly furious of wasted Billions and the minister is going to use major projects which have gone pear shaped to get some brownie points with Joe Public.

Dick at all stages in my flying career including postings to WLM, TVL and ESL i ahve never heard any civvy traffic be delayed or held unneccessarily.

Do you honestly think renaming MILITARY CTR to 'C Class' will genuinely change anything. Espocially at Richmond. Richmond is a control zone, no approach controllers to provide true C Class radar separation. It is some guys in a tower getting random requests from every wicky wong going and every millionaire helicopter pilot trying to get a clearance.

Not sure wether constantly bagging the Military head shed in this forum is going to 'expose' the incompetence you claim.

If all else fails actually read AIP here and find out exactly what you MIL CTR is equivalent to.

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com.au/publications/current/aip/enr/1_4_1-18.pdf

It is amusing reading your posts Dick, keep it up......so to speak

[ozbiggles]

FLASH MESSAGE
With immediate effect ALL military operations are to CEASE
This includes life saving operations following TC Yasi, flood relief operations and military operations in Afghanistan, Iraq, East Timor and South Pacific Islands.
STAND BY for orders
Orders
SITUATION - We have been holding our Richard for too long (abbreviations permitted for names)
MISSION - We must stop holding our Richard for too long X 2
EXECUTION - Stop holding our Richards
ADMIN - ALL Military operations are to cease. Eyes must be taken off the big picture of operations, life saving missions and assistance to the civil community and fixing lingering admin issues. Our Richard's are tired of being held.
COMMAND - All ideas must come from our Richards. There is no alternative, resistance is futile.
QUESTIONS?
QUESTION?
Note - This post was achieved with my mind closed and shut off to the big issues. I know there are many Richards out there but hell, apparently you can group a bunch of people and paint them all with the same brush.

[gupta]

Easier solution Dick

When you get these "epiphanies", break them to the pollies & general media first

Then come on here and ask for support for the original premise

That's perhaps how you should have started as Head Honcho of CAA

But you knew better

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[scran]

Dick,

Above on 1 Feb you stated (quote):

I put it to all of you once again – anyone in the services is being shockingly let down. If the leadership is so pathetic that it can’t even agree on international airspace classifications, it is obvious it will have difficulty in making decisions where people’s lives are at risk.

I will say it again – with the obvious lack of leadership in the military, I would wonder just how many unnecessary deaths are being caused because of this?


In light of the death of another soldier (fighting for his country to allow people like you to live in comfort and free speech) i have taken the liberty of printing all your threads here about the shocking lack of military leadersip and faxed then (from the local post office you understand) to both A Current Affair and Today Tonight. I'm sure they will be in touch later today to arrange an interview.

Perhaps you should call them now? You do have them on speed dial don't you? (I've seen you on there often enough quacking on about anything so you can get your face on the tube - not that I watch long you understand).



Oh - and don't thank me for this small service - I'm happy to help you....................

[bushy]

This thread is rediculous. Only one or ywo posts have logical discussion. The rest are just dick bashing.
Juvenile junk.

[Tidbinbilla]

This is supposed to be a forum for professional pilots.

*click*