Flying Suits to be scrapped for SH aircrew

[Father Jack Hackett]

I've just been reliably informed that SH crews are to lose their Flying Suits from May and will be adopting Fire Retardant CS 95 for all flying activities at home and elsewhere.

I would be very interested to hear from anyone who has experience of using both and has any thoughts on whether or not this is a good move......

Father Jack

[soprano54]

Chroist that'll put the cat amongst the pidgeons, they'll be hordes reporting sick to get skin grafts then!!!;)

[HEDP]

I have it on good authority that army aircrew will shortly be changing to American flight suits as trials have indicated they are more fire retardant and available in a greater range of sizes.

It does however seem to make sense to only use a single set of kit, more economical however; army aircrew not allowed to wear CS 95 Fire Retardant as insufficient in circulation to support ops and training.

Seems like joined up thinking again, not!

HEDP

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

If the plan is to supply us with fire retardant MTP that we can use on Ops AND in the UK then I am all for it. If it's yet another set of flying clothing that I have to hang up in the wardrobe along with the green/desert flying suits and FR CS95 (alongside the green CS95, desert CS95 and Non FR MTP) then they can do one!

[Willard Whyte]

I wore CS95 on occasion whilst flying Hercs. 'Twas fine. In fact I found it more comfortable than flying suits in nasty hot places.

I'd be happier wearing CS95 in any situation that would normally call for No. 2's*, too. No, that's blues not poos.

[MAD Boom]

I've just been reliably informed that SH crews are to lose their Flying Suits from May and will be adopting Fire Retardant CS 95 for all flying activities at home and elsewhere.

Father Jack, were you reliably informed as to why?

p.s. hoping the Future Mrs Father Jack is on the mend.

[iRaven]

I've just been reliably informed that SH crews are to lose their Flying Suits from May and will be adopting Fire Retardant CS 95 for all flying activities at home and elsewhere.


Surely, some mistake? I thought we were all to wear "Blues" these days and that RAF Ethos was all important and sh!t? Random!

Oxford Pattern Shoes, No1 trousers, Light Blue Shirt and RAF Cravats all around and sh!t :ok:

http://www.flmboynt.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/armstrong-and-miller2.jpg

[StopStart]

Properly designed, aircrew specific pattern FR MTP for use in both UK, ex and ops would be excellent. The current nondescript, dehydrated-urine-alike FR CS95, whilst looking like a bag'o'****e is nonetheless far more comfortable and practical than flying suits.

Desert flying suits will however still be required so the GR kids will have something to change into for hanging out in at the DFAC... Hilarious work fellas, keep it up. :hmm:

As an aside, perhaps CAM and the PTs could spend a little less time equipping the non-deployable Typhoon ladies with gold plated survival gear and toss a few bones in the direction of the SH and Tac AT fleets?

[Tankertrashnav]

A while back some old git of my vintage made a plea for fewer acronyms and abbreviations on here, if only for the benefit of those members like myself, who are not current, and who are in any case easily confused :confused:

So from post one onwards, for our benefit, would some kind soul who has a minute or two please oblige?

SH -
MTP -
DFAC -
CAM -
PT -
GR -
TAC AT -

Dont worry if it's too much trouble, though, I'll probably forget it all the next day anyway :(

(TTFN - TTN ;))

[Thelma Viaduct]

You forgot PAX, they love that one too.

Geeks :8:8:8

[Father Jack Hackett]

MAD Boom,

I'll pass on your regards to her good self.

As to why the decision has been made, I'd guess that it would be to save a few shekels.

While I agree that the FR CS 95 gear is a bit more comfie in the warmer climates, it's still a pretty poor substitute for something along the lines of a proper 2-piece flying suit with pockets, zips and knee-boards in the usual places. The Spams along with many of our other erstwhile allies see fit to supply their helo crews with such kit but we seem to be pursuing an inferior option.

I think it begs certain questions about FOD, and cockpit organisation and ergonomics that aren't asked when you're wearing the good old-fashioned fire-proof drinking suit. I'm very happy to move on and go for a single solution that works in all situations but I don't believe the FR gear is it......

[kharmael]

SH - Support Helicopter (Puma/ Merlin/Chinook)
MTP - Multi Terrain Patter, New Generation of camouflage clothing Guy on the Right (http://domhyde.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/40cdo-mtp01.jpg)
DFAC - US Acronym: Dining Facility
CAM - Centre Of Aviation Medicine
PT - Not sure, Procurement Team?
GR - Ground Attack/ Reconnaissance (As in Tornado GR4)
TAC AT - Tactical Air Transport. That thing C130s do :}
:ok:

[Easy Street]

Desert flying suits will however still be required so the GR kids will have something to change into for hanging out in at the DFAC... Hilarious work fellas, keep it up. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gifNot quite sure why the idea of aircrew wearing flying suits at an airfield is so amusing (it seems to work for every other nation at KAF), but if it cheers you up then smile away in your scruffy, belt-less, piss-coloured ensemble! Many of the GR guys still use the desert flying suit for flying! (shock horror). Personally, I flew a few sorties in the FRCS but found that during the course of a sortie, the shirt became untucked. I found it impossible to tuck it back in whilst strapped to Martin Baker's finest and wearing a pair of g-trousers; I didn't fancy having a singed arse to add to my troubles after an ejection so reverted to the one-piece flying suit. The main snag with desert flying suits is getting hold of them; however the Tristar stewards always seem to have a full complement!

Some of the guys did fly in FRCS and changed into either standard CS95 or desert flying suits on the ground. Judging by the 'odour' emanating from some of the flying kit lockers, I was glad they were changing there and not bringing their scuzzy kit back to the block!

If it's yet another set of flying clothing that I have to hang up in the wardrobe along with the green/desert flying suits and FR CS95 (alongside the green CS95, desert CS95 and Non FR MTP) then they can do one!I agree with this totally. All of the above uniforms (except the green flying suits and CS95) can be seen in use at KAF, with various combinations - e.g. which of the 4 possible smocks/jackets is the correct one to wear over a desert flying suit whilst out around KAF? Which way out do you wear the reversible thermal jacket? Throw in a mixture of belts (green and desert) and hats (desert and MTP floppies with brims of varying size, berets, even the odd chip bag on some of the many senior officers) and suddenly we look like a bag o'****e.. I know it's not important in the grand scheme of things but it just looks a bit crap compared to the identi-kitted US Army, USAF, RCAF, etc...

[NutLoose]

MTP - What dyslexic women suffer from

GR - Shorthand for GR Zero. what we will be left with when the
current Government scraps the Tornado GR4 fleet.

TAC AT - Language spoken by those green headed guys in the film Mars Attack.

[Union Jack]

American flight suits ..... are .....available in a greater range of sizes.

Why doesn't that surpprise me?:)

Jack

[blagger]

Stores at Brize now issuing these new American looking flying boots - have semi canvas sides -not heard good reports about them though. Have also heard the US flying suits rumour, don't know what they'll do about kneepads for training fleets as I don't think US suits have them.

[just another jocky]

I've got the new boots, seem comfy enough, but not flown in them yet. Not heard any bad words.....yet.

EasyStreet - agree with what you say fella. I usually preferred desert flying suit to FRCS, but as we were there over winter, they were not really adequate should one find oneself on the side of a mountain, or aircrew-turning the jet at Kabul at 0200hrs.

I'm still unvconvinced by the argument that ejection-seat equipped aircraft need the crew to have fire-retardent clothing. Apart from MDC splatter, what fire injuries have there been in a bang-seat jet over the last 10 years? Trust me, if I see flames in the cockpit, I am pulling the handle very very quickly.

[Tankertrashnav]

Kharmael -

TVM (ta very much) :ok:

[PPRuNeUser0211]

On the new boots - I've had a pair for a month or so now, and they're fine, both for cutting around camp and for flying in. The sole is a little on the thick side but tbh you don't really notice it in the air, it just makes you bloody tall on the ground!

[Willard Whyte]

Not quite sure why the idea of aircrew wearing flying suits at an airfield is so amusing

It isn't, usually.

But, when one sees one's mission crew swanning around a foreign squadron bar, the flight deck crew have gone back to their accommodation for a ****, shower and shave and returned to said bar before heading into town, it makes one smile.

Particularly when mission crew come off somewhat for the worse after a scuffle with our host nation's finest.

Happy days.

[heights good]

The new boots absolutely shred my heels so I stopped wearing them. The stitching on the Desert version is horizontal inside the boot, the perfect place to rub on your achilles. Painful and not ideal if I had to hot foot it so i binned them and stuck with the Lowas instead which gave me no issues.

HG

[Mal Drop]

I seem to recall a move for us to fly in combats on Hercs during the 1991 shenanigans out East. One of the major questions was how would the pax know who to follow when running away bravely from the burning mess in the event of an aircraft evacuation at a critical stage of having the big spinny things switched to "noisy".

Personally I liked the grobag and zips on my flying boots. Three firm upward motions and I was dressed for a big day filled with adventure, and if I lost a flying boot in the case of an ejection then it was probably my fault for getting into a nasty Whittle things with one of those many handled seats of instantaneous transportation instead of the trusty flying restaurant car.

[Trim Stab]

into a nasty Whittle things with one of those many handled seats of instantaneous transportation instead of the trusty flying restaurant car


:confused:Presumably you wrote that after your third joint?

[Fire 'n' Forget]

It isn't, usually.

But, when one sees one's mission crew swanning around a foreign squadron bar, the flight deck crew have gone back to their accommodation for a ****, shower and shave and returned to said bar before heading into town, it makes one smile.

Particularly when mission crew come off somewhat for the worse after a scuffle with our host nation's finest.

Thats not saying a lot for E3 flight deck......average age 50......so out for dinner at 1600 (missing happy hour)......pipe and slippers in room at 1800 :)

[Willard Whyte]

I think the average age of our flight deck that trip was 37.

Average time to bed about 01:00

No bruises from fighting in the bar, either.

Any similarity between flight deck age and mission crew IQ was purely coincidental, I'm certain.

[bob9]

STOP START. 2 Of my friends banged out today, but obviously they are not cool because they are not SH. I also hope that when then arrived at the hospital that they were mocked for wearing flying suits not CS 95. The respect from fast jet crews for SH in the stan is absolute take my word for it. It would seem that that just because some guys wear different clothes in the DFAC then its not mutual.

[Fire 'n' Forget]

Any similarity between flight deck age and mission crew IQ was purely coincidental, I'm certain

He He :ok: E3 flight deck is the RAF equivalent of gods waiting room (or last chance OCU), in this case its beauty before age :ouch:

[Nibbled2DeathByDucks]

You're barking up the wrong tree - Stoppers is not SH and, like the rest of us on his fleet, have the utmost respect for ALL crews (except T*) currently deployed. It just makes us smile that you can't prise some away from their beloved growbags!

[BEagle]

In the early days of the VC10K, one 10 Sqn truckie asked why we wore flying suits on the VC10K, whereas they always wore blues on the VC10.

"Because chinagraph makes such a mess on blue trousers", was one co-pilot (ex-Jaguars) logical reply.

Some trucky captains on 10 Sqn even had clip-on ties for those moments when they used to go and 'talk to the passengers' - whilst wearing their SD caps, of course..... Clip-on ties, I ask you. How distressingly lower order...:uhoh:

I agree with this totally. All of the above uniforms (except the green flying suits and CS95) can be seen in use at KAF, with various combinations - e.g. which of the 4 possible smocks/jackets is the correct one to wear over a desert flying suit whilst out around KAF? Which way out do you wear the reversible thermal jacket? Throw in a mixture of belts (green and desert) and hats (desert and MTP floppies with brims of varying size, berets, even the odd chip bag on some of the many senior officers) and suddenly we look like a bag o'****e.. I know it's not important in the grand scheme of things but it just looks a bit crap compared to the identi-kitted US Army, USAF, RCAF, etc...Hasn't the RAF learned after all these years - or is there some tradition of looking so scruffy? It was just as bad at RAF Mount Pleasant, anywhere during Gulf War 1, Incirlik AB etc. etc...... There was an attempt to standardise flying suit badges to make the wearers look less like spotters, but the TLP and/or Red Flag folk didn't much like that.

[parabellum]

I have read this thread right through and my point may have been well made already and I've missed it, or not understood some of the acronyms, if so apologies.

If crewing an aircraft that goes into or near the FEBA would it not be best for the crew, if the aircraft becomes disabled, for them to be wearing kit that is more suitable to their new conditions and also may allow them to merge with the ground troops and not be singled out for 'special' treatment if captured? I think I would prefer to look just like one of the 'lads' and without any special badges or brevets.

[Easy Street]

wearing kit that is more suitable to their new conditions and also may allow them to merge with the ground troops and not be singled out for 'special' treatment if captured? I think I would prefer to look just like one of the 'lads' and without any special badges or brevets.

That was one of the theories behind the fire retardant CS95. Unfortunately, as already mentioned, the colour is different from the standard desert CS95 - to use the 'piss colour' analogy already proferred, the fire retardant stuff is a couple of steps closer to dehydration. Still, it's a reasonably subtle difference. A more obvious point would be the aircrew's lack of body armour / helmet / daysack (for a fast jet ejectee, anyway; I guess RW/ME guys might have time to grab theirs depending on the severity of any post-crash fire). And of course, our FR CS95 no longer blends in with UK ground forces as they are all wearing a different camouflage pattern now!

As for badges, ground forces seem to have overtaken aircrew in the badge fetish stakes... DZ flashes, TRFs, service badges, specialist badges galore! Aircrew fly fully "sanitised", although quite why the Taliban would care which squadron you were from somewhat escapes me.

[Father Jack Hackett]

I would echo Easy Street's sentiments about trying to impersonate ground-pounders in an E & E scenario. In any case, if the Taliban did get their mitts on you, your sartorial choices would be forcibly rendered moot with the orange boiler suit you'd be sporting on your YouTube debut.......

Personally I'd prefer to wear kit that's optimised for flying and, come the worst, surviving the crash..... and carry sufficient personal weapons and ammunition to brass the feckers up until the cavalry arrives!

[Grabbers]

Father Jack

I doubt whether anyone would be able to carry sufficient personal weapons and ammunition to brass the feckers up until the cavalry arrives! Carry enough for personal defence/comfort whilst on the run but I would advocate prioritising the clothing that combines camouflage and comfort. Outrunning/hiding from 'them' is your only realistic option I. You'd lose a firefight rather quickly I fear.

Of course you could always fly Tri*. As long as you could outrun the 30st 'stewardess' in spray on coverall you'd be fine. They wouldn't know whether to f**k, climb, or eat her. :ok:

[Biggus]

If we are fighting a more conventional type of war, once captured by the enemy they can expect you to state your name, rank, service number,...etc (big 6).

In which case, no matter what you are wearing, when you state your rank as Flt Sgt, Fg Off, Flt Lt, Sqn Ldr, etc it is fairly obvious that you are in the RAF.

Only Sgts have some chance of passing unnoticed....and I wouldn't hold your breath, no doubt the service number would be a giveaway.







I could never understand why the Iraqi interrogations seemed so keen to determine which of Peters and Nichol were the pilot or Nav - other than that it was a crack in their "sticking to the big4/6" approach. Given that the service numbers had been offered up, a simple check in a copy of the RAF list, obtainable at the time from HMSO, would have told them who was the pilot....

[Father Jack Hackett]

The Taliban may be relatively primitive but they're anything but stupid. That coupled with the proximity of the burning aircraft is liable to make any attempts at cunningly disguising oneself as an infanteer mostly futile....

[gijoe]

FJH hits the nail on the head - primitive, yes, stupid, no, effective, very!

Flight of foot would be the best option and avoiding getting caught the second. The Taliban are not idiots and getting their hands on anyone, pilot, WSO, or Pte would be a win for them.

30 stone of moving stewardess flying suit does not paint a pretty picture. The VPL on a flight back made even the most female company starved Booties on one of my exit journeys squirm a little..but only a little after 6 months!

What was the nickname conjured up by a septic who saw her in a hotel swimming pool? The Iceberg?

With her bikini top out of the water 7/8 of the mass remains below the waterline!

G:ok: