Endorsements - Who's shout?

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

I'd be interested to know who in GA Land pays for their own endorsements (either employed at the time or under an offer of employment).

First charter-sized aircraft - Funded by Self or Employer?

Second charter-sized aircraft - Funded by Self or Employer?

Subsequent charter-sized aircraft - Funded by Self or Employer?

I am not here to cast stones, pass judgement or blame anyone for "degrading the profession" rather I'd simply like to know the historical and current state of play.

Personally, after getting my initial on a Seneca II I paid for my C310 endo (I was already employed by a C310 owner and this was my chance to move up).

After 50 hours PIC on the C310 I got a job offer which required me to obtain my own BE58 endo but pay for a PA31. I thought that this was fair (I was not made to sign a bond or return of service agreement but I would have happily signed for 6 months for the PA31).

My belief is that as a loyal full-time employee it is my employer's responsibility to up-skill me as well as ensure that I have the tools to stay current (IR renewals, night circuits etc). In exchange I would expect to be asked to guarantee a return of service on a sliding scale (nothing silly of course; 10 years for murder, 2 years for a widebody, 16 mos for a Dash-8 and maybe 6 mos for a Chieftain). All based on cost of course.

How long (if any time at all) should a bond for a $2,500 endo be?

FRQ CB

[tmpffisch]

My current employer pays for endorsements, and bonds you for a suitable period.
6-12 months seems reasonable depending on the issues the operator faces with pilot attrition, and I agree, should definitely be pro rata.

[KRUSTY 34]

Employer paid endorsements in G/A!

Crikey FRQ'. Must be a different G/A to the one I came from. :eek:

[Fonz121]

I paid for a PA44 endorsement when I was doing my commercial training (stupid idea, don't do it kids) but haven't paid for a thing since I got my first job.

Company has paid for uniform, Jepps, renewals and all twin endorsements I've needed.

[triadic]

Have never paid for a M/E endorsement. Employer has covered the lot with no bonds - but seems things are different now!! Sad!!:{

[Xcel]

I included some 200 series tome in my cpl training. After that never paid a thing. 4 commercial twin endos (Seneca-bn2-310-402/4) with no attachments, a turbine (208) no attachments, for which I was even sent interstate to do. Just got my first multi turbine multi crew and got bonded 20k pro rata 2 years - first attached condition.

They are out there you don't need to sell your soul. I refuse to pay for an endorsement and missed out on many a job because of it. But I can happily say noone but my flying club will ever get a cent from me!!

[Anthill]

I paid for every endorsement in GA (5) and my employers have paid for every (7) heavy type rating that I hold. The rapid turnover in GA means that employers would be perpetually paying for light twin endorsements as pilots leave chasing a better/bigger/faster aeroplane to fly. As a consequence, they don't, as a rule, do this.

Edit- I think I come from Krusty's GA. After reading some of the above, perhaps it has become normal for GA companies to pay for type ratings.

[notaplanegeek]

If everyone stuck together and didn't pay then we wouldn't have to pay, simple.

[waren9]

Cost me a Seneca endo as part of my Multi SPIFR qual. Was prepared to pay for a PA-31 but the bill never came. I guess the owner figured I had been sweeping the hanger floor for long enough.

One employer then gave me 3 other GA multi ratings in the space of a year with no bond at all. I worked hard but he was very generous. Still feel like I owe him something for that.

I think 6 months for a $2500 endo is fair enough.

[Chadzat]

Never paid for a twin endorsement (apart from initial twin training in a BE58) so that was BE58, PA31, C404 and B200 all free with no bond- just gentleman's agreements. Only thing I was bonded for in GA were Instrument Rating Renewals as they were done on company aircraft and type that was flown in the last few months.

[training wheels]

Just got type rated on a 60 seater, multi-turbo prop. Employer paid for everything including 3 weeks overseas for the simulator. Only obligation is a 2 year, $18k bond, reducing pro-rata. It's my first multi engine endorsement (not including initial twin endorsement for the MECIR). Never could afford to pay for any GA multi endorsements in the past.

[Pinky the pilot]

Like Chadzat, Paid for initial twin endo (Seneca 1) when doing CPL.
Also did one IFR renewal in Seminole so paid for that.

Only had to pay for the fuel used when doing a C401/411 endorsement way back in the late 80's.

Never paid for one since. Nor will I.

[The Green Goblin]

I paid for my BE76 as part of my CIR-ME.

All my multi engine piston endorsements where paid for.

I was bonded between 12 and 24 months for turbine endorsements for amounts between $6000 and $12000.

GG

[KRUSTY 34]

For all you guys who had your G/A twin endo's covered by your employer, well done. However, who paid for the balance of your 10 hours on type?

I'm assuming ICUS. Maybe I just wasn't fortunate enough to work for such structured and stable operators! :(

[Dangly Bits]

My old boss used to make us pay for our own Instructor renewals, upgrades, CiR renewals AND aircraft hire at normal rates. No discount! Just so we could make him rich!

Glad I'm not there anymore.

[717tech]

I only paid for my initial in a BE55, the other 3 were paid for by the company including ICUS!

[The Green Goblin]

who paid for the balance of your 10 hours on type?

This is called line training mate!

It's usually only about 5 flights with a senior Pilot or the Chief Pilot anyway. This is the cost of doing business in this country.

[Jack Ranga]

This is the cost of doing business

And any good accountant (or accounting soft ware) will help you set up a chart of accounts that tracks the cost of goods. An operator then charges a client for this not rip off his/her employees to undercut competitors

My old boss used to make us pay for our own Instructor renewals, upgrades, CiR renewals AND aircraft hire at normal rates. No discount! Just so we could make him rich!

I'd wager a bet that this 'operator' also didn't pay award rates. It'll only happen whilst pilots allow it to happen.

[kalavo]

CIR/ME in a Baron. Every endo since paid for since by the company.

Only bond has been 12 months for an ME Turbine, however more of a gentleman's agreement and the guys who've left after more than 6 months haven't been asked to pay for it.

[anothertwit]

Same here, paid for first one doing MECIR. Haven't paid for one since! ;) Have missed a few jobs because I wouldn't pay for them.

As far as dodgy operators are concerned, they are only still operating because some people will sell their souls for a few hours in the logbook! :=

Nothing will change until WE change it!!! :ouch:

[Mach E Avelli]

Many operators who have tried to bond pilots have had them skip and not pay. Bonds are almost impossible to enforce. For an initial expensive jet endorsement one way around this is to have pilots post a bank guarantee which is discharged automatically if they get laid off or the company goes belly-up. Otherwise after two years the pilot is free of the guarantee. The only problem with that is some pilots may not be able to show the bank enough collateral. However, somehow for a shiny jet they will always come up with it. Sell the car and ride a pushie, whatever... The good thing about doing it this way is that out-of-pocket is limited to a small annual bank fee to carry the guarantee.
The latest strategy appears to be to 'loan' the pilot the cost of the endorsement and have it paid back via wage deductions. If the pilot serves an agreed time, the money is then credited back to him/her. Which probably wouldn't stop the pilot defaulting on the loan, but if it was structured legally, the pilot would then cop a bad credit rating, so it would not be very clever to try to get out of it. It wouldn't stop an unscrupulous operator from snivelling on the pay-back either, but that's what lawyers are for. Maybe the AFAP needs to devote some time to drafting two-way enforceable agreements for this type of arrangement.
However, piston endorsements are not that costly. Any operator who can't afford 3 to 5 hours of free time in a twin to train a new pilot should not be allowed to trade. They are already insolvent, because they can't meet normal costs of running their business - training being a normal cost in aviation.
Twin turbines are a different matter because they do cost serious dollars to run, so some return of service guarantee from the pilot is a reasonable ask. But it need not involve the pilot's money up-front.

[Waghi Warrior]

Get a job with Tiger Airways,they will shout you a free Airbus endorsement ! With no strings attached !

[The Green Goblin]

One scheme which has caught on overseas is you need to get a loan for the endorsement amount in YOUR name. The company will then pay the loan for you (and the interest) over the agreed term. If you leave before the agreed period, the company stops paying the loan and you are left to carry it. If you stay for the agreed term, they pay it off completely and you are free to go.

I hope it doesn't catch on here though, my credit rating was not exactly AAA in my entry to GA!