Employed by CASA ?

[Hotpot]

I'm seeking information on the pros and cons of taking up a job with CASA,in particular a role as a FOI. Can anyone in particular who has taken this step pass on any constructive advise/help,wether it be positive or negative.

I am currently employed in GA and I'm looking at what kind of positive things this kind of a position can do for ones career,if I decide to move on later on. Eventually I would like to get involved in aviation auditing and management. Also what is the transition like from being fulltime in the cockpit to taking on such a challenging role,in particular with the aspects of learning the rules and regulations from a regulators point of view,opposed to an operators/pilots point of view.

Please feel free to post you comments,but please don't post sarcastic rubbish. I am fully aware that some people may have mixed and varied views on CASA for a large range of reasons.

[gobbledock]

hmmm. I am exercising great restraint here.
Best of sending a PM to Frank Arouet, he will give you a pretty good and accurate summary of what to expect. Otherwise Nick Xenaphon may be able to advise you !

[Frank Arouet]

Sorry buddy;

I can't think of one positive thing.

I'll tell you one thing though. FOI's are trained under the "mentoring" system. This divorces you from any initiative or self determination and instills all the bad habits that perpetuate with each generation.

Good luck.

[Capt Fathom]

in particular with the aspects of learning the rules and regulations from a regulators point of view,opposed to an operators/pilots point of view

Just to confirm what we always knew! :mad:

[PA39]

Get it right......CASA works for US....our taxes pay their salaries ! :rolleyes:

[Horatio Leafblower]

Hot pot, if you want management experience then I suggest you get yourself a management job in private enterprise. THAT is management. Being a worker bee in CASA isn't much of a window on what it takes to make a business run and keep your staff between the lines, much less on what it takes to successfuly do the "business" thing ie: making money.

Chief Pilot roles are, conversely, an excellent opportunity to build rapport with people in CASA and to understand CASA's expectations of what "compliance" really is about. As a CP I have always tried to be open to the FOI's I am dealing with and I think that has, by and large, been reciprocated.

Neil :mad: is the exception to that... but anyway... :suspect:

I have toyed with the idea of working for CASA for years.

The ONLY thing that's attractive about working for CASA is the stable income and the job security.

I couldn't live with the politics and the policy constraints that would be a strait-jacket to your work every day. I don't think I could stand to be in a position of "power" while watching a lot of GA businesses wither (rightly or wrongly).

I get on pretty well with the CASA people I know but would I want their job?

...only if it was the last job available to me on earth :ugh: :yuk:

[VH-XXX]

Not much different to being a police officer. You enforce the laws, you don't make them.

[tail wheel]

Yes. But at least there is logical Traffic legislation which has not been subject to re-write for the past 23 years.

And Police are fully and thoroughly trained through an academy.

And the Police Forces are accountable to State Parliaments.

[T28D]

Tailwheel, AH the "rule of law" whole heartedly agree with you, accountability, something you just don't see in CASA from top down.

[bankrunner]

The wife recently got out of CASA.

Great place to work if you don't like having any sort of support or real backing or strategic direction from the top of the organisation in what you do, and if you don't mind joining well meaning people in putting your heart and soul into work that, at the end of the day, ultimately counts for nothing as far as aviation safety is concerned because of this.

ATSB, on the other hand, is supposedly a pretty damned good place to work.

[Frank Arouet]

You enforce the laws, you don't make them.

CASA OLC write the laws, CASA administer the laws, police the laws, and prosecute those breaking their laws. They then administer vigorous public funded justice under those laws and your right of appeal is handicapped by an AAT process that does not award costs even if you win.

The Federal Police refuse to take action on alleged criminal misuse of these laws and complaints to The Commonwealth Ombudsman include the hurdle of an Industry Compliants Commissioner employed by CASA.

I have never seen a more naive statement to the quote above.:uhoh:

[Rose_Thorns]

tmpffisch, sincere apologies, but honest, just couldn't, (I tried ask Joyce over there) but I just could not help myself.

Thank you for finding these delightful moments.

Guys - You Tube; Tommy's new job - BBC 1.

He would fit in so well.:D:D:Dhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[Worrals in the wilds]

In my experience, working for the government is fairly soul sucking. You are part of the Leviathan, so don't expect to be rewarded for initiative, hard work or actually fixing things. On the contrary, this sort of thing will be regarded with deep suspicion and you will be seen as a troublemaker.

Your mission (should you choose to accept it :E) will be to make as few waves as possible, keep your boss looking shiny, make sure your own promotion path is secure at all times and keep the Minister off the front page of The Australian.

If you want a secure job with reasonable money and you don't care what you do at work, the APS is a viable career option. If you have any degree of initiative, ambition and/or a desire to achieve outcomes in the real world (rather than just on paper) stick with the private sector.

Of course this is just my 2 Turk lirasi. I haven't worked for CASA but I am an ex federal public servant and still have a lot of friends there in various departments. Despite the lack of security, getting out and going to the private sector was the best career decision I EVER made.

[Hotpot]

Thanks for all the positive responses, I didn't realize that so many people send our CASA friends Christmas cards !

Also thankyou to those who sent me PMs.

[Frank Arouet]

Wind up alert!

[Andy_RR]

Why am I completely not surprised that an organisation with a bottomless budget and no commercial imperative can offer their employees a great salary, training and self-development opportunites and be "the best job in aviation I have had so far"?

Wow GreatLife - sounds like they got the very type they were looking for to fill the role. I mean, being an aviation regulator will mean there are plenty of feathers available for the nest, eh?

[Frank Arouet]

Send me a message and I'll be more than happy to have a chat.

Anybody contemplating sending GreatLife a PM remember the oft quoted "We're from CASA are we're here to help you".

Do so at your peril.

GreatLife is welcome to PM me with his details any time he feels so inclined. I will keep those details confidential;

I promise.:suspect:

[Stan van de Wiel]

The rise and rise of the regulators
• Robin Speed
• From:The Australian
• January 15, 2010 12:00AM
•
IN 2009, more than 50,000 pages of new laws were enacted at the federal, state and territory levels. These were in addition to the 100,000s of pages of existing laws.
The consequences are serious. The first is that Australia will cease to be a world leader in being governed in accordance with the rule of law, and instead become ruled by law (there being a fundamental difference). Secondly, the rule of law will be progressively replaced by the rule of the regulator, the antithesis of the rule of law.
As the number and complexities of laws increase, there is a corresponding decrease in knowing and voluntarily observing the laws by the community. And, as it becomes practically impossible for the community to know, let alone apply the law, ensuring compliance is passed to the persons charged with administering the laws - such as ASIC, ACCC, ATO - the regulators. However, it is not practical for the regulators to enforce the mass of laws against everyone, nor even against one person, all the time. They therefore announce how they will apply the law, impose penalties on those who act otherwise, and reward those who act in accordance with their blessings. A few are prosecuted as a warning to the rest of the community. In this way, the rule of the regulator begins.
The result is a fundamental shift in the relationship between the individual and the law. Increasingly, the relationship is not of the individual knowing and complying with what the law states, but of knowing and complying with what the regulators state the law states, and then knowing the extent to which the regulators will apply the law as stated by them.
For many, the new relationship focuses on not being seen by the regulators; keeping the lowest possible profile on those matters that the regulators prioritise for enforcement. What is of practical importance is the relationship of the individual with the regulators. For in such an environment few have the time, fortitude or money to be visible to the regulators and to apply the law in a way that differs from the one taken by the regulators. This new relationship can also be readily observed by the practical necessity of going cap in hand to the regulators for approval to carry out many transactions. For example, in the last eight years the ATO has issued more than 80,000 private rulings on what it says the law says (these rulings became law to the applicant, regardless of what the High Court might declare the law to mean for the rest of the community). No new law administers itself. More and more people are required to be employed by regulators to enforce an increasing number of laws. This becomes difficult, and the next stage in the shift to regulator rule begins.
One of the first signs of this shift is the conferral on the regulators of more and more powers of search, access to private property, detention, telephone tapping, together with the increase in penalties. This happens not because a material number of Australians have suddenly become terrorists or members of organised crime. Rather, the intimidation of existing powers is believed insufficient to obtain compliance, so greater powers and harsher penalties are deemed necessary. Yet the futility of forcing compliance in this way was seen centuries ago by the penalty of hanging for stealing a loaf of bread. Further, the regulators increasingly find it difficult before an independent court to obtain a conviction. The regulators know that a crime has been committed but are frustrated because they have not the powers to get the evidence or get the court to agree with their view of the law. For those who doubt whether Australia is at this stage, they need look no further than the recent unsuccessful prosecutions by ASIC.
One of the other signs of the rule of the regulator is the attempt to reverse the onus of proof so that the regulators can get convictions to send a clear message to the rest of the community. The Australian courts are a real impediment to regulators in this regard as they insist that no one is presumed to be guilty unless proved so. However, if an Act reverses the onus of proof a court can do nothing. The legislative attempts to reverse the onus of proof come in several forms, often behind a government announcement (regardless of political persuasion) that it is "streamlining" or "codifying" the existing laws. This is often accompanied by government publicity demonising the group to be subject to the new law. It is fundamental to the Australian way of life that everyone, whether an alleged terrorist or member of organised crime group, or an ordinary Australian, is presumed to be innocent until the prosecution proves otherwise. Any attempts to weaken that principle must be strongly and loudly resisted.
Robin Speed is president of the Rule of Law Association of Australia.


COMMENTS ON THIS STORY
• Paul Phelan of Mount Beauty Posted at 6:16 PM January 16, 2010
Congratulations! Almost every word of Mr Speed's article had relevance to the activities of the legal and compliance/enforcement offices of our aviation regulator. Their success rate in court and in the AAT is deservedly appalling, yet the organisation's track record in shutting down or damaging businesses and destroying the jobs of individuals through "administrative decisions" is awesome. With an aviation industry background and more recently as an aviation writer, I have followed and documented many dozens of such cases, and the most concerning aspect is the ability of wrong-doers at the regulatory body to evade scrutiny and retribution. One reason for this is the legal adventurism that is enabled by an apparently bottomless budget, and another is the lack of external legal oversight. I had literally no idea this malaise was so endemic across so many industries. Is there an acceptable end in sight?

[Worrals in the wilds]

"the best job in aviation I have had so far"?
...but how many jobs has the poster had in aviation so far? :E

I know people at EL2 who aren't that enthusiastic about their career. The post reminds me of the recruitment blurbs on the big departmental websites (Airservices has similar) by some poor noob who's been strongarmed into writing an 'it's all awesome here' article with a cheesy photo attached. Sometimes they're genuine but usually only when the author has been there for about a week and a half and had a previous job cleaning out used wheelie bins. :} Sorry if that's not the case in this instance.

In fairness, as stated by happy chappy government departments usually do have a lot of training options available (management courses, degrees and the like) and generous study allowances. If further education floats your boat the APS can be a good way to work and study at the same time. In this regard, their conditions are better than most private companies can afford to offer.

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with joining the public service if you're happy to deal with the shortcomings and disadvantages, but go in with your eyes open to the pitfalls. It saves getting jaded and/or frustrated.

P.S. Out of interest, why can't I access that user's public profile? Everyone else's is fine, but I get a 'you do not have permission to view this page' message for that one. :confused:

[VH-XXX]

On probation maybe?

[my oleo is extended]

GreatLife,
Your enthusiasm and poitive outlook on life is truly inspiring. Do you have any classmates that are also equally motivated and and so positive ? If so they could well and truly be in the box seat to be CEO or Senior Management of some of the current airlines.

I support your well honed attitude as it really meshes well with today's aviation environment which itself is in better shape than any time in history - it is dynamic, enthusiastic, loyal, and an excellent career choice. But make sure you ignore any negative comments or disparaging remarks you will see as many aviators who grace the pages of PPRune simply haven't embraced aviation's dynamic leaders and managers the way you have.

So, youngster, I raise a popsicle stick to you and salute your energy and zest for the aviator life and look forward to hearing more of your career progression over the coming decades....

[thorn bird]

Great life,

I thought for a while you were a wind up, but then I thought dont be negative, I guess " To each his own"

I admire your rose coloured glasses attitude, maybe, just maybe if you have a passion for the industry you might make a difference, but you have a hell of a mountain to climb.

To many within the industry you are no longer part of it, you have crossed the Rubecon and joined the "Enemy" which is endemically corrupt, and infected with people of dubious probity.

Rightly or wrongly, IMHO that is how CASA is perceived by a large majority of those who work & rely on GA for their daily bread, those that have a passion for it.
The trust has gone, so many people I know who will no longer talk with CASA without their lawyer present, or a tape recorder on the table, such is the level of mistrust, its tragic.

It is OUR "shame" as an industry that we tolerated this growing corruption and allowed it to thrive instead of retreating behind the barricades and presenting a united front.
We allowed the beaurocrats to divide us and as a result dictate instead of consult.
The greatest mistake we as an industry made was not uniting and insisting our Pollies direct that our regulator consider the economic impact of their regulations...."To foster and promote" in the same manner as the FAA.

A simple comparison of the state of the industry here, compared with there, should be indicitive of the way it should work. A simple comparison of NZ, PNG, Canada, compared with here should be an indication of how it should work, can anyone imagine that "Ice Pilots" could work in Australia??

Since our system has become criminal, who the hell is going to talk to the police?? given that the supposed Law, deliberately written to be indeciphearable!!
The law has become a function of the opinion of a public servant not a judge. Who has a monopoly on knowledge???. Where a public servant can and have used "Their opinion" to remove someones ability to earn their livelyhood, have closed down businesses and thrown many out of work based on their "opinion". Not even our police have that right!! Ah but then there's always the safety excuse!!
"In the interests of safety".great spin doctors sound bite..but are our outcomes any better than anyone elses???...dosnt seem so!! in fact pathetically we run way behind, "Statistically"...So who's doing it right??...Our industry is dying, and our safety record is going down the toilet as well!! CASA's spin doctors will manipulate statistics to suit their warped view of things. At the end of the day facts dont lie, we are so far behind the rest of the world it dosnt matter, we are non compliant with worlds best practice, and still the faceless beaurocrats insist that the rest of the world is wrong and we are right.

We reap what we sow, or ignore, now it comes back to bite us.

So Mr great life, enjoy your appointment and your six figure salary and massive super payout, I hope the industry survives long enough for you to achieve your personel goals, but if you have a tiny passion for aviation, I hope you will apply your talents to affecting change, and if you are a person of Probity expose the corruption that is destroying CASA's credibility, and destroying an industry.

[thorn bird]

Mr oleo,

I support your well honed attitude as it really meshes well with today's aviation environment which itself is in better shape than any time in history - it is dynamic, enthusiastic, loyal, and an excellent career choice. But make sure you ignore any negative comments or disparaging remarks you will see as many aviators who grace the pages of PPRuNe simply haven't embraced aviation's dynamic leaders and managers the way you have.

Oh dear oh dear, surely you Jest!!!, or are you related to the "Skull"??

[Worrals in the wilds]

My last job was cleaning out wheelie bins - how did you know?

Goodo, then given your location you probably worked with a mate of mine in Rocklea doing exactly that, although I don't know how the floods have affected their reconditioned wheelie bin business (honestly, Officer, none of them have been pinched from council parks, really! :}). They do quite well out of it, actually.

After all, I'm from CASA and I'm here to help

I was more at the "I'm from the government and I'm here to kick your door in" end of the spectrum, but I suppose it takes all sorts. Anyway, it's good that you're happy, nice when people find their niche.

Just one thing though, does CASA allow its employees to publically identify themselves as employees and post comment on bulletin boards, even 'anonymously'? I only ask because my department certainly didn't and swung a couple of people from the departmental flag pole for doing so (they must be having conniptions about FaceYawn etc :E). I realise you may have a second user name for general banter.

To the OP all the best whatever decision you make. :)
BTW, never do anything on a government computer that you wouldn't want your Mum to see/know about, and never say anything in a government office that you wouldn't want your boss to hear, even if there's no-one else in the room (that's what carparks are for, cover your mouth when you talk and don't always use the same spot).
It's surprising how many public servants forget that.

[layman]

Not a frequent poster - life-long interest in aviation but not employed in it (or any related industry) - but did spend a considerable number of my 40+ working years in the public sector (with many years in the private and education sectors too).

Govt agencies are like life - some of it good, some aweful (not dissimilar in the private sector). Depends largely on people there at the time, and what you want from your job. Job satisfaction and rewards are very different. "Public Service" (service to the public?) was for me (and many colleagues) the main reward.

And if you think that people don't like CASA, I've worked in govt agencies where threats were sufficiently common that addresses do not appear on business cards. And it isn't ATO!

cheers
layman

[max1]

but the vast majority of operators and individuals in industry you work with have an excellent relationship with CASA.

Are these the other middle managers you fly around to meet with to organise more meetings to 'consult' with 'industry stakeholders' and talk about 'delivering the future', 'worlds best practice' .

'There are opportunities for leadership and management positions and a heap of training courses available both internally and externally'.
It is also great that you can expand your qualifications on the company dime, these new qualifications must assist when you have your annual performance and salary review to justify your increase.
As CASA now operate in the real world, you are probably on a 'perform or out contract'. To reflect the knife -edge you operate on there is probably a large component that reflects the perilous nature of your employment, where one wrong decision can see you shown the door.
Did anyone mention corporate credit card and 'company' maintained leasing.

[my oleo is extended]

GreatLife,
Do ignore the critics. You have many many good years ahead of you in which your talents and your thirst for success will be very well quenched.
It is dynamo's such as yourself that will ensure that aviation continues to hold its place at the top of the enviable list of career's to embrace.
Never before has aviation been such a satisfying, rewarding, profitable, fair and morally fulfilling choice ! You won't be disapointed.


Oh dear oh dear, surely you Jest!!!, or are you related to the "Skull"??

thorn bird, your comment although it hurts my feelings slightly, is really more of a compliment than anything, and for that I truly embrace you. However I must express my dismay and concern for the lack of respect you exhibit by using the term "Skull". Would one simply call the President of the United States 'Barack', or Mr President ? Or would one simply call Prime Minister Gillard 'Julia'? I think not.
I feel a lack of respect is the problem with our society and the 'moral compass' has lost direction. I would suggest in future that you show dignity, graciousness and respect for those in society AND aviation that hold,deserve and command a higher degree of respect - regulators, CEO's, baggage handler's etc.

A toast to the future .......

[Frank Arouet]

show dignity, graciousness and respect

By whom to whom exactly?

Now I know the thread is a wind up.

[RV6]

Oleo
The key word there is 'deserve'. We probably would if it was deserved. Merely 'commanding' with nothing to back it up just doesn't wash. Respect has to be earned.

[Andy_RR]

A toast to your satirical skills, Oleo! Faint praise is so last century...