Hoping someone with a bit of legal skill can help.
Just got home to find one of these lovely demands on my doormat
Apparently I overstayed my 60 minute welcome by 10 mins, at 0310 on 10/1.
What they have failed to realise was I used the drive through twice while I was there, although I don't have receipts to prove this.
Should I just write back telling them to jog on?

There's quite a bit of stuff on the Daily Telegraph online motoring sections about private parking "fines" - which they ain't - only the law can fine.

A good start is here. (http://w3ww.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=86901)

Previous link seems to be mostly about Council enforced parking..

Aerospark,

Depending on how deep you want to take this:

1 - see below

2 - write and tell them that you didn't overstay for the reasons you stated (two visits). Tell them that they should provide proof of your overstay, including proof that you didn't visit twice, otherwise you will 'consider the matter closed'. Stick to your guns, and make it clear you are quite happy to argue your case in court. Tell them that you consider that the matter is in dispute with them - this should stop them selling your debt to a collection agency.

Whatever you do, don't pay the demanded sum - it is not a legal charge (as, for example a council parking fine, which is) and you will have no problems proving in court that it is grossly excessive for the alleged overstay.

ll

Edited 'cos I was wrong about no 1! Thanks to Mixture and Nearly There.

If it's not from the gubmint, they have no legal standing to fine you, I believe. I got a similar one from Lidl a few years ago. I simply ignored it. They sent several notices threatening legal action but for the 5 quid fine (or whatever it was), I figured they weren't going to go through the expense but were hoping more to intimidate me into paying something they had no right to charge.

Never heard another word.

Llandemos,


1 - write back with a cheque for £5 in 'full and final payment' as 'a reasonable charge for the alleged overstay'. This will probably result in no further action.



I'm no legal eagle, but it's not up to you to declare it a 'full and final payment'. Afterall, you can't go into a shop, buy a TV and seriously think you're going to get away with writing them a cheque for £1 declaring it is full and final payment.

I would say that if the original poster has an issue with the amount being demanded, he should enter into correspondance, explaining in a structured, methodological manner the reasons why he feels that way, avoiding any harsh words etc.

Surely they will have CCTV. Tell them to go back through all the tapes for the time in question, also say that your solicitor has requested the tapes and a list of all staff on duty at the time who may be called to testify as witnesses in a court case.:ok:

Mixture,

Sort of correct, but by saying that it is 'full and final payment' the onus is on them to come back and say it isn't. This is often too much trouble. Also, if they cash the cheque, then they have accepted your conditions which makes it full and final. The television analogy is wrong as the store could accept your offer of £1 (otherwise known as haggling, on an extreme and, usually, pointless scale) but, if they don't and you leave with the TV then it is theft.

Metro Man,

This should only be done if a solicitor has actually been consulted and if this advice has been given. Otherwise, if it comes to court, and you have made a false statement you will not have come with 'clean hands' which will seriously weaken your argument. It is far simpler to just state your case and ask for proof that you have overstayed.

ll

teetering head has it in one, they cannot fine you, it would not stand up in court. They will bluster with letters and threats and if you are able to ignore these then you are best to just file it in the bin. It's all on the web and if you correspond with them it helps them.

Aerospark,

Here's a link to the Consumer Action Group, specifically on this topic. Basically, they're issuing you with an invoice, not a parking ticket. They try to intimidate people with official-looking letters from 'debt-collectors' and 'solicitors' which are actually sub-groups in their own company. Follow the advice on the forum, and don't enter into any correspondence with them.

UKPC parking invoice (http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?63235-UKPC-parking-invoice/page117)

They WILL cash the £5 cheque, and argue they never agreed or even entered into conversation with you as to it being full and final, but cash it as a payment towards the £60.

The onus is on them to prove you overstayed, which is irrelevant anyway, stand your ground as they have no legal rights to collect..

If you were there TWICE in one day, you could explain to the manager in very polite terms that they shouldn't fine you for spending money there. You could mention, politely, that if they didn't like repeat customers, you will go elsewhere.

(And advise your friends to avoid the place.)

The car park usually has nothing to do with the store manager, it will be contracted out to a private firm.

Thanks for all the advice.
I possibly didn't explain that very well, by using the drive thru twice I didn't actually leave the car park, but surely by spending money in the shop I am entitled to use the car park while consuming my purchase? And the amount they want is £100, or £50 if paid within 14 days. For ten minutes! Nice work if you can get it...:mad:

Llademos

Also, if they cash the cheque, then they have accepted your conditions which makes it full and final.

If only the world were that simple. :cool:

Nearly there is along the right lines.....

They WILL cash the £5 cheque, and argue they never agreed or even entered into conversation with you as to it being full and final, but cash it as a payment towards the £60.


Ever since the dawn of contract law there have been many battles over the old "war of words scenario" where one party seeks to impose their terms on another in an attempt to overrule the standard terms of the first party.

(And advise your friends to avoid the place.)

I'd advise my friends to avoid McDonalds any day... but that's another story. :cool:

Go and visit here for loads of advice

Dealing with "tickets" from Private Parking Companies (PPCs) - FightBack Forums (http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=46975)

I have had two of these when customers have overstayed.There is nothing they can do unless they can prove who the driver is as opposed to the keeper.The last one received the address of one Padraig McGinty of goat fame.

Wan't this covered here a couple of years ago?

Have a look on the BBC Watchdog programme website: they did something specifically about MuckDonalds quite recently.

There is nothing they can do unless they can prove who the driver was as opposed to the keeper.
Exactly. :ok:
Any contract (if there is one) is with the driver.

Some supermarkets now have a similar scam at some of their branches, usually involving not parking in designated spaces rather than over-staying.

The supermarkets get a cut of the money their contractors extort from car-owners who are taken in when they receive an official looking letter, are intimidated by the various threats it contains and pay the outrageous sum demanded.

Unless there is no alternative, I don't shop at those supermarkets as a matter of principle.

Had this happen when driving some friends to an airport, due to traffic they were late being dropped off plus I was shattered at the race to get them there, had a hire car.

Stopped in McD and knew I would probably stay over 1 hour, accordingly I went and indicated I would likely stay over 1 hour and asked to sign in the book, they will all have a visitors book. Accordingly any overstay is done with consent of manager and you cannot be charged for it.

Hire car got a ticket and paid it and charged me, got a copy of said photo and wrote off demanding a refund to Parking company, never responded but called them up giving all the details and they emailed the branch and within 24 hours they called me back apologising as they should never have charged me as aI was a legitimate overstayer.

Worth remembering for anybody in the future to avoid this.

It's not a fine, it's an unenforceable invoice, follow goldfrogs link in post 17.

Tell them your an employee and didnt use your normal car.

My sister works for McD and you have to register your car when you join to avoid parking tickets whilst at work!

I had the same from the same McDonalds. I was doing my ATPL exams at Gatwick and thought I would get there early to miss the traffic and use their WiFi. I sat there for over an hour buying a couple of coffes and breakfast and no one told me. A week later the letter came through the door.

Ring up McDonalds and explain that you were there working and buying food/drink. The manager got mine written off.

Tell them you were stuck on the bog crapping out their rotten food that gave you a stomach upset.

Daft question, but how do I know if the "Parking Charge Notice" is issued by the Police, Council or a private firm?

I suspect you have answered your question - a 'Parking Charge Notice' is just that and not a fine . . .

Google (http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&xhr=t&q=parking+charge+notice&cp=15&pf=p&sclient=psy&source=hp&aq=0&aqi=&aql=&oq=parking+charge+&pbx=1&fp=406b21159bfa7b1e)

Mrs C got a ticket from a notorious* firm called PPS.....

We ignored it, and when the first letter came we rang them and asked for an invoice addressed to the driver. Nothing happened until a letter came from a collection agency (100% owned by PPS) accompanied by a photo of the car with the ticket stuck on.

We wrote politely to the agency, again requesting an invoice addressed to the driver at the driver's address, which we undertook to pass on promptly.

End of the matter.

* Notorious in the SW for lurking in a parked vehicle and ticketing - or in at least one well-documented case clamping - a car while the driver gets a ticket from the machine.

YouTube - How to deal with Penalty Charge Notices issued by private companies

As a matter of interest, how do these cowboys, allegedly operating on the fringes of the law, obtain the name and address of the registered keeper of a vehicle? The information is not in the public domain and I would not expect the DVLA or Police to divulge it unless requested by an entity having a valid right to it.

It seems this would be a simple way to put these rogues out of business.

I can understand how they knew when we drove into the car park, and when we drove out, (CCTV)but how did they know we didn't purchase a ticket?

As a matter of interest, how do these cowboys, allegedly operating on the fringes of the law, obtain the name and address of the registered keeper of a vehicle? The information is not in the public domain and I would not expect the DVLA or Police to divulge it unless requested by an entity having a valid right to it.

As I understand it, the nature of their business means these cowboys have a valid reason to get your details from the DVLA, for a fee of course.

Here's (http://www.dft.gov.uk/dvla/data/parking.aspx) a bit from the DVLA about it.

The Telegraph motoring section have an excellent FAQ on this:Frequently Asked Questions | Honest John (http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/parking-fines)

And if they threaten debt recovery agent or credit rating being affected get a solicitor to write to them, threatening prosecution for harassment under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 and stating that if they want to sue you for breach of contract, they must first of all prove that contract exists and, secondly, must prove the amount they want is "reasonable".

BD

That's an interesting site, Hellsbrink, thank you.

Reasonable cause for data release
Motorists are obliged to comply with the terms and conditions of car parks in which they choose to leave their vehicles. Unauthorised or inconsiderate parking, such as misuse of disabled bays, or overstaying the permitted time can cause considerable nuisance to other motorists and can result in economic loss for the land owner. In such instances, private car parking enforcement companies can claim ‘reasonable cause’ and request that we release personal data so that they can trace the keeper of any vehicle contravening the parking restrictions.

.................

Introducing additional safeguards
Even with our existing measures to protect data against misuse, concerns about private car parking companies and interest in the disclosure of data to them have continued. We have responded to those concerns and have introduced additional new restrictions to safeguard the information we manage.

Since 23 November 2009 all private car parking companies requesting information to enforce parking restrictions by means of charges or clamping have to be a member of a DVLA Accredited Trade Association (ATA) and be fully compliant with that ATA's code of practice. Those that do not meet this criteria will not be eligible to request DVLA data.

To date, the only ATA for the parking industry is the British Parking Association. Information on their Code of Practice can be found at British Parking Association - Representing organisations in the parking and traffic management industry (http://www.britishparking.co.uk)

This would appear to mean that only members of that association can obtain the information, and this is where you see who the members are :

Approved Operator Scheme Members (http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Approved-Operator-Scheme-Members)

Completely ignore 'Parking Charge Notices', PCNs. They are a scam.

They rely on the fear of gullible people.

Ignore them and (after about 4 letters threatening you with CCJs, spoiling your credit rating etc.) they will go away.

IF they serve Court papers on you, which only happens in the rarest of occassions, don't ignore these.

You can only get CCJs etc if you're prosecuted, convicted and still dont pay.

Completely ignore 'Parking Charge Notices', PCNs. They are a scam.
They rely on the fear of gullible people.
Ignore them and (after about 4 letters threatening you with CCJs, spoiling your credit rating etc.) they will go away.
FINAL WARNING
OFFICIAL: TAKE NOTE that we have now resorted to RED INK, as the BLACK INK we used on our previous letters obviously didn't scare you enough. We hope the RED INK and LARGE BOLD TEXT IN CAPITALS will make you believe that this matter is now REALLY SERIOUS AND YOU'RE IN A LOT OF TROUBLE unless you pay us IMMEDIATELY.
Come on, just get your chequebook out. Please. Otherwise we may be forced to consider sending you another letter with more RED INK in a final attempt to scare you, after which we'll give up on you because there's nothing more we can do.

Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - MoneySavingExpert.com Forums (http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163)

BD

I would not expect the DVLA or Police to divulge it unless requested by an entity having a valid right to it.Any of these 'businesses' who join the British Parking Association, a sop organisation to legitimise these practices can obtain vehicle details from DVLA for £2.50. The whole thing is a scam & it stinks.

Any of these 'businesses' who join the British Parking Association, a sop organisation to legitimise these practices can obtain vehicle details from DVLA for £2.50. The whole thing is a scam & it stinks.

And when one is called "PMSL Parking Management" it says everything about them..........

Agreed, a total scam, but one sanctioned by the Gov since it means that the DVLA gets a heck of a lot of revenue due to the £2.50 per request.

I would like to see the Information Commissioner challenging the agreement between DVLA and the BPA to divulge registered vehicle keepers' personal data to any company that has joined the BPA, an organisation that does nothing to enforce any standards on its members. The Secretariat want to keep their fat salaries, don't they? You don't do that by pissing off the members.

Any two-bit bunch of crooks can incorporate themselves (£20 or so to Cos. House and standard memo and articles)with a name like "Premier Parking Solutions" and join the BPA by paying a fee.

The same two-bit bunch of crooks can then create another company called "Commercial Collections Solutions" (another £20, same memo & Arts) or something similar and send out illegal, outrageous and extortionate demands in the name of that company, accompanied by dire threats.

It all starts with the DVLA selling personal data. If it has the Information Commissioner's sanction to do that, one wonders who bribed whom to get it, because such a sanction flies in the face of the Data Protection Act which the ICO is supposed to uphold and enforce. If not, then all BPA Members' letters and threats are simply illegal and can be ignored.

Do I expect action from a UK Government quango? Of course not.

A very simple solution: Never go anywhere near a McDonlads.
You will not receive spurious parking fines, and your general health will benefit. If hungry, drop into a nice little pub or homely caff, and eat something nutritious.

A very simple solution: Never go anywhere near a McDonlads.
You will not receive spurious parking fines, and your general health will benefit. If hungry, drop into a nice little pub or homely caff, and eat something nutritious.
At 3 in the morning. Avinalaff?

My most reverend jim,

No, not in the least. I ventured once into a McDonlads during daylight hours, and vowed never to return. I pass a couple of these poison outlets on my way home at strange hours, and they seem to me to keep similar opening times to pubs and caffs.

If you are to be on the road at 3 am, why not make a nice sarni before departing, with maybe some crisps, and take a little break from the driving. Good for you all round.

I've been into MuckDonalds once in the last 10 years, and that was because I needed to use a toilet. In a way I felt guilty doing it because it's against my principles to set foot in, as wings folded calls it, one of those 'poison outlets', and because they maintain the toilets for customers, which I am definitely not!

Ignore the advice of writing to these companies to say they have no legal standing, prove this prove that yadeyadeyada. Don't bother. Just ignore them - when letters are sent, either keep them as a scrap paper collection or put them through your shredder/onto your next bonfire.

Most importantly - don't return contact at all!

Capetonian, I am reliably informed this is known as "having a McSh1t", or, if you are approached by the manager regarding your intentions and you tell him you will buy a meal after using their facilities
"having a McSh1t with Lies".

There is a new twist on this scabby enterprise coming your way. In lieu of the imminent clamping ban, the parking enforcers are getting their customers to take car reg's of motors parked on their land, then sending the number through to the parking co. who then pay £2.50 to DVLA & the next you know is a parking ticket arrives in the post for fifty quid. No more or less enforceable than the clampers,but just as ignorable & at least they haven't got your car immobilised.