Minimum Rest after flying duties?????

[crl]

I know we have airlaws to cover this in different parts of the world and further enhanced by pilot unions respectively. Nonetheless is there any scientific research or findings or recommended minimum rest for both long and short haul? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif
Any info is much appreciated.
Rgds,
CRL :)

[excrewingbod]

CRL,

The link below is for an excellent document on fatigue etc. Although it is about corporate and business aviation, the principles can be applied throughout the industry.

http://www.flightsafety.org/fsd/fsd_feb97.pdf

As for research, NASA had some info on one of their many websites. Try the following link: http://olias.arc.nasa.gov/zteam/FCP-frame.intro.html

You might want to try a search using Yahoo or Altavista on fatigue, they can come up with some useful sites.

[Kaptin M]

Rest AFTER a flight? How does that affect the preceding flight's safety? Somewhat akin to asking how many beers are permitted AFTER a flight.

Unfortunately, SOME company's O.M.'s do specify rest FOllOWING duty, which indicates a distinct lack of understanding on the part of the person who wrote it!

[alosaurus]

Kaptin M
R.T.F.Q.The thread is talking about minimum rest,which in this context relates to rest period between flights.You have obviously never flown a sector after minimum rest so I suggest you wind your neck in.

[Kaptin M]

alosaurus, I suggest YOU read the Title, AND the question and try to avoid jumping in with both feet - "presuming" something might end up with more serious consequences than making you look the fool you've just shown yourself to be! YOU have even countered your OWN argument, by writing:
You have obviously never flown a sector after minimum rest...

For YOUR (doubtful) benefit, alosaurus, allow me to restate what I said in my one reply to the question of rest AFTER a flight - some company's OM's (mine being one of those) stipulate minimum rest periods FOLLOWING flight duty - whereas the logical reference SHOULD refer to rest PRIOR to duty.

[crl]

excrewingbod,
Thanks a million for the links. Both are exactly the stuff that I'm looking for. Never thought of searching through search engines before... :)
alosaurus,
Appreciate your further elaboration of my question to some unfriendly comments. Looks like PILOTS do share a same frequency.... ;)

:mad: Kaptin M..... You are most welcome to say anything you want in any thread but for xxxx sake, R.T.F.Q..... Hate to dismiss anyone this way. :mad:

CRL

[Kaptin M]

crl AND alosaurus - it would appear that you are "babes in the wood" when it comes to interpreting that which is written, that which is intended, and that which is practised.

Minimum rest before flight duty is what is INTENDED by the regulations, however, as I have said TWICE before (in case you missed it both times), is that some companies/authorities make the mistake of writing the requirements for rest AFTER a flight - as you have done, unwittingly or otherwise, crl. Now unfortunately for us at the receiving end, this effectively means that we are not guaranteed a rest period FREE OF DUTY prior to flight. Who gives a rat's @rse about rest AFTER a flight (except US, of course) - however, from the SAFETY and SENSIBILITY point of view, the pilot should be well rested prior to flying duties.

Think about the implications of not specifying rest PRIOR to flight duty (some unscrupulous employers do!!) - it means that your employer can call you into his office to do, say 8 hours of company manual amendments, wash and clean the aircraft, catch a train to an airport 3 or 4 hours away, and THEN send you off on a max fdp. So...some 22 hours after reporting to the office you have now finished.

The rest prior to flight is meant to be rest free of ALL duty.

Sorry guys, but after almost 30 years in the industry I have seen employers who WILL try these actions, BECAUSE of the way they are able to be MIS-interpreted.

Think about what you MEAN to say, and what actually comes out, crl and allosaurus.

[crl]

Kaptin M,
There you go again with your century of experience... This has gotta be the last time that I entertained you. Get a life.
:mad:
CRL

[excrewingbod]

crl,

no probs.

[Kaptin M]

crl, this will (probably) be my last contribution to this (your) topic.

Who cares if you have 365 days off AFTER a flight - the ONLY time that rest AFTER a flight becomes RELEVANT, is IF there is another flight duty period to follow.

One year, one decade, or one century of experience(as you intimated) is only intended to be publicised for the benefit of others....I was fortunate enough to be exposed (metaphorically speaking) to the experience of other Captains who had a serious number of times MY exposure, as an F/O - and I'm, forever grateful for that NOW.
I didn't intend this topic to progress into a tet-a-tet - HOWEVER crl, there IS a fine distinction between rest BEFORE, and rest AFTER - it's up to you younger guys to sort the wheat from the chaff, for the benefit of ALL!!

Good Luck!!

[Code Blue]

Legislation and regulation refer to time off after flying I suspect because stipulating time off before flying may trespass on issues of 'personal freedom'.

It does seem perverse & illogical, however, to insist on regulating what you may or may not do after you have flown.

As pointed out indirectly above, the Accident Investigators will be interested exclusively in what you did before your flight not after, no matter what regulations you observe.

------------------
-.-- --.- -..-
[email protected] 'cos I screwed up the bold thingies

[This message has been edited by Code Blue (edited 14 June 2001).]

[excrewingbod]

The rules are designed to ensure you are adequately rested prior to operating a flying duty.

To determine the amount of rest you need to take, you must take account of the length of your previous duty period.

So after completing your duty period, you need a certain amount of rest BEFORE you can operate a flying duty, or another way of looking at it, how much rest do you need AFTER a duty before you can fly again?

[crl]

Just repeating what you had said excrewingbod. It's like chicken and egg cycle, a couple of guys who insist seeing the non relevance of AFTER duty rest which in turn not see it from my view on the required or recommended minimum rest before your next flying duty. I totally agree no body will be interested in what you do after your flying duty if it's your LAST FLIGHT.
Thanks again for the feedback.
CRL :)

[VH DSJ]

Here's Kaptin M again, in another p!55ing match. http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/bigun2.gif (He gets wound up so easily!)

It's the same thing, M .... rest after ..and rest before a flight implies the period between flights.

Geeez M, talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill!

BTW, wrt to my spelling in a previous thread... You don't spell Captain K A P T I N . http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/flip.gif

BTW, are you a pilot or an English teacher? You sound more like the latter! http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lol.gif

[alosaurus]

Kaptain M
You list as one of your interests "human behaviour" which is interesting for someone who "presses the wrong buttons" so frequently.I realise that the older population in your part of the world don't always take advice easily but I offer the following anyway:
-When someone heads up their politely worded post with a question mark and signs off with"any info is much appreciated","regards" and a smiley,don't-
1 Head up your response with Mr Angry
2 Use a dismissive,high handed tone
3 Split hairs
4 Irritate with inappropriate use of italics,bold capitals.
5 Throw experience down peoples throat(good people never need to do that)
6 Leave the rationale behind your response for later postings(unless you are an argumentative windup merchant)
I'm sure you wouldn't treat your F/Os this way,so don't do it here

Re. the subject matter Crl and EXCREWINBOD (who handle suggests he should know) covered what needs to be said.
-That just leaves your somewhat hysterical response to my posting.
RTFA-I said "in this context" and,as you responded in your last post,rest after flight is relevant if there is another FDP to follow.It was obvious to just about everyone what was being asked.

BTW I'm ALosaurus,the AL is short for ALAN.An Allosaurus was a big,ugly and vicious dinosaur.

[crl]

alosauros+VH DSJ,
Thanks for making it CRYSTAL CLEAR regarding the intent of this post.
Definitely don't wanna turn this brilliant website of Danny into a battlefield, and anyone with more useful info, please be kind enough to share with us.....
Best regards,
CRL :)

[Doctor Cruces]

Kaptin M,

Can you not see that rest after a flight will AUTOMATICALLY become rest BEFORE the next one.

Surely you must see that min rest OR the length of the previous duty whichever is the greater is designed specifically to ensure that a crew member is sufficiently rested BEFORE going on duty again?

If you have had a six hour duty day you will get min rest BEFORE your next flight. If you have had a fifteen hour duty then you will get at least 15 hours afterwards, or BEFORE your next flight. At the start of your duty cycle after days off, it is assumed you are sufficiently rested to undertake your first duty, that is your own responsibility. All the crewer or ops guy is concerned about is how long you have just been on duty and how much rest you will need before your next duty, or in five year old's language, AFTER your last duty.

In short, I think you are trying to say exactly the same thing but from the opposite end.

Doc C.

Editid 4 bad spelin

[This message has been edited by Doctor Cruces (edited 18 June 2001).]