Lufthansa and Emirates ...... [Archive]

Desertbannanas

16th Jan 2011, 12:58

Understand where your coming from pool. But think of it this way: If you want to start a taxi company, and the first thing you do is buy a fleet of cars before you have built any roads to drive on, or an even more direct comparison: the place where your proposed customer base is in a location owned by your competitor, that happens to have a taxi company already, who is at fault if you don't get any business?

As the vehicle seller, who am I to say what you will do with the taxi's? Not my business. You may have wanted to drive on my neighbors streets, but then you may well have though about negotiating that before buying all the cars. Or maybe try to wrap it into the deal for the cars.

Food for thought. Hypocrisy has nothing to do with it.

Schibulsky

16th Jan 2011, 13:09

Although Dubai's economy was built on the back of the oil industry,[72] revenues from oil and natural gas currently account for less than 6% of the emirate's revenues.[7] It is estimated that Dubai produces 50,000 to 70,000 barrels (11,000 m3) of oil a day[73] and substantial quantities of gas from offshore fields. The emirate's share in UAE's gas revenues is about 2%. Dubai's oil reserves have diminished significantly and are expected to be exhausted in 20 years
Better correct this part from Wikipedia so the rest of the world is par with your knowledge...
But you might also want to correct the guys at Reuters who just issued this:
Dubai announced a new oilfield discovery on Thursday, raising hopes of a boost to both oil output and revenues for the cash-strapped emirate...Dubai said on Thursday the field was east of the producing Rashid oilfield, but did not say how far. Rashid is one of Dubai's four main oilfields, so it may be able to use Rashid's infrastructure for the new production.
:E

pool

16th Jan 2011, 13:27

Trader and Bananas:

Nobody implies that buying an Airbus entitles you to fly to Europe. Just as little as buying oil entitles you to fly into any OPEC country. Trade means you buy what you do not have and sell what you have. Since the early trading days there has always been some equilibrium between partners, not absolute numbers, but some balance, or one of the trade partners reacted. Today one of the most mentioned values is trade deficit or surplus, which is a huge reactive factor.

It takes little to detect how big the trade surplus is from the EU or Germany, or from Canada for instance. It also takes takes little economical basics to understand how much the Emirates orders of 380 and 350 aircraft means to Airbus and Europe.

The UAE can offer oil and airlift, the West the technology and equipment. To a certain extent one partner can certainly choose what to buy and to sell. But no western country would sell the ME oil rigging equipment without wanting a piece of the pumped oil. Just remember the rhetoric of 1973 when they initiated the oil embargo: "They buy our technology to pump oil but refuse to give us some. How utterly hypocritical!" Very true, as it was not balanced trade but political armwrestling. As today in a reciprocal way.

I do not like the moronic behavior of the ME spoilt elite. But I'm all for fair trade, something the West normally so fervently defends ..... at least as long as it serves them we realize now.

Schibulsky

16th Jan 2011, 13:39

EK= de facto state owned and state sponsored airline.
No enforced employee or consumer protection laws or anti trust regulations...no unions...based on working conditions for most of the employees that amounts to slavery...etc. etc. :D
Fair trade my a$$ !!! :ooh:

Desertbannanas

16th Jan 2011, 13:59

Agree pool. So the hard part is to find that balance. And I would think that always, two parties disagree on where the fair balance lies.

Tell me this. Do you believe that the UAE flies a lot, or a little to Europe? Also, do you believe their current flights are enough to serve the UAE community or are a great portion of the flights serving though traffic? Because if so, that is a contentious issue with many players at the table trying to share. And many just don't have the tools that the UAE has to compete fairly(ie:shubilsky), so they are using "other" tools, like a negative "Emirates" pr spin.

Point is, the AC orders are pure indulgent hubris expecting more than entitled through balanced fair growth and trade as you so suggest.

flyzede

16th Jan 2011, 14:04

Kijangnim,

Do you mean olive oil?

ibelieveicanfly

16th Jan 2011, 14:31

EK does NOT buy fuel at a cheaper price than other airlines!!absolutely wrong

ibelieveicanfly

16th Jan 2011, 14:40

Why Air France,Lufthansa KLM AIr Canada fight against EK?because instead of beeing inovative and bring a good product to their passengers and trying to MAKE money,they try to SAVE money.
AF is a champion to annoy passengers(in any kind of idea) and loose them!but who cares?if they go bankrupt(like in 1998 or so,17billion Euros debts)the government will pay.

pool

16th Jan 2011, 14:45

Desertbananas

You hit on a basic difference of interpretation whereon the politicians and press masterfully play the fiddle:
The EU and Canada look at airlift as a solitary entity of trade. Thus they pretend that the UAE has enough capacity to serve its country.
The UAE looks at airlift as a trade contained in the whole trade complement and therefore do not count flight/passenger numbers, but the total trade volume.
So it all comes down to which point of view you share.

As for the unfair (slavery) advantage of the ME. This is so true, but applies to many trades in many developing countries. The West still buys Chinese goods, don't they? What about their laws, labor and human rights conditions? If you go down that road, go down the whole way.

On the other hand, I agree to a certain extent with the unfair advantage argument. This would be the card I would play, not the protectionist one:
- Why not try to level the fields with i.e.more audits, spot checks etc.? A thorough audit of EK, EY and especially the GCAA would spread panic around here and reveal a lot of such unfair practices (but again, you would have to accept more transparency at home as well and, believe me, there is a lot of similar mud hidden there, so it will not happen).
- Some spot checks of logbooks of passing crew would reveal some fatigue related issues, if you apply the NASA or other competent research values (but again, it would reveal similar practices if you'd check some outfits in the west).
- Some more strict investigations into errors of crews could reveal blatant skill and training deficits (and again some European companies would look just as bad).

You see, my remedy would not work, as globalization has slowly but surely leveled the field to the lower common denominator. Been there, seen that.
But this takes a lot of steam out of Schibulinskilitis argument: The West is no longer very far from slavery as well!

One should not throw stones in a porcelain shop.

Cityliner

16th Jan 2011, 20:02

EK does NOT buy fuel at a cheaper price than other airlines!!absolutely wrong

The joke of the year.
So tell me why did 2 of your ACs needed deicing last week one at FRA one at HAM? Temp between 5 and 8C and RA?
Maybe some tons of extra Fuel from DXB? For the rain or for the price?

Iver

16th Jan 2011, 20:29

The Germans are running scared just like the Canadians. Unlike EK, LH's product is sub-standard (nothing special or unique). If I were EK I would start flying future A380s on all allotted German routes and frequencies to maximise its revenue in that market since access will be limited going forward. Make it a bit cheaper (not much cheaper) and easier for all Germans to get to Middle East, India and Asian destinations (especially highlighting those LH does not serve).

Wizofoz

16th Jan 2011, 22:18

The joke of the year.

I'm a serving Emirates pilot and, if the weathers ok, we carry minimum fuel just about everywhere, ESPECIALLY Europe and the US.

There are a number of ports from which we tanker fuel IN to Dubai from, as it's cheaper!!

Maybe some tons of extra Fuel from DXB? For the rain or for the price?

The rain- At times our dispatch is a little conservative when it comes to winter weather. HOWEVER they are just as likely to order tons extra OUT of Europe IN to Dubai at the slightest hint of Fog.

In short- you have no idea what you are talking about....

bvcu

16th Jan 2011, 23:46

REF joke of the year ,
long haul flight, then turnround in less than 2 hours regularly means ice patches on top of wing in damp conditions and temps as quoted. Am told by crew of problem with 345 downunder in the summer where due to cold soak then short transit had the same problem but no de-ice avail !

Schibulsky

17th Jan 2011, 01:29

The Germans are running scared just like the Canadians.
They have a good enough position within the Star Alliance and the main battles are fought at home against the likes of Air Berlin and Lyin'air.
Without the help of the government in a open and "fair" market.
Unlike EK, LH's product is sub-standard (nothing special or unique).
Having worked for LH for almost 20 years and some years for EK, I think I can give a better assessment of the "qualities":
LH has an outstanding training, maintenance and operations standard, while EK is a dog and pony show compared to that!
Let's start with EK's new shiny aircrafts with meter long lists of deferred items, pilots entering a cockpit while the APU is running and no wobbly "mechanic" is there to explain why some CBs are pulled or popped etc...
The MCC is always happy to send aircrafts to Germany to have problem items fixed that the own maintenance is not able to solve.
The flight operation is a complete joke run mainly by leftover Poms and some locals like the clueless malicious clown AAR...and there are high fives at the OCC when the on time rate reaches 50%.:D
Ground operations managed to lose my bags at least twice a year while that never happened with LH ever. Lots of fun with the EK "lost" baggage department. :{
Why do you think there are almost no ex LH pilots working for EK?
(I know only of one who came for family reasons)
Even pilots coming from LH subsidiaries are truly shocked after they went through what EK calls training!:eek:
All that would cost money that EK invests rather in the only inventive PR and marketing departments.
The inflight entertainment is indeed world class (when it works properly) but I personally don't need that anyway. The service from the mostly 3rd world cabin crew is IMHO overrated and on the way down and some of the cabins of "older" B777 and A330 look more like Biman or AirIndia to me...:}
As a full paying pax don't get me started with the "help" you get from their hotlines etc. so I am preferring SIA now with a truly great service and comparable prices.
They are part of an alliance, the real way of fair global business...working together worldwide and leave the local markets to the local partners....like in a real partnership.
EK would never be part of that, they are the greedy predators without any interest in a partnership...
And what a joke is that fuel price issue? Achmed pays from his airline to his fuel supplier...left pocket to right pocket:ok:!
Anyway...hope my fellow Krauts will kick their greedy a$$es...:p

EGGW

17th Jan 2011, 05:50

Shall I just change the thread title to Air Canada and Emirates, same old arguments.. Please stay on subject. Watching you!

EGGW

sheikmyarse

17th Jan 2011, 06:42

Schil.... :D
How we can compare Germany, one of the most advanced countries in the world both socially and economically with the UAE, a fascist/middle age country runned on slavery whose only merit is to have made a hole in the sand.. well not even that... the BP fuickers did.
EK is just a scam runned on intimidation and exploitation with the business model of Mc Donalds.
Oil will be no longer a factor in shorter then predicted time and is better for them to start changing. Human and worker rights and then we talk about fair trade!
I would put levies on any goods coming form country whose salaries, social benefit and rights are susbstantially inferior from western standard.Europe is starting to realize the backlashes of freetrade and globalization and will have to do something about it or there will be increasing social unrest.

Wizofoz

17th Jan 2011, 06:57

I would put levies on any goods coming form country whose salaries, social benefit and rights are susbstantially inferior from western standard.

In other words you would seek to see a substantial majority of the Human Race live in poverty and starvation?

Do you think the world can support a Western lifestyle for eveyone on Earth?

Cityliner

17th Jan 2011, 07:38

At the end of the day you say EK pays the regular price for fuel and some including me just don' t believe it.
So we should stick with what we are paid for, flying Aircrafts and not politics!

Wizofoz

17th Jan 2011, 08:01

City,

But you didn't, did you? You made a statement of fact that is incorrect.

Who exactley is it that you think provides EK with cheap fuel and why?

The UAE does not produce fuel, it sells crude oil at the market price. The vast majority of this comes from Abu Dhabi, a very small amount from Dubai. Oil companies then refine it overseas and ship some of it back- why would they do this for any less than the going rate?

If EK gets cheap fuel in Dubai, why do we often tanker fuel in the other direction?

The SSK

17th Jan 2011, 08:34

Bilateral Air Services Agreement (ASA) – country A sits down with country B and sets limits on what may be flown between the two. Assuming it’s not an Open Skies anything goes deal, the starting point is the size of the local market between country A and country B.

Germany is almost unique in Europe (along with Austria) in collecting true origin/destination data in its national air passenger statistics collection. So they know exactly how many EK passengers are destined for Dubai and how many are travelling onwards. Equally, they know how many passengers are travelling Germany-UAE via other transfer points.

So you can be sure that the rights available under the current bilateral pretty much reflect the true demand for Germany/UAE travel. If Emirates want the additional rights to serve markets beyond DXB, *shrug*. That’s not what’s on the table.

Cityliner

17th Jan 2011, 08:48

Sorry Wizofoz you are right of course, you continue being a TRI/DEC in a shinny new jet and I 'll continue playing my FS98 in my windowless basement!
What is a Püsh Bütton??? :ugh:

They might do it for less than the market rate because it is all more or less Government/Family owned. My knowledge of accounting regulations is very very limited but if i see what differences we have in europe e.g. France vs. Ireland
I won' t imagine who many trickery is possible in a family runned country like the UAE or especially DXB. Who really knows who pays whos bills in DXB!

Even if the UAE need to import some refined oil I hardly doubt they import a large percantage.

sheikmyarse

17th Jan 2011, 09:08

Wiz... I definetely think so.
Just a matter of redistributing wealth more equally. Let's start by impeding the enrichment of managers with bonuses based just on financial performance and to get rid of Middle Age situation like UAE where a bunch of locals spend its time buying expensive cars and running around the world on private 744 while exploited labourers live on 200 dollars a month in concentration camps.

sheikmyarse

17th Jan 2011, 09:13

The refinery in Jebel Ali, Dubai, has increased the total capacity of the UAE by about 60%. This refinery is the UAE's third refinery after Ruwais and Um al-Nar in the emirate of Abu Dhabi, which have a combined capacity of 200,000 barrels per day. The emirates of Sharjah and Fujairah also have refineries, each with a potential capacity of 80,000 barrels per day, but they have never been operational due to financial and technical problems. The refinery is operated by the Emirates National Oil Co. (ENOC) which is owned by the Dubai government.

The investment in the plant was $500 million. The plant took two and a half years to complete and covers 500,000 square metres. It involved the pouring of around 22,600 cubic metres of cement for foundations, structures and pre-cast pipe rack, as well as the installation of 15,000 tons of equipment and the laying of 223 kilometres of electric cables and 155 kilometres of instrument cables. The construction was completed on time and within budget.

sheikmyarse

17th Jan 2011, 09:15

may I assume you take fuel in the other direction because in flight refueling is not a viable solution?

White Knight

17th Jan 2011, 09:42

Forget LH and EK waving their knobs at each other.... Has anyone asked the German public? Seems to me that the answer is obvious - all flights in and out of Deutschland are usually full, ZO, the Germans seem happy enough heh:}

Wizofoz

17th Jan 2011, 10:07

Sheik,

Thank-you for the info on UAE refining- nrews to me. It still stands that most of the oil refined and used in Dubai comes from Abu Dhabi, and they certainly wouldn't give it to EK any cheaper than market rate.

City,

Sorry Wizofoz you are right of course, you continue being a TRI/DEC in a shinny new jet and I 'll continue playing my FS98 in my windowless basement!

Please point out where my post was insulting or de4meaning to you, and explain why you felt the need to respond like this.

I pointed out a factual error you made, why is this a trigger for personal attacks?

They might do it for less than the market rate because it is all more or less Government/Family owned.

Who, exactley, is "They"??

My knowledge of accounting regulations is very very limited but if i see what differences we have in europe e.g. France vs. Ireland

Do you know what "Tax" is?

Who really knows who pays whos bills in DXB!

Apparently you do, or else what reason would you have for saying that EK pays market rates is a joke?

Even if the UAE need to import some refined oil I hardly doubt they import a large percantage

The UAE is a federation. EK is owned by the Dubai Government, which is one member state, not the seat of the Federal Government, and has precious little oil.

Wizofoz

17th Jan 2011, 10:10

Wizofoz

17th Jan 2011, 10:12

may I assume you take fuel in the other direction because in flight refueling is not a viable solution?

We TANKER fuel through Dubai from several ports.

Schibulsky

17th Jan 2011, 10:18

If we ask ze schtooopit averatsch Kraut, they vill go for the cheapest and the nice facade of an airline because zey have no clue vot's going on behind it.
Like the Lemmings worldwide they buy everything that's cheap...including poisonous chinese toys :}
Btw. ze LH flights are also fully booked! :eek:
My wise 78 year old mother rather spends a hundred Euro more and fly SQ or LH to visit me...flew with EK before! :ok:

sheikmyarse

17th Jan 2011, 10:29

Dear Wiz..the world will change willing or not.
This rate of consumption of the planet reserves is unstainable. Global warming is a fact. Million of square meter of ice on polar caps has already melted and 2010 has had the second highest temperature average since 1880.
I believe you are from Australia... look what happen in Queensland.
The only way is to cut eccess and the only solution is social ( less disequality, more education) technological ( alternative energies and more specifically alternative fuel for aviation) and economical ( excess of freedom in markets will bring mankind to self extinction). Emergering country should start thinking of controlling demographic growth and to increases wages and and rights to boost internal consumption instead of flooding the markest with cheap products.
UAE is an absurd mix of first and third world with the highest procapita green house emission on the planet. Sorry but the solution is less billionairs around.
Rockfeller that for sure is not a socialist is spending a huge amount of his wealth along with many other capitalist to curb demographic growth in emerging countries. Does this rings a bell?

Cityliner

17th Jan 2011, 10:45

I am not talking about taxes which I know quite well because I have to pay them each month.
I meant what you can hide or move to another costposition on your balance sheet.
GCAA is a gov agency airport operator, airport handling and the airlines ist government owned and you seriously say there is no advantage out of this position for EK?
I simply don' t think so!

I am out of here need to do traffic pattern in a c172 around Meigs field!

nice day to all

Wizofoz

17th Jan 2011, 10:52

Sheik,

By far the biggest component of green-house emissions comes from the rising average wealth of places like China and India.

Billionaires tend to have 747s parked in front of their mansions, with their 26 Ferraris safely locked away in the garage- the actual output of environmentally harmful substances as a result of this tiny portion of the worlds population is nothing compared to hundreds of new coal-fired electrical plants in China, or millions of Tatas in Dehli and Mumbai.

But what to do? Deny billions the chance of a better life? As you say, the world will change without any help from us! Much more sensible to come up with better alternatives (WHEN will we get real about Nuclear!!)

Global trade is pulling billions out of poverty. Philanthropists like Rockefeller and Gates aren't just giving out bowls of rice- their strategy is to improve the health and education of the poor so that they neither want nor need as many children.

Blocks to trade are blocks to the development of such people- it literally means condemning many children to poverty and early death.

Yes it's annoying that so many are so rich by dint of where they are born, but how far is your and my standard of living above the Global average for exactly the same reason?

BTW, lucid and interesting discussion- keep it up!!

Schibulsky

17th Jan 2011, 11:24

Must be a reason they are "ex this" and "ex that" :}
I don't know these guys, but I know the standards of both airlines and they are worlds apart!
LH must be doing a very good job, especially if they have such costly rewards and benefits for their employees. :ooh:

springbok449

17th Jan 2011, 13:41

Interesting article:

Lufthansa wants to deny Emirates slots in Berlin -paper, UAE Industries - Maktoob News (http://en.news.maktoob.com/20090000548760/Lufthansa_wants_to_deny_Emirates_slots_in_Berlin_-paper/Article.htm)

I like the way this guy is complaining that LH can only fly to one destination in Dubai..maybe he doesnt realise that Dubai isnt a country.

After all LH also fly to Abu Dhabi so thats already 2 destinations in a small country so surely that is the same as flying to 4 destinations in a bigger country like Germany.

If LH are really that fussed about the number of destinations they serve in the UAE am sure they could fly into SHJ, RAK, AAN etc... that should balance things out a bit.

As an aside am sure that EK are going to find increasing complaints from other countries as they serve more and more destinations.

The SSK

17th Jan 2011, 14:46

I also predict there will be increasing complaints about the growth plans of the Gulf carriers.

People may wonder what is the rationale for just three carriers (two of which have never made a penny profit) coming from two countries with a combined population of just 6.5m, to place orders for a hundred billion dollars’ worth of longhaul aircraft.

Why one carrier (Qatar), with a home market of 1.5m, should presume to grow its longhaul fleet in the next five years by the equivalent of one British Airways, or one Lufthansa, or one Air France.

Why one carrier (Emirates) should presume to grow its longhaul fleet (including options) in the next five years by the equivalent - almost - of the entire US airline industry's widebody capacity.

These megalomaniacal expansion plans may be a source of pride in the Gulf region, in the rest of the world they are viewed with the deepest suspicion.

White Knight

17th Jan 2011, 15:15

Must be a reason they are "ex this" and "ex that"
I don't know these guys, but I know the standards of both airlines and they are worlds apart!
LH must be doing a very good job, especially if they have such costly rewards and benefits for their employees.

Mmmm - so why was it you left LH for EK:confused::confused: And are now hanging around this forum like a child who can't let go of a toy:D:D

What IS the reason you are "ex that"??

pool

17th Jan 2011, 16:55

These megalomaniacal expansion plans may be a source of pride in the Gulf region, in the rest of the world they are viewed with the deepest suspicionMaybe just as the world was suspicious as a yankee brown fluid conquered the world, accompanied by a clown selling junkfood? I guess conquering the world market is only all right coming from the right countries, isn't it?

On a less sarcastic note: Let's wait for a nicely timed announcement, at any big airshow, of the three ME carriers that they cancel some x-hundred AB and B products. All this due to the inability to effectively use the birds.
Let us listen to the complaints of the then to be furloughed workers.

If you sell products for profit, you must consider them being used. Even in your neighborhood. Or people will stop buying them.

Wizofoz

17th Jan 2011, 17:09

And when the product is moving people and stuff from, let's call it "A", to lets call it "B", surely the position of the hub (lets call it "D") may be simply a natural advantage, untouched by politics or greed.

South African steak is great becaus South Africa is a great place to raise a cow. The ME is a great place to found an airline, because it's a great strategic place for an Airline to BE.

Desertbannanas

17th Jan 2011, 19:47

Hi pool.

Sorry, but I don't think Coke and McDonalds are good comparisons. Both are publicly owned companies. Second, Coke is bottled regionally profiting the same boss you work for, as well as MCD being a franchise, each also owned locally. Further, both companies were not trying to break down the door to sweep their respective industries regionally. They grew naturally, and more accurately, at the behest and request of the men who own this land. because, if you build it they will come.

It would also be interesting to point out that these companies were intelligent enough not to build franchises or bottlers locally until they had license to do so.

Regarding buying product: of course boeing/ airbus would expect you to fly their new AC, but it's not really their business. They build and sell. airbus cannot grant landing rights in Germany any more than I could. If I sell you my lawn mower, it doesn't give you the right to cut my grass.

Schibulsky

18th Jan 2011, 00:21

What IS the reason you are "ex that"??
Because you asked sooo nicely:
I left LH after 20 years because I was kind of bored with the routine and wanted to see something else, just that simple.
Of course I came with a plan B unlike all the others who got stuck here :}
But I didn't take the advise of my boss to do what everybody else does at EK: "keep your a$$ covered and be happy with the paycheck at the end of the month". I started to very much dislike life at EK and Dubai and because I am a very outspoken person AAR was soon pressing my VP to fire me, so I thought it was time to leave that $h!t hole and execute plan B.
Now I've executed plan C and retired completely from aviation, all that just because I simply can.
But I have a lot of time in semi-retirement and I chose to hang around on this fascinating forum just because I simply like to, iPhone works fine on the beach!...unlike others who seem to use this forum a LOT (between their busy flying schedule, family and whatever private life they have left) to constantly show they only got a plan A...:p

pool

18th Jan 2011, 01:46

Some valid arguments. Everyone wants to save and improve the world. But the other one has to start first ....

It also means good paid, well regulated jobs in the European countries of the competitors are destroyed, companies who are important to the well being of real countries with real rights, real development and a real working local population.We saw how dearly this was to our companies and politicians during the crisis after 9/11. We don't need EK to destroy jobs, Swissair, Sabena, LTU et al were brilliant examples of SELF destruction. By the way, at that time the public, press and politicians told the furloughed pilots to look after themselves, that there were opportunities out there and they should not burden the social security system. They've done just that, with kids and wife and dog, and now face being told not to fly too much to the former home soil, not to endanger the former colleagues. - Hypocritical.

Regarding buying product: of course boeing/ airbus would expect you to fly their new AC, but it's not really their business. They build and sell. airbus cannot grant landing rights in Germany any more than I could. If I sell you my lawn mower, it doesn't give you the right to cut my grass. B and AB might only produce and sell. Maybe in your world they do not lobby and influence politics as heavily as possible to do so, but in reality its interwoven to a huge degree. I agree it's the government who acts in their interest by helping sales around the world, but then they help their airline to inhibit these sales competing with them. - Hypocritical.
By the way, both companies are heavily subsidized and therefore the public, via representatives, is so much involved, that the pure "selling" argument is somewhat oblivious. Those subsidies are also never brought up when the West blames the "subsidized ME airlines". I guess it's same, same but different, not - Hypocritical.

Take for instance the sugar trade. We sell Africa (and South America) the processing equipment for sugar cane. At the same time we export heavily subsidized sugar to these countries and destroy their industry (same goes for poultry). There are some embargoes for foreign sugar into some western countries, to protect the own industry, although much less cost effective, saying we must uphold self sufficiency. All bullocks and highly unfair, admitted but no one cares. - Hypocritical as well.

We can turn round and round with arguments and will find enough for both points of view, agreed.

EK/EY will have 28 weekly flights into ZRH/DXB, Swiss 7 into DXB. Swiss however does remakably well, even better than its parent LH. Why? They have restructured and have a very competitive product. They do not count bean for bean and might see their own advantage of better overall connectivity, for the airline and for the economy.

pool

Schibulsky

18th Jan 2011, 02:19

And Swiss does remarkably well! Why?
Maybe because they are now owned by LH??:E
btw. an main reason they went bankrupt was because they didn't want to join any Alliance...:ugh:

pool

18th Jan 2011, 02:29

btw. an main reason they went bankrupt was because they didn't want to join any Alliance...

Made no difference to the furloughed pilots though. (please read correctly: I didn't discuss reason, but consequences)

And if that's so, then why the fear of Emirates? Why the protectionist measures? They do not want to join an alliance, therefore, following your argument, they will soon go bankrupt.

Schibulsky

18th Jan 2011, 02:51

o.k. consequences: Swiss is now a well functioning part of the LH Group and the Star Alliance. A lot of pilots/employees got employed by LH based on the negotiations for the take over.:ok:
EK, EY and QR dont need an Alliance as they are in an Alliance with their governments, something not allowed due to the competition laws elsewhere!
They wouldn't get away with their "business model" in any civilized country!
IMHO EK and EY are going to be in an Alliance sooner or later if they are de facto not already are!
I cannot prove any of that but looking at the way business is done in the UAE it should be easy cover that with some of the usual "creative bookkeeping":E
After all this is a rumour network, isn't it? ;)

Wizofoz

18th Jan 2011, 03:34

Free trade should produce benefits to everyone, in the sense of competition and new ideas / products, more efficient production processes, therefore cheaper prices and DEVELOPMENT and wealth increase for the local population.

Does anything of these things happen when EK expands at the cost of an established European carrier?

NO!

Pretty definitve statement, with very little substance.

EK provides development to many people from many countries. For countries like Indonesia and the Phillipoines, expat labour who repatriate funds are one of their biggest foreign currency industries. EK is an enourmous employer of such people both directley, and through it's contribution to the overall Dubai ecconomy.

EK is not doing any of this at the expense of European carriers, as it can do things the Europeans simply can't do. Is Lufthansa going to provide a direct service Cochin to Munich? Karrachi to Hamburg? Of course not, there isn't anything like to traffic. But by having a stratigically placed hub, EK provides a one-stop service between these points.

Yes, ME carriers (as well of the carriers in other developing regions) have an advantage in labour costs. But when Lufthansa or BA turn-around in these places, guess which baggage loaders, refuelers and cleaners they contract to and guess how much they pay them? Do they give them a premium out of conscience, or pay the going rate?

Seems "exploitation" is ok if you're exploiting someone in a foreign country, just not in your own, and Coke and McDonalds (not to mention Nike and Walmart) are good examples!!

Schibulsky

18th Jan 2011, 03:38

I think we all agree somehow, depending on where we live, that globalization is not leading to fair trade...the playing fields are just too uneven.

When ever the rich nations have their commissions travel to developing countries, they have the corporate vultures with them and every "help" to these nations is linked to giving the corporations access to their markets.
"We give you money but we tell you how to spend it!"
The gouvernments owned by the corporations are working well together with corrupt regimes in these countries to the disadvantage of all working people.
A god read is "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" by John Perkins.
Indeed a very sad reality!
Anyway, what was this thread about?...just managed to find some local food between all the Nestle products in the corner shop...:(

White Knight

18th Jan 2011, 04:16

EK, EY and QR dont need an Alliance as they are in an Alliance with their governments, something not allowed due to the competition laws elsewhere!
They wouldn't get away with their "business model" in any civilized country!

Hahahah - you are good for a laugh! And you're telling me that the big US majors aren't in alliance with the US government:= After all, what is Chapter 11 protection other than government backing for a failed company:ugh::ugh:

Competition laws my ar$e in civilised countries:{

Stick to the beach and your happy retirement mein freund:ok:

Schibulsky

18th Jan 2011, 14:56

While I happily stick to the beach, I ignore your obvious inability to keep your frustration with your miserable life from lacing your posts with personal insults...btw "mein freund" is reserved for friends...:mad:!
Ignore like in "ignore list" so you can shove any further comments...:p

White Knight

18th Jan 2011, 15:12

Actually Schibulsky I was being friendly... If however you wish to play the part of a humourless Kraut then so be it:ugh::ugh:

As for miserable and frustrating life - interesting how you can interpret my life for me and my family!! Life's fine thanks - nor do I need to think about retirement although I could do so tomorrow. The thing is, I actually enjoy flying... Not something that I imagine you would understand having been a desk jockey:hmm::hmm:

MrMachfivepointfive

18th Jan 2011, 15:21

Not something that I imagine you would understand having been a desk jockey.

Uh - oh - WK: That was a bit low. And now brace for incoming. In his earlier life Schiby actually drove fastmovers.

h3dxb

18th Jan 2011, 15:21

looks like a bitchy fight now :D

I bet on the kraut :ok:

MrMachfivepointfive

18th Jan 2011, 15:31

looks like a bitchy fight now :D

I bet on the kraut

The next round might be delayed by a couple of hours. It's bedtime in Bali now.

White Knight

18th Jan 2011, 15:35

I bet on the kraut

Have you ever met me:}:}:)

Oh well - if he drove fastmovers then good for him. See what happens when we makes assumptions based on faceless contact over internet boards:E

He just needs to catch up with a sense of humour:rolleyes:

MrMachfivepointfive

18th Jan 2011, 15:40

He just needs to catch up with a sense of humour:rolleyes:When he was still with EK he sometimes smiled when we tossed some raw meat through that codelocked door on the 7th floor.

sheikmyarse

18th Jan 2011, 16:21

Shall we instead to contribute to help repay the omoungous debt (++ 139 billion USD according to latest news) Dubai has made to build some of the most idiotic project ever conceived without even getting in return the right to talk freely?

ibelieveicanfly

18th Jan 2011, 16:44

I bet on White Knight;):ok:

sheikmyarse

18th Jan 2011, 21:29

My friend WV2 I might be a joke but if you take that debt and divide it by the local population of Dubai per capita is the highest in the world. Again, how can you compare real economies with Dubai. Dubai is a small dictatorship producing nothing whose only assett is constituted by the possibility of legally exploiting the disinherited. A modern form of slavery. It doesn't produce anything and touristically demonstrated itself as failure. The Burj Khalifa is for 4/5th unsold. Real estate has lost 7/10th of it's value. That vision was maybe just the result of bad digestion? Emirates is the cow now and it is runned on the same ( lack of) principles. They are just milking you take it or leave it and no complaint.Still some self serving imbecills that lost contact with reality think they are privileged superman just because they can afford a Land Cruiser and a maid and tend to forget that are just the shape,the darker blue color of the suit and the salary the differences with the ineducated and unaware construction worker sweating in the sand.
Where is your dignity mate? You are so evidently wrong .You can invent all sort of bull**** concerning taxation, debt, the flaws of democracy, but still you can't open your window and scream that the government is ****.. can't you? The possibility of doing so is called freedom and has no price!.

Schibulsky

19th Jan 2011, 00:35

Good morning gents, sorry but nothing really worth a fight!
The quotes (so why did I put WK on the ignore list again?) show me WKs state of mind pretty well. He believes that non pilots are a lower life form and Krauts have no humour etc....and then he probably droned on how happy he is with his life as a dependent driver at EK and that his plan A is still working fine.
And probably some more low blows he calls humour...:D

Anyway, what was that again about arguing on the internet and running in the special olympics...? :p

halas

19th Jan 2011, 04:11

It seems that Schibulski is, to some extent, a hypocrite.

Living in Bali, taking advantage of cheap living costs, cheap golfing and and cheap entertainment all supplied by cheap labor.

No resemblance at all for the ME carriers at all :hmm:

On another note....

Many years ago the prime minister of Australia, who was in Brussels, was asked by the Euro press when was Australia going to drop the tariffs on European wine and agricultural equipment that was being exported to there.
J Howard nearly wet himself laughing when he responded by saying "as soon as Europe stop subsidising agricultural produce and dumping it on the rest of the world"

Not defending the gulf carriers, but they are not the only perpetrators in the globalised world we live in.

halas

Schibulsky

19th Jan 2011, 05:25

Dear Halas, my maid earns more than I had to pay for my indian cleaner in DXB, she gets a full time salary for her part time job and brings her kids to splash in my pool. O.K. the villa is about what you pay for a 2BR in DXB nowadays. And if you decide to visit my golf club, they'll charge you 160 US$ for a round, my membership is more than double of the one at RAK, check here: Bali Golf - Indonesia Golf Event - Indonesia Open | New Kuta Golf (http://www.newkutagolf.com) . For entertainment you pay i.e. 30 US$ for a cheap bottle of Oz wine, thanks to 300% import duty :eek: And I am too old for the other "entertainment" ;) btw they are asking probably more than the hookers at Rattlesnake.:p
What was your point again?? :ooh:

Anyway, you are right about the western hypocrisy as I already also pointed out. But that doesn't justify the methods of the UAE...at all :ugh:

White Knight

19th Jan 2011, 10:49

Hey Halas - you may have noticed that schibulsky doesn't like anyone arguing or disagreeing with him:} I disagree with him a couple of times and he puts me on his ignore list:E:E

Sour Kraut or sauerkraut?

Wizofoz

19th Jan 2011, 11:24

Dear Halas, my maid earns more than I had to pay for my indian cleaner in DXB,

Yes, but does she earn what you would have to pay her if you were in Germany?

What would a Golf Membership with the Equivelent workforce paid a German-style, unionised workforce cost?

Less exploitive is still exploitation.

Schibulsky

19th Jan 2011, 12:26

Of course I don't pay her german wages...what's the point? A doctor in Indonesia earns far less than a german maid!! Does local cost of living tell you something? Btw if you calculate the salary I pay her for the 12 hours a week up to a full time job, it's 70% of a doctor's :eek:
And you might not believe it, but I rent out my local real estate also NOT for german rates. :ooh:
I don't exploit, I don't abuse and I pay all my staff very good, just because that's how I was raised...compare that to the treatment/payment the Indonesian maids get in the Middle East, especially in Saudi! :yuk:
And my "unionized" golf club in Germany cost less than what I pay here. Ask your green keeper, with the modern machinery the amount of workers to operate the mowers etc. are almost the same everywhere.

I didn't come here just for a cheap life...NO, it's exactly the same reason I left that sandy sh!thole...QUALITY OF LIFE, plus a great climate, nice and friendly people and a sunny green island with some beautiful nature as a topping! :ok:

...do I hear some "white noise" in the background? :E

Wizofoz

19th Jan 2011, 12:57

SOOOOO....

It's fine and dandy for you to pay according to the going rate where you reside.

But if an airline does so and get's a competitive advantage as a result.......

You are aware, of course, that Emirates is one of the best paid jobs in most catagories of workers it employs in the greater region? There's a reason people come from all over the world to work for them.

And why is it that your current residence has a better quality of life for you than your Unionised, Tarrifed, Subsidised Homeland???

Oh, yeah-

QUALITY OF LIFE, plus a great climate, nice and friendly people and a sunny green island with some beautiful nature as a topping!

That would be why hundreds of thousands of Indonesians have to leave their home country to find work overseas? Not a little in part because of the upward pressure on cost of living foreiners coming in to live cheap cause?

4HolerPoler

19th Jan 2011, 13:27

Guys please get this thread back on track & avoid using it as a vehicle for trading personal insults and character assessments of retired individuals in Bali.

Schibulsky

19th Jan 2011, 13:44

OMFG...reading is really not your strong point!
I overpay and I spoil my staff...call me an idiot for that if you like,
but don't f:mad:g call me an exploiter!! :=
I pay at least double the wages of Dubai and the cost of living here is a fraction of that in Dubai.

And please tell me what's the "going rate" in the UAE and who defines it?
Is it the 500 dhs EK pays his cleaners a month for a 12hrs/6days/week without a flight home in 3 years?
Or the "normal rate" for expats, normally based on skin color?
Or are you talking about the "additional rate" for Emiratis?
Most probably you are only talking about the pilot's rates...
Gimme a break man...you seem to have no friggin idea what the average rate is at EK...anyway they couldn't pay me enough to take all their sh!t!!

And I would happily live in unionized, organized Germany munching nice Schnitzel all day...but somehow I cannot find an island there with
temperatures around 30 degrees all year and a 12 months golf season:{

You have also not a trace of a clue about life in Indonesia:
There is probably not a single Balinese working in the middle east as a maid...because they got enough jobs here due to the tourist industry and the expats, it's the other way around, thousands of Indonesians from other parts are moving to Bali for work...The 10000000000000 Indonesians who are, according to you, leaving their country to work overseas haven't even seen a white face in their area or in their whole life, so WTF is the "upward pressure on their cost of living"??? :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Sorry moderator, but the ignorance here is just getting too much...

Wizofoz

19th Jan 2011, 15:57

You're right WK,

Schz doesn't like people dis-agreeing with him, PARTICULARLY when it is shown he doesn't practice what he preaches....

White Knight

19th Jan 2011, 16:04

but the ignorance here is just getting too much...

Yep schibulsky - although you'll not see this you are showing what an ignorant fellow you really are. Nice rant:}:}:}by the way!

Hook

19th Jan 2011, 17:07

my maid earns more than I had to pay for my indian cleaner in DXB

and

overpay and I spoil my staff...call me an idiot for that if you like, but don't fhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifg call me an exploiter!! :=
I pay at least double the wages of Dubai and the cost of living here is a fraction of that in Dubai.

Err, sorry old chap, so that means you WERE exploiting your indian cleaner in Dubai......tut tut

You exploiter you.....:}

Schibulsky

20th Jan 2011, 02:58

Dear WK, Wiz and all others helping me see the light,

I see my shortcomings now as a hypocrite, an exploiter and a general low life.
Thank you for sharing your wisdom and exposing my utter ignorance.
I humbly admit that it was pure envy that made me question your superiority, now I also know why it was GW Bush, a pilot, who made
this world a better place...thank you!
You soar through the blue yonder like a free bird untouched by the lowly existence on the ground. I am just a slave of my
co-directors and I will never achieve your divine status. I beg your forgiveness mighty Knight, and ask permission to take you off my ignore list.
It was foolish and will prevent me from receiving your priceless advise...may be after I exploit the poor workers in Bali, Malaysia, South Africa and
Mozambique to reap in some undeserved high profits, you the guiding light of intelligence could tell me how much profit share my worthless existence should receive.
I was also an ungrateful dispatcher (please excuse speaking of this useless profession in this exclusive circle) to reject the blessings of
the free society of Dubai and the motherly care of Emirates...I sincerely apologize for my shameful behavior.
I also thank you for showing me how to sophisticatedly conduct a discussion, with that unlimited background information you achieved as godlike masters of the airways, you simply destroyed my pathetic attempt of reasoning. I also learned a lot of new fascinating words that I can use to take on the enemies
of free trade and globalization....thank you...thank you...thank you!!!

So I rest my case and hang my head in shame...

dustyprops

20th Jan 2011, 03:51

Thank god for that, this thread was complete **** anyway!!!!!!

Cpt. Underpants

20th Jan 2011, 04:05

I propose that Schibulsky is immediately beatified.

White Knight

20th Jan 2011, 04:47

Now where was the bit that I discussed exploited workers? Seems to me I was discussing LH, EK and the German public that fill EKs' several times a day flights to Deutschland... And it went down like a 1000lb bomb - sorry, lead balloon:E:E

Hopefully the thread will go back to topic!!!!!!!!!!!!

sheikmyarse

20th Jan 2011, 07:54

Yeah let's go to back the topic. EK vs LH.
Such a shame in Germany the Nazi are not in power any more. In that case they would have had so many things in common that they could have actually formed an alliance.

Wizofoz

20th Jan 2011, 10:38

Schibulsky,

No, it is we who owe you an appology.

Please accept it with all our humility.

You see, you made the completely valid point that EK were exploiting bastards because some of their employees earn less than your current employees (i.e about the same as your former employees) and, as the correct amount to pay an employee to not be exploiting them is EXACTLEY the amount you have decided, this should not be explored, challenged or questioned.

Some one is exploited if you say they are exploited, and are not if you decided how much to pay them.

That much should have been obvious,

We're sorry....

MrMachfivepointfive

20th Jan 2011, 11:16

Uh -oh ... as EK versus Lufti has kind of dried up now, what about EK versus SAS?
TC has just announced CPH from 01.08.

Schibulsky

20th Jan 2011, 12:52

Oh mighty wizard, I beg you not to kick my worthless corpus already prone and humiliated in front of you.
Esteemed squire, I have hitherto admired your wisdom but you also put my pathetic attempt of humor to shame by delivering a response that rivals the great quills of Shakespeare and Kipling. Your wit, the artistry of your sarcasm and thy command of the lingua franca is indeed masterly...

P.S. In case you have problems to comprehend the message, here in short Oz lingo:
Pretty lame attempt mate!:hmm:

P.P.S. what part of "I rest my case" needs further explanation?

White Knight

20th Jan 2011, 17:05

but if the home grown industry only has a chance to compete by getting rid of all the social duties we want in the west as a society

This will NEVER happen because of UNIONS... When tug-drivers get paid more than F/Os at places like BA then it shows how the west is screwing it's own industry...

I was in BALPA once - total waste of time:{:{

Schibulsky

21st Jan 2011, 01:03

...a well balanced and thought through post.:ok:
I am done with the handbags but you already got a taste of what the state of mind of some EK apologists is, brace for more!

Unions, the evil forces that destroy the work of the noble managers!
I dont know a lot about Balpa, but we are talking about LH, where the unions are an integral part of the success and the social stability.
As in whole Germany the unions and companies mostly try to work together to solve problems and survive any crisis. Why is the most unionized industry, like car makers and machinery engineering, the backbone of the success story of Germany's export?
Just look at the sad state of the US industry leading to the eradication of the middle class caused to a great extend by union bashing! Although the neo-cons, while giving tax breaks for companies shipping jobs out of the US, will blame the unions for that as well.

With the power the corporations have over most governments, the slogans like "globalization", "fair trade" and "developing nations" are just that...smoke and mirrors for their greedy plans to make the whole world a big market without any rules for them.

But like you see there are always selfish individuals who see a union as an kind of worthless insurance policy and don't see the social responsibilities with their co-workers.
As long as they are getting a high salary they are fine with everybody else getting shafted...they are the perfect puppets for the masters in the middle east...and watch them cry foul when THEY eventually get f:mad:d.

A big problem of globalization is the trend to raise the profits to western standard but lower the conditions for workers to third world level...and thereby destroying what generations have fought for...the outcome will sadly be social unrest...

halas

21st Jan 2011, 15:52

mein verehrter Schibulsky is quite correct!

Mister studi should be aware of "all the problems with underprized subsidized usage of infrastructure and finance" that are happening within the EU, particularly with CAP.

Nearly half the EU budget goes toward subsidising agriculture.

So from the rest of the world, GET STUFFED, we don't care if you don't like other country's policies in regard to anything!

It doesn't matter where l live, you are screwing every one (the rest of the globe!) with this little treasure!

halas

ps Greece/Ireland/etc could do with some of that cash!!!!:}

White Knight

21st Jan 2011, 22:17

Hey Schib. The Philippines is a LOT CHEAPER than Bali! But then again, if you flew there you'd realise that:ok

Noble managers? Never been such a thing! Do NOT tell ME how to live my life oh 'sour kraut'. Or should I say mein freund! Excuse me for spending my childhood in the Fatherland and learning to speak, read and write German... Couldn't wait to get back to Mother England; and humour, wit, fish & chips and beer without two inches of stupid, pointless BUBBLES:ugh::ugh:

Schibulsky

22nd Jan 2011, 02:23

Isn't this about LH and EK???
Didn't know the farmers were running the airlines in the EU...:eek:
Please take this one
So from the rest of the world, GET STUFFED, we don't care if you don't like other country's policies in regard to anything!
and replace "rest of the world" with Germany or Canada and "other country's" with the Middle (age) east.
Oooops, happened already?!...lots of complaints about that I think!
Anyway, I thought we started to discuss this topic reasonably again...but cherry picking one line to ridicule the entire post doesn't really help...:(

@WK
"Noble managers"...never ever thought you would be any of that. ;)
The Philippines is a LOT CHEAPER than Bali! VOT?:confused:
But then again, if you flew there you'd realise that again...VOT? :confused:
And dear Knight...I would never dare to tell you how to live your life...EK is taking care of that!! :E
And honestly, I really don't give a rodent's behind where you spent your childhood or if you rather have a beverage that looks like a urine sample than having some "head" with it :p
Btw. the multiple use of "sour Kraut" is sooo witty:D, what's next?...Nazis, Potatoes or WWII??:ugh:

dustyprops

22nd Jan 2011, 03:00

Anyone else think this has turned into a mindnumbingly boring bitch fight between two of our colleagues. Get a room guys or at least carry on through the vessel that is PM's.

Thanks.

Oblaaspop

22nd Jan 2011, 05:39

No dusty I don't!

WK IS one of our colleagues, Shib is NOT! He left a while back after a short stint as a dispatcher before winding up the people he worked with/for and being 'encouraged' to resign (this by his own admission I might add), now it seems he has sufficiently c0ck all else to do in Bali apart from wind PILOTS up on a Professional PILOT forum............. The thing is, none of us PILOTS can figure out why! :ugh:

Hey Shib, move along old chap, we realise you hate EK and bare a huge grudge and chip on your shoulder about what happened to you, the thing is, you now have a great life (again we only have your word on this), so go and enjoy and stop trying to get a rise from people still working in your old company!

Trader

22nd Jan 2011, 06:52

Look - it is clear - ANYONE can post on these forums!!! We don't have to agree with them. Or have some of you been in Dubai so long that you now succumb to the notion that restricting speech is some how acceptable?

Some love it, some hate it - most of us are right in the middle.

Most of us can read between the lines so let us be. We don't need the thought police on the forum.

Schibulsky

22nd Jan 2011, 10:02

Looks like for some guys, not agreeing with you is "winding you up"! A Sophomoric attitude could be one reson.
I leave it to the moderators to decide who started to insult me, my lifestyle, my profession and my nationality...and even continued after I tried to get the discussion back to the original LH/EK issue.
Oblaaspoep probably also likes to close all non-pilot forums like "Ground and Other Ops Forum" (where no ATCO or dispatcher ever tells pilots to F off!) because this is a PILOT site...:ugh:
I carry the FACT that AAR screamed at my VP to fire me, as a badge of honor...I left because I got enough of that clown show and not out of fear of being fired (anyway, to my knowledge they never managed to fire any ground staff below VP, that happened only to PILOTS).
Who of you chicken hawks ever had the balls to really take on the management??
Who of you heros with the big balls ever reported sick several time for the same flight, like I did for every single early shift of a month, just to show them that fatigue is an issue?!?!
It's probably much easier to pretend everything is fine or kick the own dog instead...:ok:
I don't hold a grudge against EK, I just feel sorry for that outfit that could be a good company and a lot more sorry for the delusional opportunists who like to sell it as the pinnacle of aviation!!

Rant over...off to the beach club:p

IXNAT

22nd Jan 2011, 12:01

Thank you Trader. Said what I've been thinking all along. It's a friggin forum, not newspaper articles or news dispatches. Discredit the messenger not the message seems to be the new thought/speech police here now. Sound familiar? Oh, I forgot the grammar and spelling goons as well. Please stick to the topic. If you don't like the topic, close it on your computer.

Pitch Up Authority

22nd Jan 2011, 12:10

International trade with the countries of the ME must be accompanied by universal political and human right issues.

EK should be - based on their dubious agenda and tactics - be severely restricted to fly to any Western country.

The fact that they buy Airbus or Boeing should have nothing to do with it.

Not Lufthansa but the EU Parliment should take this initiative.

pool

22nd Jan 2011, 12:33

International trade with the countries of the ME must be accompanied by universal political and human right issues.

EK should be - based on their dubious agenda and tactics - be severely restricted to fly to any Western country.

... but it's ok when US airlines fly into China and trade with them is a blessing, as they suck up your debts. Their No1 just got the red carpet in the US.....
Nice double standard.

Pitch Up Authority

22nd Jan 2011, 12:50

Pool

You have to start somewhere. The ME is an area with a lot of problems.

The EU can not allow, a family that owns a country, to abuse it's sovereign status for it's own intrest.

A lot of the ex-pats that work in the ME are there out of sheer egocentric reasons rejecting the principles of solidarity.

I know the world is not perfect but you have to start somewhere.

pool

22nd Jan 2011, 15:13

Agree, but why does everyone want the guys to start that are the biggest threat to their own economy, as opposed to start themselves?
Start with no longer buying their oil and no longer selling them aircraft.
Oooops, but that would also hurt your own economy ......

What to do?????

Desertbannanas

23rd Jan 2011, 00:19

Pool:

The US flies to China. The UAE flies to the USA. China flies to the USA. USA flies to the UAE.

So Your point is... ?

If you want to break it down and start looking at who buys what you might as well just look at where the GDP of each country goes.

My point: The US buys alot more from China than China of the US.

Same for US/UAE.

This is not forced buying. You get that... you are selling the oil. YOU are benefiting from selling your oil. You cannot say, that because the US buys oil, then you must get landing slots, because guess what, the fair trade already occured. You set the price for the oil, and the US paid it. One asset for another.

If your trying to equate fairness and balance in terms of buying aircraft, and that having some relation to entitled landing slots, im sorry, you cannot sell me that argument intelligently.