Loss of Licence

[Alcatraz69]

Anybody knows of an alternative private scheme in the Middle east for Loss of license other than the one provided by the Airline ?

[Wizofoz]

EK has it's own, member run scheme-L.I.P.S.

I am not aware of other regional airlines having anything similar, but ours has been very successful.

[sanook]

An absolute "Must have" You never know when......

[Kapitanleutnant]

Colleage of mine mentioned he spoke to
a LIPS representative recently who told him if EK pays out
then they (LIPS) pay out.
Just what i was told.

K

[Alcatraz69]

Any PM's are welcome

[Dune]

Colleage of mine mentioned he spoke to
a LIPS representative recently who told him if EK pays out
then they (LIPS) pay out.
Just what i was told.

Correct. The LIPS coverage is supplemental to the EK coverage. EK pays full basic pay for 3 years and then LIPS pays 25,000 dhs/month to age 60 (with cost of living adjustments) once the EK coverage ceases.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Dune:

Just to clarify if you happen to know,
Is it your understanding LIPS would NOT start paying
Their 25,000 per month until 3 years after
EK payed out or does LIPS start payment the same time
EK pays out?

K

[Mister Warning]

Incorrect, Dune.
EK pays 3 years lump sum and at the same time LIPS will commence the monthly benefit.

[Alcatraz69]

Thanks Guys .. Keep the info coming. I have learnt a few things already

[Desertbannanas]

For comparison: what do the guys in AUH get? Ie: Etihad

[Dune]

Mister Warning

Incorrect, Dune. EK pays 3 years lump sum and at the same time LIPS will commence the monthly benefit.

You may be right Mister Warning (see FAQ #5 below from the LIPS website Loss of Income Protection for Emirates Pilots (http://www.lipsek.org/)......... depending on how you interpret the response to the question.

Irrespective it is good coverage for the price and I'm glad to be a contributor.



Frequently Asked Questions

1. Does LIPS cover all pilots from all airlines?

LIPS is loss of license protection for Emirates pilots and we do not cover anyone other than our own pilots.

2. What if an individual was fired and lost his UAE licence?

LIPS will only cover you should you lose your licence due do to medical reasons which are not self inflicted (e.g. you poke your own eye out on purpose), of a mental health nature or pre existing.

3. What is the retirement age?

Although Emirates and many carriers now operate until 65 for the time being LIPS considers 60 years as normal retirement age. This may in the future be revised to 65 but there are no immediate plans to do so.

4. I am now 42 years old. Let`s say that I lose my license today. You would have to pay out 5.4 million AED’s, and that’s calculated on 25,000 per month only. Do you have that kind of money?

As the fund stands we have enough to cover over 5 times the industry average loss of license. As the membership increases this will only get better and favour the scheme as a whole. Members' contributions are very carefully managed and invested. Cash is currently the largest composition of the fund, by far.

5. When will LIPS make its first payment to you when you are unable to work due to sickness or injury?

LIPS will pay once we have received the GCAA Medical Board certification of loss of pilot medical - and the Emirates loss of license insurance entitlement has been received by the member.

6. If your injury is permanent (i.e. Loss of License) will LIPS pay no matter where you live? What is the cover for Captains and for First Officers?

Regardless of rank or time in the scheme LIPS will pay AED 25,000 per month no matter where you choose to relocate to. This amount increases yearly by 3% per annum, to a maximum of AED 35,000 per month.

7. If you lose your License but gain income from another source how does this affect the payments?

LIPS will continue to pay you the full amount as long as you are unable to hold a valid license and medical in any country. Should the committee feel that your personal disability circumstances have changed, you could be asked to present yourself to a doctor for further examination.

8. Which Doctor/organisation is entitled to declare a loss of licence?

UAE GCAA as the licensing authority are the only ones who can remove your license on medical grounds.

9. What about partial loss of licence?

No such thing - you have a license (possibly with conditions) or you don't.

10. What about if after a loss of licence I am able to work (non flying)?

That is up to you - LIPS pays regardless of other income.

11. Can I live anywhere (out of the UAE) when I lose my licence? Must the bank account be in the UAE for the payment?

You may (and in fact probably must, if you lose employment with EK!) live where you like and similarly bank where you like.

12. If the fund is short of cash/money, what are the rules? What happens first?

If there are too many claimants then the income of the fund is divided equally amongst the claimants. Remember though that statistically 3 out of 10000 will claim and that LIPS can support 1 out of 80!

13. If my Pilots Medical was suspended and I was to take a Ground Instructor position and at a later date if my Pilots Medical was permanently revoked, would LIPS honour my Loss of Licence benefit?

You will be covered and will be eligible to make a claim should you permanently have your licence cancelled, even though you may be forced to become a ground instructor. As long as your monthly contributions to LIPS continue, you will remain a LIPS member - and you do remain covered.

14. I have been contemplating joining LIPS for the last year now as I have heard through the grapevine that there have been some pilots whom have a had trouble placing claims because of the definition of "Permanent Loss" vs "Temporary". Could you kindly provide me with what exactly would constitute a Permanent Loss of License as described by the GCAA? Other pilots have told me that the GCAA has no real definition of "Permanent" so someone with a medical condition could sit in limbo indefinitely.

LIPS would consider the loss of license to be permanent when all medical evidence indicates that a pilot can no longer hold a valid medical certificate in any country. Generally, as a guideline only, this would be when a pilot receives his/her loss of license benefit payout from Emirates.

15. Has LIPS ever refused a claim made by a pilot, after he/she submitted a formal payout claim to LIPS?

LIPS has NOT refused any claim made, by any LIPS member, to date.

16. Do benefit payments stay at Dhs 25,000 per month? What about inflation?

As per the Rules, LIPS benefits increase by 3% per year, to a maximum of Dhs 35,000 per month.

17. Are there any LIPS death benefits payable to my family, in the event I die?

Yes, your beneficiary will receive a 100% return of all your LIPS contributions in the event you die, while still a LIPS member. Please refer to the Rules for additional details

[Desertbannanas]

Indeed Sec.

Just speaking with a colleague over coffee on this issue. Anyone please jump in and correct.

Etihad: non lump sum, 5 years only, 4000/mo(half basic salary) only after 6 months off.
Emirates: 3 year lump sum full basic, then lips till 60!

Huge difference!

Add that to no pension at Etihad, pension at Emirates....

Bonus at Emirates, none at Etihad...

There is huge disparity in compensation.

Glad I made the right decision.

[Mister Warning]

40&80.
LIPS was set up using actuarial advice just like any other financial product.
The difference is that it is run by a group of pilots who make no profit from their involvement. They are there to assist any claimant as opposed to insurance companies whose main aim after taking your premium is to deny your benefit. EK management are not involved.
Although past performance is no guarantee for the future, LIPS can withstand 3 times the statistical industry historical loss of license.
As for "It is my experience most pilots that are ill enough to lose their licence permanently soon die" - suggest you visit any simulator center in the world and hang out near the coffee machine until you see the oldest guy there. Then ask him about the L1011 or DC8 he used to pole... :ok:

[Mister Warning]

Agreed. :)

[helen-damnation]

I comment thus because two Harley Street eminent cardiologist I once flew to Auh from LHR to attend to the leader of AUH specifically warned me in 1980 about the risks my rosters caused and how to mitigate their effect.


Care to elaborate on that advice please?

[Desertbannanas]

3040,

Loss of License insurance and income protection insurance are totally different things than term life insurance.

Therefore your argument of the latter in replacement of the former is irrelevant.

You can have term life, but what are you going to do if you lose your license and live on? Your suggestion that those that lose their licenses for the most part die quickly afterward is plain stupid.

[Desertbannanas]

Life insurance should always be an absolute must have. 99% of employers provide it automatically. It pays out if you die or perhaps if you become a veg.

Most loss of license cases involve an individual being unable to be medically licensed due to some sort of debilitation. It is far from the end of life and your suggestion that these people die shortly after is just plain false. These people need a source of income after such an event and "term life insurance" does not provide it unless you die. So suggesting it as a replacement is not correct.

You cannot compare payouts of the 2 because they are totally different. One involves dying so of course the payout is more.

Anyway, term life is a must, but that is not what this issue is about my friend. It's about loss of license for the still living.

Enjoy your retirement.

[Desertbannanas]

4080,

For someone who writes so much, you don't read do you?
Your input is appreciated and well received, I was simply pointing out that you cannot replace lol insurance with term life. They are TOTALLY different.
If you have a rebuttal, let's hear it. No need to go off sulking on the corner.

[Szafran]

I'd be interested to know what actuarial advice was sought because the LIPs 'income protection' scheme sounds a little precarious in the long-term.

It's a great idea that Emirate pilots help fund each other for when they can no longer work but the payment tail on a claim has the potential to be huge.

Forgetting that the payment will increase annually if a 30 year old was to loss their licence they would receive DH300,000 in total a year for the full 30 years until they were 60.

By the time the pilot's policy expires he would have received not only 3x his annual salary as payment from Emirates but also DH9million from LIPS.

That works out as roughly $2.5million from LIPS, plus roughly $500k from Emirates, and then whatever wage they earn from their non-pilot job. Sounds like an absolute steal of a policy!

The advice is the account could absorb 8 claims, the number of pilots on this scheme would have to grow parallel with the tail of the claims otherwise it could eventually make a loss, and who pays for the claims then? The more pilots there are on the scheme the more chance you have of getting a claim.

[MosEisley]

So, MW, according to the info here, if an individual receives the EK payout, he/she will automatically be paid by LIPS? Interesting.

[Wizofoz]

Don't think that's what anyone said, Mos.

LIPS is payable if you cannot hold a Class 1 medical anywhere, so it would be possible to recieve the EK benefit because of not meeting GCAA requirements, but still being eligable for a medical elsewhere.

[MosEisley]

Wiz, this is a quote from MW:

Incorrect, Dune.
EK pays 3 years lump sum and at the same time LIPS will commence the monthly benefit.

That sounds pretty definitive.

I understand that the stipulation is that you must not be able to hold a class 1 medical in any country in which you are eligible to work. Therefore, if an individual loses the GCAA medical, and is similarly unable to obtain a class 1 in his/her home country, then LIPS should pay out.

[Wizofoz]

Yes, they should.

What I think MW meant is, IF those conditions are met, LIPS starts paying as soon as EK has paid the lump sum. This was in response to a question as to whether you have to wait three years for LIPS to kick in.

You don't, but the disability must disqualify you in other countries, not just the UAE.

You obviously have some reservations about LIPS. I'd be interested to kow what you think the problem is.

[Will Rogers]

So here is a question:

I have my UAE GCAA ATPL as well as a JAA ATPL and an FAA ATP. I'm not eligible to work in the US but have the license since I did my initial training there.

If I were to loose my GCAA medical then I would most likely also lose my JAA medical as the requirements are almost the same. There is however a chance that I could still get a FAA Class 1 medical as the FAA system is more ability based and "forgiving" then the two previously mentioned.

This would leave me in a situation where I would have a valid license in a country where I can not work = no flying income. I would still technically be able to ge A medical though... How would LIPS view a situation like that?

I seem to remember that when I signed up for LIPS the policy would pay out if I lost my UAE medical. No mention of ALL medicals...

Appreciate any input!

Will :)

[Eric Carr]

This would leave me in a situation where I would have a valid license in a country where I can not work
Move to Vegas, marry a stripper named Honey, get your green card and enjoy your life in a Beech-18 flying sightseeing in the Canyons:ok:
I know I would:E

[fourgolds]

I wander if the Actuary that drafted the scheme projected the "increased annual flight times at EK "into his calculation . A few years ago 70 to 75 hrs a month was the norm . Now almost 90hrs most months , and over 900 hrs a year ( rememeber bunk time does not count so you may well spend well over 900 hrs a year on the plane). Take from this the time off EK pilots used to enjoy for exercise ( they had lots more) to mitigate some of the effects of potential illness. Increased polar opps ( and there is more to come) etc etc and I think we may see a significant rise in claims. The scheme is great on paper and I have no reason yet to doubt that LIPS and EK will pay out if required . However I have grown pessimistic here over the years seeing that the minute something is costing money they simply change the rules ( especially EK) . .... and if EK dont pay out then neither will LIPS !

Definition of a pessimist , an optimist with experience.

[Will Rogers]

relv3: I understand that this is what the policy states NOW but I am fairly certain that when I first signed up a few years ago it didn't say the same thing. I believe it stated that if you lost your UAE medical. After all that is what I'm insured for as far as I'm concerned. I look forward to hearing about your experiences :) Thanks :ok:

Now lets say I loose my UAE medical... Just cause I can get another medical somewhere else doesn't guarantee me a job anywhere and the only reason that I (in this case) would have lost my current job with EK would be cause I lost my UAE medical. That is why I entered in to the LIPS scheme, to insure against a loss of my job at EK as a result of loosing my UAE medical. I did not, nor did any of the people I know that are also in LIPS, enter in to it to insure against a loss of any other medical license.

May be time to exit the scheme... :hmm:

For comparason does anyone know how airlines like BA, LH, AF, SK, etc handle their loss of license in these regards? And yes, I know it's not the same but would still be of interest...

Will

[captainsmiffy]

....after years of reading posts by highly qualified and intelligent pilots....can we have a pelesys course, please, on the spelling/use of the word 'loose/lose'?!! You can LOSE a medical; it will NEVER - NOT EVER - become 'LOOSE'! A screw can become 'LOOSE' (and then, of course, you might LOSE it!). Now, back to the arguement.....

[Mister Warning]

If it is undiagnosed, the committee will disallow the claim....