Hughes 300 "beheaded" in Brazil - ground resonance?

[helihub]

Ground resonance is being suggested for this one in Brazil.

Press report here (Google translation) (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.atribunarj.com.br%2Fnoticia.php%3Fid%3D62 15%26titulo%3DACIDENTE%2520COM%2520HELIC%25D3PTERO%2520EM%25 20MARIC%25C1%2520DEIXA%2520DOIS%2520FERIDOS)

http://i0.ig.com/fw/76/e6/wn/76e6wnlis8kq5pbebdedip2z3.jpg

[ShyTorque]

Doesn't sound or look like ground resonance to me.

Firstly, the report said the aircraft was airborne at the time of the problem. Secondly, ground resonance usually ends up with the helicopter lying on its side.

The photos sugggest a catastrophic gearbox problem, or other airborne failure, leading to a very heavy landing. The fact that there is no main rotor gearbox present could have occurred from a MRG seizure or as a result of the very heavy landing.

Hopefully the injured occupants will recover, this looks very nasty.

[AdamFrisch]

Looks like blood on the front bottom window.:sad:

[VeeAny]

I hope they both recover soon, not nice from the photos.

I'll be very interested to see the outcome of the investigation.

[Hughes500]

Blimey
Never ever seen a 300 ( this looks like a 269B) with no mast tube on let alone the disc completely missing, where has it gone ??? Even more so when you consider the rear x beam has done its job and collapsed, either the disc came off in flight and luckily the ac landed upright( unlikely) or the impact was so severe the blades drooped down and cut off the cabin and the mast failed ( more likely) as there is a chunk of horiz stab missing, so disc came off going backwards or to one side taking out the stab)
Think they were rather lucky

[Hughes500]

Just had another look one mrb is just visible on th eground next to tailboom. The machine must have landed very hevily on the rear as front x beam shows no deformation. Perhaps ac touched down on rear, full forward cylic which then cut off cabin and caused mast to fail ??:uhoh:

[Agaricus bisporus]

I think the lack of cabin top may have more to do with rescue cutters than rotor blades. All the uprights are neatly severed, some at the same height & not ripped unevenly and the fella in the RHS is clearly not in good shape. If back injuries are suspected as the description suggests, it is a likely scenario.

[elro]

By the look of the landing gear and shocks id say the pilot has at least suffered spinal compression, evidence of the pilot sitting upright in the cockpit after the accident would suggest this. Surprised how he is relatively intact in comparison to the cabin:uhoh:

[pitot212]

I can't see any mrb by the tailboom! The report states that the rotor system was more the 50 metres away. MR gearbox problem I think, not resonance.

[chopperchappie]

I've seen on the Schweizer/Sikorsky website one of the features of the H300 on the brochure is that the MR blades are designed not to encroach into the crew area in the event of an incident.

I have always wondered if that's really going to work, with some scepticism.

Given the available pictures of the poor guy on the deck receiving medical attention, and from what I can see of the injuries, I guess it works as well as can be expected. Mind you he looks a bit shorter than me - but there must have been debris going everywhere, time to be wearing a helmet visor down, gloves etc etc..

What I find interesting is the stigma associated with wearing a helmet for anything other than where it's mandated (Rigs, EMS, etc). I have mixed views on the subject but I have heard people I respect poo-poo-ing the idea. Am I being over sensitive?

CC

[helihub]

Another article (google translation) (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.atribunarj.com.br%2Fnoticia.php%3Fid%3D62 15%26titulo%3DACIDENTE%2520COM%2520HELIC%25D3PTERO%2520EM%25 20MARIC%25C1%2520DEIXA%2520DOIS%2520FERIDOS) gives the injuries as "both were in serious condition, having suffered Geovani orthopedic trauma, vascular, and Daniel, limb trauma.". A later report quotes them as "now being stable", thank goodness

The article includes a photo of one of them being treated on the apron before being put onto a spine board. Plenty of blood so only look-see for the non-squeamish, and hence pic not added to this post.

[Hell Man]

helihub: The images appear the same as those of the link in post #1.

cc: the MR blades are designed not to encroach into the crew area in the event of an incident

Would love to see that piece of propaganda. Crash dynamics are notoriously unpredictable and I wonder how Sikorsky would be able to make such a guarantee.


where it's mandated (Rigs, EMS, etc).


I am not aware of any industry sectors where helmets are mandated by the FAA (or other body) and in offshore operations (globally) it is still a rare practice with Australia being one of the foremost users.

Most non-military helmet use has been spawned by organizational culture (imported from the military) such as among EMS and police which are the highest users followed by the aerial work sector.

Why do you give a damn about what others think or say? A helmet (the right kind) can save your hearing and maybe even your life and is appropriate for just about all types of work except maybe exec ops.

HM

[Hughes500]

P212
Look in the bottom right corner you will just see the curled tip of a main rotor blade !
Have seen 4 crash remains of 300's not one has had the mast removed, all have had both cross beams bent at more than 90 degrees , blades have stayed attached to machine along with rotor mast, so God only knows what happened here,must be trx failure with a sieze to take that lot off. But hey I am only speculating

[pitot212]

:ugh: Hughes500 i thought that was the tail rotor! I can see it now. I too have seen some wrecked 300's over the years and as you say the mast has always remained. This has to be a catastrophic MR gearbox problem. I wonder if the box has been overhauled recently?

[chopperchappie]

I generally meant mandated by the commercial organization rather than the CAA/JAA/FAA - in the UK we have so much Health and Safety focus, they won't even let us carry handguns around. Strange but true!

"Why do I care what other people think"
Erm... My actual question was "Am I being too sensitive" - I guess so, still if we didn't care what other's think, we wouldn't be reading and commenting.

I also saw the little frag of "blade" but I thought it was possibly the aerofoil from the top of the cabin as it didn't seem fat enough to be MR blade, but who can say?

Picture on page 8 of the brochure below but I think someone else pointed out there are a couple of bits (pedals, vertical fin) that make it look like a "pre-269C/300C" so might not be 100% valid on earlier models but if the MR Mast went without striking the ground, as it potentially seems to have done, the picture kind of depends where the MR Mast is at the time.

http://www.sacusa.com/products/pdfs/300C_TechData.pdf

Good news about the crew

OOPs and I realised I can't spell Incrsion - DOH !
CC

[helihub]

the exact type is a 269A-1

[nobloodywind]

Looks like blood on the front bottom window


good imagination,it's a map. and a bit of blade on ground.
blades could not reach stabilizer could they unless they were displaced? tail boom not bent? wouldn't a heavy vertical with blades attached normally impact the boom?

[rotornut]

Could the mast bearing have seized? Then the driveshaft would have fractured and most likely broken through the M/R mast. Meanwhile the blades would have abruptly stopped and flapped down ito the cabin.

[Hughes500]

Rnut think you will find that there would be too much torque for the thrust bearing to cause a seize ie the drive system would overcome the bearing. The main rotor trx seizing would cause the driveshaft to shear off, however the mast is a serious piece of metal to let go !

[rotornut]

'500
You are probably right. Having helped disassemble a mast on a 269B I know how strong it is. But I haven't heard of a 300 M/R gearbox failing - for that matter a T/R gearbox on a 300 series.

[Hughes500]

Rnut
Have had a totth come off the ring gear in mr trx, totth about the size of first joint of little finger. Only knew about it when one could hear a clicking sound when the blades were slowing with engine shutdown. If that had wedged in the ring gear:{

[rotornut]

Bet that was expensive! But not as expensive if it had happened on a Bell 47.

[Hughes500]

Actually not too bad seem to remember about $ 5500 for a new ring gear !However still cant see a gearbox seizure taking off the rotor mast

[rotornut]

Relatively cheap. I've heard horror stories about M/R gearbox parts for 47s, not to mention just about everything else. Like $40,000 and up for an overhaul:eek:

[500e]

Don't even think about MR blades for 47 if you have a weak diusposition

[rotornut]

I know... incredible prices:eek:

[Winnie]

There was a gearbox seizure in Canada a few years ago, in Quebeck.

It took the entire rotor system off, and spun the helicopter around a bit. This happened on the ground.

MRGB in overhaul put together wrong...

Cheers
H.

[Soave_Pilot]

It says the problem started while they were airborne, so, that rules out the ground resonance theory.

cheers

[pitot212]

Hughes500 I now think it is the canopy slat that is by the tail rotor, and Winnie my thoughts exactly!!!

[Bcopters500]

It looks like maybe the mast took off,they sometimes crack around the flight control support around the mast half way down and the pin wheel goes for a ride.
We had lower carriers crack back in the day and one bearing siezed on the ground,The rotor came to a standing still motion.

[Hughes500]

212
No thats a blade, can tell by the last section being yellow as per blades get painted, plus its too wide for a slat and the curve is wrong. But agree can only think that the trx seized. Mind you the heli is realitvle undamaged if it was flying at the time all things considered !

[pitot212]

I think I am going to have to agree to disagree with you on this one, but that's not the issue. I think that the gearbox has recently been overhauled or the oil for some reason was maybe missing and like winnie says in Canada a few years ago a similar event occurred but the helicopter was sitting on the ground when it happened and this was due to an error made by the overhaul shop fitting a gasket the wrong way round and a critical oil port was covered! I also had this happen to me, on running up the helicopter after the gearbox had just come back from the overhaul shop the engineer spotted the oil pouring out from the seal and I shut down immediately. When talking to the overhaulers they came down that evening worked through the night and amend their error and they couldn't apologise enough. It's only really now that I can appreciate the consequences of what might have happened.

It seems this helicopter had managed to take off before they lost their rotor system, probably got just a couple of meters high....very very lucky to be alive. Thank god they are and hope they make a speedy recovery.