Aerobatic Teams- G Suits

[Harley Quinn]

Just caught an episode of 'How Do They Do It?' on Channel 5. One article concerned the US Navy Blue Angels. I was surprised to see that they fly without g suits because the operation of the suit during close formation flying may cause unwanted control inputs. Are they unique in this approach, what do the European teams do?

[Wrathmonk]

I always thought the Reds did not wear g-suits for displays however the photo here (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Red.arrows.pilot.arp.jpg)(if the associated caption is to be believed - it is from the 'wiki' family after all;)) would suggest otherwise.

[charliegolf]

Synchro pair, perhaps?

CG

[Pure Pursuit]

RAFAT do wear G suits in all positions within the formation.

I believe the Blue Angel approach is due to the control column being spring loaded and stiffer than standard F18s. Bearing in mind that the recent death of one of the team members was put down to GLOC, it would be interesting to hear if the USN has changed its mind in this area.

[kemblejet01]

RAFAT do not wear g-pants in all the slots - at least not when KMB01 was there.

At the time, synchro was mandatory, everyone else had the option.
(ex Harrier pukes had short hoses anyway).

Anyone nabbing a back seat - sit there and take it (including the Scottish Gp Capt!)

KMB01

[Tourist]

Surely max G in the reds, synchro aside, is quite low anyway?
Max 4ish?

[Jumping_Jack]

In the Blue Angel display i saw at Oceana they just pootled about, albeit in very close formation. They didn't seem to pull the G that the Reds appear to do. Rather a tame display I thought. Enjoyed it nontheless. :D

[NigelOnDraft]

Surely max G in the reds, synchro aside, is quite low anyway?
Max 4ish?You don't tend to wear a 'g' suit for the level of 'g' - more the frequency and duration... and for somewhere to store all your junk ;)

Aerobatic GA types tend to pull more 'g', more often, but it is very short duration.

NoD

[Ken Scott]

Surely max G in the reds, synchro aside, is quite low anyway?
Max 4ish?

Was lucky enough to get a back seat ride, without G suit (him up front had one though). The normal display was comparatively gentle but the rolling one (used for displays with a low cloudbase) was hard work, lots of sustained pulling & max about 7G, quite tough I found without the help of inflating pants. But then I'm used to a steady 1G otherwise I spill my cup of tea.

[Tourist]

You surprise me, fair enough I stand corrected.

Seriously though 7? In a hawk? I seem to remember a lower max when I flew them.

[Squeegee Longtail]

Can confirm no back seat inflatable pants and several 6 G pulls on the Red's low level routine. 7 though? Must have been a bad day, or synchro!

[longer ron]

Hawk has always been 8 or 8.5 g limit (never remember which LOL)!
The 2 CAM Hawks are cleared to 8.99 g for high g training /trials !

[Tourist]

Ron

Not always, there was definately a 5.8 or 6.8 or something like that for a while. I remember because the boscombe one with the Typhoon suit gubbins was allowed a lot moreto do trials.

[Pure Pursuit]

All of the pilots wear G suits and it is not optional. Perhaps times have changed since KMB01 was there.

The back seaters do have to go without in most of the airframes however, the none aircrew pax trips are normally put into a jet with working gear in the back. I don't know anyone at Scampton who had a trip without the G suit. That said, the engineers did fly without them but they held aircrew med cats.

Synchro go up to and past 7G. The RAFAT break is above 6 which involves the whole team.

[Tourist]

I stand corrected.
Out of interest, what is the highest in formation?

[Pure Pursuit]

7-7.5 I believe. They rotate the frames around the formation every season to share the stress across the fleet. Healthier jets going to synchro etc. Sounds like a complete balls ache for the engineers but hey, they could be servicing Wokkas in the stan...

[longer ron]

Tourist
Maybe they imposed a temp limit before the rewing/fuselage programme when the airframes were getting a little tired ?
The CAM Hawks I mentioned earlier are the 2 RAF Hawks at Boscombe Dn

rgds LR

[Harley Quinn]

Thanks for that, any idea what the French and Italians do? Do the Germans have a team?

[Clockwork Mouse]

I think in the RAFAT the front seaters always wear G suits, the rear seaters never do and the Synchros pull up to 9G. But what do I know? I'm only a pongo!

[orgASMic]

Harrier pukes had short hoses

Something we had all suspected anyway. :hmm:

[bakerpictures]

It appears RAFAT do all wear G-Pants as do their back-seaters when flying ISPs (In-season Practice) as is proved by this picture gallery:

G-Pants - Images | Richard Baker (http://archive.bakerpictures.com/gallery/G-Pants/G00002Bk521WoDTg)

[Squeegee Longtail]

See a little vid I took a while back (excuse the terrible camerawork).
You can see G-meter showing 6, which was the max throughout the low level display that day. NO G-pants for any backseaters that day.

WqMnA7kSnsI

[Hockham Admiral]

Thanks for that Sqeegee, a great clip:D:D:D

[Clockwork Mouse]

Richard,
I suggest that your excellent pictures show the Reds pilots wearing G-pants, in red suits and in green before PDA; none are back seaters. The back seaters cannot wear G-pants during displays or ISPs for safety reasons involving interference with controls.

[Rigger1]

Max +G for the Hawk T1 is +9 before o/stress checks have to be carried out. Altough we used to (maybe still do) stick little dayglo arrows on +7 and tell you drivers out there not to exceed it!

[bakerpictures]

Thanks Clockwork,

In Cyprus - Akrotiri - Red Arrows | Richard Baker (http://archive.bakerpictures.com/image/I0000LMzg87d.Eh0) we see Sir Jock having climbed out of the back of Red 1's jet and I was going to add that he is wearing the pants - only he's not. But I wore G-pants in my first flight (a singleton) plus during ISPs on several occasions with strict instructions to keep my knees apart. I did as I was told.

Richard.

[Talk Reaction]

Well several flights over several years and never wore g pants, as many have mentioned, due to interference with controls and as I recall from Valley you frequently caught the backseaters g pants fouling the stick on full and free.

Not sure how the picture gallery could have proved anything but was that a picture of the sadly passed Matt Jarvis I saw?

[Bicster]

Squeegee, was it just me or did that seem to be a propper greaser of a landing in the video? He hardly seemed to flare, just shut the throttle and whacked it down. Im no expert and as far as im concerned the Red Arrows are the best in the world, just curious.

[Squeegee Longtail]

Just my bad camerawork I guess. He put it where he wanted it. Nothing wrong.

[Captain Sand Dune]

G-suits are compulsory for RAFAT pilots when in the bar after a display.:E

[tu chan go]

I was on the FCC at the Dubai airshow in the early 90s and the Russians sent a little prop driven aerobat to display (along with lots of big noisy jets!). I asked the pilot what g level he flew to during the display. Quite nonchalantly he said "Oh, plus 12 and minus 12!......but if I don't feel up to it, I don't do the minus 12 bit" and he didn't wear a g-suit!

Bicster.....you're not supposed to "grease" the Hawk onto the runway. A "firm and positive" touchdown is the recommended technique.

[BEagle]

It is indeed possible (or certainly was) for the rear seat occupant's AEA to interfere with the controls if the front seat occupant applies large aileron inputs without warning.

Whilst on a Hawk refresher course, I flew in the back on a weather check with a pilot who decided to practise his aerobatic sequence. He hadn't briefed me about the content of the sequence, nor did he call each manoeuvre. So I was caught by surprise when he suddenly applied full aileron without warning and the bomb flap snagged on one of my kneepads (this was just before the days of external turning trousers), being caught by the velcro flap securing the kneepad pocket (again, later suits had a different kneepad pocket design).... Fortunately I quickly freed it - but it had certainly surprised him!

[H Peacock]

Had the honour and privilege to fly several trips with the Reds, including 30 minutes trying to teach Lingy (Red 7) to stop using the rudder and keep the jet in balanced flight. Anyway, these trips were all flown without wearing any anti-g trousers in the back, and included several applications of a ridiculous amount of g.

If you ever get even half a chance you simply have to go see it for real!

:D