Vulcans - rear crew disabling pilots ejector seats in flight

[Brian 48nav]

My apologies if this has been discussed before; Halfway through reading 'Empire of the Clouds' (See 'good military read' thread) and after the description of the tragic crash at Heathrow, the author refers to an incident in New Zealand(pg 155).
Vulcan XH 498 broke an u/c leg on landing,went round and during the circuit the rear crew replaced the pins in the pilots' ejector seats on the 'we're all in this together' and 'you ain't going anywhere without us' mode of operating.
Is this an apocryphal tale? If not were there any other occasions when this happened, and did some rear crews agree beforehand that this would be their MO?
The idea that the captain would exit the aircraft leaving the rear crew to their fate was an awful way to operate and must have been complete anathema to former WW2 bomber crews, where the convention was that the pilot stayed with his stricken aircraft until, hopefully, the other crew members had escaped.
As a Herc nav I quietly thanked my good fortune that I had not been posted to what appeared to be death traps.

[Jig Peter]

Whether the story is apocryphal or not, I wouldn't know, BUT if the aircraft was going to be landed with one U/C leg unlocked and quite possibly going to fold at an awkward moment, it would have been only sensible to avoid the risk of the pilots' ejection seats "going off" unintentionally during the possible gyrations after touchdown.
During my years of sitting in "Seats bang, aircrew for the use of", there were several reports of "unwanted expulsions" after touchdown in forced landings, and if I'd been faced with putting an aircraft down wheels up, and especially if away from an airfield, I think I'd have preferred the seat(s) to be safe (though there wasn't always someone there to do that for me,and the occasion never did arise).

[moggiee]

Interesting story - I have no idea about its veracity (or otherwise). I am currently reading the "Haynes Manual" book on the Vulcan and the authors (including ex Vulcan aircrew) reckon that 4 rear crews dies because they did not have time to do a manual bale out - that's 12 men dead because they didn't have ejector seats.

On the other hand I do remember some of my QFIs (ex-Vulcan chaps) telling me that they used to put their pins in the seats when doing ultra low level work - on the "we all go in together" principle.

[Old-Duffer]

Where were the seat pins stowed on the 'V's and were they in a place where the rear crew could get at them easily?

In the Vulcan it was a bit of a climb from the rear crew area to the pilots' seats and on the Victor they were about the same level. Can't remember the Valiant 'cause the last time I got in one 'twas April 1964!

There were a number of 'V' losses where only the co-pilot survived and this suggests that captains were reluctant, to the point of death, to leave their crew behind. That said, there were also a number of accidents where only the pilots survived and hence self preservation overcame any altruistic motives. An awful situation in which to place the pilots and one has to wonder from a distance of 60 years why all three 'V' s had no seats for the guys in the back or the crew chief. James Martin designed and tested an ejection system for the rear crew but why it was not adopted I cannot say.

Two points, however:

a. In WWI, pilots weren't given parachutes because it was thought they would not 'stay in the fight' and the brass would sooner have them dead, than have them saved to fight again.

b. Other aircraft did not have enough ejection seats to go around; eg; B(I)8 Canberras and some other marks B15(?), B16(?).

In addition, NF and T7 Meteors and F & FB Vampires didn't have any ejection seats, despite the speeds involved.

Some quite extraordinary decisions but the sobering statistics are that the RAF has lost 9300 aircraft and over 6000 fatal casualties since VE-Day, the largest single loss being the Pisa Hercules. Then there are three Dakotas from the same squadron in a single day, a pair of Shackletons likewise and so it went on.

Old Duffer (in sober mood at the senseless waste)

[MrBernoulli]

On the Victor K2 I certainly recall occasions when the Navigator would begin a non-normal checklist by loudly rattling the pins and their tags, and a wry "Pilot seat pins - insert" but it was only banter. The Nav kept the pins in a drawer or compartment on the forward edge of the Nav/AEO desk, IIRC?

[Yellow Sun]

Vulcan XH 498 broke an u/c leg on landing,went round and during the circuit the rear crew replaced the pins in the pilots' ejector seats on the 'we're all in this together' and 'you ain't going anywhere without us' mode of operating.


Yes, they probably did replace the seat pins but not for the reason you suppose. They would have done it because they followed the recommended procedure in the Aircrew Manual:

Crash Landing The following considerations are recommended if a crash landing becomes necessary:

a. BEFORE LANDING
(1) Reduce weight as much as practicable.
(2) Have the Nav/Radar make the ejection seats safe. The pip pin in the canopy jettison gun must not be removed.

WRT moggiee's comment:

On the other hand I do remember some of my QFIs (ex-Vulcan chaps) telling me that they used to put their pins in the seats when doing ultra low level work - on the "we all go in together" principle.

Never even heard that discussed, let alone anyone actually doing it.

YS

[NigelOnDraft]

Suspect the ACM rationale as simple as 0/90 seats? Or worse?

NoD

[Yellow Sun]

Suspect the ACM rationale as simple as 0/90 seats? Or worse?

NoD

They were 0/90, but the primary reason was that the anticipated escape route would have been through the "flight deck", the canopy was to be jettisoned prior to touchdown. Rapid egress from or over a live seat could have lead to an even more rapid egress! I suppose that a secondary consideration, as Jig Peter mentioned, could have been to remove the risk of inadvertent operation during the "arrival", but I am not sure about that.

YS

[oldbeefer]

Should ask Ric He*d - he knows everything about the Vulcan!

[Fareastdriver]

Old Duffer. There was a thread om V bomber rear crew escape some time ago and by luck I still have my post in my computer. I will post it again to explain.


When the V bombers were first designed rear crew escape by ejector seats was not even considered. The Victor was conceived with a jettisonable cockpit, the Vulcan with a seat for the one pilot, the Sperrin with one seat between the two pilots and the Valiant, the last of the design phases, a seat for each pilot.

The designs for the V bombers were the first time that the British aircraft industry had to design military aircraft for prolonged operation above 30,000 ft and the Comet disasters proved how much they knew about it. When the V force cockpits were stressed to 8.5 lbs/in pressure differential that was almost a step into the unknown. It follows that any alteration like cutting extra exit holes for the rear crew was structurally impossible. The only way you could do it was to have a small hole with enough room for ONE seat to exit. This was done with a Valiant as a one off in the early sixties. This proved it was possible to eject from the cabin of a Valiant though I believe the primary research was to study the effects of rear facing ejection.

To have any chance at all you would have to sequence the ejection. You could not eject simultaneously as the seats would all meet at a point above the cockpit. All those who fly with a rocket seat attached to their backsides would think that is easy. Not with a Mark 3A Ejector seat that was necessary to clear the tail of a V bomber. That had a three cartridge, eight foot telescopic gun that ensured the occupant left the end at 80 ft/sec. With a seat like that you have to be fully prepared to eject. Should you not be fully prepared you would be crippled, if unprepared, fatally crippled.

Three scenarios were considered.

Inclined ejector guns for the outer crew members. This would involve them accelerating from Zero to 80ft/sec eight feet vertically and three feet laterally. The sideways forces would be more than sufficient to break their necks.

Tilted Ejector seats. This would require the seat to flop from the vertical to about 25 degrees to aim at the hole in the roof. Put you hand against a convenient object, tilt you seat to twenty-five degrees laterally and consider whether you are in a suitable body configuration to be punched out through the ceiling at 80 ft/sec. No, I thought not.

Shuffle Ejection. The centre occupant would eject and then one of the others would move his seat to the centre position, eject and so on. What do you do with the first ejectee’s gun which is still going to be in the way? What happens if the primary ejectee is killed or wounded? It’s a combat aircraft, remember.

I never knew of a rear crew member who complained about it in a serious way. The history of multiple abandonment of V aircraft suggest that in the time available in most cases only one or two would have survived, ejection seats or not.

It never worried me. As a co-pilot I was required to eject first so as to tell the Board of Inquiry what went wrong.

[goudie]

The dilemma of saving the rear crew was demonstrated at Scampton in '58/59?, when a 617 Sqdn Vulcan lost it's nosewheels on take-off (over steering whilst being towed). It was decided that the rear crew would bale out over Waddington
Unfortunately the Nav Radar's parachute failed to open. The aircraft made a perfect landing at Scampton, though there wasn't much left of the nose u/c!

[Brian 48nav]

Thanks all for your inputs - the author (James Hamilton-Paterson) wrote,
'As Vulcan XH 498 was landing in NZ in October 1959, wind shear caused it to break its port u/c leg on touchdown. The pilot went round again for a successful crash landing. During the circuit the crew in the rear compartment came forward and inserted the safety pins into the two pilots ejector seats, announcing that either they would all get out together or nobody would. They all survived unscathed.'
The brief biographical notes make no mention of any aviation experience of the author.

I seem to remember that my Flt Cdr at South Cerney '65/6, a Rhodesian named Mike Smith, was allegedly the first Vulcan captain to successfully evacuate the whole crew. IIRC this happened near Valley on return from a Goose trip.

OD - those figures you gave are staggering, I know for instance that out of 262 Valettas supplied to the Air Ministry, 73 were w/o in flying accidents. I guess for the early jets (vampire,venom,meteor, canberra etc) the attrition rate would have been extremely high.
As I've mentioned before on another thread, I saw the flash as the No3 Herc in our formation hit the sea - very sobering.

Back to the unsobering bottle, cheers Brian Wildey

[RAFEngO74to09]

In the 1950s in particular, aircraft accident figures and consequent aircrew losses were truly staggering. For instance, 890 Meteors were lost in RAF service (145 in 1953 alone) resulting in the death of 450 aircrew. Only the Meteor F8 was fitted with an ejection seat.

[Pontius Navigator]

I concur with Yellow Sun.

When a Mk2 folded up on the ground the canopy was jettisoned and the nav plotter exited through the bang seats trampling the copilots hand as he switched off the fuel pumps. In that instance the seats were live.

I can't recall where the seat pins were stowed although I routinely fitted the drogue chute pins. I recall one instance whe I fumbled a pin and it ended up in the guest plotter's nav bad. He refused to look for it and I only found it a week later after an illicit search.

The canopy pins however were a 2-way type. Pre-flight one pin was removed from the jettison gun and its mate, a pip-pin, was fitted in a guilotine type lever. The gun would fire and a lever would act against the pin pin.

On one flight I lived the canopy, the crew-chief then came up unnoticed and unthinkingly reversed the pins thus safing the canopy before flight.

[henry crun]

RAFEngO74to09: I think ejector seats were also fitted to the 9 & 10.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

After a total hyd failure in a Canberra B15 and ejection was not considered necessary (by the crew - but it was suggested by the rapidly assembling team of experts in the Tower) both navigators and the pilot made the seats safe prior to the wheels up landing (without foam). As the seats had very limited low level, low speed capability (age robs me of the details) the pins went in on long finals. This meant that the escape would not be marred by an inadvertant seat firing.
As Jig Peter said...

if I'd been faced with putting an aircraft down wheels up, and especially if away from an airfield, I think I'd have preferred the seat(s) to be safe

[LowObservable]

I have theorized - no more than that, based on my reading of WW2 bomber ops - that somebody looked at combat and non-combat losses and divided them into three categories.

1. Catastrophic where nobody had any chance of escape, such as a major gun or missile hit or controlled flight into terrain.

2. Relatively benign (such as one gear stuck down, others stuck up) with timing, height and speed such that all on board could escape by parachute.

3. Aircraft damaged to the point where the pilot/s could hold it in an acceptable parachute-escape flightpath, but not themselves escape by parachute - at least anecdotally, a not uncommon WW2 scenario.

In that case, seats for the pilots and bale-out for the crew could emerge from OA as the way to go.

Slightly related: I was at the Smithsonian at Dulles a few weeks ago looking at the He219 and wondering whether the vital nature of its mission, and the value of skilled crews, was one reason it had ejection seats... However, the author of the site below says that the reason was that any attempt to leave the Uhu in flight would result in a close encounter with the propellers.

Heinkel_He_219 (http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/heinkel_he_219.htm)

[Fareastdriver]

Ther was the tragic case at Wattisham where a Lightning couldn't get its wheels down. IAW SOPs the pilot attempted to eject but the canopy wouldn't shift so the seat would not go off.

He carried out a perfect wheels up, in a Lightning?, on a series of fields. As the aircaft reached the end of the landing run it baulked gainst an earth embankment. This jarred the canopy loose and the pilot was ejected with fatal results.

Sometimes you just can't win.

[A2QFI]

I am afraid that the fatalities of rear crew members in the Vulcan was a great many more than 12 and to that total, whatever it is, one can add fatalities from the Valiant and Victor as well

[Samuel]

'As Vulcan XH 498 was landing in NZ in October 1959, wind shear caused it to break its port u/c leg on touchdown. The pilot went round again for a successful crash landing. During the circuit the crew in the rear compartment came forward and inserted the safety pins into the two pilots ejector seats, announcing that either they would all get out together or nobody would. They all survived unscathed.'
The brief biographical notes make no mention of any aviation experience of the author.



Uninformed and factually incorrect.

The pilot, one Sqn Ldr Tony Smailes, performed a touch and go prior to the second approach, which was when the incident occurred and which had nothing to do with 'wind shear' as I recall, the aircraft just sank a bit before the piano keys and hit a slight embankment which broke the Port leg. He did not" go round again" and the successful landing was made not at Wellington, but at RNZAF Station Ohakea 90 miles north. This author doesn't know if or when the pins were inserted and is merely repeating rumour and speculation, but the Canopy was jettisoned before landing so the pins may well have been inserted at some stage. I very much doubt any discussion about "all for one, one for all" took place.

[moggiee]

I am afraid that the fatalities of rear crew members in the Vulcan was a great many more than 12
Indeed it was more than 12 - I was just quoting the figures given by the author (an ex Vulcan pilot) for the number of rear crew killed WHEN THE PILOTS WERE ABLE TO EJECT SUCCESSFULLY.

Off the top of my head he quotes:

15 Vulcan crashes of which
5 were successful "all crew" escapes
6 were "no survivors"
4 were "pilots survived, rear crew died".

I guess there may well have been a number of crew chiefs in that number, too.

Valiant and Victor losses weren't given - it is a Vulcan book, after all.

[Old-Duffer]

FarEastDriver,

5 Jan 66, Lightning XR721 of 56 Sqn. The pilot, who originated from South Africa, did everything right in the circumstances and for the seat to fire was just bad luck.

I also seem to recall a Harrier at Yeoviton (?) where the display pilot forgot to put the pins in and the seat fired as he was leaving the aircraft. Think this was mid-'80s but not sure.

Also in the early days of the Harrier (3 Aug 71), a USAF exchange pilot did not remove all the pins and the seat did not work as advertised.

O-D

[Pontius Navigator]

Thank you Samuel,

but the Canopy was jettisoned before landing so the pins may well have been inserted at some stage.

You reminded me. There was lanyard between the seat drougue gun and the back of the canopy. It was designed, L believe, to stop the gun firing unless the canopy had been jettisoned. It was in addition to the seat pins.

If the canopy was to be ejected then the seat pins would be inserted first.

I very much doubt any discussion about "all for one, one for all" took place.

This was very much crew room banter and never serious. We would say that we would disconnect that snatch cable. I don't think it was EVER taken or meant to be serious.

[Q-RTF-X]

I was on 617 (ground crew) at the time the aircraft was returned to the squadron from NZ after a team from AVRO then another team from 617 had it back into service. Word at the time suggested the experience of the Vulcan at Wellington was later repeated that same day when an RNZAF Sunderland in the throes of a low fly past encountered an unexpected downdraft and scraped its keel along the runway; the tale continues that later, after landing, the damage caused it to take on water and sink.

It seems many other aircraft experienced (to a greater or lesser degree) a similar phenomena over the years and a friend of mine who runs a small corporate handling agency there confirms that to this day the unwary are prone to the occasional tightening of the sphincter when coming in to land.

As for the Vulcan seat pin stowage, I have a vague recollection that once removed they were normally kept in one of the rear crew desks, one of the Nav positions I think..

[Q-RTF-X]

You reminded me. There was lanyard between the seat drougue gun and the back of the canopy. It was designed, L believe, to stop the gun firing unless the canopy had been jettisoned. It was in addition to the seat pins.


PN - To the best of my knowledge there was no 'restrictor' on the Vulcan ejection system, (though it is now 50 years since I worked on a Vulcan and am open to be corrected), the only such device I remember was on the Lightning where there was a scissor like mechanism that prevented the primary firing unit from operating unless the canopy had jettisoned and a lanyard snatched away the scissor device allowing the main gun to operate. In any event, such a device would not have been attached to the drogue gun which under the normal sequence of events did not function until the seat had already fired and started to travel upwards along the guide rail.

[Fareastdriver]

To the best of my knowledge there was no 'restrictor' on the Vulcan ejection system

You can see why we didn't trust navigators with ejection seats.

[Samuel]

That Sunderland didn't sink; it landed back at base at Hobsonville [Auckland] and was immediately winched ashore. The Sunderland that sank was one that hit a submerged object while landing in the Chathams [ 800 Kms south east of the South Island of New Zealand]. Some bits are still there!

[BeefyBoy]

The Harrier incident at Yeovilton was in 1975. I was sitting on the wing of one of our 'Poachers' aircraft which was across the pan from it when it went off. It happened so quickly, not a nice thing to see.

[50+Ray]

I do not wish to get controversial, and it was a long time ago, but my memories of the Vulcan are as follows:-
The canopy had to go before a seat could operate.
There was a handle outboard of each pilot which could be used to jettison the canopy - for instance on the ground if the undercarriage had folded and the only way out was through the top.
The primary ejection handle was on the front of the seat pan - in my case there was in fact no room to operate the face blind handle between my helmet and the roof!
The canopy pin was large and agricultural. Nav Radar would make the canopy safe, then make the seats live, then make the canopy live. Reverse process after landing.
The pin from the sear on top of the gun would prevent the canopy wire withdrwaing the sear. IIRC there was a built in delay (half sec?) to make sure the canopy was clear before the seat gun fired.
Seat pins were stowed in a visible rack outboard of each pilot.
My rear crew never asked me for any extra abandonment training!

[Q-RTF-X]

That Sunderland didn't sink; it landed back at base at Hobsonville [Auckland] and was immediately winched ashore. The Sunderland that sank was one that hit a submerged object while landing in the Chathams [ 800 Kms south east of the South Island of New Zealand]. Some bits are still there!

Nice to get the facts ! Thank you.

[Barksdale Boy]

As a nav radar, I remember it as 50 + Ray describes. Certainly no pin of any kind was ever stowed in my desk.

[Q-RTF-X]

Both 50+ and Barksdale are most likely correct, in fact I now seem to have a dim recollection of the pin stowage as mentioned. As I said, it's 50 years ago now.

[forget]

50+ Ray Seat pins were stowed in a visible rack outboard of each pilot.

Spot on. Placard says 'Safety Pin Stowage'. Includes Canopy Pin to left. Similar rack for Co-Pilot. All pins (I think) had a red disc attached which slid into rack.

For reference, brown object is captain's inboard arm rest. Semi circle at top is side window.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/pins.jpg

[EyesFront]

The Harrier incident at Yeovilton was in 1975. I was sitting on the wing of one of our 'Poachers' aircraft which was across the pan from it when it went off. It happened so quickly, not a nice thing to see.


I also saw it (from the crowd). The pilot completed his display, taxied in and shutdown normally, then put the canopy back and unstrapped. The seat went off as he stood up on the seat , holding the windscreen frame. I always wondered whether he was distracted by the lack of a proper ladder.

I was always fascinated by the various ingenious methods that pilots had to employ to gain access to their cockpits at Yeovilton - notably F104 pilots climbing up the wing from the tip then straddling the fuselage to get to the cockpit!

[Pontius Navigator]

PN - To the best of my knowledge there was no 'restrictor' on the Vulcan ejection system

This is what I meant.

The pin from the sear on top of the gun would prevent the canopy wire withdrwaing the sear.

Equally the canopy wire had to be connected to withdraw the sear.

[Samuel]

Driving past the 208 Venom hangar at Eastleigh and responded to a loud bang and found an armourer had accidentally triggered the drogue, and the bolt carrying the chute cords had gone right through his arm. Quite a mess but amazingly, little damage. It wasn't far to fall from a Venom!

Javelin on finals at Tengah 1966, and throttle locks engaged [or so the story went]. Two successive bangs as crew departed, and loud cheers from the armourers among the lineys. They just love seeing the seats work!

The aircraft landed in one piece!

[FJJP]

The canopy had to go before either ejection seat could fire. According to the Aircrew Manual, the one second delay applied to the seat trigger even if the canopy had already been jettisoned.

If there ever were an occasion where the rear crew had to get out through the top on the ground, the Nav Rad had a number of pins which he could use to secure the ejection seat gun [a number of straps were anchored in the area, whose pins were the right size - I remember it was always discussed during escape trainer drills]...

[sled dog]

Samuel, the Javelin incident at Tengah in 1966 was believed to have occured when the Control Locks engaged, which seems a bit unlikely to me, an ex 64 Sqdn Javelin man.

[Samuel]

Samuel, the Javelin incident at Tengah in 1966 was believed to have occured when the Control Locks engaged, which seems a bit unlikely to me, an ex 64 Sqdn Javelin man.

I heard it was throttle locks but whatever the reason he had turned to line up with the runway and couldn't increase power and so decided to abandon the aircraft. It's actually quite surreal watching something you did on a regular basis, and then all of sudden the canopy goes followed by two seats.

[Old Hairy]

On 57 Sqn. 1960 Victor 1.1A it was part of the AEO's pre taxy checks to remove and stow the pilots ejector seat pins.A certain AEO who shall remain nameless, modified the checklist to read "Seat Pins removed and stowed.Padlocks in,keys kept at the back" Caused many a visiting pilot being shown the mysteries of flight refuelling,to go crinkle chip!!! I think he was joking,but you never know!!!

[forget]

Q-RTF-X I have a vague recollection that (removed pins) were normally kept in one of the rear crew desks, one of the Nav positions I think..

FJJP If there ever were an occasion where the rear crew had to get out through the top on the ground, the Nav Rad had a number of pins which he could use to secure the ejection seats.

That explains it - I think. The 'main' pins were stowed upstairs - but I do have a foggy memory of a full set floating around downstairs. Nav Rad position would make sense.

[Pontius Navigator]

Forget, may be. Remember though that there were 3 separate wings and the OCU so it is quite possible that spare pins was a local arrangement for one wing and not common across the fleet.

IIRC there were other odd little variances adopted by one wing and not the others.

[Tankertrashnav]

I only ever flew on Victor tankers, so most of my flying was at high level when the chances of a successful rear-crew abandonment were at least reasonable. I dont think any of us really gave much for our chances of getting out and surviving at low level (say at circuit height) but this was just one of those things and I dont recall worrying about it much.

Having recently sat in the nav rad's seat in the Vulcan at Newark Air Museum I must confess the idea of stooging around at low level without a bang seat does not appeal, plus I found it very claustrophobic after the more "open plan" Victor.

Btw I concur with the stowage of pins - definitely on a bracket on the side of the seat, not in a drawer, and it was the nav rads job to arm/disarm the seats if operating away from base without a crew chief.

[FJJP]

If you look at the top of an ejection seat, there are a lot of straps, various, which do different jobs during the sequence. The Type 3 seat also had a wedge-pad which kept the straps and other stuff clear of the face-screen handle.

This pad was conveniently secured by a pin either side of the top of the seat. The pin diameter was of suitable size to fit into the ejection gun sear and could be used to prevent inadvertant ejection. This was the pin I referred to in my post.

[Fareastdriver]

When the Valiant first flew they worked out that the ejection seat in it was not powerful enough to get the pilot over the tail. They designed a bigger seat and they were in the hanger awaiting fitment when they had their first ejection; with fatal results when the a pilot hit the tailplane.
The canopy/seat syncrynistion was a tape between the canopy and the seat firing blind. Until canopy the departed one could not pull the handle. In the sixties they added a seat pan handle that was called the alternative firing handle. With this one you could fire the seat with the canopy on. Should you do so the Pilot's Notes advised you that the results would be fatal.
There was a pin for this between your legs and the sensible people I flew with were quite happy fo it to remain there. Some times you would have a keen captain: Two inches between his Flt Lt rings, rugby ball and bible in his nav bag who would insist on them being removed. I would come back after one of those trips with no fingertips on my gloves. Luckily very shortly after that they scrapped them and I transferred to and then had a glorious life flying helicopters all over the World.

[spectre150]

When a Mk2 folded up on the ground the canopy was jettisoned and the nav plotter exited through the bang seats trampling the copilots hand as he switched off the fuel pumps. In that instance the seats were live.


This sounds familiar - unless there was more than one such instance. My father was a Vulcan nav (not sure is he was a plotter or radar) and he has photos of a B2 with the nose u/c collapsed and canopy missing. He was in the back and was out over the (presumably still live) seats before you could say 'emergency egress'. He was stationed at Coningsby and Finningley in the 60s but I cant recall where the incident took place.

Thread drift, but I too saw the Harrier incident at Yeovilton in '75 - the aircraft shut down in front of me and unfortunately I saw the consequences of the pilot climbing out with out replacing his pins. I have been in the back of 2 Canberras where the pilots have jettisoned the canopies (luckily both times on the ground) and been in the crewroom when a trademan working on an aircraft in the hangar next door was lucky to escape a seat firing (and the subsequent return to earth of the seat via the hangar room). I am nervous of loud bangs.....

[pontifex]

I spent many years and over 4000 hrs flying V type aircraft and I cannot recall there ever having been any discussion or conversation with my rear crews concerning this issue. I gained the impression that the problem was, in the most part, hyped up by others more distant from the action. The only time it was ever referred to was on the occasion after a catastrophic engine failure on rotate in a recce Valiant which seriously affected the adjacent engine. For a significant period it was touch and go below 1000 ft, as we were jettisoning the underwing fuel, before it was possible to gain some height. At some time during this very uncertain period, my splendid AEO (a WP) said "Captain may I remind you that I removed your seat pins". Does this put things in perspective?

[francophile69]

This thread brings back horrible memories of the Vulcan that crashed in Malta.

I was at Tal Handaq R.N. school, just over from Luqa, and we saw it after it exploded and the wreckage was descending. My Father was flying that day, 203 squadron, and I thought it was him. I remember being taken to the Headmasters office in tears. Eventually we were informed it was not a Nimrod.

One person was killed on the ground, from a wing I believe. An incredible stroke of luck, considering how populated Malta is, saw the main fuselage land in just about the only clear ground around.

The Captain and co-pilot ejected safely. The rear crew, including a supernumerary were tragically killed. The Captain I believe, had the rather dubious record of surviving two V-bomber ejections.

[Neptunus Rex]

francophile soixante-neuf

Not quite. The Captain in question had indeed had a previous incident in a Vulcan. On that occasion, in 1971, he experienced a double engine fire, with a subsequent wing fuel fire, got all his rear crew out safely, before ordering his co-pilot to eject, steering the Vulcan out to sea, then ejecting himself.

For that day's work, he was awarded the Air Force Cross; all the other crew were awarded the Queen's Commendation for Valuable Services in the Air. It is a CRM story long before CRM became fashionable.

A good report is here:

Vulcan down. (http://www.thefewgoodmen.com/thefgmforum/showthread.php?426-Vulcan-down.http://www.thefewgoodmen.com/thefgmforum/showthread.php?426-Vulcan-down).

[Off-Black]

I was on 617 (ground crew) at the time the aircraft was returned to the squadron from NZ after a team from AVRO then another team from 617 had it back into service. Word at the time suggested the experience of the Vulcan at Wellington was later repeated that same day when an RNZAF Sunderland in the throes of a low fly past encountered an unexpected downdraft and scraped its keel along the runway; the tale continues that later, after landing, the damage caused it to take on water and sink.

There is an account of the Sunderland incident and aftermath by the co-pilot here:

Wings Over New Zealand - Blast from the Past (http://rnzaf.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=airshow&action=display&thread=4744)

Further down the thread there is a picture of the touch-and-go as well :)

[francophile69]

Apologies.

In hindsight I should have worded my final sentence somewhat differently.

[falcon12]

Perhaps the incident you refer to was at Finningly in 1964 I think when XH556 folded up on start up. Ground crew from underneath existed swiftly towards the hangar whilst the liney's ran in the opposite direction!

Indeed someone from the back row was seen exiting from the canopy area having, allegedly leaving his boot imprint on the co-pilots bone dome.

Fold up caused by short circuit in a terminal block in the fwd landing gearbay (ah! the Avro wiring system) casing the gear to retract on receipt of hydraulic pressure.

Cockpit fuselage was salvaged and last seen at a recent Farnborough airshow.

[Pontius Navigator]

The 1964 incident with 556 would certainly suggest John Ledward was one of the rear crew as he left Coningsby about Q3 1964. Was there a later incident too?

The 556 incident was on 18 Apr 66 and I believe that was the one when Kim Bunting trod on the copilots hand. It was on the flight line and rumour had it that he was in the crewroom having a coffee by the time the crash crew arrived.

There was an earlier incident when 561 landed wheels up on 15 Jan 65; now that could have been one incident when JL got out the top.

[Old-Duffer]

The 'other' Vulcan incident referred to might be 6 Apr 67 at Scampton. The crew, with an ATC cadet on board, was taking off and as the jet started to roll, there was a loud bang. The aircraft was stopped, engines were shutdown and all six vacated the aircraft which was completely gutted.

This accident was caused by No: 3 engine flame tube failed, turbine blades in No: 1 ruptured the fuel tanks and the rest was inevitable. The cab was XL385 of 27 Sqn.

Old Duffer

[forget]

Picture of 385.... and no smart remarks about speed tape. :hmm:

Vulcans in Camera - Avro Vulcan B2 XL385 at Scampton. (http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/crown_copyright/385_scampton.htm)

[Pontius Navigator]

O-D, are you sure about No 3 Engine? My source agrees with your statement about No 1 engine.

[Old-Duffer]

PN,

My information is second hand in that it was taken from the summary Accident Card. It does seem strange that simultaneous faults happened with No: 1 & 3 engines and so I wouldn't die in a ditch about which engine shed its blades. Result the same.

Drifting a long way off scope; there is a photo of a Beverley which has had its undercarriage blown off by a mine and the crew are gathered round with a balloon caption from one of the crew saying; "Will it take long to fix, Eng?"

Old Duffer

[falcon12]

PN - Your memory for dates better than mine.

Re 561 landing without the gear, I was just leaving the gin palace late at night when it happened. Saw the approach, heard the noise, then the silence. Next noise was the crash crew going to the scene.

Crew Chief 'Jacko' none too happy about his yet again broken aircraft, whick went back into the hangar for a long time for the flattened underside to be rebuilt by the on site Avro team.

[RedhillPhil]

My apologies if this has been discussed before; Halfway through reading 'Empire of the Clouds' (See 'good military read' thread) and after the description of the tragic crash at Heathrow, the author refers to an incident in New Zealand(pg 155).
Vulcan XH 498 broke an u/c leg on landing,went round and during the circuit the rear crew replaced the pins in the pilots' ejector seats on the 'we're all in this together' and 'you ain't going anywhere without us' mode of operating.
Is this an apocryphal tale? If not were there any other occasions when this happened, and did some rear crews agree beforehand that this would be their MO?
The idea that the captain would exit the aircraft leaving the rear crew to their fate was an awful way to operate and must have been complete anathema to former WW2 bomber crews, where the convention was that the pilot stayed with his stricken aircraft until, hopefully, the other crew members had escaped.
As a Herc nav I quietly thanked my good fortune that I had not been posted to what appeared to be death traps.

There is film of this on the tube of you.

[ArthurR]

francophile69 (http://www.pprune.org/members/187892-francophile69) if I remember rightly, I was ground crew on 617, we had not long arrived back from Malta on excercise when that incident happened, the wing cartwheeled down a street, killing 1 person on the ground, the entry door had been opened, but they had flown with the ladder still fitted, and all the luggage around it, both jump seats where full, 2 crew chiefs, one on his last trip (no pun) and one on his first, luggage had shifted making it impossible for the rear crew to exit. Things where tightened up after that incident.

[spectre150]

Just to set the record straight - JL tells me that the 556 incident was at Finningley in Apr 66 and he remembers vividly how quickly he egressed between the pilots' seats. The wheels -up landing mentioned elsewhere was presumably a different incident.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ask JL if he remembers Kim Bunting and also if he did indeed make the coffee bar before the crash crew made the aircraft.

[spectre150]

PN - I will (he remembers you!).

[baffman]

Apologies if already done, but I couldnt find the link in this thread.

There is quite a full discussion of the V-bomber ejector seat issue here: BBC - h2g2 - The V-Bomber Ejector Seat Story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A49097307)

I take no responsibility for the content!

[Tankertrashnav]

Interesting article Baffman. It's obviously meant for the general reader, not the specialist, so I make no comment on the technical content, but one incontrovertible fact that emerges is that politicians were a similar bunch of lying, prevaricating b****s 50 years ago to the lot we have today.

[Brian 48nav]

Reading the article reminded me of the sterling work done by him. In fact I sat next to his son Barry at Raynes Park GS (sadly now yobbified!), who I believe served as a blunty in the RAF.

As TTN says,same bunch of lying cheating ****s in Westminster - I used to think defence of the land was safe with the Tories.

[Pontius Navigator]

Brian, while the preception within Services was generally that Tories were good on Defence I am drawn to the conclusion that many of the better decisions were made by Labour (not NuLabour).

[WarmandDry]

My rear crew said that if we ever went to war they would never put the pins in the pilots seats. They would, however, attach certain parts of our anatomy to the airframe!"

[Lancman]

All these reasons why the rear crew couldn't have bang seats, why wasn't the aircraft designed with their desks running fore and aft instead of athwart-ships?

[BEagle]

Because the size of bomb bay needed to accommodate the Blue Danube bomb would have precluded this. Also, the need to pressurise the crew compartment meant that the smallest possible space was essential - don't forget that the aircraft was first designed around 60 years ago!

Rear crew ejector seats were entirely possible; however, as the Vulcan was due to be withdrawn from service with the advent of TSR2...F-111...AFVG etc. etc.

To reduce wear and tear on hydraulic components, in the Vulcan the landing gear was left down for visual circuit flying. The chances of the average rear crew member being able to escape with the nose leg extended were close to zero, so extended circuit work was highly unpopular with many rear crew....

[Tankertrashnav]

so extended circuit work was highly unpopular with many rear crew....



It was pretty unpopular with Victor rear crews as well, but for the simpler reason it was a tedious pain in the backside for them. Pontifex will concur, as a QFI he would have been on the receiving end of much moaning from the back on these occasions, as they awaited the longed for "land and stream" call!

[Pontius Navigator]

The chances of the average rear crew member being able to escape with the nose leg extended were close to zero, so extended circuit work was highly unpopular with many rear crew....

It wasn't just the escape system that made it unpopular but the attitudes too.

In light landing configuration with the gear down and airbrakes extended the aircraft had a pronounced nose up attitude. As the rear crew faced rear it followed that their seat positions were less comfortable.

The other attitude was once of the pilots. At then end of one long night sortie when my captain the QFI/IRE was guiding a new copilot we did a number of instrument circuits - each took 10 minutes with the guest AEO reading the check list. Once the requisite stats had been achieved the AEO suggested 'final landing' whereupon the captain said 'no, into visuals.'

Visuals were unpopular also as there was nothing for the rear crew to do at all.

Returning to ops the AEO asked 'why did you do visuals, you didn't need to.'

'Because I wanted to.'

whop

'What did you do that for?' said the captain holding a bloody nose.

'Because I wanted to.'

[HTB]

My memory is a bit vague on this, tempus fugit, but I do recall that we handed the top pins to the pilots (and at some stage found a suitable place to stow the hard bit of their headwear - the Mk 1 bonedome - while they continued with g-type cloth inner helmet straight out of WWII). The canopy firing mechanism, and pin stowage was, I think, housed behind a perspex cover on the bulkhead above and behind the bang seats.

While we're reminiscing about about Vulcan evacuations - both ground and air - the Spilsby crash was a classic example of thwarted expectations. That is to say, the emergency door opening handle did not perform as the one in the crew escape trainer did; mainly because it had seldom, if ever been used for that function and was as stiff to operate as it should have been. The escape trainer's handle was so slack you hardly had to rock it outboard through the gate. The result was that the Rad held up proceedings long enough for the AEO to be standing on his head (I think there was also a restriction caused by the Rad's umbilical snagging and exacerbating the impatience in the queue behind him).

They eventually got out, but the Rad was never quite the same again. Also, the co-pilot didn't fare too well, as he was biffed on the bonce by the drogue gun slug - saw him in Nocton shortly after while I was in for something trivial. I think it curtailed his flying career too.

The captain had been my first on Vulcans and was praised roundly for avoiding the primary school at Spilsby, which he said was miraculous as the cause of the crash was a bomb bay fire which burned through the control rods (can you believe that, electric powered flying control units actuated by multi-section rods). So big daft B*b was merrily poling around to no effect before he left the sinking ship.

The ground evac that I have in mind took place at Shiraz and left the nose section rather crumpled with the front end pushed upwards and the crew compartment filled with dust and rubble entering via the vis bomb aimer's position. It took a feat of might and brute strength for the AEO to lift the desk that was trapping the rear crew in their seats before they could beat a hasty retreat through the cabrio top. Details a bit vague because I never did listen closeley to the AEO (with whom I crewed for 6 consecutive years), mainly because he mumbled.

The pins in thing was crewroom yak, I don't think anyone seriously contemplated such a ploy. As rear crew you paid your money and tokk your chance; leave it to fate (and training, skill and...)

Mister B

[Fareastdriver]

so extended circuit work was highly unpopular with many rear crew....
It was not popular with co-pilots either, especially yours truly. On the Valiant checklist you were required to jettison the remainder of the underwing tank's fuel at REP 3 (radar entry point, 30,000 ft for your airfield). I used to hoard as much fuel as I could in the bomb bay and transfer tank and at the last moment pump the contents into the port underwing. Whoopee! there would be a massive contrail over the east coast and surprise, surprise, we would be down to 10,000 (minimums) lbs on the approach.

Bugger the Ozone layer.

[Pontius Navigator]

My memory is a bit vague on this, tempus fugit, but I do recall that we handed the top pins to the pilots (and at some stage found a suitable place to stow the hard bit of their headwear - the Mk 1 bonedome - while they continued with g-type cloth inner helmet straight out of WWII). The canopy firing mechanism, and pin stowage was, I think, housed behind a perspex cover on the bulkhead above and behind the bang seats.

Quite right. They used to fasten the bone dome to the yellow grab handle behind the respective seats. Then some bright copilot (amazing) said if you put MY bone dome behind the Captain's seat and HIS on my seat then we can reach our own without the Nav Rad having to pass them forward.

And on Shiraz - Steff E. This was yet another IX Sqn wreck.

At one point, without checking my book, I think IX had 5 consecutive crashes.

PS, Checking my book I find Scampton managed to reduce the orbat at some point.

[BEagle]

...the cause of the crash was a bomb bay fire...

Wasn't that actually a cocked-up RAT/AAPP drill? Drop the RAT, volts and frequencies out of limits, but hey, connect it to the synch busbar anyway. Then impossible to disconnect from the aircraft AC system, cue fire, brimstone and shortly afterwards, one less Vulcan...:uhoh:

After which came the RAT field switch mod, which would kill the RAT in such circumstances if it over-volted.

[BEagle]

...the cause of the crash was a bomb bay fire...

Wasn't that actually a cocked-up RAT/AAPP drill? Drop the RAT, volts and frequencies out of limits, but hey, connect it to the synch busbar anyway. Then impossible to disconnect from the aircraft AC system, cue fire, brimstone and shortly afterwards, one less Vulcan...:uhoh:

After which came the RAT field isolation switch mod, which would kill the RAT in such circumstances if it over-volted.

[Pontius Navigator]

Wasn't that actually a cocked-up RAT/AAPP drill? Drop the RAT, volts and frequencies out of limits, but hey, connect it to the synch busbar anyway. Then impossible to disconnect from the aircraft AC system, cue fire, brimstone and shortly afterwards, one less Vulcan...:uhoh:.

XM600 - 17 Jan 77 - fire in bomb bay area spread to port wing.

[BEagle]

And your official source of information?

Remember where the RAT was actually stowed - the overvolting caused a wiring fire which then spread to the left wing. Or so our OCU AEO instructor told us in 1977 during an electrical system lecture. Hence the mod. to introduce the RAT field isolation switch.

[Pontius Navigator]

BEagle you are splitting hairs. The RAT was outside the port wing at the time. The electrical controls and circuitry are inboard. While the RAT caused the fire it does not follow that the fire started at the RAT but by the RAT.

We once had a similar RAT problem. It fell out at 350k/500ft over the Libyan desert. Things went suddenly dark and quiet as loads were shed.

We recovered to Akrotiri and changed the fuses in, IIRC, the nose wheel bay.

[HTB]

Spot on Pontious - the ultimate causal factor in a train of events was the fire in the bomb bay. And also spot on with the AEO, who you know is built like a brick outhouse - I used to play squash with him and on numerous occasions found myself splatterd against a wall or holding various body parts following ball (squash variety that is) or racquet strike.

As an amusing little aside, you may also recall he was an avid stamp collector, of both the valuable uncommon sort and the unfranked sort that you could recover from envelopes. I inevitably shared a room with him on a MRR jaunt to Akrotiri - standard 3 single beds (can't remenber the block number) - as the Plotter was a sqn ldr and pilot usually one up from that (no idea what the co did, probably found other kids to play with). His first ploy was to soak a sackful of envelopes in the wash basin (thereby removing the ready use urinal) to float off the stamps; the next phase was placing the recovered stamps to dry on the unused middle bed; phase 3 was HTB coming in later from the mess, happy and replete, turning the fans on to full as it was a steamy hot night...and a room full of fluttering paper. He was not pleased.

[macwood]

The first trip I did as a very junior crew chief,was "arranged" because all the other crew chiefs had boycotted this particular captain because he had charged his crew chief for accidentally reversing the pins .. Would this be the same instance?
Which reminds me -on the return trip pilot does a fancy pull up before turning for home. Me- standing on the ladder between seats happen to notice that number 3 engine oil pressure is low. Thinking that this must be a test of some sort ... Mentioned this on i/c and all hell broke out!
AEO says -bearing temps off the clock. Shut down engine and return to Goose -engine change for another 2 weeks at Goose ! Not a word from the crew except AEO who reckoned another minute and the engine would have blown. I think this incident has been airbrushed from history....

[Pontius Navigator]

Macwood, not sure what you are referring to but one incident was as follows.

At Akrotiri, as nav rad, I usually did the seat and canopy pins so that I would be well practised in the event of a ditching. Now the canopy had a two pin system (for the uninitiated) and when safe there was a pin in the sear ejector ram. To arm the sear was removed and the other pin on the ring inserted so the a blade could press against it during the canopy jettison. I don't recall the technical details.

Any way on this sortie I had armed the canopy. Then, unnoticed the crew chief entered the cabin, opened the cover, removed on pin and inserted the other, in the process safing the jettison system.

If was one of those things done by touch as it was difficult to see.

The chief was certainly not disciplined and it was decided that nav roads should not do the pins.

[50+Ray]

A couple of points which may have been clarified by others, but I have just come back to this thread. The seat sear was pulled out by a lanyard attached to the departing canopy. If that did not go nothing would.
The Spilsby RAT drill event caused controversy at the time, but the Board had to calm down when all the evidence had been excavated from the hole. As I recall, and I was on the squadron at the time, the aircraft was doomed from the moment the RAT handle was pulled. Certainly it over-volted and there was in those days no means of isolating it. There was evidence of previous pitting on the fuel pipe which was at the seat of the fire, and frankly the AEO could not take any blame for the accident.

[Wander00]

'66 time we had a very experienced sqn ldr QFI, E...F... on the new 360 Sqn, who had ISTR an AFC, and had been posted very quickly after a student landed him and a Vulcan without the benefit of the undercarriage between them and the runway. I think all walked away afterwards. Anyone have any knowledge. BTW, he was in my eyes as a young first tourist a brilliant QFI and he taught me a huge amount.

[Exnomad]

The meteor T7 losses in 1953 were the prime reson I did not stay in the RAF after national service.
Newly qualified navigators most probable postings. Shacks, 20 hour patrols. No thanks, Meteor NF11, safety record

[Lyneham Lad]

Apropros Vulcan abandonments, don't think the Cottesmore kite's practice asymmetric approach that went somewhat awry at Scampton has been mentioned. It came to rest against the tower sans canopy and IIRC the nose leg was still in place. Not sure if the crew all scrambled out of the top or the rear crew via the door.

[Pontius Navigator]

. The seat sear was pulled out by a lanyard attached to the departing canopy. If that did not go nothing would That reminds me of the rear crew joke and the threat to disconnect the lanyard.

For a ditching that lanyard would be disconnected before canopy jettison but seat pins inserted as well. IIRC.

[Tinribs]

It's a long time ago etc
I recall an event on 55 at Marham when a nav sitting in the co seat activated the canopy jettison instead of the seat raise lower, because the aircraft was pressurized the canopy hatch didn't go

[Exnomad]

Rear crew exit on Vulcans was supposed to be via a slot in the floor, just behind the pilots.
Probably practical at 250k or less, but doubtful at full speed, as in trying to leave unfriendly airspace.

[G-CPTN]

Rear crew exit on Vulcans was supposed to be via a slot in the floor, just behind the pilots.
This was also the entrance.

There is a 'door' hinged along the front that when lowered gave a 'chute' for the exiting crew.

http://studysupport.info/imagemap4.jpg

[OldAgeandTreachery]

With reference to the Malta crash: I was at the crash site the next morning and noticed that the rear crew seat "Booster Cushion" safety pins were still fitted to the seats. They had the "Remove before flight" warning on them.
Any ex V flyers able to shed some light on that?
A very lucky escape for the village of Zabbar because the main part of the aircraft fell on a piece of waste ground, but the burning wing landed in a street, killing a car driver.
As I remember weren't the ejection seats set off by the explosion of the wing?

[Pontius Navigator]

OAT, you know, I have absolutely no recollection of safety pins. I guess there must have been pins but . . .

I must viusiut Newark for a refresher.

I know, when at low level I would leave my seat at low level wearing my parachute and dinghy.

How did you know about the pins? Did you see the seats? A couple of friends died on that flight.

[OldAgeandTreachery]

PN
Sorry to hear that.
I was on site early the next day and the area hadn't been touched. NOTHING had been moved. Yes, I saw the seats and the pins and remember raising the point with my oppo.
It is possible,I suppose, that the pins had been put in,during the last phase of a long flight, prior to landing.

I watched the whole thing from 13Sqn dispersal during NAAFI break. The station was on exercise at the time and the CO kept it running.

[Old Speckled Aircrew]

With reference to the rear seat booster pins still fitted I was one of a number of rear crew who deliberately and regularly left the pin in. Our opinion was that if flying in turbulent conditions, especially in low level flight, we did not want an accidental firing of the cushion to happen when seated in our normal rear facing position with the possibility of trapping our legs under the table which, for the larger guys, may have required the use of a sharp aircrew knife to puncture it. In the event of a subsequent aircraft abandonment then any delay could have proved fatal.

[50+Ray]

My first trip across the pond to Goose was on the 7th seat, as my new Captain was ex-Cyprus and being screened into Winter Ops. It gave me an intro into 'life down in the hole' and also use of the sextant. As prescribed in GASOs we went through the Crew Escape Trainer a few days before the Ranger began.
Years later as a Captain I was on an annual Refresher visit in Groundschool. The Pilot instructor, many years my senior, remarked that he had NEVER had any suggestion from his rear crewmen that they would appreciate any more than the minimum number of Escape Trainer sessions. My fellow Captains on that Refresher week concurred!

[Pontius Navigator]

50+

Agree. We practised getting out every trip. Likewise moving around with a parachute was nobig deal. The problem was the trainer had no added value for experienced crews. It was static and in still air.

On my second OCU we had Victor plotter and a Shack AEO. On exiting the trainer I had my kit off and wrapped up ready for the next drill before they emerged.

The only useful drill was the ditching, safing the seats, easing a recumbent copilot over the side and then hauling a disabled casualty from pit below.

I started a thread earlier intended to discuss parachute landing practise, well, in Cyprus the Regiment had the real deal. Our flt cdr arranged for us to use it, to a man we declined.

I don't believe FJ crews were that keen to practise rolls and dragson land either.

[Timelord]

Like PN I have no recollection of handling seat cushion pins. Where were they fitted, who removed them and where were they stowed?

[Pontius Navigator]

TL, thanks. As the cushion was not explosive and needed a positive upward pull on small black and yellow it proibabkyy didn't rate a pin.


OTOH, the trial with an explosive parachute drogue device was abandoned in case the Nav rad shot a pilot. It did work though as I saw the dummies deployed from a cShack at 300 kts over the Akrotiri salt lake.

[The Oberon]

Like PN I have no recollection of handling seat cushion pins. Where were they fitted, who removed them and where were they stowed?
A long time ago but I think the booster cushions were operated by a small bottle under the rear of the seat. The cable to the bottle was secured to the bottle operating sear by a pip pin. The pin did not have a designated stowage as even when removed, it was still attached to the seat assembly by a short wire lanyard.

[Pontius Navigator]

T O, rings a bell. Beyond that ,nothing.

[Old Speckled Aircrew]

I think T O has triggered my memory and it was the insertion or non-insertion of the pin in the seat bottle that activated the firing.

[Pontius Navigator]

OSA, enabled, not activated , I hope ��

[Old Speckled Aircrew]

Soz P N I'm tired. I've been up since 10 this morning, but I don't think I made a spelling mistake.

[Lokwyr]

FarEastDriver,
I also seem to recall a Harrier at Yeoviton (?) where the display pilot forgot to put the pins in and the seat fired as he was leaving the aircraft. Think this was mid-'80s but not sure.O-D

1986. Happened right in front of me. After excellent display flight, aircraft returned to its allotted parking space. Pilot stood on seat, waiting for the ladder,and inadvertently trod on seat pan handle with fatal result.
That sight dissuaded my son from a flying career.

[charliegolf]

1986. Happened right in front of me. After excellent display flight, aircraft returned to its allotted parking space. Pilot stood on seat, waiting for the ladder,and inadvertently trod on seat pan handle with fatal result.
That sight dissuaded my son from a flying career.

Was it at Aschafenburg?

CG

[ShyTorque]

Was it at Aschafenburg?

CG

CG, There was an earlier, almost identical accident with a Harrier display pilot in Germany (I thought it was at 'Auf Den Dumpel' though - might be wrong; it's a very long time ago).

[charliegolf]

Aschaffenburg was a different one, now I've checked. That was the one that had a fatality in the crowd hit by the seat- the pilot was ok. Dumpel- I think I was on the Puma display there, and the Harrier went off without a hitch.

CG

[morton]

Rear crew seat pins.

I don’t recall any rear seat pins. What I do recall is a Corporal Nav Inst getting his legs trapped under the table after accidentally inflating the Nav Plotters assist cushion. The Nav Plotters seat only went fore and aft whereas the outboard seats could swivel and the seat inflation was accompanied by the seat back tilting forward to push the occupants up and out of the seat.

As he was working on his own he was there for some time before anyone knew of his predicament. Don’t know how he was extricated but it probably involved a sharp knife into the offending cushion. As a by-the-way he never wore a watch and used to set the GPI 6 to 360 Knots and used the Miles and 10ths of a mile counter for the minutes and seconds for timing of whatever he was doing. Very clever I thought as a new Liney at Cottesmore in the late 60’s.

[1208]

Ashaffenurg, if memory serves the pilot was told to eject by the tower due to the engine fire. A spectator was killed when he took pictures of the seat returning to earth. The front fuselage was undamaged and removed from the rest of the aircraft for display in the uk

[Pontius Navigator]

Morton, I think there was a safety pin for the rear crew booster cushions. Just one of those automatic procedures that sink into the subconscious.

[Barksdale Boy]

PN
I think not but with the same proviso as you.

[Yellow Sun]

Quote from the Aircrew Manual:

Pins are provided for the assistor cushion bottles To make the bottles operative the navigator/plotter's pin must be removed and the other two must be inserted.

Where was the plotter's pin stowed? I can't remember at all.

YS

[The Oberon]

Quote from the Aircrew Manual:



Where was the plotter's pin stowed? I can't remember at all.

YS

From the operating handle a sleeved cable went to a U shaped bracket, this bracket was secured to the operating sear of the gas bottle by a pip pin. When disabled the pin was removed preventing the handle from operating the bottle. As I remember it there was no stowage for the removed pins. The pins were attached to a short wire lanyard the other end of which was secured to the seat frame.

[Pontius Navigator]

BB, it was a l o n g time ago.

​​​​​​

[Tankertrashnav]

Wondering if the Victor had a different arrangement for the rear crew cushions. I just recall pulling a knob upwards whch activated the air bottle. No recollection of having to remove a pin - but as P - N says it was a long time ago, and memory is definitely unreliable.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, I think the only difference from the Vulcan was 3 swivel seats. I know the K2 had 3 seats in 1984, didn't they remove a seat when up that went to single nav; just a very vague memory.

[lsh]

My recollection of Aschaffenburg (In RAFG but not present) was:

Water injection motor exploded, causing power reduction whilst in hover.
(I think that event also damaged the engine? Believe Navy Harrier had a mod to armour the pump?)

Attempted to roll the a/c on, an outrigger broke, he ejected at some angle as wing hit ground.
Certainly, his buddy in the tower - who had direct comms - called him to eject, there were flames not visible to pilot.
The flames "caught up" with the aircraft rapidly, enveloping it.
George Blackie (RIP), the Puma display pilot, was on the ground watching with the Harrier pilot's wife!
It did not look good, George turned her away, rapidly.

As we know, thankfully that bit all worked well and the pilot (NG?) was fine, despite the unfavourable angle involved.
NW, the Puma Crewman (who is on the forum) ran to secure the seat.
It was past the end of the main crowd line - the gent was very unlucky indeed to have picked that spot and then have the seat land on him.

lsh
:E

[threeputt]

I definitely don't remember a safety pin on my seat cushion during my two Nav Rad tours on the beast. However, there was the story of a crew "dealing" with their captain who decided it would be a good idea to try and descend below Safety Alt, whilst IMC, in Goose Bay :mad: . I wonder who that was?
3P:ok:

[Tankertrashnav]

P - N it was after my time, but one seat was removed and the remaining nav seat had a rail which allowed it to slide across between the radar/plotter positions. I have to confess that the tanker nav radar's job was not the most demanding in the RAF, but in our defence we did a reasonable number of single nav trips when tanking was not going to be involved, such as air tests, pilots' instrument rating flights etc. I'm guessing that single nav in the final years of the K2 must have been quite busy at times.