Icao Level 6 English

[BEagle]

As some of you will know, it will soon be a mandatory €uropean requirement for ATPL and CPL holders to have an 'ICAO Level 6' English Language proficiency statement included in their licences.

Whilst those flying with any CAA-appointed examiner will be able to obtain this during their tests, there may be some (e.g. flying civilian airliners on a non JAR-FCL licence) who may need to obtain this endorsement if applying retrospectively for a JAR-FCL ATPL.

After discussions with the CAA today, anyone who is in such a position and who can obtain a suitable statement from a serving or former RAF CRMI/QFI which meets the 'Other acceptable means' as described in LASORS A.20 should be able to obtain the endorsement without further formality.

Anyone with whom I have ever flown during my time as a VC10 QFI/IRE/CRMI who finds that they need an ICAO Level 6 English Proficiency assessment statement may contact me via PM.

[iRaven]

BEagle you're a very kind chap :ok:

[Trim Stab]

Whilst those flying with any CAA-appointed examiner will be able to obtain this during their tests, there may be some (e.g. flying civilian airliners on a non JAR-FCL licence) who may need to obtain this endorsement if applying retrospectively for a JAR-FCL ATPL.


BEagle - your offer is well intentioned, but unfortunately there is no obligation for other JAR authorities to accept such a certificate, let alone other ICAO countries. I have a CAA Level 6 English certificate, but my JAR licencing authority would not accept it. I had to do their own "Monglish" test, in which I obstinately transcripted the tapes of Septic pilot gibberish into proper English and so was only awarded "Level 5".

I now take great pride in the fact that my licence is stamped "ICAO Level 6" in the language of my licensing authority (awarded by default, with no exam), but only "Level 5" in my own native tongue.

[iRaven]

Trim Stab

my JAR licencing authority

Pray tell, which country is your JAR licensing authority...in English I was taught in Prep School that 'licence' is a noun.

;)

Joking aside, though, it would be interesting to 'name and shame' the authority.

iRaven

[BEagle]

The UK CAA, as issuing authority for JAR-FCL pilot licences in the UK, will include the proficiency statement in the licence. I am not talking about the issue of a standalone Form SRG\1199.

Which maverick so-called JAR licensing authority will not accept another JAR licensing authority's legitimate licence? Presumably your licence was issued by the IAA?

(Incidentally, for those confused by licence and license (apart from lard-ar$ed burger eaters who dress in clothes made from old office carpets, for whom there is no hope :p), the easy way to remember is " I stir my coffee" - s for verb and c for noun.)

[Lima Juliet]

Says it all really:
http://moshland.com/wp-content/gallery/motivational/americans.jpg

[Grabbers]

Just spurted a very nice Chianti over the keyboard. :ok:

[sycamore]

Hi Beags, does that include` plugging-in ` behind for a refill ?????

[Trim Stab]

Pray tell, which country is your JAR licensing authority...in English I was taught in Prep School that 'licence' is a noun.


LOL! Perhaps you should have paid more attention to grammar at your school.

[BEagle]

syacamore, unfortunately that'll have to be a 'No'.

Trim Stab, being an ex-pongo perhaps you were educated at somewhere like that awful place on the hill, yah? However, from Mr. Bill Cope's English lessons at my minor prep school in the early 1960s, I learned that the -ing form is the present participle of a verb often used as an adjective. So in this case, licensing would be the correct form, because the verb form is to licence.

Aaargh - I can still smell the chalk, 'Puffing' Billy's pipe smoke and that ink/wooden desk aroma as we little lads grappled with Subject Object Predicate.....:\

By the way, TrimStab, surely you 'transcribed' those Spam-speak tapes, rather than having 'transcripted' them....?

Requiring any ex-UK military pilot to prove that they have ICAO Level 6 English Language proficiency is a total insult - can you imagine that happening in the US?

[Tourist]

"Requiring any ex-UK military pilot to prove that they have ICAO Level 6 English Language proficiency is a total insult - can you imagine that happening in the US? "

I have yet to meet a yank that would pass the test in English!

Incidentally, I recently added the Level 6 bollocks to mine by emailing an address the CAA gave me. They posed me a letter stating "to whom it may concern etc etc that I qualified"

[newt]

What is ICAO Level 6 English Beagle? Surely anybody English born should never have to take such a test? Or is this the CAA, JAR rules gone mad yet again?

Thank God I gave up my license when I retired from flying!!!!

[iRaven]

Quote: Pray tell, which country is your JAR licensing authority...in English I was taught in Prep School that 'licence' is a noun.
Pray tell, which country is your JAR licensing authority...in English I was taught in Prep School that 'licence' is a noun.
LOL! Perhaps you should have paid more attention to grammar at your school.


TS

I think you'll find it grammatically correct - but my punctuation always 'sucked the dog of death'!

I'll rephrase:

Pray tell, which country is your JAR licensing authority? In English, I was taught in Prep School that 'licence' is a noun.

Before you say it is "was a noun", I believe it is "is a noun" as it is present tense (ie. it still is a noun).

Finally, BEagle is completely correct - in this case, licensing would be the correct form, because the verb form is to licence.

I guess your score of "5" was pretty well justified then!

iRaven

:ok:

[BEagle]

newt, mate, my suspicion is that the CAA was scared of giving all UK-born pilots carte blanche ICAO Level 6 English proficiency, because not all UK-born pilots are...errm...errm...'native English speakers'.

Neither could they say "OK, we know you qualify" to some WASP, because Jamrag Ramjet Singh or whoever might cry "Discrimination!" if he didn't get the same deal.... Innit, bruv.

Getting the qualification is reasonably simple if there's someone to vouch for you - the whole idea being to improve safety on International RT by insisting on reasonable standards of English. It's just that the CAA have been rather more ponderous about the whole thing than other NAOs - such as the FAA. Who, I gather, said "The exams are set in English - if you can pass them then your English must be good enough!".

I'm afraid it's yet more €urocrap....

And it's to license, iRaven - plus newt gave up his licence!

Hey, newt, have you been watching Come Fly with Me on BBC TV? The scene in which Penny, Great British Air's snobbiest employee, evicts passengers from the lower social classes who have deigned to buy tickets to fly in her exclusive first-class cabin was such a brilliant p*ss-take on ba!

[iRaven]

Rubbish! I've got my self confused now! :ugh:

[BEagle]

Just remember "I stir (verb) my coffee (noun)"!

Simples!

[Trim Stab]

Pray tell, which country is your JAR licensing authority? In English, I was taught in Prep School that 'licence' is a noun.


Your new phrase is an improvement on the old version, however the second sentence is still poorly structured. I award you a middling level 4. You will need to come back in three years and demonstrate that you have improved your grammar.


However, from Mr. Bill Cope's English lessons at my minor prep school in the early 1960s, I learned that the "-ing" form is the present participle of a verb and is often used as an adjective.



BEagle, I award you a lower level 5.

[d105]

I would imagine any British citizen would get a ICAO level 6 by default? The way I understand it level 6 equals "native speaker".

Not in the military myself. But one my second to last LPC the TRE was so kind to award me level 6 anyway even though I'm not a native speaker.

[iRaven]

TS

Luckily for me with a Postgraduate Master's Degree in Science (MSc) your award of "middling 4" matters not. I always knew I was a duffer at the Arts (especially languages) so I went down the science route. I guess that's why I got an "Aircrew 'A' " in ISS - the RAF's Service Writing correspondence course. By the way an "Aircrew 'A' " is a Grade 'C'. :ok:

So anyway, who is the issuing nation for your JAR ATPL or CPL?

iRaven

[MrBernoulli]

I occasionally fly with a native of Belgium, and English is his second or third language. Nevertheless, his grammar and use of words not now considered 'everyday English', is very impressive. In fact, he speaks far better English than most of the 'yoof' in the UK, innit. Massive!

It would be an utter travesty if he was not awarded an ICAO Level 6 certificate. :hmm:

[Wensleydale]

A bit of thread drift....

Back in the 1980s, all aircrew undergoing training at the NATO E-3A Component at Geilenkirchen had to undergo an English course and test prior to commencing their formal training. Only Americans and Canadians were exempt, and so in 1987, when the first Brits arrived at GK to learn the E-3A prior to E-3D (which would arrive in a couple of years time) they were expected to take the English language course (NATO not having the flexibility to "change the rules"). One of the first Brits to arrive found this quite absurd - especially when one of his course compatriots, a red haired Italian Lt Col, thought that the Brit looked more Italian than he did. The upshot was that the two swapped identities, and the Brit (who was actually white Kenyan) turned up for the first lesson as the Italian Lt Col and vice-versa. The two let it run for a while until the Brit's poor Italian accent gave him away.

The result was that the instructor also saw the pointless side of the training for the Brits and they were given an "honourary pass" without having to attend or to violate the rules. I think that the instructors were quite worried, because they taught "American English" and did not like us correcting their spelling and "slang" (we had the Europeans calling an "eraser" a rubber in very short order because the official language was stated as English and not American). Generally the English used by the 14 Nations within the multinational crews at GK was passable (helped by insisting upon rigid procedure within the crews) , but we still had a few amusing incidents caused by misunderstandings during times of stress. Not for this thread though!

[Vc10Tail]

I am puzzled :why having ICAO ATPL attained level 6 LPR first time in an English speaking nation was forced to do an additional ICAO ATPL license in another ICAO state who also granted me level 6 to now have to do an English tests in a third ICAO state because this state, namely Sultanate of Oman (a non-native English speaking state) does not recognise any other I.C.A.O. E.L.P. except locally tested..and invigilated by natives who neither read, speak, nor write English as native speakers with all associated deficiencies!

This begs the question:

What is the purpose of I.C.A.O. and its conventions if we have to re-do medicals, and flying tests as well as English tests even if the highest standard is attained?

I.C.A.O. then might become as lame as the U.N. police force?

[dirkdj]

MrBernouillie,

The Belgian CAA will not award more than level 4 even if mr Shakespeare himself took the test, they also will not accept any tests of Belgian nationals done for example by a professor of English literature at a major UK university. By definition nobody here can have more than level 4, meaning a retest every x years.

Complete nonsense if you ask me.:mad:

[Milo Minderbinder]

dirkdj

presumably that is because the testers realise their own limitations and cannot grade anyone to a higher degree of profiency than they themselves hold, or can reliably test?

[dirkdj]

Milo,

You hit the nail on the head.

[Wensleydale]

I think you'll find it grammatically correct - but my punctuation always 'sucked the dog of death'!

I'll rephrase:

Pray tell, which country is your JAR licensing authority? In English, I was taught in Prep School that 'licence' is a noun.

Before you say it is "was a noun", I believe it is "is a noun" as it is present tense (ie. it still is a noun).

Finally, BEagle is completely correct - in this case, licensing would be the correct form, because the verb form is to licence.




Is this why Americans use "permit"?

[boxerpilot]

Well for all joiners of CX, EVERYONE has to take the ICAO test. Level 4 is operational but requires retesting in 3 years. This is the minimum, however, CX doesn't hire at that minimum and even native english speakers had problems with the recordings with accents from all over Asia as well as the paraphrasing and description of pictures, airline scenarios and documentaries.
Academic and educational backgrounds didn't help much for some as it came down to sentence structuring, inference, annunciations and pronunciations. Pretty interesting once you are in the hot seat.

[BEagle]

Academic and educational backgrounds didn't help much for some as it came down to sentence structuring, inference, annunciations and pronunciations. Pretty interesting once you are in the hot seat.

How utterly absurd. Clearly invented as a way of extracting money by inventing a ridiculously excessive test, so that some 'provider' can benefit.

[Wensleydale]

even native english speakers had problems with the recordings with accents from all over Asia


It sounds like the call centre for my bank....

[maxaoa]

Here in NZ I recently had to undergo the ignominy of an ELT (born and bred in the UK!!!, 19 yrs UK military flying), only to find that that the person I had to understand had a very broad scottish accent !! I feel for all the Indian imports doing their flying training over here.

[Art Field]

As a graduate of the English course for NATO student pilots arriving for training in Canada in 1957 we had to allow a full day to pass before gaining our certificate. Perhaps we should have taken longer to cope with such as the order from the Grouop Captain halfway through the formal graduation parade who invited all present with " OK yous guys, fall-out for a smoke"