Safety hits another low in Australian Aviation

[katzenjammer]

S
P
I
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guess who.

This company is committed to a Just Culture, apparantly.

A pilot self reports an incident, immediately stood down for seven weeks, then sent to the simulator for a check, consequently demoted to F/O.

Now lets not get concerned about the incident itself as we don't have all the details, what is important here is that a pilot self reports an incident that was not of a reckless nature, yet finds his life turned upside down and inside out. If this same pilot had not reported the incident, no more would have come from this incident.

Do you think other pilots will be reporting incidents and risk being treated like this?

To make it worse the HFO, (Chief Pilot) is not current on any aircraft type, he is the CP for a company operating ONLY Jets, yet himself does not have 1 hr of jet time. His last employment was within Surviellance Aus were he could not pass a Captains check to line on a turbo prop. He is of course Ex CASA.

[beaver_rotate]

1 guess??

Starts with Nob, ends in Ham?

Sux, though not suprised...

[cone zone]

I do understand your concerns about a "just culture", we have probably all done the human factors training now.

But to play devil's advocate, don't you think it depends on the circumstances of what the chap in question actually did. I mean just because you admit to a crime doesn't make it ok.

As far as the poison dwarf cp, well that is another matter!

[Icarus2001]

If this same pilot had not reported the incident, no more would have come from this incident.

I believe that the QAR may have picked up the "events".

Still, I agree with your sentiment. Mistakes happen and he owned up.

[Agrajag]

Now lets not get concerned about the incident itself as we don't have all the details, what is important here is that a pilot self reports an incident that was not of a reckless nature, yet finds his life turned upside down and inside out. If this same pilot had not reported the incident, no more would have come from this incident. Oh yes it would have. Unlike the OP, I do know some more details of this incident, and it was serious enough.

Standing a pilot down, as we all know, is SOP after a serious incident until it has been investigated. The demotion occurred after the sim ride - read into that what you will.

To make it worse the HFO, (Chief Pilot) is not current on any aircraft type, he is the CP for a company operating ONLY Jets, yet himself does not have 1 hr of jet time. His last employment was within Surviellance Aus were he could not pass a Captains check to line on a turbo prop. He is of course Ex CASA. I also happen to know the background of the HFO, and time with CASA is just a small part of his experience. It shouldn't be used as an opportunity for a cheap shot. A man with higher integrity you will not find.

Perhaps the OP could wind back the character assassination a bit, in favour of getting the facts (about both parties mentioned) straight.

[RENURPP]

I believe that the QAR may have picked up the "events".

Yes the data would have been "picked up" but it would have been de-identified. The deed and the Policy and Procedures would not allow the release of the names under these circumstances I believe.

I also find it strange to have a CP with no relevant experience, how ever he does have a jet endorsement, sim only.

[Waghi Warrior]

All I can say to the pilot involved is to keep your head up and try and move on. I know it's hard but I've been down a very similar track and it's not nice.

Safety,this has a totally negative effect on safety when this kind of behavior is being displayed by an organization/individuals,when I mean individuals I mean checkies with a motive to fail,as this at the end of the day adversely effects peoples attitudes,well being,not to mention the effects on their families. Been there done that and it bloody ugly. Obviously in any situation illustrated like above the airline is going to have to show evidence that they have acted,but is demoting someone always required,no in most cases !

At the end of the day the pilot was checked to line previously as a captain,are there flaws in the training department. I don't know anything about this case,apart from what I've read here. Sad thing is that this kind of behavior isn't only isolated to only a couple of airlines within our region.

Whilst I'm not trying to defend the pilot concerned,as I don't know the details,however I do know that cases like this aren't uncommon by any means.

[katzenjammer]

Standing a pilot down, as we all know, is SOP after a serious incident until it has been investigated.

Rosed coloured glasses i'm afraid.
There have been multiple stick shaker events within this organisation in recent years.
Agrajag, please advise us truthfully how many of the crews have been stood down pending stick shaker investigations?
I believe 1 prior to this incident?
At least one of the stick shaker events, possibly the most serious, didn't even involve a report to the ATSB, if you are in the know, maybe you could explain why not?
Standing a pilot down should be SOP, regardless of which side of the fence they come from, that is not the issue. The time frame between standing down and the check flight, neglecting to allow him his request to jump seat prior to the check, only allowing him one check, contrary to the company manuals, and claiming the incident flight was his first fail. All honest mistakes that every pilot is subject too I guess.
SOPs are only relevant if they are required and followed by all crew and employees.

[Arnold E]

Perhaps the OP could wind back the character assassination a bit, in favour of getting the facts (about both parties mentioned) straight.

Ok no problem, set us straight.:cool:

[mince]

Guys is this really the place to discuss this????

I think NOT.

For the sake of all parties involved be it directly, or indirectly please desist.

MODs where are you?? Lock it up

[Skynews]

Why lock it up?

It's relevant and current. If the mods were to lock every post that concerned a current event, they may just as well close the BB.

Have a look and see how many threads involve current accidents and incidents, I.e. Safety!

[Tidbinbilla]

It is a current story, and yes it's relevant. The thread stays for the time being.

However, no names thanks!

[Agrajag]

Quote:
Standing a pilot down, as we all know, is SOP after a serious incident until it has been investigated.
Rosed coloured glasses i'm afraid.
There have been multiple stick shaker events within this organisation in recent years.
Agrajag, please advise us truthfully how many of the crews have been stood down pending stick shaker investigations?
I believe 1 prior to this incident?
At least one of the stick shaker events, possibly the most serious, didn't even involve a report to the ATSB, if you are in the know, maybe you could explain why not?This was more than just a stick shaker event on its own. The lengthy investigation was about the circumstances that led to the event, which revealed a lot more to it.

Standing a pilot down should be SOP, regardless of which side of the fence they come from, that is not the issue. The time frame between standing down and the check flight, neglecting to allow him his request to jump seat prior to the check, only allowing him one check, contrary to the company manuals, and claiming the incident flight was his first fail. All honest mistakes that every pilot is subject too I guess.And again, there's a lot more to it than what you've quoted.

For reasons alluded to by others here, I will refrain from commenting further. But impugning the company representatives, whose job it is to prevent a recurrence, is too simplistic.

SOPs are only relevant if they are required and followed by all crew and employees. Exactly. And, in the incident itself, they weren't.

[Skynews]

So reading between the lines here, a stick shaker alone in this company is not a serious enough event to require an investigation and therefore stand down the crew until its complete? :*

What is a serious event these days? :bored:

How many stick shaker events are they having? :confused:

[Capn Bloggs]

So reading between the lines here, a stick shaker alone in this company is not a serious enough event to require an investigation and therefore stand down the crew until its complete?

What is a serious event these days?

How many stick shaker events are they having?
Skynews, the Stick Shaker in the 717 is ridiculously sensitive. Combined with poor design of the autoflight system, it is quite easy to get a momentary SS when the crew were doing nothing wrong or silly. Smart aeroplane? Most of the time.

[Skynews]

Investigation: AO-2010-081 - Boeing 717-200, VH-NXD, Kalgoorlie/Boulder Aerodrome WA, 13 October 2010, (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2010/aair/ao-2010-081.aspx)Bloggs,

So where is the line and who draws it as too what requires a stand down and investigation?

That seems to be the bone of contention here?

[Capn Bloggs]

So where is the line and who draws it as too what requires a stand down and investigation?
A good question. The people who decide where the line in the sand is are the ones that own the train set. Whether the line, in this case, was appropriate, will become evident provided the ATSB does a thorough investigation and covers all the issues.

[Skynews]

Unlikely they own It, more likely they rent it, and the lease period may be shorter than expected :E

From what a friend in that company says, the courts will also feature in the final decision.

[War with Inner Peace]

Company does not seem very happy now that the Letter of Complaint has been distributed.

Very interesting message at sign-on.

If everything is on the up and up then why doesn't the Company just publish their original response letter??

Also, as this issue deals with high capacity airline operations perhaps this thread would be better served on DG&P Reporting Points?

Cheers,

WWIP

[ozbiggles]

One would hope he is a member of a union, if he is allowed to be?

[katzenjammer]

Its unfortunate for the management. their response will be greeted with distrust, why, because they cannot be trusted.

Recent moving of the deck chairs has not changed management culture, just the names on their doors!

I understand the issue that lead to the stick shaker was addressed months ago at a check meeting, post the Emirates incident. The powers that be declared it not important "our sytems work well". well they don't do they? Evidenced by the changes that happened post haste when outside bodies get involved..

As an extra HFO had "serious accident" this morning so things may have slowed down even more.

[Icarus2001]

Was he hit by a karma, I mean car?

[B717_OHNO]

Bring in the reserve YES man.



Another disappointment :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Icarus2001]

Yes the data would have been "picked up" but it would have been de-identified. The deed and the Policy and Procedures would not allow the release of the names under these circumstances I believe.


So how did the incident become known about? Are you saying that the crew self reported then got demoted? If they had said nothing no one would have known? Great message to send to the pilot group. HIDE ALL FCUK UPS.

[gobbledock]

Are you saying that the crew self reported then got demoted?
If true it wouldn't be the first time it's happenned. I won't pass judgement yet, but if the lads did self report and have been royally pineappled as a result then management need to reverse track and go back to Just Culture basics 101.

ICAO -
"A culture in which front line operators or others are not
punished for actions, omissions or decisions taken by
them that are commensurate with their experience and
training, but where gross negligence, wilful violations and destructive acts are not tolerated".

Standing down a pilot(s) while they retain full pay is a normal part of an investigative process, especially if initially it appears that there may be have been the potential for a serious outcome form the incident. No unjsutice there. It is the follwow-up actions by management that reflect whether Just Culture principles are applied within the organisation from top to bottom.

[War with Inner Peace]

For the information of TWU members

Reproduced from an email sent to the membership last Friday.


Dear Members,


For your information;

Please find documents attached which relate to a workplace dispute that has developed from the Company's alleged mishandling of a Flight Operations investigation.

In short, we allege arbitrary decision-making and a disregard for Company Policy and procedures.

So far, the Company has refused to address our concerns and has stated, in writing, that they are unwilling to review the matter any further.

What does it all mean?


* If the Company is successful, then each and every flight is a 'check' flight and the Head of Flying Operations may fail you, retrospectively, for any flight whenever he decides it is necessary.


* At the moment it is an 'incident' flight, but, what's next?


* Captain ********** self-reported and look at what happened to him!


* Will the next Crew self-report or will they rely on the protection of the FOQA deed?


* So what will happen to the 'Reporting Culture' and the Company's Safety Management System?


We need your help


The Transport Workers' Union (WA Branch) and its Delegates are representing Captain ********** in this matter.


Over the coming days and weeks we will be organising TWU Union meetings to discuss this important issue and will be inviting TWU Officials to visit the work site in order to raise and address key safety issues with the membership.


Please show your support by attending these meetings.


Also, in the CNS and DRW Crew Rooms (coming soon to PER) there is a petition supporting our call to reinstate Captain **********. Please consider supporting our cause by signing the petition.


This is happening to **********, but, it could be happening to any one of us. Who will be next?


Most Importantly, if you feel that the 'Reporting Culture' and the Company's Safety Management System are damaged by the Company's treatment of Captain **********, then, please report your concerns, confidentially if needed, to the ATSB and Group Safety.


Regards,

**********
TWU Delegate

[katzenjammer]

Bring in the reserve YES man.


Granted, all you had to do was ask!

They threw in a new MFC to boot.
Lets give him a week and then hang him! He is qualified, straight from the Adelaide school of HR :8:8

[RENURPP]

Maybe a change of faces will create the opportunity to revisit this situation. I'm am not convinced it was all up to HFO, maybe some pressure from above or outside, but hey, some times you need to say NO.

I can't understand the logic of lets try and fail some one, it would be easier on all of us if the logic was reversed to lets do what we can to pass them.

That doesn't need the standards to be lowered, in fact they need to be raised.
I don't think the current mob, with maybe the exception of the new bloke, (havent seen him in action yet) have that ability.
Its a changing world out there in regards to experience and standards, training departments need to recognise it and adjust their "training" to suit. I think we lack people who have experience in training, at best they have done some airline line training, and the results are obvious.

The feeling amongst the crews is as expected however still dissapointing to see, the "Just Culture" environment has taken one huge hit. That cannot be good.

[Icarus2001]

Apparently the event was considered a "fail" from a T&C point of view and so poor sim became a second "fail" leading to demotion. So all line flights are now considered checks?

[Skynews]

So if I understand this correctly, a pilot had an incident, which he self reported, this was "investigated" (by who) sent to the sim to be rechecked, didn't go so well, therefore demoted?

If this is an accurate description of the events, then there is obviously some serious problems within the check and training systems at this particular company.

Good luck on your line flights guys, be careful about reporting anything from abird-strike up.