Things I bet you didn't know

[Brian Abraham]

From the latest comic............err, Flight Safety Mag - total electrical failure in a PA-28-235 around Geraldton way.

My training kicked in, and I tuned the transponder to 7600 in the hope that it would work, so that any other transponder equipped aircraft would be alerted that there was an aircraft in the area without communication.

.....this Cherokee was not fitted with an alternator switch, only a master switch. Because the engine was still running, it seemed most sensible not to recycle the master switch for fear of the engine stopping.

.....if I had recycled the master switch, the engine would still have run, because the key on a separate circuit controls the mags.


Reminds me of the time where they deduced the reason for an engine failure in flight was a flat battery.

[Atlas Shrugged]

it seemed most sensible not to recycle the master switch for fear of the engine stopping.

Rubbish! Since when does the master switch shut down the engine in a Warrior, albeit a 235 Dakota?....and. how can a flat battery be the sole cause of a fuel driven piston engine failing?

[Sunfish]

If the alternator drops offline, the POH emergency procedures says to switch alternator off, wait and switch on again.

[Skynews]

Guys, I think this guy was completely lacking basic system knowledge.

Turned hisntransponder to 7600 hoping it would work and that any other transponder equipped aircraft would know he had a radio failure, hahahahah:O:O

Don't touch that RED switch, the engine might stop!:D:D

I will have to find this magazine and have a read and laugh.

[Macchi 408]

It really worries me knowing I share the same airspace with people like this. :eek:

[Jabawocky]

This has to be a wind up...........surely??? :\

[Ultralights]

after some of the stories i have heard recently im surprised he even knew what 7600 was for...

[Arnold E]

Well, as it can be seen, all of us people involved in aviation are not gods after all.

Having said that though, this is BAK.:hmm:

[DropYourSocks]

Poor form, should have had a field picked out just incase... :ugh: which issue was this?

[Deaf]

How long ago did the gem of information arrive? Just been through the bin and it hasn't arrived since last Friday - would be still in the plastic.

[propblast]

it seemed most sensible not to recycle the master switch for fear of the engine stopping.

Thats twice in two different stories I've heard that now. The other was in a Cessna. And here I was thinking that that is why aircraft have magneto's.

[Arnold E]

And here I was thinking that that is why aircraft have magneto's.

Not all aircraft these days have magnetos, Mine doesn't.:eek:

[High 6]

And of course if he had gotten lost he could always do a 360 and return back to where he came from....... :sad:

[glekichi]

I once had a fellow instructor tell me that the brakes on all c152s are so weak that there was no way you could ever get them to lock on wet grass. Needless to say he was ripping up grass runways and didn't have a clue.

Better still had a CFI tell me he always wound the qnh so that radar couldnt tell he was doing low flying. :hmm:

[Pinky the pilot]

Anyone reckon we could persuade Mac Job to come back?:hmm:

the latest comic

Right first time Brian.:(

[Brian Abraham]

According to the register he does exist so should you hear VH POH on the air, well...............

[Capn Bloggs]

It really worries me knowing I share the same airspace with people like this.
It worries me that the editing standard for the regulator's top/only safety magazine is so appalling. Didn't anybody who knows anything basic about aviation proof-read that?

[Dangly Bits]

I would hazard a guess that no one inside the regulator WANTS to proof read it. Anyone know what the Editor did before being the FSA Edtior?

[Wally Mk2]

The fact that this guy has little BAK is only one thing but remember this guy like all the rest of us was taught by an instructor, there's the real worry!

'jaba' if it is a windup then we have a nutter on the loose out there besides us buddy:E
As for this safety article reaching print? Well a LOT of the print media is a joke!



Wmk2

[Old Akro]

The pilot may have been inexperienced and ignorant. But what about Flight Safety Magazine's editor? Was she out to lunch? This is another significant failure from a magazine that is supposed to be providing aviation safety education, not something modeled on Women's Day with a different wrapper.

What was that award that the magazine got?

It would be funny if our user-pays system wan't funding it. Will there ever be any accountability for CASA's spending of OUR money?

[Brian Abraham]

remember this guy like all the rest of us was taught by an instructorYou have a point Wally, but what about the CASA exams one is required to pass.

And can anyone tell me if there is ANY aircraft with a generator/alternator that does not have both a battery switch and a generator/alternator switch. Long time since I had anything to do with a 28-235 (1964ish) but seem to remember it had both.

[ajy29]

The worst bit is the pilot gets $500 for having his story published.
But is it worth the humiliation?

[Macchi 408]

Don't CASA have their little "obviously this pilot made some bad decisions which they identified" say about the story at the end?

I'm keen to hear what CASA said about this one in particular...

[SgtBundy]

And can anyone tell me if there is ANY aircraft with a generator/alternator that does not have both a battery switch and a generator/alternator switch. Long time since I had anything to do with a 28-235 (1964ish) but seem to remember it had both.

I am not far into my initial training, and flown 3-4 different Warriors at my club so far. I am fairly sure at least one of them did not have the split master switch, because I had to do a double take to make sure I was not missing something.

[bushy]

An aviation safety magazine will be ineffective if it prints nonsense, because it will not be respected by pilots. The industry needs a serious, quality magazine. A good one can be a very useful safety tool. I do not believe that this one is.

[Checkboard]

The old Aviation Safety Digest, issue 141, made the same error in confusing Master Switches and Magnetos.

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/349258-best-aviation-safety-digest-proposed-book-mac-job.html#post4498625

[Dangnammit]

I've heard of someone landing in a paddock due to electrical failure. Yes, it's true!

I'll never be a pax on domestic chinese flights.

[Brian Abraham]

SgtBundy, wonderful what one forgets after 45 years. Ferreted around last night and found some old 172 and 28-235 notes and you are quite correct. No switch for generator, but you still had an ammeter and/or an under voltage light. One shouldn't have to wait until the battery is cactus to find the generator is not doing its job.

An aviation safety magazine will be ineffective if it prints nonsense, because it will not be respected by pilots.

bushy, what you say is correct in its context, but in this case it seems this article is a reflection (poor) on the pilot? who wrote it. Pity CASA did not give some commentary at the end of the article, as they often do. Perhaps in a perverse way they were letting the community know what is to be found out there.

[bentleg]

While on the subject of latest Flight Safety magazine I'm having a problem the Flying Ops quiz, question 10 on page 67.


10. When departing from a non-towered aerodrome a departure report
(a) is not required
(b) is not mandatory but is recommended.
(c) is required, and the minimum information required is departure location, tracking details and intended level.
(d) is required, and the minimum infomration reqiuired is departure location, tracking details, intended level, ETA at first reporting point.


Answer is (d) and the reference given GEN 3.4 5.14.8 is the format of a departure radio call from a non towered aerodrome.

I have only given a departure call from a non-towered field when departing IFR. I thought no call was required VFR. I cannot find anything in ENR 1.4 3.2 CTAF procedures and Procedures at Non towered aerodromes about a mandatory departure call for all aircraft at a non towered field.

Am I missing something?

[Horatio Leafblower]

can anyone tell me if there is ANY aircraft with a generator/alternator that does not have both a battery switch and a generator/alternator switch.

Grob G115
Cessna C182G

[Roger Greendeck]

Not missing anything Bentleg, its not required if your VFR. Time for a new editor me thinks. :hmm:

[FlyingKiwi_73]

OK... bracing for the flaming but i am a VERY new Pilot... yes i have my ticket and passed Air tech which may make this worse..


Rubbish! Since when does the master switch shut down the engine in a Warrior, albeit a 235 Dakota?....and. how can a flat battery be the sole cause of a fuel driven piston engine failing?


If the alternator goes it does not charge the battery, in this case the battery will run down eventually. you'll loose things like radios, lights, flaps if electric. but the engine will still run ... right? The batt holds the initial charge to start the engine and as a short term backup should the alt fail... right?

Also the PA38's and 28's i have flown have had both split and 'solid' master switches. any idea why?

[Arm out the window]

Kiwi, just read your tech notes and look at how a magneto works.
Your first two questions will be answered and you will have the satisfaction of having found it out for yourself.

[Ixixly]

Roger Greendeck Not missing anything Bentleg, its not required if your VFR. Time for a new editor me thinks. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

True, not required, personally I give them anyways as the area i'm in can get quite busy and some of the places people go to you won't necessarily have heard of so knowing as they depart what direction they're going and what height they've decided to go there at can be very handy. Just a personal point I thought i'd make :}

[Oktas8]

The penultimate sentence of the article:

...if I had recycled the master switch, the engine would have still run, because...

The story is about a pilot who made a silly mistake or two, learned from it, and now wants others not to make the same mistakes. No reason at all to suggest a new editor is needed.

Even all-electric aircraft like the DA40/42 can have the electric master turned off in flight without suffering engine failure. In fact, is there any aircraft of any size whose engines require electric masters to be on?

Regards to all,
O8

[Brian Abraham]

Oktas, for a pilot to admit that he doesn't understand how the ignition system works is akin to saying he didn't know you have to fill the tanks with petrol for the engine to run. Silly mistake? No, rather an inexcusable lack of knowledge. And there was the lack of knowledge how transponders operate.

[bentleg]

there was the lack of knowledge how transponders operate.

Yes, he thought a transponder set to 7600 would be detected by other transponder equipped aircraft. :ugh:

I have a problem with the magazine promoting this article, given the errors of fact contained in it.

[Oktas8]

Hi Brian. Yes, the lack of knowledge is inexcusable - but sadly more than rare. I support this kind of article because it promotes discussion about a topic that is so basic that it is "assumed knowledge" among most pilots. But on every occasion that I've had a flight test candidate suffer a real ignition or electrical related difficulty in flight, he or she has failed to address it correctly. So perhaps this kind of article needs to be published occasionally to remind aero club pilots of the basics.

The article should have had a more comprehensive error-correction sidebar.

Cheers, O8

[frigatebird]

8oktas

The article and its errors were easy.. - but pray.. what is this ? - a more comprehensive error-correction sidebar.

[Horatio Leafblower]

The article should have had a more comprehensive error-correction sidebar.

An error-detection sidebar (EDS) is similar to an electrical bus bar. Usually located on the right hand side of the cockpit, a series of buttons and flashing lights labelled in accordance wth the HFACS taxonomy will alert the pilot (or instructor) in the event of a human factors failure.

An error-detection and correction sidebar (EDS+C) is an advanced sysytem interfaced with the autopilot and will cut the pilot out of the loop in the event of Human Error. This system is often found on Airbus aircraft.

Error-detection, correction and termination (EDSCT) is under development and will use electrodes in the pilots headset to terminate the pilot if an error is made.

The alarm system is connected to the pilot's brain through his headset and later models interface with Bluetooth adapters on the headset to notify your friends, via Facebook, that you have f:mad:cked up.

...or he could mean the little boxed column on the last page of the story where a CASA chappy plays Monday's Expert and tells everyone about the blindingly obvious errors made by the hapless pilot :ok:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Reminds me of a certain Twin Comanche many years ago, (DFH), whose pilot took off from BK and got an 'electrical failure' somewhere out in the trng area, so he put it down in a paddock - as a 'precautionary' landing - "before the failure caused the engines to stop"............

Did substantial damage.....:sad::sad:

Cause - turned out that he 'forgot' to turn alternator(s) "ON" after start up.:=:=

That's why he got the electrical "failure" :eek::eek:

Similar questions were asked then too.........:ugh::ugh:

Cheers and GOOD LUCK flying with these turkeys.....:}:}

[Rose_Thorns]

Once flew with a 'kid' who spend 3 hours (under a bonnet - in the sun), trying to locate the spark plugs in a diesel engine. (LOL and a few beers later, you know the story).

Once flew with a 'kid' who was convinced the engines would stall if the PRPM got below 1000, - 110 KIAS on short final in a Partenavia. (Whooo`Hooo).

Been surprised during ground school to have to explain in 'the cat sat on the mat' terms how a battery, generator, alternator, the tea kettle, elevator trim, spark plug gaps and even cat doors, (yes in terms of how a draft effects why a door slams).

It's all to do with being able to fix your motor bike, not the computer.

It's all to do with mental arithmetic, not the elegant use of calculators.

If, we can't, don't or won't teach new chums that summer does not mean beach towels and 'slip, slop, slap'; that winter is not all about hot chocolate and log fires, then we, as a teaching industry, are derelict.

Not the silly sod who lobbed in the bloody desert with absolutely NFI about how, what, why and when.

[Rose_Thorns]

If the guy teaching doesn't know??. What then.

I hear the`RAA has got some real experience in the ranks; instructor wise.

I know GA has a lot of not really experienced guys on deck.

But, seriously, who is assessing the standards.

BTW - what the Foxtrot Hotel "is" a 'Grob'. Lord what a name to include in the`same sentence with a Miles Gemini, Stagger wing Beach, Ryan, de Havilland, Lockheed, Douglas etc.

Enough Joyce, we speak with the heathen. :D

[Horatio Leafblower]

but the G-115 makes a great trainer because unlike comparable aircraft the rudder actually has to be used.

Excellent point.

Perhaps that's why I don't understand why RAAus types make such a big fuss about rudder? :ouch:

[LeadSled]

It worries me that the editing standard for the regulator's top/only safety magazine is so appalling. Didn't anybody who knows anything basic about aviation proof-read that?

Bloggs,
What the bleeding heck is going on, this is the second time this year I have had to agree with you about something. What's the world coming to??

Remember the article a few years ago, said that the biggest cause of fatalities was pre-flight planning, presumably from the from all that sharp edged paper cutting and infecting poor pilots.

Obviously the message was: don't do any per-flight planning, then you won't die from it!!

Tootle pip!!