Best value aircraft that's been in the RAF

[sangiovese.]

Sat in the pub last night with a mate discussing RAF aircraft past and present. We got to wondering what the best aircraft is that's ever been in service - op usefulness, value vs cost, longevity, upgrades etc

Many types discussed (5 pints worth), and our conclusion (which pains me as I'm fixed wing!) although we probably missed many types

The Chinook!

Anybody agree?

[Green Flash]

Chipmunk

Cheap as chips, a little beaut to fly, fairly straightforward to maintain and let bazillions reach out and touch .....

Also a long and illustrious lineage and there are still a few chugging about to this day. It certainly put a silly grin on this ex Air Cadets face!:ok:

[Diablo Rouge]

Hawker Hunter:

First flew in 1951 and entered service in July 1954. Still used by the British military in 2011. Has been a Fighter, Photo Recce, Ground Attack and Advanced Trainer in its time. Remains in useful employment to this day by the Royal Navy albeit civilian owned and I am not sure if they are civvie or mil or both who drive it these days.

Do not forget the minor conflicts such as Aden, Kenya, Borneo where such venerable aircraft as Canberra, Shackleton and Hunter all proved their operational worth. No argument as to value for money gleaned from the Chinook since 1982 but would argue that the Hunter should take the prize on this one. Whose round is it? Mines a Stella:

[F3sRBest]

Mr Can say hello to Miss Worms..... sits back to enjoy the show :)

[thowman]

I am assuming when referring to the Chinook, this doesn't include the 8 HC3s? :)

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Herc? Canberra?

[andyy]

DR - where is the Hunter in use with the British Military today? The RN ones (flown by FRADU - which is the ones I am assuming that you mean) went a long time ago, to be replaced by Hawks. Airframes owned by he MoD, flown & maintained by Civilians.

[manccowboy]

I would imagine something like the VC10, the RAF bought 14 new the rest were secondhand from BA for pennies.

A Little VC10derness (http://www.vc10.net/index.html)

[BossEyed]

andyy, Google ZZ190 or ZZ191. (They're ex-Swiss Mk58s, on contract to MOD from HHA)

[Willard Whyte]

1967 - 2012, the C-130K, in my opinion.

[LookingNorth]

Hurricane or Spitfire, without which you surely wouldn't be discussing any other types.

[downsizer]

Nimrod MRA4? :hmm:

[philrigger]

;)

Maybe DR is referring to these people;

Hawker Hunter Aviation Home (http://www.hunterteam.com/main.htm)

[minigundiplomat]

Chinook
C130
Vulcan
Canberra

European cooperation projects seem thin on the ground.

[Biggus]

Why only relatively modern types?

For an aircraft that entered service in 1916, and finally retired from the RAF in 1932, lasting for 16 years in a period of rapid technological change, I offer you....


Bristol F.2 Fighter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_F.2_Fighter)


Alternatively, a classic multi-role aircraft of its day, and a world beater to boot, 1940 to 1963 in this case (I think?)...


de Havilland Mosquito - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito)

My favourite for sure!! :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

I would imagine something like the VC10, the RAF bought 14 new the rest were secondhand from BA for pennies.

A Little VC10derness (http://www.vc10.net/index.html)

Actually the first batch were bought from East African for £100k and cost a lot more to make serviceable.

How about the Dominie?

[sangiovese.]

OMG what have I started? :E

Herc K we decided came second, next week is worst value and what should we have bought.....but that's for another thread entirely!

I like the Bristol F2 idea though

[A2QFI]

Tiger Moth did well; trained lots of people in many countries and very good value. In the 50s one could buy a Tiger with 1 year's C of A for £200; I don't know what they are now - £10k+ and needing restoration?

[dalek]

The Jaguar was conceived as an Advanced Trainer as well as a Strike Attack aircraft.
When it was decided that it was far to expensive to replace the Gnat and Hunter the Hawk project started.
To the best of my knowledge, it is the only postwar aircraft ever to come in ahead of schedule and under budget.
A great export success also.

[Spanner Monkey63]

There is only one "old" Queen of the Sky, The WESSEX loved and hated by all, rebuilt so often there was probably nothing original left on each airframe, and they were still sold onto new owners, well the last remaining few anyway.

Any other VFM, at the moment anything with a collective / Thrust Lever (for the chinook boys)

Rotary Wing the only way to Fly :ok:

[PhamousPhotographer]

HC2. 1962 - 2003. No contest!!:D

[Phileas Fogg]

Surely there can only be one manufacturer in the running:

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/3/3/7/1155733.jpg

[BROADSWORDCALLING]

All worthy contenders I'm sure

Anybody considered the WESSEX?

Tough old bird, in service with the RAF and Navy for over 40 years.

SAR and SH and she played a vital role in the "bog" throughout all the troubles.

And yes, she was a joy to fly!!

[barnstormer1968]

Phileas

What a stunning photo that is.............
And even better when I saw the third aircraft nose (which I didn't see for over a minute:uhoh:)

[PumpCockMixMags]

Dominie - Sep 1965 to Jan 2011
45 Years - A vast amount of that at low level, No losses and a squillion flying hours and still going strong at the end.

[reynoldsno1]

The Beaufighter has always been a favourite if mine - did what it said it did on the can marked "One Mean Mf***er"

[BEagle]

Perhaps it was one of the humble, unsung heroes which provided years of sterling support....

...the simple, cheap-as-chips Jet Provost. Trained thousands of RAF pilots, back in the days when the RAF could afford proper flying training.

Certainly not some 'orrible clattering 'elicopter which doesn't really fly - but is merely repelled from the Earth by its own ugliness...:hmm:

[forget]

The question was - what's the best aircraft that's ever been in service - op usefulness, value vs cost, longevity, upgrades etc.

BEagle has a very good point. Jet Provost. Be interesting to know overall service fleet hours for different aircraft types.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Why only relatively modern types?


Because they tend to stay in service so much longer?

But if we're delving into ancient history, how about another Avro product, the Anson? Not exciting or glamorous, but 32 years in RAF service, Bomber Command (RIP:{), Coastal Command (RIP:{), Training Command, over 11,000 built (mostly at Woodford RIP:{) in nearly 20 versions...

[SRENNAPS]

The de Havilland Mosquito,

Made of wood, truly a jack of all trades and has inspired potential young airmen (and women) after they watched the film 633 Sqn for generations…….fantastic!

[Phileas Fogg]

Even the Avro Andover :)

Whatever type it has to be an Avro, who cares about bean counters, it was the Lanc that was the premier bomber of WWII, the Shackleton speaks for itself in it's primary bomber role and then, when even in those days Macaroni were phucking up the Nimrod, it continued, and continued, and continued in the AEW role, the Vulcan speaks for itself, the Anson, another fantastic aircraft, even the Andover was selected for HM 'Queens Flight'.

Talk about JP's, Dominies, helichopters, C-130's, ex civil airliners etc, have any played a significant role in saving Europe, the World, from speaking German or Japanese and/or have they actually played a significant role in saving our shores?

If only there were manufacturers like A.V. Roe & Co. Ltd around in this day and age, aviation might remain a little more interesting!

[ShyTorque]

On a straight value for money basis, I think the Slingsby T-31 glider must be considered somewhere in the equation. Many future RAF pilots were inspired by flying training in this aircraft.

[minigundiplomat]

Certainly not some 'orrible clattering 'elicopter which doesn't really fly - but is merely repelled from the Earth by its own ugliness...http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif


Time for your bath Beagle, your armchair smells of wee. Don't forget your pills because it's the weekly trip to the library tommorrow. You know how you enjoy the library.

[green granite]

In 1940 the Spitfire cost £5000 ish, that translates into today's value of around £400,000 - £500,000s, apart from speed, what can the Modern £30million Typhoon do better? :E

[mr fish]

if purely on a value for money level, i'd like to nominate coastal command
B24's.

70+ u boats sunk during the battle of the atlantic!!


although i must confess to not knowing how many of these sinkings were purely RAF:O


P.S, anyone have an idea what the unit cost would have been WITHOUT the benefit of lend lease??

[chiglet]

Avro504 series 1913-mid '30s [and still flying] trained umteen pilots and bombed the "Hun" [sic] on the 21st Nov 1914. Deserves an honourable mention....

[minigundiplomat]

or maybe you could join him for a spot of euthanasia tomorrow?

:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok: :ok:

[XV277]

Harvard? First entered service in 1938, still serving today?

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

I would second chiglet, assuming he means the 504. Regrettably, I can find no record of the unit cost. It didn't seem to matter in those days.

I do know that around 1947, my dad bought a 504 descendent, a Cadet, for £5. He gave the aeroplane to the ATC, and I've got the airscrew.

For value, I suppose we might be thinking Mosquito. I would have said Lancaster but range, bomb load, suvivability aganst unit cost?

It's one of those my dads harder than your dad arguments really.

[astir 8]

The Air Cadets T21 Sedberg gliders - bought in early 1950's for £750 each. Sold in 1984 for £750 each!!

About 30 000 launches per glider, OK only about 2 000 hours flown per airframe at 4 minute circuits but value for money in terms of big grins on Cadet's faces? :ok::ok:

[johnfairr]

Phileas, I seem to recall that Hawker Siddeley built the Andover (HS 780) . . . ;)

[just another jocky]

I don't really care if this is true or not, but I recall hearing that the Saudi GR1 order had effectively paid for the RAF's GR1's, therefore there can be no argument...the best "value" (cos it cost us nothing) must be the Tornado GR1/4 - 20 years of continuous operations with an outstanding record! :ok:

<runs for cover.gif>

[T-21]

Shame nobody has mentioned the Vickers Varsity 1951 to c.1975 a very good navigation trainer .

[Yellow Sun]

Shame nobody has mentioned the Vickers Varsity 1951 to c.1975 a very good navigation trainer .

Whilst I have a lot of affection for the "Superpig" as both a pilot and nav' training aircraft it doesn't have the almost universal application of the Jet Provost. Over a long period every pilot and a great many navs learned the basics of their trade on the JP. It was very hard to break in spite of a lot of people trying very hard! So, my vote has goes to Huntings little jet.

YS

[bobward]

This thread prompts me to ask this:
Can anyone name an RAF aircraft that was:
On time
On budget
Worked as advertised on arrival in service

Let me state here that
(a) I'm not a troll / reporter / other person of low repute;
(b) Altough I'm a civvie,I've done 35+ years as a VRT officer, gentleman, CI

I would really like to hear your views on this.

Regards
:hmm:

[dakkg651]

bobward.

We are back to the Chippie again!

Must have been lots of mid 30s expansion plan aircraft which met your criteria. Hampden, Wellington, Blemheim, Hurricane perhaps?

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

johnfairr. The AVRO 748 (Andover 1) and 780 (748MF and Andover 2) did indeed acquire the HS prefix after Hawker Siddeley took central control of all the Group's aircraft companies. The "rationalisation" that Sir Fred H-P became so animated over. The designs were most certainly AVRO, though, from the drawing boards of Chadderton and, to a lesser extent, Woodford.

http://aviationancestry.com/Aircraft/Avro/Avro-Avro748-1961-1.jpg

Regarding value, the best reference to unit costs was;
avro | 1960 | 2661 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1960/1960%20-%202661.html)


three Avro 748 Series 2s have been ordered by Aden Airways. Basic price: Avro 748 Series 1, £176,000; Avro 748 Series 2, £196,000.

[billynospares]

There are still 2 Andovers wearing roundels operating out of Boscombe so must be in with a shout :ok:

[Dengue_Dude]

That's funny, I could have sworn that the Varsity was used to train Flight Engineers and Air Electronics Operators too.

That said, I don't think that it was the best value aircraft. That probably is a transport as they have lasted SO long, I would reckon the Hercules in all its guises probably tops out. Not at all glamorous, but was worth its salt.

The VC10 must be up amongst the contenders as it's never really let the RAF down, going from 'cutting edge' to 'museum piece' without scaring anyone (too much) or a hull loss.

As a spin off - I think it's a tribute to all those who looked after them, both on the ground and in the air.

Interesting thread!

[cazatou]

GBZ

The Avro Andover was an Ambulance Transport version of the Avro Aldershot Bomber and it entered Service in 1924. Only 3 (J7261-7263) entered service with the RAF.

[BEagle]

Flew them did you, Caz?

[T-21]

In terms of value the number of flying hours per unit must be taken into the equation high timers must be the C-130K,VC-10,DH Chipmunk,EE Canberra,HSA Dominie and I would like to know the average Varsity total flying time 10,000 hours per airframe ??

[cazatou]

BEagle

I flew the Aeromed Andover many times over a period of 24 years BUT it was the Hawker Siddeley version!!

[Jig Peter]

Phileas Fogg's Post 22 reminded me of a good example of longevity and economy (of effort at least) - "THE" Avro wing, first seen on the Manchester and developed for the Lancaster, York, Lincoln, Tudor, Shackleton and Argosy, with respectively Vultures, Merlins, Hercules, (IIRC), Griffons and Darts for power ...
How's that for versatility?*



*Sorry for "slight" thread drift ...

[foldingwings]

Given my history and record on PPRuNe, it would be wrong of me not to promote the RAF's Buccaneers here.

Procured as a stop gap into service in 1969 and departed 25 years later in 1994: called up latterly to close the air campaign in Op GRANBY (1991); stole the show in Op PULSATOR (1983); and proved to the aggressor that to attempt to retake the FI post Op CORPORATE (1982) would be foolhardy! Also, waxed most of the US opposing players on many a RED FLAG!:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Foldie:ok:

[minigundiplomat]

Procured as a stop gap into service in 1969 and departed 25 years later in 1994: called up latterly to close the air campaign in Op GRANBY (1991); stole the show in Op PULSATOR (1983); and proved to the aggressor that to attempt to retake the FI post Op CORPORATE (1982) would be foolhardy! Also, waxed most of the US opposing players on many a RED FLAG!


Didn't they get pressed into service to mark the targets for the 'more up to date' aircraft in 1991?

[Phileas Fogg]

cazatou,

You mean you only flew the HS variant of Andover and not, as it subsequently became tagged, the BAe variant?

They can call a Harrier a BAe but it's still a Hawker Kestrel, they can call a Nimrod an HS, or BAe, but it's parents are De Havilland, in it's day the Gnat was HS tagged but is subsequently accepted as being a Folland aircraft and, likewise, the 748 is listed as being an Avro aircraft.

[Kengineer-130]

I'm saying the C-130k, has multiple uses, can land anywhere with a half reasonable surface/strip, great shortfield performance, and even lets you go for a wee over France. Has served the RAF well since 1967, is still going today and looked after me for 11 years! I am biased though :} :ok:

[BEagle]

...and even lets you go for a wee over France.

If only you would remember to leave the flight deck first....:hmm:

[FL575]

I suspect that the answer to this question is obvious, really. I can name not only the type and mark, but the actual airframe number as well.

Put it this way, for the Lancaster (the last one built in 1946, I think) to be more worthy than my selection, it would have had to have been one of the RAF’s operational bomber aircraft in 1994. That would put it alongside the Tornado GR4, and it would have outlasted the Buccaneer by a couple of months.

Again, for the Spitfire to be chosen (as the last one was built in 1948), it would have had to have been in operational service as a fighter in 1996, therefore it would have outlasted the mighty Phantom. So in Red Flag exercises, the Spitfire could have been up against the F15s & F16s, for example.

So my selection is:

CANBERRA PR9 XH131

Built in 1958 and never out of operational service in 48 years and on operations in Afghanistan until a few weeks before its disposal by the RAF in the summer of 2006.

[Dan Winterland]

A couple of people have mentioned V bombers. I would like to agree having flown them, but they were such a massive drain on the UK's resources and because they were never used for their intended role, their value is hard to quantify. Or perhaps because they weren't used, their value is immeausurable!

I have to agree with those who mention the Air Cadet Gliders and the Chipmunk. I was instructing at the EFTS in the early nineties. We had a Chippy which had been in continuous service since 1949. I think HM Government got their money's worth from that aircraft.

But it's an individual airframe, Chinook ZA718 must be in the running for giving the best value. The famous Bravo November of the Falklands campaign, and others - and now preserved at Hendon.

[Evalu8ter]

Dan,
Afraid 718 isn't at Hendon - though heaven knows she's more deserving than other airframes in the museum. As an individual aircraft I think 3 DFCs in 3 different campaigns (Falklands, Gulf 2 and Afg) as well as being flown into a lake (Falklands) and shot up (Afg) qualifies the old girl for a dignified retirement. The facsimilie at Hendon is a composite of real and manufactured parts with, IIRC, completely the wrong cockpit donated by Rockwell Collins (no doubt hoping to pressage a future cockpit decision in their favour...which didn't work!!).

Though a Chinook mate myself, I'd find it very hard to argue purely on a value for money basis against the Canberra PR9, JP or Chipmunk.

[cazatou]

Phileas Fogg

The Aircrew Manuals for both C Mk1 and CC Mk 2 were clearly labelled Hawker Siddeley Andover. However, I must confess that my log books only show a total of 4660 hrs on Andovers.

PS The entry for Aircraft Type on a Flight Plan was HS74

[ian16th]

Vickers Varsity 1951 to c.1975 a very good navigation trainer ....and the easiest a/c to work on that I came across!

You could walk up to and get at everything without being a contortionist. :ok:

The servicing hours v flying hours must have been good for its time.

[Lima Juliet]

In modern times it must be the Hawker Siddeley (later BAe) Hawk. First flight 1974, nearly 1000 sold worldwide to 18 countries and the Hawk T2s we've just bought are expected to be still flying in 2035+!!!

That will be over 61 years of RAF service and a great British export success. Probably our last 'great aircraft marque' as I don't see anything after it getting anywhere near.

"Over 900 Hawk aircraft are in operational service with or have been ordered by 18 customers world-wide, and over 2.5 million flying hours have been logged on the type." - BAES website

LJ :ok:

[jindabyne]

I go with Diablo - Hunter

1951-2011 (60 years non-continuous RAF)
1972 built
19 Air Forces
Action in 10 conflicts (4 RAF)

No contest!:cool:

[foldingwings]

mgd,

Didn't they get pressed into service to mark the targets for the 'more up to date' aircraft in 1991?

Nope!

They pressed themselves into service, persuaded Strike Command to deploy them to provide Pavespike support for the GR1s and, once in theatre and after some very successful 'support' missions, convinced the powers that be that the GR1s would be better employed elsewhere whilst the Buccs carried on self-designating targets for their own delivered LGBs.

Buccaneer XX901 famously is one of the only recent RAF bombers to be entitled to have an aircraft target depicted underneath its canopy after it successfully identified, targeted and destroyed an Iraqi Cub with a PW2!

Take a look here: IMG_4258 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/martinneedham/5087865914/in/pool-1352613@N24#/photos/martinneedham/5087865914/in/pool-1352613@N24/lightbox/)

You might have to zoom in to see the Cub amongst all the other kills!

Foldie:ok:

[larssnowpharter]

Despite numerous attempts to replace it over the years, the Avro Shackleton provided loyal and faithful service in the RAF from 1951 to 1990.

ASW
MPA
AEW
SAR
Transport

Involved in many different conflicts or peace keeping operations since Suez.

So, a vote for the Shack.

[Agaricus bisporus]

I go with Hurricane, without which we would not be conducting this discussion.
Tiger-Moth as the primary trainer of those years, reason ditto, and for reasons of long and unimpeachable service, Chipmunk.
More recently, the Hawk for reasons explained elsewhere.
Hunter and Canberra, possibly, if only for numbers in service over a long period.
Sedbergh for sheer financial value.
Strangely missing from the list is the Dakota. Why?
TSR2 for reminding us that politicians are utter tossers. Never will that be bettered.
Two candidates, and for the same specific reason, Catalina and Swordfish, without which the Battle of the Atlantic, and especially the destruction of the Bismark would have changed the course of history.

[H Peacock]

So my selection is:

CANBERRA PR9 XH131

Built in 1958 and never out of operational service in 48 years and on operations in Afghanistan until a few weeks before its disposal by the RAF in the summer of 2006.

Agreed. It just has to be the Canberra (PR9)

:D

[althenick]

Got to be the Bucc & Toom, The procurement of these Fine Airframes did not come from the RAF Budget, Both were built to last.

[Art Field]

Dan W.

You have your doubts about the V's but what about the Victor. It outlasted the other two, was not used but was at least as much a deterrent in its bomber days as the Avro Air Display Aircraft, had its PR version and especialy did stirling work as a Tanker.

[Rory57]

P.S, anyone have an idea what the unit cost (of a B24 Liberator) would have been WITHOUT the benefit of lend lease??

Mr. Fish

According to the USAF museum, A B24 cost $336,000. And the USA made around 18,000 of them. No wonder they could give us a few, no wonder the allies won.



Factsheets : Consolidated B-24D Liberator (http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=494)

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Swordfish

...never served with the RAF


without which the Battle of the Atlantic, and especially the destruction of the Bismark would have changed the course of history.


Do elaborate...

[minigundiplomat]

Humour them!

[PingDit]

Had to be the Nimrod MR I/II, if only from a capability point of view.

[just another jocky]

Buccaneer XX901 famously is one of the only recent RAF bombers to be entitled to have an aircraft target depicted underneath its canopy after it successfully identified, targeted and destroyed an Iraqi Cub with a PW2!



Foldie, not quite sure what you mean there (my bold) but just in case...an aircraft symbol was painted on the side of 'MiG Killer', a GR1 that was in the process of dispensing JP233 down a runway when a MiG was trying to take off.

The MiG lost!

I also recall a Pave-spike video (I may have a copy) of an IL76 being LGB'd. Don't know if that was ever 'claimed' by the Bucc fraternity.

[cazatou]

TOTD

Actually the Swordfish served with 119 Sqn and 202 Sqn as well as the Torpedo Development Unit at Gosport; all of which were RAF Units.

[xenolith]

30 years on constant operations (give or take).

[Tashengurt]

No one wading in for Sentinel then?

[Just This Once...]

No one wading in for Sentinel then?

Hmm... Best value for gaining an ATPL and type rating?

[dalek]

Sorry Jind, but Leon is correct. The Hunter was a great aircraft, but the Hawk will stay in service longer.
After 30 years or so the Hunter became a interesting toy.
At the 60 year point the Hawk will still be an Operational Trainer.
And the best low cost jet we have ever made.

[A2QFI]

Although there were not very many of them built (23 or 23) no PR9 was lost in RAF service, to my knowledge. One crashed during what seems to have been development flying by Short Bros, with the unfortunate death of the navigator.

I flew them in Cyprus from '61 to '64 and it was a very interesting first tour for me; perhaps not so for my 3rd tour navigator!

[TimL]

no PR9 was lost in RAF service, to my knowledge.

A friend of mine, Tony Wade, was killed flying a PR9 at Luqa in about 1970, and I seem to remember that there'd been another PR9 loss shortly before that.

-- Tim L

[A2QFI]

TimL, please check PMs. I defer to your superior knowledge. I left the PR9 in 1964 and may not have heard of the events of which you have personal knowledge, and which are clearly correct.

[bast0n]

It has to be the Wessex V/2 - tough as nuts and needing a fairly unsophisticted crew - believe me!

Also the only helicopter ever to down a modern jet fighter........and win.........:)

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/tallbronzedgod/jsf_Wx5_Rocketing.jpg

[iRaven]

An RAF Canberra PR7 was shot down over the Bekaa Valley in 1956 by a Syrian Meteor:

During the build up to the Suez crisis, an RAF Canberra PR7 WH799 flown by Flt Lt B L Hunter, along with his Navigator Flg Off. R Urquhart-Pullen and Flt Lt A C Small, a pilot who went along to watch the Canberra's tail using the astro-navigation periscope, took off from Akrotiri in Cyprus for a photo-reconnaissance sortie over Syria. The purpose of the sortie was to monitor an apparent build up of Soviet supplied combat aircraft in Syria. Unfortunately, WH799 was shot down over Syria by two Meteor F.8s flown by Syrian AF pilots al-Garudry and al-Assasa, the latter being the CO of the sole SAF Meteor squadron. Sadly, the navigator Flying Officer Urquhart-Pullen was killed attempting to bale out, but Flight Lieutenants Hunter and Small ejected and after treatment in Beirut Military Hospital were later repatriated.
The ground controlled interception of the Canberra was directed by Major Moukabri of the Syrian AF
using an interception plan devised by Squadron Leader Tahir Zaki of the Egyptian AF who was serving as air attache at the Egyptian embassy in Damascus at the time.

If you're looking for a PR9 accident then look at this: ASN Aircraft accident 11-OCT-1958 English Electric Canberra PR.9 XH129 (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=75303)

It's about a PR9 loss on 11 Oct 1958. On 18 Jan 67 the RAF Cat 4'd a PR9 as it went off the runway at Luqa into a barrier followed by the loss of XH130 (PR.9 (13Sqn) - 25 Mar 69. Crashed at Hal Far on approach to Luqa) and XH164 (PR.9 (13Sqn) - 7 Jan 69. Crashed on appraoch to Luqa). Also the Chileans lost a PR9 in 1983.

iRaven

[pstamp]

As an ex Brough person I agree that either the Buccaneer or Hawk should be chosen!

[Dominoe]

A2QFI

On 3rd May 1977 a 39 Sqn Canberra (PR9) returning to its base at RAF Wyton crashed two miles short of the runway into a housing estate at Oxmoor in Huntingdon.

XH 137 Flt Lt (Jim ?) Armitage and Flt Lt (Laurie ?) Hayes. Apologies if spelt incorrectly.

It was my very first day on my very first Sqn in the RAF. They are buried in the cemetry at Houghton village.

A sad time.

[bast0n]

Hang on chaps!

How does being shot down/crashed make the aircraft the best value...............? Scrap perhaps.................?

[moggiee]

It's hard to see past the Hawk as "best value for money". They seem to have been around forever and looks like they will have many more years ahead of them (let's face it, where would the MOD get the money to replace them?).

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

cazatou,

My apologies - thanks for the information. Though I don't think that serving with 2 sqns and a trials unit really seals victory for the Stringbag!

xenolith

Puma - hmmm...

[jindabyne]

dalek,

With an affinity to both, I will concede!!

[NutLoose]

Mine would be the Wessex....just went on and on and built like the proverbial.

VC10........ never lost one and still going strong.

Hunter

Hawk


One I disagree with was the Hawker Siddeley Andover, this was an expensive aircraft involving a lot of modifications to bring it into service, the HP Herald actually beat it hands down in both costs, operational useage and would of had a rear ramp AKA herc without the need to squat down, but the Government of the day were determined to see Handley Page out of business so went with the far inferior Andover to see him off.

bristol siddeley | armstrong whitworth | 1961 | 1269 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1961/1961%20-%201269.html)

[Heathrow Harry]

Post war-

Hunter
Canberra
Hawk
Buccaneer

[foldingwings]

jaj,

I also recall a Pave-spike video (I may have a copy) of an IL76 being LGB'd. Don't know if that was ever 'claimed' by the Bucc fraternity.

That's the very one! Was it an IL76, I thought it was a Cub but the video, which I too have, is not very clear.

So we are both right.

one of the only recent RAF bombers

Bucc XX901 kills a 'transport' and JP233 kills a Mig!

Still trying to work out which fg off you were on 17!

Foldie:ok:

[Neptunus Rex]

Best Value...

It has to be the De Havilland Mosquito.
Designed and built as a privately funded project, then presented to the RAF Test Pilots as the finished article. Were they impressed!

Went on to be:

Day Fighter
Night Fighter
Unarmed Bomber
Fighter/Bomber
Ground Attack
Photo Recce
Maritime Strike
Trainer
Airliner (Imperial Airways low-level to Stockholm with Pax/Diplomatic Mail)
Pathfinder
Precision Low-Level Bomber eg Amiens Jail Bust
Target Tower

Truly the quintessential MRCA, plus mostly made of wood, simply the best value.

[ghostie]

I'll give it a go. How about a squadron of F4-J's after the Falklands?

Taken out of the desert, given a wash and hoover. Were they good value for money? (Crouches down and prepares for incoming)

[Padhist]

I have already ducked below my desk top...But how about the Barracuda for sheer elegance, or have you never seen one.

[Pontius Navigator]

On reflection, the Vulcan. Used once in anger and used to stop a war for 25 years.

[Clockwork Mouse]

Chipmunk. Cost sixpence, went on for ever, trained every aviator worth his salt, so robust and simple that even a pongo could fly it. No contest.

Except the Mossie of course. Could be built by a pre-1960s school boy, completely bio-degradeable and could do everything and then some. A looker too.

[Pontius Navigator]

Chipmunk. Cost sixpence, went on for ever, trained every aviator worth his salt, so robust and simple that even a pongo could fly it. No contest.

Except the Mossie of course. Could be built by a pre-1960s school boy, completely bio-degradeable and could do everything and then some. A looker too.

Pongo yes, PC Plod no.

I remember the incident report when PC Plod put his helmet through the canopy. Now It may not have been a bobbies helmet buy it made a great cartoon.

[xenolith]

You are absolutly right.............. Stuff the Wessex it has to be the Puma!

[Mike7777777]

value vs costValue: putting U-boats down, which doesn't necessarily mean sinking them. Nothing else even gets close in terms of historical importance, vital part in turning the tide against the U-boats, enabling build up to D-Day, cost then becomes almost immaterial when measured against value. As per previous poster: B24 (with Bulloch)? Leigh Light Wellington (U-boat SURPRISE!)? Cat?

I'm sure the little training aircraft and the helicopters are very useful ;)

[Finningley Boy]

Javelin anyone? Or have I lept nto the wrong thread!?!?!?:O

FB:)

[ShyTorque]

You are absolutly right.............. Stuff the Wessex it has to be the Puma!

Puma HC1?

Surely not. Folk have been saying they are unsuitable for military service and will therefore never last the pace....

....... since 1971. They were 'just about to be replaced' in 1979. And again in the mid 1980s. And in the 1990s....and the 2000s? 2010s...?

As they enter their fifth decade of service, they are the Cliff Richard of SH, lol! ;)

[NutLoose]

As they enter their fifth decade of service, they are the Cliff Richard of SH, lol! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

All plastic and superficial?

[H Peacock]

The Wessex was built like a brick s..t house, so you could never really do a heavy landing(?). The Puma could be a pig and would bite if not respected, that said, it could do far more than the ole Wessex at almost twice the speed.

And if you then add 'fun' into the equation, then ....

:D

[ShyTorque]

Having flown both Wessex 5 (Navy version) and Puma HC1, both have their own plusses and minuses.

In NI the bomb disposal men had an underslung load (trailer) that the Wessex 2 couldn't lift so it used to go under a Puma.

SH didn't go into certain 'hot' areas without mutual support from another helicopter. The convoluted way that SH was tasked meant that the other heli might be a Wessex from another local job. If so, the trick was to fly the USL at a high cruise speed, to get the following Wessex pilot to call "Buster" over the RT (= I can't keep up). :E

Having said that, if I had to crash, I'd rather have been in a Wessex as the pilot sits further from the scene of the accident.

Shame the RAF never bought the "Super Wessex" i.e. Blackhawk with RTM engines.

[As for the Puma biting, yes it does have certain bad habits. That's why Pumas demanded a better standard of pilot].

[maxburner]

Phantom - for its good looks if nothing else!

[lsh]

DH9A

lsh
:E

[chiglet]

DH9A


Unlucky 13 [years in service]

[Fareastdriver]

The Wessex was built like a brick s..t house, so you could never really do a heavy landing(?).

Nor can you in a Super Puma; I've tried a few times. That is because it has the single wheel 5 m/s naval undercarriage which, amazingly, they are not fitting to the Puma HC2.

[Audax]

Gentlemen, gentlemen, I feel you're missing the point. Surely the best value for money aircraft is the one that puts more smiles on your face per flying hour. For that there is only 1 contender:-

I give you the incomparable Lightning

[Finningley Boy]

Phantom - for its good looks if nothing else!


And yet the Phantom along with the Buccaneer were regarded as the result of a who can build the ugliest aircraft competition between the Americans and us.:}

FB:)

[maxburner]

Finningley Boy- beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

[Finningley Boy]

Actually, I have to admit Max, the Phantom like Lightning has a certain thing about it! Rather like some bird who isn't quite a catwalk model like the Mirage III but there is a certainly something going on there!:E

FB:)

[johnfairr]

Finningley Boy, if you'd ever been airborne in an F4 or a Buccaneer, you might take a different view from your post # 116 . . . . :cool:

Most fun you can have with your clothes on!!!:ok::ok::ok:

[Unixman]

Deep breath here....

May I propose the AVRO 504?

First flew in 1913, production finished almost 20 years later. Must have been dirt cheap but was the primary RAF trainer from the end of WW1 until (Wiki) replaced by the Avro Tutor in 1933.

Must have been superb value for money ....


And I see someone has already mentioned it ....

[Finningley Boy]

Johnfairr,

I'm afraid the only time I had to fly a Phantom was crashing the simulator at Coningsby in Ocotber 1978. I shouldn't have been allowed anywhere near it. I was a scopie you know. But I'll bow to your's and Max's knowledge and experience. I do think they both are more business like than the Tonka or Jaguar. :ok:

Better standby to address comments from that crowd now.:uhoh:

FB:)

[howiehowie93]

I'm afraid the only time I had to fly a Phantom was crashing the simulator at Coningsby in Ocotber 1978.

I did the same to the AEW Nimrod simulator at Waddo in the mid 80's trying to land it on the Ark Royal. I only went up there from 5 Hanger on night shift to do some ground running practice.

Oh the joys of being a Sootie !! :ok:

Rearguards
H

[Josh349]

A list of my favourites (In random order)

De Havilland Mosquito

Top speed: 378mph
Entered service: 1941
Retired: 1950
Number built: 7,781
Range: 1,905miles
Ceiling: 28,000ft
Rating: 6


De Havilland Tiger moth

Top speed: 108mph
Entered service: 1932
Retired: 1959
Number built: 8,868
Range: 285miles
Ceiling: 13,000ft
Rating: 5







English Electric Canberra

Top speed: 603mph
Entered service: 1951
Retired: 2006
Number built: 949
Range: 1174 miles
Ceiling: 70,310ft
Rating: 8


Blackburn Buccaneer


Top speed: 667mph
Entered service: 1962
Retired: 1994
Number built: n/a
Range: 2,300 miles
Ceiling: 40,000ft
Rating: 7


Hawker Hunter

Top speed: 727mph
Entered service: 1954
Retired: 1993
Number built: 1,972
Range: 1,900 miles
Ceiling: 50,000ft
Rating: 6


Boeing Chinook

Top speed: 183mph
Entered service: 1980
Retired: ACTIVE
Number built: 58 (Uk version)
Range: n/a
Ceiling: 18,500ft
Rating: 7

C130 Hercules

Top speed: 366mph
Entered service: 1957
Retired: ACTIVE
Number built: n/a
Range: 2,360 miles
Ceiling: 33,000
Rating: 7







Avro Vulcan

Top speed: 607mph
Entered service: 1956
Retired: 1984
Number built: 136
Range: 2,607 miles
Ceiling: 55,000ft
Rating: 5


Bristol F.2 Fighter

Top speed: 123mph
Entered service: 1916
Retired: 1932
Number built: 5,329
Range: 369 miles
Ceiling: 18,000ft
Rating: 7


F4 Phantom

Top speed: 1,472mph
Entered service: 1969
Retired: 1985
Number built: n/a
Range: 1,615 miles
Ceiling: 60,000ft
Rating: 6

Nimrod

Top speed: 575mph
Entered service: 1969
Retired: 2011
Number built: 51
Range: 5,755 miles
Ceiling: 44,000ft
Rating: 9


Spitfire

Top speed: 378mph
Entered service: 1938
Retired: 1954
Number built: 20,351
Range: 1,140 miles
Ceiling: 35,000ft
Rating: 10







Hawker Hurricane

Top speed: 340mph
Entered service: 1937
Retired: 1945
Number built: 14,533
Range: 600 miles
Ceiling: 36,000ft
Rating: 9


Avro Lancaster

Top speed: 280mph
Entered service: 1942
Retired: n/a
Number built: 7,377
Range: 3,400 miles
Ceiling: 23,500ft
Rating: 8


Harrier Jump jet

Top speed: 735mph
Entered service:1969
Retired: 2010
Number built: 1050 (estimate)
Range: 2,000 miles
Ceiling: 51,000ft
Rating: 9


Eurofighter Typhoon

Top speed: 1,550mph
Entered service: 2003
Retired: ACTIVE
Number built: 471
Range: 2,350 miles
Ceiling: 64,990ft
Rating: 7










English Electric Lightning

Top speed: 1,300mph
Entered service: 1959
Retired: 1988
Number built: 337
Range: 1,270
Ceiling: 70,000ft
Rating: 7







Sopwith Camel

Top speed: 115mph
Entered service: 1917
Retired: n/a
Number built: 5,490
Range: 300 miles
Ceiling: 21,000ft
Rating: 9


AgustaWestland Apache

Top speed: 227mph
Entered service: 2004
Retired: ACTIVE
Number built: 67
Range: 1,121 miles
Ceiling: 21,000ft
Rating: 7


BAC TSR 2

Top speed: 1300mph
Entered service: n/a
Retired: n/a
Number built: 10
Range: 2,880 miles
Ceiling: 50,000ft
Rating: 8

S.E.5

Top speed: 138mph
Entered service: 1917
Retired: n/a
Number built: 5,205
Range: 300 miles
Ceiling: 17,000ft
Rating: 7


Hawker Typhoon

Top speed: 412mph
Entered service: 1941
Retired: 1945
Number built: 3,317
Range: 510 miles
Ceiling: 35,200ft
Rating: 6








Hawk

Top speed: 638mph
Entered service: 1976
Retired: ACTIVE
Number built: 900+
Range: 1565 miles
Ceiling: 44,500ft
Rating: 6


Tornado

Top speed: 921mph/mach2.2
Entered service: 1979
Retired: ACTIVE
Number built: 992
Range: 2,417 miles
Ceiling: 50,000ft
Rating: 7


Vickers VC10

Top speed: 580mph
Entered service: 1964
Retired: ACTIVE
Number built: 54
Range: 5,850miles
Ceiling: 43,000ft
Rating: 7


Jaguar

Top speed: 1,056mph
Entered service: 1973
Retired: 2007
Number built: 543
Range: 2,190 miles
Ceiling: 45,900ft
Rating: 6


Westland Wessex

Top speed: 133mph
Entered service: 1961
Retired: 2003
Number built: 356
Range: 480 miles
Ceiling: 10,000ft
Rating: 6


Dominie

Top speed: 522mph
Entered service: 1965
Retired: 2011
Number built: 1,000+
Range: 1,796 miles
Ceiling: 41,000ft
Rating: 6


Bristol Beaufighter

Top speed: 320mph
Entered service: 1940
Retired: 1950
Number built: 5,928
Range: 1,750miles
Ceiling: 19,000ft
Rating: 7


Jet Provost

Top speed: 440mph
Entered service: 1955
Retired: 1993
Number built: 741
Range: 900 miles
Ceiling: 36,750ft
Rating: 5


Avro Shackleton

Top speed: 300mph
Entered service: 1951
Retired: 1990
Number built: 185
Range: 2,250miles
Ceiling: 20,200ft
Rating: 5





Handley Page Victor

Top speed: 627mph
Entered service: 1958
Retired: 1993
Number built: 86
Range: 6,000 miles
Ceiling: 56,000ft
Rating: 6

[Pontius Navigator]

Josh, impressive bit of cut 'n paste but mostly rubbish.

Hunter range 1900 miles Canberra 1174! The Canberra could do transatlantic or Cyprus in one hop. The Hunter would be breathing fumes long before that.

The Buccaneer 2300 and the Tonka 2417 - you must be joking. The Bucc had the legs on the Tonka any day.

Vulcan 2607 TSR2 2880 - really?

Lancaster 3400 miles - phew - about 17 hours - a bit long methinks

Don't believe everything you read in wikipedia et al. And in an aviation forum we use Nautical Miles.

[jamesdevice]

best value aircraft the RAF ever had? Simple - the Phantom FG1 (F4-K)
Why? Because the RAF got them for free after the RN had paid for them

[Lightning Mate]

English Electric Lightning

Top speed: 1,300mph
Range: 1,270
Ceiling: 70,000ft

Jaguar

Top speed: 1,056mph
Range: 2,190 miles
Ceiling: 45,900ft




Josh, impressive bit of cut 'n paste but mostly rubbish.

:D:D
After years of flying both, I find those figures interesting to say the least!!!

Beware the Internet...............

[Halton Brat]

Surely the Wiggins Aerodyne should figure here (both land-based & Naval versions)?

[airborne_artist]

Boeing Chinook

Top speed: 183mph
Entered service: 1980
Retired: ACTIVE
Number built: 58 (Uk version)
Range: n/a
Ceiling: 18,500ft
Rating: 7

AgustaWestland Apache

Top speed: 227mph
Entered service: 2004
Retired: ACTIVE
Number built: 67
Range: 1,121 miles
Ceiling: 21,000ft
Rating: 7

Isn't Apache is slower than the Wokka S+L? ;)

[Willard Whyte]

Who's 'ratings' are those anyhoo?

And are those 'facts' and figures a cut'n'paste from a set of Top Trumps?

[jamesdevice]

Apache 227 mph?? Is that stripped out with Trevor Egginton flying it?

[Josh349]

I looked at all sorts of sites to get those stats and the ratings are given by me, i'm a bit of a rookie at aircraft so don't know much about them :P

Everything i did, i just copied and pasted from Microsoft word :)

[jamesdevice]

just because one aircraft may have hit those figures under one-off ideal test conditions doesn't mean those figures can be applied generally to an aircraft type Look at the Lightening. Is it really going to hit 70,000 feet in operational service fit? And if so, which version? And the range you give for it? Again - which version? Look at the Canberra. You're quoting 70,000 feet for that. Maybe for a PR9 on a good day, but for the rest of the fleet? I don't think so. Take the Buccaneer. That was a LOW LEVEL attack aircraft. It may have been technically capable of getting to 40,000 feet, but it wouldn't be much use up there and I'll bet its performance at height would have been awful Simple motto. Don't believe all you read on the web, understand that what may be true is virtually never universally applicable, and when you do post, EXPLAIN what it is you are posting

[Halton Brat]

Josh, my dear boy, you must surely understand by now that this forum is frequented by the Old & Bold, some of whom took the chocks out for Messrs Wright Brothers.

Whilst I admire your panache & bravado at sticking your head out of the trench in such an enthusiastic manner, this type of rash splurging will cause a ripple-launch of Meat-Seeking Missiles in your direction. However, be not discouraged or dismayed; the entertainment value is jolly good :D

HB

[PPRuNeUser0139]

HB
Beautifully put.. and much more effective than invective!;)
sv

[airborne_artist]

some of whom took the chocks out for Messrs Wright Brothers

Not quite. My dad did take his 1923 Rolls-Royce with him in HMS Ark Royal in 1955 :E

[Halton Brat]

How I envy your paternal provenance; on my Birth Certificate, under 'Name of Father', it says 'Some Soldiers'...............:sad:

HB

[jamesdevice]

good job "Top Gear" wasn't on the telly then,,,, it it had been that roller would have got shot over the bow

[airborne_artist]

Massive thread drift, but how's this for a lasting memorial to a man whose bravery was not (as far as I know) ever seriously tested, but who served his country for thirty-five years:

Lord Bank - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Bank)

[hanoijane]

Not quite. My dad did take his 1923 Rolls-Royce with him in HMS Ark Royal in 1955

Pffft, that's nothing. Back in the early 70's my father had his Traction Avant towed around Phnom Penh by an elephant. Just because he could.

[Willard Whyte]

^ Dunno why but that's got me in stitches.

[jindabyne]

As was said - Hawk (but Hunter and Buccaneer close firsts :D)

[Justin Cyder-Belvoir]

Had a can of soup higher than that.

[Mythbuster20]

Interesting discussion - damned if I know how anyone could pick it. Below is a link to the Australian Army Aviation Association's website where the author poses a similar question, and I gather is equally puzzled as what to pick. They do mention the Hunter and Lancaster among the greats though.


Fourays - The Australian Army Aviation Association Inc (http://www.fourays.org/features_2005/great_combat_aircraft/great_combat.htm)

[Halton Brat]

When I saw the opening post on this thread from our esteemed ppruner 'Sangiovese', the opening line of which was "Sat in the pub last night with a mate", I just knew this would be a belter. Not disappointed.........:ok:

[Lightning Mate]

.....that this forum is frequented by the Old & Bold

"There are old pilots and bold pilots, but there are no old and bold pilots".

The Lightning performance has been thrashed out before on Prune, mostly by people who have never flown it. I shall not bore you further.

LM :)

[Halton Brat]

Lightning Mate

In my 1970's Gnat era at Valley, I recall that some of our baby jets deployed oop north to mix it with the Lightning force. The motivation for this jolly was that the Pesky Rooskies were developing tiny fighters which would be launched from a 'mother ship' in order to repel the attentions of Lord Trenchard's finest.

Do you recall this? Perhaps, like Samuel Taylor Coleridge & his epic poem 'Kubla Khan', this was a hallucination visited upon me by a narcotic substance at that time (normally Guinness, the Black Bile of Beelzebub).

HB

[Lightning Mate]

Morning HB. :)

I don't recall that. Mind you, I was a WIWOL between 1968 and 1973.

G-nat was nice though wunnit!

Looking at your profile methinks you have all the right attributes......:E

[Halton Brat]

Bloody Guinness again! If I didn't dream it, it would be in the '73-'78 era.

HB

[Lightning Mate]

Schhhh don't tell anyone....but in 1978 I converted to the Jaguar....

[BEagle]

Guinness? Bah - brackish Pope's piss!

I only say that because as a UAS student I decided to try Guinness for the first time at the Annual Dinner. After first having several G&Ts, lots of wine, a hip flask of Glenfiddich and a couple of pints of Worthington E.... Then came the Guinness - albeit briefly. From the ULAS bar to Trap 2 took a nervous 30 seconds, the Guinness lasted 31:ooh:!

The G-nat frolics were undoubtedly part of a 'Keltex' during a JMC ore somesuch, where the little Folland Pocket Rockets would lurk under a Canberra, before being 'launched' at one of HM's floating grey tin boxes (or perhaps not so little back then when we still had real carriers?). In a flurry of flags, Aldis lamps, whistles and lots of "D'ya hear there"s, the jolly jack tars would then attempt to engage the Gnats with some variety of ancient rocket or gun. By all accounts it was fine sport and a good excuse to wazz the Navy at lots of knots and not many feet. Unfortunately the Gnat wasn't overly blessed with fuel, so likely as not it was probably one run and then scoot for home.

On of my QFIs was an ex-'Vixen driver and had fun flying an approach on one carrier - and no, they didn't think he wanted to land, unlike the fabled Shacklebomber.

[andyy]

HB, there was a similar proposal here, involving Gnats & a Vulcan "mother ship"; the Gants were supposed to be a strike a/c with N weapons :uhoh: - Derek Wood's book, "Project Cancelled" refers.

[Pontius Navigator]

Andy, I don't have my book to hand but I thought the idea was the Gnat would form a fighter escort with the pilots planning on a Folland let down. Rather unBritish we thought but fair game for Les Frog with their planned one-way missions.

[Halton Brat]

Beags

On the rather distasteful subject of projectile vomiting, I was much impressed with the Throwing Up Sink in the Gutersloh Officer's Mess (former tenant: Hr H Goering). This most large, sturdy & Germanic of installations boasted an unobstructed outlet of such calibre that a rabbit could be dispatched via its' orifice. Each side of the sink, a vertical rail afforded the unfortunate imbiber a secure grip in order to reduce the rpm of his immediate environment, thereby facilitating accurate jettison of the toxins which were the cause of his malaise. Then, no doubt, back to the Bar!

Vorsprung durch Technic, as the Bavarians say :ok:

[Lightning Mate]

Throwing Up Sink

I wonder if it's still there......

[1.3VStall]

Popularly known in Lightning days as the "honkatorium". I well remember one WIWOL's dental plate becoming a projectile (after he had drunk the "Op Pot"), which vanished down the aforementioned orifice, and the subsequent attempts to salvage said object from the accrued detrius.

Ah, happy days....!

[Lightning Mate]

Happy days indeed mate. :ok::ok:

[andyy]

PN, page 135. Although I admit that I was of the same opinion as you, until I re-read the book.

[Pontius Navigator]

That would have been real Strangeglove stuff riding the bomb in to the target.

[Lyneham Lad]

In my 1970's Gnat era at Valley, I recall that some of our baby jets deployed oop north to mix it with the Lightning force. The motivation for this jolly was that the Pesky Rooskies were developing tiny fighters which would be launched from a 'mother ship' in order to repel the attentions of Lord Trenchard's finest.

Ah, dissimilar air combat! In either '75 or '76 I was SNCO i/c groundcrew for a short detachment to Coningsby in support of a small number of 4FTS Gnats. Not sure whether or not an F4 ever managed get a theoretical 'kill' (unlike the time spent a few years later in a German forest, map and compass in hand, trying to plot the positions of the wreckage of a Wildenrath Jag, with additional instructions to keep an eye open for certain 'unusual' bits'n'pieces).