2011: New Year's Honours for Service personnel and Defence civilian

[flynavysomerset]

Please find the link (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/HistoryAndHonour/2011NewYearsHonoursForServicePersonnelAndDefenceCivilians.ht m)to the 2011: New Year's Honours for Service personnel and Defence civilians

Happy New Year

FNS

[TheWizard]

The list is out. Nice to see some due recognition for some familiar names.
Congratulations to all those involved.
Ministry of Defence | Defence News | History and Honour | 2011: New Year's Honours for Service personnel and Defence civilians (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/HistoryAndHonour/2011NewYearsHonoursForServicePersonnelAndDefenceCivilians.ht m)

[Green Flash]

Full RAF list here (http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/NewYearsHonours2011.cfm)

[fabs]

Great to see one of mine on the list, well done mate well deserved, shame the hierarchy didn’t inform you before the list was published (I guess they don’t make Senior Officers like they used to).

Congratulations to all recipients.

[Navy_Adversary]

A Professor Porter from RCDM Birmingham has received a Knighthood for his service in helping severly wounded service personel on their return from Afghanistan etc
A Huge congratulations, after watching the flying hospital programme on TV a few weeks ago it is good to see that people who do this kind of work are honoured.

I was as much pleased to see who hadn't got a gong, I think the new goverment may be trying to make sure that gongs go to the right people rather than the new 'Celebrity Culture' which has cropped up in recent years.

[1771 DELETE]

As usual, it is extremely top heavy in senior officers, the RAF appears to be the worst culprit for patting each other on the back for someone else`s effort.

[alfred_the_great]

1771 - nominate many Junior Airmen or Cpls did you?

[Ascot 5999]

Alf

Very hard to get a nomination thro' the mill for cpls and below since the demise of the BEM. (I know, I've tried and never won). A daft move by John Major to get rid of it.

Also the order of award (which are severely rationed for the Services) STILL related to rank: (Usually) Sqn Ldrs & below: MBE; Wg Cdrs; OBE; Gp Capt Air Cdres: CBE; 2 * and above: what they can scrounge. At that level there is still a pecking order. KCB trumps the KBE etc.

Huge congrats to all who did that bit extra (and not just their job) to gain a national honour. It used to be that once 3* star rank was attained a "K" came with the rations.

About time this daft 6 monthly fest was binned for civil servants, sports "stars" and singers getting an award for just doing their job. Awards for bravery only. About time a woman won the VC, with more in combat it'll happen.

Rant selected off!

HNY by the way.

[Ascot 5999]

Moderator

Time of posts a bit suspect. What time zone? Not Zulu that's for sure.

[Melchett01]

Time of posts a bit suspect. What time zone? Not Zulu that's for sure.

Not really. They were openly available on the the RAF and MOD websites on 31 Dec.

[Tankertrashnav]

About time this daft 6 monthly fest was binned for civil servants, sports "stars" and singers getting an award for just doing their job. Awards for bravery only. About time a woman won the VC, with more in combat it'll happen.


I was impressed by an actress on the radio the other day who had turned down an honour for services to the theatre because she said acting was her job, for which she got paid, and didn't see why she should get a medal for it as well. Awards for bravery only is a bit harsh maybe - charity work is one field that deserves recognition. Re the Victoria Cross, looking at the amazing citations for the girls who have won the MC so far I think you are right, it's just a matter of time

[Two's in]

If you don't understand that the likelihood of an award is more a function of the written influencing skills of the nominator than the deeds of the nominee than you really haven't been paying attention. That said, why not let these individuals have their "moment", especially the usual smattering of lolipop ladies and cat wardens. Bravery awards are fully recognised under a different system to the New Years honours list so comparing the two is a specious exercise.

The apparent disproportion of Officers to Enlisted in these awards is also transparently obvious - if you are in a command position or position of ultimate responsibility you are more likely to be making the kinds of decisions that get you noticed and recognised. Of course it's the team that does the graft and executes the real work, but somebody somewhere takes the resposibility for that. If you don't understand this then somewhere along the way the principles of military leadership have passed you by.

It's nothing new of course, ever since I remember first reading these lists, X years ago, people have been complaining that Nobby from the MT got nothing, whereas that useless Officer in HQ got an MBE. I suspect that those who object so vociferously to Officers getting awards are all closet republicans anyway. When there's an Armed Forces Union we can all get an award and feel special, until then, those with the ultimate responsibility of command will probably continue to get the majority.

[Samuel]

It's nothing new of course, ever since I remember first reading these lists, X years ago, people have been complaining that Nobby from the MT got nothing, whereas that useless Officer in HQ got an MBE. I suspect that those who object so vociferously to Officers getting awards are all closet republicans anyway

Well...as I recall, being the Nobby in question, I made more effective decisions every day than the totally useless commissioned moron in charge. who, in over two years, never deigned to meet me, but did get a BEM I believe. Not being a closet republican, and one who has his commission parchment framed and on full display in my hall, I can't say I felt anything other than complete indifference to his award. He could clearly bend a lot lower than I could!

[Tankertrashnav]

the totally useless commissioned moron in charge. who, in over two years, never deigned to meet me, but did get a BEM I believe.


Not if he was commissioned, he didn't! Maybe an MBE though?

[Samuel]

Well he was [commissioned], a Flt Lt no less, and in two years of endorsing my annual assessments never actually got around to meeting me, and that was the stuff of an MBE, as you correctly pointed out! :ok:

[Piltdown Man]

Maybe someone should draw up a "bravery award" vs "rank" graph. You could also do a distance from Whitehall vs award graph and another plotting public financed staff vs private financed award. A pound vs a pinch if poo says that publicly paid, high status staff situated close to Whitehall are braver and more worthy of awards than anyone else.

PM

[Tankertrashnav]

PM I commented on another thread (can't remember the link) about a photo of some 4* admiral recently appointed, who apart from his KCB, Jubilee etc didnt have a gallantry/campaign medal of any description on display. I said at the time that things haven't changed since Gilbert said "stick close to your desks and never go to sea, and you all may be leaders of the Queen's navee"!

[Samuel]

There is little that is particularly "honourable" about a system that was demeaned by being allowed to be bought by certain individuals recognised more for their contribution to Party funds than anything else.

In New Zealand, PM Helen Clark gave such honours and awards the big heave-ho and instituted a new, national system of awards. It seemed to me to be a good move given that the UK had discarded the old Dominions of NZ and Australia in 1975 in favour of Europe, making such awards as MBE etc utterly pointless. The current government, however, has reinstated knighthoods, so I'm looking to the future with some trepidation!

[PPRuNe Pop]

Ascot5999.

Re time zone and posted times. A very sore point. We try to get the owners in the US to act on this but we never seem to get it resolved.

This post time is: 22:16 I would not be surprised if it isn't correct.

I can and do guarantee I hit the submit button as above.

[1771 DELETE]

Alfred
As you may be aware, working on a squadron, i had no responsibility for the reporting of the junior ranks.
Two`s In
You incorrectly guess at my politics which has nothing to do with my dislike for the way the honours system is handled. It still is a case of getting an honour if you reach a certain rank and don`t say no to superiors when that is obvioulsy the correct response. No wonder many of the senior officers are so spineless, when their honour might just go missing in the post.
PPrune Mod
Being over this side of the pond and looking at the timings, my system displays local times for each entry, which obviously does not look like the correct chronological order.

[Easy Street]

To those who say there should be no difference between commissioned and non-commissioned ranks when rewarding loyal service etc - why are only non-commissioned ranks eligible for award of the Long Service & Good Conduct Medal? I don't think any officers would argue that they should be eligible for it; it's just that tradition has seen fit to reward the two branches in different ways. Most officers don't get any kind of long service award; the MBEs, OBEs etc are very much in the minority - so when you consider the LSGCM the non-commissioned ranks actually do better!

[ian16th]

Officers can be awarded the LS & GC Medal!

"An Officer shall be eligible for award of the LS&GCM if 12 or more of the 15 years service has been in the ranks and provided that the other criteria have been met. An Officer shall be eligible for award of the Clasp if 22 or more of the 30 years service has been in the ranks and provided that the other criteria have been met."

Full gen at: Ministry of Defence | Defence For... | Veterans | Medals | LS&GCM (RAF) (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceFor/Veterans/Medals/Lsandgcmraf.htm)

[Ascot 5999]

Moderator

VMT. Your post shown as 0517, so the US is a bit off.

Melchett, it was the post times not the NYHL times I was querying.

I have a large glass of cheer in my hand for all colleagues in combat. Return home safely and God Speed.

[minigundiplomat]

Easy Street,


If the average officer served a bit longer, and behaved a bit better, I am sure many would support the award of LS & GC medals.

MGD

[Al R]

Wouldn't you expect all officers to be of impeccable conduct :oh: ? If so, what's the point of dishing something out, that doesn't have stand out value? I imagine that the middle ranking officer without one, for whatever reason, would not have much authority and credibility with the troops. Although, the reverse may be true of course..

[Dengue_Dude]

Yep, that's about right.

They can manage Long Service or perhaps Good Conduct.

Problem is Long Service AND Good Conduct . . . do remember, they're all practising to be politicians and diplomats :)

[cazatou]

Easy Street

A ballot was taken in the late 70's as to whether or not Officers should receive a LSGC medal. The result was a substantial NO vote IIRC.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

;)

A ballot was taken in the late 70's as to whether or not Officers should receive a LSGC medal. The result was a substantial NO vote IIRC.

Who was involved in this ballot ?


Surely, officers are supposed to be of good conduct by default! It would be good to see some officers on jankers though. Perhaps for being late/not turning up at all to raise the ensign in the morning.

[Two's in]

Let's not fool ourselves here, the LS & GC medal is not known as the "Undetected Crime badge" for nothing, and its recipients should be rightfully proud of their ability to effectively cover their tracks.

[Pontius Navigator]

;)Perhaps for being late/not turning up at all to raise the ensign in the morning.

Now now, I resemble that remark. Why, I even forgot I was 'on' one day and went home (57 miles away) to be met by the adjt the next day to say I owed him one :)

[Grabbers]

The LSGCM is not a right and a misdemeanour does not preclude one indefinitely from it's award. You just have to apply. :ok:

[Admin_Guru]

FWIW I think that all servicemen should be elligable for the LS&GCM. Equally the honours system (medal awards) should not be biased by rank. There comes a time when everybody is an ex-serviceman regardless of rank and LS&GCM sounds good on a CV as just recognition of service. It has integrity as I know of several servicemen who do not have it despite having served the time. My understanding is that the 15 year qualification times start again after a formal misdemenour, and rehabilitation of offenders and all that...

I am not a fan of tossers using their former rank in civvy street though, a view made because those that do are invariably complete dipsticks.

[F3sRBest]

Officers' should not get the LS&GCM. It's a given!... or darn well should be.

[curvedsky]

It seems that no awards of the AFC (Air Force Cross) or QCVSA (Queen's Commendation for Valuable Service in the Air) were made in the recent 2011 New Year Honours list.

Searching the RAF, RN & Army lists of awards has produced no recipients.

Is this the first Honours List in which neither an AFC or a QCVSA has been awarded?

Ref: post #3 by Green Flash 31 Dec 10

The Air Force Cross is awarded in recognition of exemplary gallantry in the air on non-active operations.

The Queen's Commendation for Valuable Service recognises meritorious service during, or in support of, operations.

[Harley Quinn]

Perhaps the lack of AFC/QCVSA is an indication of the normalisation of current operations in the minds of the awarding committees this time around, or maybe the current crop of aircrew are just better than their predecessors, making the exceptional seem mundane?

[Tankertrashnav]

or maybe the current crop of aircrew are just better than their predecessors, making the exceptional seem mundane?

Yes it's quite obvious that after the exceptional aircrew of the WW2 and immediate post war period, and the supermen of the 90's onwards, we guys in that middle period in the Cold War were just a mediocre bunch of t**sers!

Or perhaps you were just winding us up? ;)

HNY

TTN

[CheapAsChips]

Chaps

Nothing at all to do with lack of gallantry, ops becoming the norm or anything else. The NYHL and QBHL only contain non-op awards. Any op hons - DFC, AFC, QCVS etc - are published in the twice yearly op hons list. The Op Hons Lists are normally published Mar and Sep. Last one contained Ian Fortune's DFC. There are always some amazing deeds of gallantry in the lists.

[Union Jack]

TTN and Piltdown Man

PM I commented on another thread (can't remember the link) about a photo of some 4* admiral recently appointed, who apart from his KCB, Jubilee etc didnt have a gallantry/campaign medal of any description on display. I said at the time that things haven't changed since Gilbert said "stick close to your desks and never go to sea, and you all may be leaders of the Queen's navee"! - TTN

Perhaps my post No 17 on the New Year http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/356297-honours-list.html just a year ago may give some idea of the Royal Navy's standpoint on honours. In any case, any four star Admiral nowadays will almost certainly have to have had one or two sea commands in the ranks of both Commander and Captain, and plenty of seatime prior to promotion to Commander , to reach his exalted rank, so your Gilbertian take may be both a little off beam and a bit hard on the Admiral concerned.:ok:

Additionally, the Royal Navy's potential for seagoing officers receiving awards, rather than honours, has been rather limited of late, and noting my point about submarine commanding officers such as the present CINCFLEET.

Jack

PS PPRuNe Pop's 2216 post is shown correctly timed on my screen - what's a minute between friends?:)

[ian16th]

curvedsky,

You abbreviated the description of the AFC justification. In full it reads:

"an act or acts of valour, courage or devotion to duty whilst flying, though not in active operations against the enemy"

The RAF's senior serving officer, MoRAF Sir Mike Beetham was awarded his AFC for his 'devotion to duty' as OC 214 Sqdn, while successfully completing the in-flight refueling trials of the probe and drogue system for the RAF.

Michael Beetham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Beetham)

Edited to add the Wiki URL.

[curvedsky]

ian16th,

Thank you for your comments on the AFC award. The description that I used was from the current MOD page, Defence for Veterans. This page can be seen in full at:

Ministry of Defence | Defence For... | Veterans | Medals | Air Force Cross (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceFor/Veterans/Medals/AirForceCross.htm)

The award of the QCVSA seems to have faded away. The equivalent award today is perhaps the QCBA & QCVS (without the A which is rather sad) and this nomenclature is shown in the last Operational Honours and Awards List:

Ministry of Defence | Defence News | History and Honour | Operational Honours and Awards List: 24 September 2010 (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/HistoryAndHonour/OperationalHonoursAndAwardsList24September2010.htm)

[doubledolphins]

I've got one. As have most Volunteer Reserve officers with more than 10 years service. The medal, the VRSM, is awarded accross all three services irrespective of Rank or Rate.

[Roadster280]

I even forgot I was 'on' one day and went home (57 miles away) to be met by the adjt the next day to say I owed him one

And that exemplifies why there is an issue. Had an SAC or Pte "gone home" instead of attending guard mount, he'd have been charged with "Absent from place of duty". That charge is sufficiently serious to usually attract some time being spent in the greybar hotel. Goodbye LS & GC, hello "cards marked".

Of course it would be more serious for an officer to be charged with the same offence, it would often mean end of commission. However, that is too serious a punishment, and so the matter is swept under the carpet, and the Adjt (the very bloke responsible for discipline!!) is "owed one".

Until this kind of inequity is dealt with, then there will be disquiet.

(Nothing personal PN, just using your post as an example of why things aren't right.)

[Tankertrashnav]

Had an SAC or Pte "gone home" instead of attending guard mount, he'd have been charged with "Absent from place of duty". That charge is sufficiently serious to usually attract some time being spent in the greybar hotel. Goodbye LS & GC, hello "cards marked".


Hmm - reminds me of the time when as SDO I found that the orderly corporal hadn't turned up for duty. After sending someone to look for him, I found he was asleep in his bunk, having "forgotten". I immediately put him on a charge (this was at Kai Tak in 1968 during a period of civil tension). Next day his flight commander rang me and asked if I would consider dropping the charge as they were having problems with a new bit of kit and this was obviously preying on the corporal's mind! I thought, if thats the way you want to run your flight, sod it, and I let it go!

But then I was just the nasty rockape officer and he was a highly trained technician - what did I know! :*

[ian16th]

curvedsky

Been away, sorry for the delay in answering.

Thanks for you URL. Does this mean there has been a change in the criteria? I was aware of the MoRAF Mike Beetham award as he told me that I'd helped him get it!:ok:

That was me and a hundred an odd others on 214 at the time :bored:

Can Tankertrashnav, with his knowledge of decorations help?

[cazatou]

AARON

Re your post 28

The ballot was for Commissioned Officers only as to whether or not they should receive a LSGC medal. The result was they should NOT by a substantial margin.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

;)

Thank you for that.

[Wensleydale]

A slightly off thread and perhaps daft question....

If an airman (or SNCO) fails the fitness test and receives the inevitable formal warning for displaying a poor attitude towards physical fitness, will this affect their entitlement to the LSGC?

[Al R]

Next day his flight commander rang me and asked if I would consider dropping the charge as they were having problems with a new bit of kit and this was obviously preying on the corporal's mind!

My god TTN, thats just dreadful. I hope you apologised 'n stuff.

[Old-Duffer]

.... TankerTrashNav.

If you were the Rock at Kai Tak in '68, then you must be the same bloke who carried the 'homemade squadron standard' on the Queens Birthday Parade that year - and I have the photographic evidence to prove it!!

Old Duffer

[NUFC1892]

A slightly off thread and perhaps daft question....

If an airman (or SNCO) fails the fitness test and receives the inevitable formal warning for displaying a poor attitude towards physical fitness, will this affect their entitlement to the LSGC?


Not unless he murders the PTI:)