Merry Christmas From China

[LowObservable]

China's Stealth Striker (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckBlogPage=Blog&plckBlogId=Blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckScript=blogScript&plckController=Blog&plckElementId=blogDest&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7)

Verry interrresting.....

[ab33t]

Surely not , you cant see much from the picture.

[John Farley]

What you can assess from such a picture tends to depend on your education, training, experience, knowledge of various aircraft design features ....sorry I am getting carried away and stating the obvious.

[davejb]

You can measure angles, and as there are a bunch of people (for one example of a yardstick) you can measure size/length.... a long way from 'everything' but assuming your photo is genuine you can learn quite a lot of obvious stuff, before looking for the less obvious.

[Load Toad]

How come if it's Chinese it's got big red stars on the tail? Photoshopped bag of wanq.

[davejb]

Chinese insignia is a red star on a red band...

[iRaven]

Look closer at the picture...

http://sitelife.aviationweek.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/10/9/2a52ef21-26cf-44ce-9916-f1a72949bdb8.Full.jpg

and I see more of this...

http://english.people.com.cn/mediafile/200707/17/P200707171517152540930079.jpg
...the PLAAF's Star than that of the Russian Air Force Star...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/URSS-Russian_aviation_red_star.svg/630px-URSS-Russian_aviation_red_star.svg.png

Or, if it is Russian then they may be visiting for Foreign Military Sales - I don't know what's worse!!! :eek:

iRaven

[iRaven]

In fact there's loads of information if you Google J-14, J-20 or J-XX and you'll turn out images of

http://www.91tuhai.com/uploads/201001/439b15fcb0a5607b26961f1d05d9ae07.jpg

http://www.91tuhai.com/uploads/201001/483f2d5db3b04b0f560d3674fecb57aa.jpg

[iRaven]

And another...
http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=191209&d=1293470254

[Load Toad]

Well when I've seen Chinese air army 'planes at places such as Shantou I've only seen the red star with the red band through it. Anyways I guess like any country they can R&D new 'planes. Doesn't mean they are any good does it?

[Grimweasel]

...and there I was thinking you meant the Chinese increasing their interest rates on Xmas day when all the Western markets were closed!!

[tonker]

I don't know why it wouldn't be any good because its Chinese.

The laptop i'm using is built in China and its the best on the market. Know your enemy.

[LowObservable]

Overestimating your adversary is a big mistake.

http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2007/12/351563715476e57965ac71584790924_140x140x001111.jpg

[glad rag]

But 1000X worse is the opposite...................:cool:

[TEEEJ]

More images.

http://oi52.tinypic.com/712wxt.jpg

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/6469/101228212060e291fbcb3fd.jpg

http://oi52.tinypic.com/4v0glk.jpg

TJ

[barnstormer1968]

I was under the impression that the internal structure of stealth aircraft had to be stealthy too*, which the airframe in the large pic seems not to be.

Of course, it matters not whether this new type is excellent or rubbish to be honest. It will still easily defeat types like the F22 or Typhoon on a basis of superior numbers alone (in a 'full on' fight)!


*This is only what I have heard, and claim to have no knowledge on this subject at all.

[TEEEJ]

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/1157/j20w.jpg

Links to larger images.

http://i56.tinypic.com/3127a08.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/2lvd3j6.jpg

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/1783/1293597663994591.jpg

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/5697/1293597663296371.jpg

[Flyingblind]

Did I miss something or is Year 2011, Rising of Eastern Dragon PLAAF?

[Rovertime]

Can the F-35 already be considered 'toast'?
Discussed here:
What China's New J-20 Stealth Fighter Means for the F-35 JSF and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet (http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-311210-1.html)

[arandcee]

So it seems the raptor now has 2 tribute acts, how come we never saw grainy photos of facsimile f117s or b2s? Or praps they're too good to show up on film?!

[TEEEJ]

Comparison with J-10. It would appear that the J-20 is around the length of an Su-27?

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/27_137332_0840c1e0cdae342.jpg

TJ

[TabulaRasa]

There's some cockpit photos here: Welcome to China Defense.com (http://china-defense.com/)

[subsonicsubic]

Congratulations PRC!

It looks awesome, even if its full capabilities may not be understood yet.

A well managed economy affords the developments of sexy equipment and this is a lesson to our politicians and bean-counters.

Best,

SSS

[Load Toad]

Funny innit. When 'they' build a new 'plane its going to be ace and cause all sorts of mither but if we build a new 'plane the radar won't work the thing hasn't enough fuel, made of the wrong materials by cheap sub contractors, missiles fly backwards, bombs aren't smart, can't carry enough of anything too many crew, can't land on a carrier, too heavy, lacks commonality, can't communicate, made of peas, underpowered, not enough cup holders, smells of wee....

[Stitchbitch]

LT, I wouldn't be too worried, half the kids christmas presents have broken already, and they were made in China. :E
On the flipside, at least they have a large manufacturing base and economy of scale, so they are able to do this sort of thing. I doubt we'd be able to produce anything more than a UCAV (or whatever they are called this month) in the future. Looks a little like the old Mig below mated with an F-23.
http://www.strangemilitary.com/images/content/170133.jpg

[ORAC]

Ares: Every Day, It's a-Getting Closer (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a3622be78-8ffe-4e81-b5a1-b4436e9b53e2&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest)

http://sitelife.aviationweek.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/5/15/35062f5b-aa46-4842-9f6d-5547c4f5de5a.Full.jpg

The most recent imagery from Chengdu shows further progress toward first flight, with the nosewheel off the ground. At the same time, Chinese defense bloggers have pulled up an image of an experimental simulator cockpit that emerged a couple of years ago:

http://sitelife.aviationweek.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/10/7/2a7d1513-74d2-4658-875e-b13b6b065bf4.Large.jpg

The forward view of the aircraft on the left-hand display is much too like the J-20 to be the product of coincidence.

Other Chinese enthusiasts have been playing with CGI. It is hard to vouch for their accuracy, but it's visually impressive:

http://sitelife.aviationweek.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/14/8/7ee42457-7030-4864-9876-c286f6499e09.Large.jpg

Finally, Air Power Australia has released an updated assessment (http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-J-XX-Prototype.html) of the J-20, with some interesting thoughts on timing, numbers and roles and missions, and Feng at Information Dissemination (http://www.informationdissemination.net/2011/01/my-thoughts-on-j-20.html) has some good observations.

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

What? Air Power Australia thinks the J-20 is a ripper and that the F-35 should be cancelled??? :eek:

Holy crap, who could've predicted that? May as well start learning Mandarin now! :suspect:

[Load Toad]

Dui, hen hao!

[GreenKnight121]

Finally, Air Power Australia has released an updated assessment (http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-J-XX-Prototype.html) of the J-20, with some interesting thoughts on timing, numbers and roles and missions,

Wild-@ssed guesses, pure imaginings, and desperate exaggerations designed to support their "the RAAF must buy F-22 only & completely rebuild the F-111" agenda.

[tonker]

Sounds like a plan. We could have TSR2's:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

[TEEEJ]

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/422100_1294040148wX50.gif

[Smoketoomuch]

JF said;
"What you can assess from such a picture tends to depend on your education, training, experience, knowledge of various aircraft design features "

Come on John, don't leave us hanging...
Care to share your impression?

[TEEEJ]

Either landing or high speed taxi with chute deployment at Chengdu?

tJDI4OHtzsw

http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx11/VVbear/xcx.jpg

TJ

[Willard Whyte]

bu dui hen hao qing yond cesuo zaoju zaii jain dong le dong bu dong

Hey!

That's my mobile 'phone ring tone!

[John Farley]

Surely not , you cant see much from the picture.

I was merely making the general case following the quote above.

Not suggesting that I had any such background.

In actual fact there have been several links to analysis that I find no reason to argue with.

Something that Anatoly Kvotchur said to me one day was "the bigger the aircraft the easier it is to meet the spec" Wise words but they do ignore visual signature and cost.

As to

Wild-@ssed guesses, pure imaginings, and desperate exaggerations designed to support their "the RAAF must buy F-22 only & completely rebuild the F-111" agenda.

I would have thought that a careful read of the introduction to the document referred to makes it very clear it is none of those things as it is full of very sensible caveats.

[Load Toad]

Article from TIME: "You Provide The Pictures, I'll Provide The War" -... - StumbleUpon (http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/2UW2wt/swampland.blogs.time.com/2011/01/05/you-provide-the-pictures-ill-provide-the-war/)

[TEEEJ]

ZmVjMeNbEqc

TJ

[LowObservable]

Buying a few more pounds or cubic feet of space is no bad thing on a stealth platform. Visuals aside, observables are not related to size (sometimes bigger is better) and you can't follow the F-16-like growth path of adding bigger drop tanks, extra spines and conformals. Also, a bit of extra surface area for LO comms and EW antennas can come in handy.

Agree on APA. They are not perfect, but for some reason have acquired a flock of detractors, some of them complete loonies.

[TEEEJ]

The flight today at Chengdu has been cancelled, according to the Chinese forums. VIPs were noted getting a guided tour of the aircraft. The airspace was cleared and the nearby international airport was closed down for the period.

http://oi51.tinypic.com/10z0mt1.jpg

According to the Chinese forums many spectators were moved on from the best viewing spots. People were even up the trees!

http://oi55.tinypic.com/34nscpe.jpg

Looking at the images it is clear that the weather got in the way!

New video of J-20 being towed. Taken from eastern side of Chengdu.

sK7fJav8FwE

TJ

[MudRat_02]

Can the F-35 already be considered 'toast'?
Discussed here:
What China's New J-20 Stealth Fighter Means for the F-35 JSF and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet

Yes, Carlo Kopp has had a field day with this one and has taken it as another opportunity to decry the F-35/F-18F combo in favour of the unavailable F-22. He knows his stuff far better than I do, but I don't know if anyone is in a position to make the claims he does based purely on the poor quality pictures available and without access to information on the true capabilities of the F-22/F-35/T-50/J20 (that is understandably kept well-guarded and the latter are only prototypes!), and if so they could be saving aerospace companies a lot of money by drafting advanced stealth designs without the need for all that testing and whatnot ;):

The stealth shaping is without doubt considerably better than that seen in the Russian T-50 PAK-FA prototypes and, even more so, than that seen in the intended production configuration of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

He then goes on to say how the F-35 hasn't got a prayer against this jet in an engagement. F-35 capability controversies aside, it seems like force multipliers should have a significant impact on any hypothetical matchup. I think he tends to be a bit over zealous.

[TEEEJ]

Update from Chengdu as of 1230 local time from Chinese aircraft enthusiasts. Two VIP Boeing 737s have now landed at Chengdu. Cameras have been set up and manned. The J-20 has completed a high-speed taxi. Security is very tight and is now blocking roads and stopping traffic. A J-10 chase aircraft with a possible camera pod has now flown twice on possible weather sorties.

1243 local - J-20 engine running on runway.

J-20 is now flying with J-10 as chase aircraft as of 1250 local.

TJ

[TEEEJ]

1308 local - J-20 has landed.

Images at following.

Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - J-20 Black Eagle - Part 3 (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=1687935&postcount=109)

TJ

[Tashengurt]

Do Rosetta stone do Mandarin? :ooh:

[rp122]

It's made it's first 15min test flight.

RnjDfS-v0RE


Direct link
YouTube - China's Stealth Jet J-20 "2001-02" First Flight Video (HD)?20???????? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnjDfS-v0RE)

[TEEEJ]

Some links to better quality images. Probably my eyes, but I can't see a weapons bay? Possibly it will be fielded on the rumoured 2002 airframe?

http://i.imgur.com/xpeA9.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/dnf9h.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TSHDc.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/w8Ay5.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/DI6Ue.jpg

TJ

[27mm]

Reminds me more of the F-22's competitor in the run-off, the Lockheed YF-23, IIRC

[NorthernKestrel]

Interesting write-up here of the J-20...

Not so hidden dragon - China's J-20 assessed | Aerospace Insight | The Royal Aeronautical Society (http://www.aerosocietychannel.com/aerospace-insight/2011/01/not-so-hidden-dragon-j-20-assessed/)

Will we see two affordable stealth fighters battling it out on the world market in the future?

[ORAC]

And just to add to the other news rolling out of China whilst their PM is in the USA, just to rub it in.....

China Restores Soviet Aircraft Carrier (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=5489543&c=ASI&s=SEA)

[GreenKnight121]

China has never officially announced it was renovating the 990-foot long aircraft carrier.


However, running threads with regular photo updates (including discussions identifying what changes are being made and which systems were being installed) have been all over the warship discussion boards across the net for years... like this one: PLAN News, Photos and Speculation #3 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=72227)

And this one: PLAN Carrier Updates. - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=93367)

[GreenKnight121]

Some links to better quality images. Probably my eyes, but I can't see a weapons bay? Possibly it will be fielded on the rumoured 2002 airframe?


Elsewhere on the net there is discussion of those photos... some have been analyzed for "tampering", and it seems that details like the edges of the control surfaces where they meet the wings, and sections of the fuselage, have been "smoothed" to eliminate detail... suggesting that those photos were deliberately altered to hide such things as the location/size/shape of weapons bays, etc.

[oldgrubber]

I was looking for the latest on the Chinese carrier situation and found this excellent link

THE RISING SEA DRAGON IN ASIA VARYAG TRANSFORMATION (http://www.freewebs.com/jeffhead/redseadragon/varyagtransform.htm)

[Al R]

Not as potentially amusing as this mind.

BBC News - China TV 'substitutes Top Gun for air force footage' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12321492)

A China Central Television story about the country's air force showed an explosion that was identical to a scene from the 1986 film Top Gun.