German POWs

[27mm]

Today's Daily Telegraph has some photos of the coldest winters on record. One of them, from 1947, shows a group of German POWs clearing a road in Derbyshire. Why did we still have POWs 2 years after the end of WW2?

[Cubs2jets]

"Cause slavery had been outlawed?:}

C2j

[Yamagata ken]

I worked in Germany with a man who was called up into the German army in 1938, and released from a Soviet slave camp in 1952. He wasnt a fan of Hitler or Stalin. My father-out-law, captured by the Soviets in 1945 was released from Siberian slave camp in 1949. He doesnt believe in God

[27mm]

I can understand the Soviet regime hanging on to POWs, but what were we Brits doing with them in 1947?

[ZH875]

Making them clean up the mess they were responsible for?

[carholme]

Interesting:

BBC - History - British History in depth: Life in Britain for German Prisoners of War (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwtwo/german_pows_01.shtml)

carholme

[aviate1138]

When I was a young lad and living near Kempton Park Race Course, where lots of German POWs transited during WW2, a work party was filling in a small roadside crater near our house. We [my wartime mates and I, all of at least 4 years old] were stood watching the POWs using a small cement mixer watched by some gun toting Army guards. One POW asked a guard if he could lift me up to look inside the mixer and all the churning going on. I had blonde hair btw as the blond haired POW lifted me up and I could see the action. As he lowered me he kissed my cheek and gave me a hug. That action made me later realise how much that young German must have missed his kid/s and I had also noticed the tears streaming down his cheeks. When my Mother ranted on about the Germs I used to think about my cement making POW and made allowances in my young mind.

POWs were cheap labour weren't they and a lot didn't want to go back to a Russian Germany.

[Load Toad]

It took quite a while to work out where to send some I guess esp. given their country was now occupied by Stalinists. Others might need to be carefully considered for release if they had been Nazi party or supporters. Some probably had nothing to go back to anyway.

[Rengineer]

For all I know, the majority of Germans in Britain got sent back until late 1946 or so. But I guess a distinction was made between captured combatants and war criminals. That was certainly the case in the Soviet Union where tens of thousands were hastily convicted of war crimes, and kept until the 1950's.

Still, without a proper state to go back to, no peace treaty, and all sectors of Germany under different occupation, it must have been a mess sorting out where to send whom. Plus, out of the four German relatives whose wartime stories I know, three came back running rather than released - but none from Britain. Talk about splendid isolation!

[sooms]

I was listening to Wogan one morning on the way to work when this subject came up...

An old lady emailed in something like the following:

' We had a nice young German boy working on our farm and doing the gardening during and after the war. He was a hard worker, always polite, would play with us children and was a pleasure to have around. When he left we exchanged presents and we were sorry to see him leave.

The spring after he left we were very suprised when the daffodils he planted in the garden spelt Heil Hitler!'

[POBJOY]

If you google the above it is possible to see what some Ist War Pow's left behind as a reminder of their "visit" to England !!

Iron Cross Wood (Google Maps) - Virtual Globetrotting (http://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/iron-cross-wood/view/?service=0)

[sisemen]

There was recently a documentary on the Battle for Monte Casino on the telly and one of the guys was relating his experiences. His accent was broad Sheffield. As he continued talking things weren't adding up until finally the penny dropped - he was German and one of the defenders! At some point he'd been captured, sent to a POW camp in the UK and decided to stay after the war.

[Dan Winterland]

My mother still owns a property in Norfolk which was part of her father's estate which was broken up after his death in 1991. It's a small farm cottage and in his will, my grandfather granted his farm foreman for over thirty years, George, the tennacy until his death at a peppercorn rent. He's a lovely old guy with a broad Norfolk accent and I've known him for many years, but until recently never knew he had a German surname.

He was captured in North Africa and once as a POW in England, sent to work on the land. The farm was allocated several POWs, all Italian except for George who was put in charge as he was from an efficient country! After the war, the Italians all went home but George was from the East, had no family left and had nothing to go back to. So he stayed, married a local girl and essentially became an Englishman - although he's probably still technically German as I suspect he's never left the UK or even obtained a passport.

My mother remembers George arriving on the farm. At first he was defiant and arrogant. But when he realised he was on a cushy number, being fed and adequately accommodated, he soon mellowed, learned English quickly and was very trustworthy. Security for these POWs was very lax and they could have escaped at any time, but didn't as they knew they wouldn't get across the Channel. (The only German POW to return to the Fatherland escaped from Canada through the then neutral USA). George was always very level headed and wasn't a fervant Nazi. In fact he seemed remorseful for what his country was doing to the rest of Europe and was worried for the locals when the port of Kings Lynn, only three miles away was frequently bombed. My Grandfather used to loose of a few shotgun barrels off at the night sky during the raids. There was no chance of them hitting anything, but it probably made him feel better.

The Italians were a homesick and emotional bunch, but in good spirits and my Mother remembers them singing a lot. They loved having my mum and her sisters around and made them wooden toys. I inherited one of them as a child, which was like a ping pong bat which when rotated horiontally, made chickens peck the 'bat' through the actions of a weight. I wish I still had it.

They were all very well treated by my Grandfather despite his antipathy towards the Germans - probably due to getting a German bullet through the neck in 1917! And things were a bit awkward when the eldest Sister's fiancee, an RAF pilot was killed on a raid, but all the POWs were treated as family friends and often ate with the family. My mother remembers huge meals with family and POWs alike round the large kitchen table.

But my Grandfather made a few rude comments when my Sister married an Italian Army Officer in the early 1990s!

[BEagle]

We employed quite a few Italian and German workers in the 1950s and early 1960s, most of whom had been POWs and had decided to stay on. As Dan has also commented, the Italians were a happy bunch; one of them had been a Vatican Guard and was asked why, when all he had to do was stand around with a pike all day, had he decided to become a farm worker...

"Was a very heavy pike!" was his logical answer.

We had one German ex-POW as the foreman at one site (Dunkeswell) - during the 1962/63 winter he rang up to announce "Ach, boss, it iss shnowink like shtink!". Another had been in the Luftwaffe and was a real gent, although our Cockney mechanic once remarked to him "You must have been one of the bleeders wot bombed arr 'ahse" - they'd been bombed out of Stepney.

We took one of the Italians to St. Merryn for the annual haymaking. He seemed rather depressed until we arrived in Cornwall, whereupon he brightened up considerably, to announce "Hey, Mr (BEagle's dad) - much jig-a-jig here!", with a broad grin across his face.

One of them, who came from a small village in Sicily, was once asked whether there was much Mafia activity at home. Poor chap went white and muttered "Si, si - plenty Mafia". The subject wasn't mentioned again.

I only recall one tricky moment for one of them. Such was the way of things back then that they did the occasional bit of 'baby sitting' for my brother and I when our parents went out. 'The Valiant Years' was on TV and we were watching it with Rudi, one of our Germans, when the topic of the Hitler Youth came up in the programme. Rudi went rather ashen and just said "It wasn't like the Boy Scouts - we HAD to join"... Poor chap looked very awkward indeed. Occasionally Toni, one of the Italians, would also act as baby sitter and loved playing with the Hornby Dublo, although he clearly didn't have Il Duce's skill at making the trains run on time!

In the days when all kids rushed around playing Brits v. Germans, to have known some of the enemy of 10-15 years earlier was very interesting indeed.

[Yamagata ken]

Reflecting. As a teenager in the 60's I worked on a farm with a German ex-POW. I asked him why he stayed on afterwards. His reply: he had a home, a job and was sweet on a local girl. Back in Germany, he had no home, no work and no family. There must have been plenty like him.

[teeteringhead]

We had an ex-POW German working in our local bakers in Sarf London when I was a boy - and in an area had suffered much from the Luftwaffe's attempts at town planning.

But "Ernie White" (ne Ernst Weiss) was a good bloke and a good baker - married one of my primary school teachers I think.

Must be lots of similar stories.....

[Pom Pax]

At the age of 5 and a bit I escaped the parental home and successfully avoided recapture before teatime for several afternoons. However upon interrogation I fessed up to helping my friends on the railway line, I was then accused of fraternising with the enemy! But I had learnt how to change points though couldn't understand why they could throw that lever so easily when my mate and I couldn't budge the thing. Our pay had been joy rides on the trolley with pump up and down handles, our Italian friends' guards tried to stop these joy rides on elf & safety issues and delaying the essential maintenance whilst pointing out to us (who couldn't yet read) a sign which said Danger .... trespass....by order... L.N.E.R.
Shortly afterwards about half the Italians seemed to have some design on the back of their uniforms, upon querying this I was told it was to show which were the good ones on our side and which were still the bad guys. This I could not understand nor the fuss about a pretty mountain pouring out smoke.

[sisemen]

Living a couple of doors down from us (in Doncaster) was an ex German POW with no legs. He was married to a Brit girl who was totally blind (and incredibly attractive I seem to remember as a 'just' teenager with hormones pumping). They were a totally devoted couple but we, shamefully, did give the guy a bit of a hard time for being a Narzi.

[Vitesse]

My neighbour's father had recently died and while chatting to my neighbour, he mentioned that his father had been a German POW and stayed in the UK after the war. Intrigued, I enquired how that had come about. My neighbour said he'd never asked...

[onetrack]

Well, Wikipedia has the answer to your main question. The use of German POW's for a couple of years after WW2 was a form of reparation.

Forced labor of Germans after World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labor_of_Germans_after_World_War_II)

Other factors to keep in mind...

1. There was a massive shortage of shipping to move anything, right after the cessation of hostilities. Shipping was immediately engaged to take all the surplus troop numbers home. This movement alone took up to 6 months.

2. There were millions of displaced refugees to take care of. The relocation of these refugees took priority over enemy POW's. Many refugees refused to return to the place they came from, as they had lost everything, and the destruction and memories of constant death in their homeland, was too much for them. Thus, many refugees decided to emigrate. This took up much valuable shipping.

3. It took time to sort out who were war criminals, and who were just ordinary everyday soldiers, following orders. All enemy POW's had to be interviewed and their stories and movements collated, to ensure that they were who they said they were, and they weren't responsible for atrocities.

[pasir]

It was probably around the late 60s I visited premises that I beleive may have been in the Bedford area and having completed a deal sat down at my customers desk to a cup of tea. Noticing an array of German helmets and caps nearby I enquired where he had obtained them. "They are mine" he replied. Apparantly he had been a U-boat commander - and having been taken POW - had stayed on after the war. By the time of my visit he had built up a thriving wholesale petrol business with a small fleet of petrol tankers - and had his own light aircraft and private strip nearby. He came over as one of the most genuine and honest persons I had ever done business with.

...

[skydiver69]

When I was a travel agent one of my customers was a 70-80 year old Ukrainian gentleman. I sold him tickets to go to Kiev which he said was his first visit back since the war. Apparently he could speak German and as a teenager he had fought for the Germans against the USSR. I don't know how he ended up in England but given his history I can see why he wasn't welcome back in the Ukraine for so long.

[sisemen]

He was very, very lucky to survive. Any Soviet that had fought on the German side (and there were many) was a doomed man if he was ever repatriated.

[Dan Winterland]

Probably a similar story to a good mate's father. He's Canadian but has a Ukranian surname. His dad, like many Ukranians in WW2 joined the German Army when they came knocking because they still remembered that Uncle Joe Stalin tried to starve them all to death a few years earlier. Against all odds, John's dad survived three years fighting the Russians on the Eastern front, but was close to capture while defending Berlin in 1945. Realising he would be summarily executed if captured, he acquired some civilain clothes, persuaded the Russians he was slave labour and was send back East. When he realisd he was going to Russia, he jumped off the train and headed West, finally surrendering to a Canadian unit. They were going to send him back East and to his certain death, but pleaded with them and they took pity. Which is why he became a Canadian citizen. He was 20 at the time.

John has persuaded him to write his memoirs. Can't wait to read them.

[apriliadriver]

I live in West London. Quite a few German PoWs ended up living there and marrying locally.

About ten years ago I was travelling on the Met tube into London, via Wembley Park. Opposite me is a couple : he is small of stature, round nut-brown face, fairly fractured accent. He is wearing a blazer with the most beautiful cloissone enamel badge showing a palm-tree. She is same age, clearly an 'Arrow Londoner.

After a while I leant over and said "Excuse me, but I have got to ask - where is your badge from ?".

He said : "Nord Afrika, 2nd Panzer". I asked him where they were bound. "Wembley Centre, we are having a reunion. There will be singing !"

His wife looked over and said "He'll drink too much, I'm there to make sure he gets home ".

Taken PoW in Africa, never left Britain.
Nick

[con-pilot]

There was a German POW camp in Roswell, New Mexico (of the UFO fame) where my mother lived. After the end or the war in Europe they more or less just opened up the gates of the camp and allowed most of the POWs to wander around the town from sunrise until sunset. From what my mother told me about 25% of the POWs stayed and did not return to Germany.

And after studying post World War Two Germany from the end of the war until after the Berlin Airlift, I can't really blame them. Especially those from East Germany.

[pasir]

On the Ukranian POW issue at the wars end - attempting to trace on whoms side any individual Ukranian was sympathetic to would have been a daunting task at a time when the immediate urgency in April 1945 was for any former member of the AXIS powers not to be found within any Russian controlled area. Consequently many incriminating uniforms relative to the Nazi cause were hastily discarded.

Treblinka Extermination Camp for instance had a very high percentage of
Ukranian camp guards - With later several instances of individuals discovered
living in South America and elsewhere being brought to trial more than
40 years on in this connection.
I know personally of a Ukranian who has beein living in the UK since
about 1947 - allegedly as a 'displaced person' - but who knows if he too
has a guilty past - as he avoids talking about his earlier life.