Pongo's Reactionary Protectionism....

[TurbineTooHot]

For those of you who have seem the front page of the Sunday Times today, I'm sure you've had enough time to mull this over.

For those who haven't, the general gist is this. Our Ground Pounding bretherin are in the process of sending at least one squadron of Challenger 2 MBTs out into theatre...... No bead-window time, it's in the public domain where I got it from.

Now, for some years now, I was labouring under the apprehension that MBTs were not the correct system for the Theatre for some several reasons including but not exclusively:

1: Not cool for hearts and minds...

2: Some what lacking in mobility given the conditions/terrain etc

3: See points 1 and 2 ref all of the T52/55/72s littering the landscape, somewhat burnt out.....

So. This (mis)apprehension came from the meeeja, and some pongo mates who were in the process of bigging up the latest WartMasBullVikingIK to be purchased under UOR.

To quote "Only the Challenger can give them the combination of protection and firepower that they need."

Two questions need answering here.


Firstly, if the above quote is true, why the fook has the MBT not been a fixture with TFH for a good while now?

Secondly, and pertaining to this forum, is this not a blatant case of Army Reationary Protectionism? Given that "40% of the Army's Challenger 2 tanks are due to be axed" it does seem to be a rather timely deployment. Which makes somewhat of a mockery of their banter about "The War" and that most pongos that one speaks to don't think that the UK requires Fixed Wing Air Defence because it doesn't contribute to "The War."

I'd love to have been able to put this more elequently, so I hope some of my more erodite collegues can continue.

Discuss

[Green Flash]

As I understand it, there were some Danish (or maybe Canadian?) Leopards working with the British battle groups? Maybe the Danes are going home and a few Challys are going out to replace them. :confused:

[Compressorstall]

The Danes and Canadians have had Leopards there for some time. Whilst the cynics can argue the toss about the Army's move in the light of SDSR, it is a well-needed uplift in combat power.

[Sgt.Slabber]

Also in the torygraff.

Tanks 'needed to fight Taliban' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/8212290/Tanks-needed-to-fight-Taliban.html)

The move follows a decision by the US to send a similar number of heavy Abrams tanks.

Following the fekkin cousins like sheep, again :ugh:

What's the betting that the RoE will make them impossible to use effectively? :mad:

[althenick]

Secondly, and pertaining to this forum, is this not a blatant case of Army Reationary Protectionism? Given that "40% of the Army's Challenger 2 tanks are due to be axed"

... Something that the RAF would never even dream of in a million years eh? :hmm: Black buck anyone? :rolleyes:

[Easy Street]

If it's firepower the army are after, why don't they make better use of the stacks and stacks of air assets (including AH) armed with precision-guided weapons that orbit daily over Helmand? Given the small distances involved, there's always something within a few minutes' flying time, which means that the required 'smack' can be laid down in much less time than it takes to roll out a Chally - which at the end of the day is unguided artillery on tracks...

And TTH's point about the multitude of UOR armoured vehicles is well made; what a waste of time that all was, if the answer was sat in Germany all along.

[Mr C Hinecap]

multitude of UOR armoured vehicles is well made; what a waste of time that all was, if the answer was sat in Germany all along.

Not really - tanks are not known for their troop carrying ability nor their ability to carry supplies - or even their ability to squeeze through narrow streets. They need different vehicles for different things - and a blast-resisting hull on a troop carrier is not a tank.

[Diablo Rouge]

In WW1 & WW2 tanks towed trailers with supplies on board, even if the said supplies was ammo for their own gun barrels. They also had flails which would safely detonate an IED ahead of the tank.

[Jayand]

Am not sure what your point is? if it is protectionism then good for them, why not try and look after your assets no matter how cynical it may appear, if the government buy into it then jobs a goodun, perhaps the RAF could learn a few albeit late lessons in how to defend themselves from the chop.

[Diablo Rouge]

perhaps the RAF could learn a few albeit late lessons in how to defend themselves from the chop.

I doubt that; regardless of what the Army do in the next 4 years they will suffer the mother of all choppings post Afghanistan. Any tactical gesturing should have been done prior to SDSR because the horse has already hightailed it across the fields with the stable door wide open. The tragedy is that tactical or strategic thinking may well explore alternative and sucessfull avenues that will receive no thanks whatsoever in the coming years.

[Leo Sayer]

Lets just look at the recent form of the light blue:


Tornado out to Op Herrick, "lets make it look useful"
RAF desire to scrap Harrier (Read desire to scrap FAA fixed wing)
Resistance to transfer of Merlin to RN
Continuous counter briefing


Protectionism from the Army?

RAF: "Pot calling kettle, over"

Now don't get me wrong, the Tonka does offer a great deal in theatre and the Harrier fleet may have been broken. I also believe that you only make true savings, which we must make, by getting rid of fleets in toto.
What does grate is the way in which the RAF pursue a protectionist policy and conducts a no holds barred campaign to safeguard its future at the expense of the other services.

I just wish that all three services could work together to form a cohesive plan that takes into account the economic constraints and places the British Armed Forces as a credible military at the correct level on the world stage.

[helidriver]

"If it's firepower the army are after, why don't they make better use of the stacks and stacks of air assets (including AH) armed with precision-guided weapons that orbit daily over Helmand?"

Because it has little to do with firepower, you can't seize and hold the ground with aviation. Aviation, however, can set the conditions to do so. It's all about the joint effect rather than my asset is better or more useful than yours!!

h

[newt]

Just one question really!! How do you get them into theatre? Drive them up the Kyber??:confused:

[Army Mover]

Just one question really!! How do you get them into theatre?

C17 can carry an Abrahams; not sure about Challenger though.

[BEagle]

No problemo, newt:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/tank.jpg
Pongos, your new chariots await you! Now, get fell in and stand properly at ease....

[Two's in]

The most valuable lesson to be learned here is that snivelling like a 4-year old because Johnny got the ball (again) doesn't actually help your argument much. Somebody made a good case for the benefit of CR2 in Theatre and now it's out there - what a radical concept for the deployment of defence assets.

[F3sRBest]

'No plans' for UK tanks in Helmand - Defence Management (http://www.defencemanagement.com/news_story.asp?id=15047)

Spurious spin?

[Mr C Hinecap]

In WW1 & WW2 tanks towed trailers with supplies on board, even if the said supplies was ammo for their own gun barrels. They also had flails which would safely detonate an IED ahead of the tank.

Was that just a lesson about WW2 or does it have any connection to this discussion about Afghanistan?
Flails were for mines, not IEDs - just to make a tiny correction there.

[draken55]

Army Mover

By sea might more obvious way. Guess that would need a friendly port in Pakistan:oh:

By chartered Antonov?

[barnstormer1968]

Easy Street.

When you say "If it's firepower the army are after, why don't they make better use of the stacks and stacks of air assets (including AH) armed with precision-guided weapons that orbit daily over Helmand? Given the small distances involved, there's always something within a few minutes' flying time, which means that the required 'smack' can be laid down in much less time than it takes to roll out a Chally - which at the end of the day is unguided artillery on tracks..."

Do you actually have much knowledge of the Chally2?

You make a fair point about the use of air power to react to situations, as long as you are happy for folks on the ground to have to wait many minutes longer for their fire power support. Have limited support, which will run out of fuel sooner or later (as will the Chally, but its 24 hours on station is somewhat useful, and almost limitless in a 'mobile firebase). The main gun on a modern MTB is also very effective for many uses in our current theatres, plus the baddies will often not be able to see the MTB to be able to fire back at it with RPG's etc (and lets face it, the Chally is more able to cope with RPG's than an Aapache!).

The British army has a good experience of using MTB's in fairly static locations to provide fire support, and as far as I see this, it's a win win situation for everyone.

Folks on the ground get added firepower on call (which is very accurate, even against moving targets). We get to save money by using cheaper ordnance. We also end up with air assets more able to concentrate on more distant attack and MERT cover.

The downside is that thanks to Noo labours penny pinching, the Chally2 is not as good a sandy environment weapon as it could be!

All just IMHO of course.

[soprano54]

Given the small distances involved, there's always something within a few minutes' flying time, which means that the required 'smack' can be laid down in much less time than it takes to roll out a Chally - which at the end of the day is unguided artillery on tracks...


My bold - Utter bolleux!:ugh:

[Rakshasa]

Classic case of journos doing what journos do best; take a few facts then make the rest up.

Seems someone has been reading the ARRSE thread discussing this possiblity, that came on the back of the USMC deployment and has then made the story out of whole cloth. :rolleyes:

[Thelma Viaduct]

Just one question really!! How do you get them into theatre? Drive them up the Kyber??http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif

Stealth blimp.

[Boslandew]

Chally? Come on guys, that must be the naffest abbreviation yet. Surely we can do better than that.

[Roadster280]

Challenger (1 & 2) universally known as Chally in Bovington & its outstations.

About as "official" as Chinooks being Wokkas or Hercules being Alberts.

[Hedgeporker]

Some utterly bonk-ignorant comments on here.

1. Tanks are good for hearts and minds in a place like Afghanistan. They, like the Iraqis, do not respect behaviour of a pansy-like manner. Might is right etc etc. Bring up the Russians as often as you like, but try to remember that they experienced quite a different level of opposition as they simply killed anything that moved.

2. Challies have a sophisticated sensor array which would make it very handy bit of organic ISTAR for the troops.

3. The cannon is very accurate indeed (here's a clue : computerised ballistics), with HESH rounds costing a fraction of what Javelin or airborne bangs cost.

4. Chally hasn't been deployed on the grounds of cost and airbridge capacity / priority.

This isn't to say that they're infallible, since nothing is too big for an IED.

It's all moot anyway because we're pulling out soon. :hmm:

[Boslandew]

Roadster

I'll take your word for it. The names Challenger/Centurion/Conqueror were picked because they sound rugged. 'Chally' sounds more like someones genteel tennis partner than the ultimate piece of heavy metal.

Only marginally better than 'Wokka' which sounds like the sort of thing journalists dream up to show how much 'in the know' they are after they've been for a flight in a 'giant combat chopper!'

[glad rag]

Trophy APS on operational tank (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?158584-Trophy-APS-on-operational-tank)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RPG-29_USGov.JPG

[barnstormer1968]

Well, if you don't like Wokka, then there was always Chinny....
Along with Gimpy, ubrey (well, UBRE), 4 tonney, landy, rangy, milly, and for oldies, the Stolly!

[Boslandew]

Hi Barnstormer

Funny thing about nicknames, some work because they just are so right, Gimpy, others don't because they just sound as thought they've been 'made up'. Its a personal thing I guess. Wokka and Chally just sound naff to me.

Milly and Stolly?? You've got me there

[helidriver]

milly- 9mm pistol
stolly- Alvis Stalwart six wheel drive utility vehicle
:ok:

h

[Two's in]

Call me an old Badger, but isn't a nickname a jocular, and often deprecating, name given to someone or something based upon its character traits or reputation. Surely in the examples above all we've done is add the letter "y" to the end instead of the original name ending.

Mr Picky

[BEagle]

I thought 'Milly' was the nickname 'barny68' gave to a grenade? As in Mills bomb...:\

'Stolly', or rather 'Stoli' is surely Stolichnaya vodka ( Столичная )?

Stalwart - a most impressive beast! When 99 Entry RAFC went for a 5-day visit to BAOR, the Army gave us a trip in the back of one. It would go just about anywhere! There was a story that some grunt stole one to get home across the Channel, but his navigation wasn't very good and he ended up a few miles down the coast from where he'd set off...:uhoh:

[Finningley Boy]

Quote:
Secondly, and pertaining to this forum, is this not a blatant case of Army Reationary Protectionism? Given that "40% of the Army's Challenger 2 tanks are due to be axed"
... Something that the RAF would never even dream of in a million years eh? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif Black buck anyone? :rolleyes:
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=6132438)

I don't think the decision to send the Vulcan down to the South Atlantic was a last ditch attempt to avoid the chop. The V-Force had its Gold Clock by then already. The Tornado GR1 was already coming off the press and 9 sqn was already working up with the type at Honington. You can say what you like about John Nott's defence cuts blunder regarding the Navy, but the Tonkas were running off the production line and crews converting with quite some pace.:ok:

One interesting thought about the Challenger 2 though is; I thought Sir David Richardshad already determined that heavy armour, along with the R.A.Fs fast and noisy stuff were cold war anachronyisms? No longer relevant to all the wars we're expecting in the future which will all be just like fighting the Taliban?:}

FB:)

[barnstormer1968]

Two's in.
While I did choose nicknames that end in a 'Y' sound, these were only to fit in with the Chally theme. We could of course add: gat; willy peter; smudger; long or even humble 'tree beater' to milly and gimpy:)

But concentrating on the better value items of kit, do we still use 'dixies'?

Sorry for thread drift.

[Biggus]

Don't forget "tilly".....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilly_(vehicle)

....although it is going back a bit...

[minigundiplomat]

Wokka and Chally just sound naff to me.



Working safe in the knowledge that I don't give a giraffes crap what you think; the term Wokka has been around for years, decribes the sound - not the aircraft and doesn't end in Y.

[GreenKnight121]

YouTube - Fozzy Bear-Wocka Wocka (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0yoPV3tgG8&feature=related)

[Two's in]

But concentrating on the better value items of kit, do we still use 'dixies'?


If you mean the large containers for food used in field kitchens, yes we do.

[Al R]

How USMC operates MBT out there.

http://defensetech.org/2010/12/17/marines-want-tanks-for-route-security/

[barnstormer1968]

Hi two's in.

Sorry for any confusion, but I was referring to the galvanized steel dustbin (trashcan) looking thing on feet, that had a chimney set into it, and was used to heat water.

For large food containers used in field kitchens, we used an insulated metal box known as a 'hay box', and for liquid, large flasks known as Norwegians.

[Two's in]

I remember the "woof" from the trash can water heaters as you finally managed to reach ignition point on some, by now, very hot kero. Just to establish my tartan flask and cagoul credentials, weren't the insulated containers the hay box and the vessels inside the dixies? Anyone can be a spotter, but it takes details to be professional grade boring,

[NURSE]

Challanger wasn't deployed for political reasons not the image Nu Lab wanted to project. Supported by Generals from the Maroon machine who believe anything that can't be thrown out the back of a herc is useless.
The Light is right mentality that swept the Army post SDR has cost lives and the sooner it is corrected the better. There will always be a place for heavy armour wether the Paras like it or not. After Al Faw the marines were very keen on Challanger.
The Army is actually to small and out of balance to be easily corrected in the short term but the treasury see it as an easy source for cuts and when we leave Afghanistan the next "Peace Dividend" will see the army slashed further wonder what size airforce will be needed to support that?
less than is already planned!

[Evalu8ter]

Nurse,
The peace dividend post Afg (aka the 2015 SDR) will cut the army to the size that we actually can support with the AT/SH forces we'll have, at a stroke closing the lift gap identified by the NAO - genius!!

[Army Mover]

For large food containers used in field kitchens, we used an insulated metal box known as a 'hay box', .....
The "dixie" part was the metal container inside the hay-box.

I do recall the water-heaters you refer to, but don't have a clue what they were called, down the blunt end you got to wash in what you carried on your belt, unless you were unlucky enough to be going anywhere near RHQ. :eek:

[Canadian Break]

Barns

It was called a "lazyman" and was a dustbin, with a length of pipe welded/attached to the top of the lid, which was then put, inverted, onto the dustbin. There was also a "spout" welded/attached to the side of the bin, about 9" down from the top. Fill with cold water and apply heat source to bottom of said "lazyman". When hot water was required simply pour in cold through the inverted lid and hot would come out of the spout. Simples. Regards to all; CB.:D
Clearly, they were locally manufactured!

[floppyjock]

I always knew them as "Canadian Burners" and you'll still find them in Coy/Sqn stores.

Here they call them Puffin Billy
YouTube - puffin billy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFB5cjPqK1M&feature=related)

Floppy

[barnstormer1968]

Thanks for the three posts above.

Yes, the item in the clip is what we are all probably talking about, albeit calling it a different name!

In my regiment they were known as dixies, and on the rare occasions I was ever in a position to use them they were a godsend for 'washing water' on cold days.:ok:

Army mover.
I take your point about RHQ's, and SHQ's for that matter. It was always bizarre to come into a large location after spending some time out in the field. I would be happy to be able to take off my boots for the very first time in two weeks, and would have to listen to someone moaning about how they had been served a hot chicken meal for two days in a row:} How very harsh for them:E

[NURSE]

wasn't the reducing the Army to what we can support the aim of

Options for Change
Frontline First
SDR
Ammendment to SDR
and finally the current exercise
and when
Northern Ireland wound up Peace dividend
FRY Peace dividend
And in 2015 another peace dividend

all of the above were meant to cut the army to what we can support but has been revealed the treasury has never funded the full number of LSN's in the army so I wonder what the shortfall in places to funding will be post 2015?

[NURSE]

good old echleon mortar
can't remember how many cooks i've had to treat for facial burns.
When you look at what they replaced you think why the H3ll did we ever buy them!

[floppyjock]

We still have them. I saw them in a CQMS stores 2 months ago.

Floppy

[Al R]

Ah, the old homemade mortar. You would never have caught me mortaring the WRAF Block at Akr by using thunderflashes, lighter fluid, bodge tape (black nasty for the army) and beer tins either, no sirree.

Given its ongoing diversification though, I wonder if the army will find a use for this?

BBC News - The new vehicle set to revolutionise the skies (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12110386)

[NURSE]

floppyjock
you still have soyer cookers in your QM's?
story was last ones in British service went down on the Atlantic Convoyer

Have used them since leaving service and they so much better than the echelon mortat/puffin billy. Much more flexible as well you can cook on them to. They burn wood,coal,charcoal,peat are easier and safer to light. down side they are a bit bigger. But served the military well from Crimean war to the early 90's

[andyy]

By FB:

"One interesting thought about the Challenger 2 though is; I thought Sir David Richardshad already determined that heavy armour, along with the R.A.Fs fast and noisy stuff were cold war anachronyisms? No longer relevant to all the wars we're expecting in the future which will all be just like fighting the Taliban".

Talking of Cold War weaponry - Apache? A geat bit of kit, but very definately designed for the Cold War.

[floppyjock]

Nurse

Never heard off or seen a soyer cooker. Not surprised the last went down with the Atlantic Convoyer. Every excuse the army gave for years for not having something was " it went down on the Atlantic Convoyer " No wonder it sank with all that kit it had on board.

Floppy

[NURSE]

29th Field Kitchen | (http://www.freewebs.com/29thfieldkitchen/armycookers.htm)

good pic of soyer cooker on here.

[Yozzer]

Our hot water boiler must have had some growing up to do because we did not call it "lazyman", we called it "lazyboy"! These days it would have to be lazyperson.

[Canadian Break]

Yozzer, only if you are "PC" - not much chance of that on this site- thank God (sorry, there are other deieties available - just so I don't offend someone - oh bugger - is that me being PC? I'll be sure to have a word with myself!). So, lazyman it is then?;)

[the_boy_syrup]

Just wondered if anyone saw this inth Sun today

Sun man joins patrol in Afghanistan badlands | The Sun |News|Campaigns|Our Boys (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/3333205/Sun-man-joins-patrol-in-Afghanistan-badlands.html)

"Acting second-in-command Capt Chris Lambe, 27 - shot in the knee during another battle in 2009 - said: "It was the mother of all firefights in this spot - the heaviest contact we have seen." The Allied forces were pinned down for 20 minutes in a tree-lined irrigation ditch.

Colour Sergeant Ian Green, 37, said: "We returned fire but they shot back at us which is unusual. They usually shoot and scoot."
One Afghan soldier was dazed when a grenade exploded nearby.


Danish troops supporting the Brits and Afghans opened up from Leopard tanks. And the overwhelmed Taliban fighters eventually fled"

They are a force multiplyer and perhaps the powers that be decided that it might be better to provide some of our own MBT's rather than let them rust away in Catterick

[Green Flash]

Danish troops supporting the Brits and Afghans opened up from Leopard tanks. And the overwhelmed Taliban fighters eventually fled"

I don't know about you but if I saw a bunch of Vikings steaming towards me in a tank then I'd have the old flip flops going 10 to the dozen; they wouldn't have to fire at me! :eek:

[TurbineTooHot]

BBC News - UK troops deployed to Afghanistan 'to avoid cuts' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12186888)

Wasn't just me then...........

[draken55]

It's never a good thing for the blame game to start when fighting is on going. Given the plethora of books that have been published, those interested in more background gen might wish to refer to "A Million Bullets" by James Ferguson.

[Mr C Hinecap]

It is a shame the above-linked story hasn't had better coverage. It does reflect thinking (at least away from HQ Land) that the 6 month 'rotational amnesia' is screwing us over and is good for nothing other than Staff Officer development.