Training Pipeline Clogged

[tutgby]

I've heard a rather distressing rumour that as the training pipeline is so full of baby aircrew, there is a massive excess of training pilots to slots at the end of the pipeline, and so about 100 ab-initios are going to be chopped from various stages of training.

Any truth to this?

[GlobalTravellerAT]

Planning a type change or re muster, if not then what's your concern??

[PPRuNeUser0211]

I'm going to go with - he doesn't want to be one of the hundred!

[Blighter Pilot]

Student pilots at IOT, Shawbury and other trg locations being offered re-branching, NCA or P45.

[Neptunus Rex]

It has happened before. In the mid '60s there were cutbacks, and an edict went out to the FTSs. Any students who had taken more that 'n' Flex hours (not sure how many) were to be chopped, unless their Flight Commander could guarantee that they would graduate 'above average.'

As a result, one of my old friends was scrubbed from his Jet Provost course. Ironically, it might have saved his life. He became a Fighter Controller and collapsed one night over his radar screen. The Docs discovered that he had Type 1 Diabetes.

[Pontius Navigator]

pipeline clogged?

A blockage of some sort, like a sewer? Full of sh1te?

And offered NCA as in there is a shortage of NCA?

If you have the skills and aptitude for pilot and the OQs to match, but not slot, the answer seems obvious. Go somewhere that you can use your skills. Sticking around in some other branch or trade as a frustrated pilot is not going to cut the mustard.

[Biggus]

With the demise of the MRA4 I thought there was a surplus of NCA, not a shortage.....



I also thought there was now a surplus of WSOs, for whom "re-branching" was one of the possible options under consideration...

[Pontius Navigator]

Biggus, I agree. I think it is a rumour sloshing around that blocked pipe and not in the real world.

[AdLib]

Pontious,

not the preferred side of the z-shed this morning? All true but give the chaps (and chapes's these days I understand) some slack, especially as they've had the rug pulled out from under them in the cruellest way.

[Blighter Pilot]

The re-branching to NCA was offered to the senior Shawbury cse only - NCA or out.

40 pilots on IOT took the P45.

IPS for ME Pilot trg 11/12 = 28!

[Easy Street]

40 pilots on IOT took the P45.

Crikey! The front line have been asking "PTC" to slow down the delivery of new pilots since at least 2007; no-one listened and now it sounds like a big knee-jerk is in progress... anyone want to bet on there being a mid-90s-style swing to a sudden shortage in a couple of years?!

[GlobalTravellerAT]

Which cse was offered this, only interested as I'm at strawberry now and haven't seen anything of the sort as of yet!! Rumor mill going into over drive, doesn't really help anyone- does it!!

[cazatou]

GTAT

This is a RUMOUR NETWORK!!!!

[PPRuNeUser0211]

I'm pretty confident the re-branch to NCA rumour is a total red herring... (especially the "senior cse at Shawbs" bit)

The rest though sounds pretty true!

[KeyPilot]

A lot of people are asserting that some radical (indeed unprecedented) developments have taken place, but without stating their sources. E.g. commissioned pilot to NCA? This sounds weird. Has this ever happened before??

I know this is a rumour network, but could you guys help us all separate fact and fiction by saying how you heard what you write? E.g. "I heard down the pub that..." and "I was on the course that..."

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

anyone want to bet on there being a mid-90s-style swing to a sudden shortage in a couple of years?!

I don't think you'd get great odds on that! I was one of the beneficiaries of that last sudden shortage - just missed out being in the backlog generation through sheer good fortune, and made it through training with minimal delays. I wonder if the Backlog Newsletter will make a re-appearance...

[just another jocky]

I know this is a rumour network, but could you guys help us all separate fact and fiction by saying how you heard what you write? E.g. "I heard down the pub that..." and "I was on the course that..."

I recently read on a website that "re-branching to NCA was offered to the senior Shawbury cse only - NCA or out.

40 pilots on IOT took the P45.

IPS for ME Pilot trg 11/12 = 28!" :}

[rusty_monkey]

I don't know about any cuts but we have considerably more holding officers and NCA at my location some of them doing jobs that are definetely not in their primary job discription. When chatting to the ones I have, the story is all the same, big backlog (2-6months) until there are slots availiable for them in phase 2 training. Some have done 55 Sqn and are waiting type/class courses some are straight from cranditz. None of them have mentioned people being chopped, other than the normal tales of woe.

I have spoken to a pal at cranditz and they have formulated training/outward bounds/personal development courses for those with long holds, so at least they are getting something out of it.

[Sideshow Bob]

E.g. commissioned pilot to NCA? This sounds weird. Has this ever happened before??

I know of one (failed pilot) but he went straight to commissioned Airman Aircrew (as it was then) as he already had a commission.

[JTIDS]

There is a rumour floating round that 55 Sqn is about to close and that will be the end of Commissioned WSO training as we know it... all NCA WSO training to be taken over by 45 Sqn...

I admit it seems unlikely but...

On the commissioned chaps becoming NCA... I've know a few people who've done it, but it was because they got chopped through flying training, and decided to re-branch. They all lost their commissions when they did it.

[RookiePilot]

At a recent squadron function I chatted to a few old friends now on IOT. The pilot branch lad was full of doom and gloom, he claimed that seventy five percent of the last 60(r) course were offered either sixteen month holds or redundancy, and things looked really bad for him. The ABM branch lad was understandably smug. For myself going into IOT in 2011 I have a suspicion that I might just be OK, narrowly avoiding the kneejerk pilot pogroms, but I'm touching a heck of a lot of wood, and preparing contingency plans.

Has anybody else heard much else?:confused:

[camelspyyder]

You are hopelessly over-optimistic young man.

All the WSO students, bar the senior course who were about to graduate, were given an arbitrary chop before Xmas and the pilot trainees do not seem to be getting away with it either.

There is NO guarantee that a place on IOT will ever get your bum on the seat of a military aircraft.

CS:(

[rock34]

IIRC, Regt still recruiting for Officers! If you think you're good enough to pass JROC...... :E

[scottyhs]

At a recent squadron function I chatted to a few old friends now on IOT. The pilot branch lad was full of doom and gloom, he claimed that seventy five percent of the last 60(r) course were offered either sixteen month holds or redundancy, and things looked really bad for him.

I'd check your facts on this........

I.E. its wrong!

[MAD Boom]

Care to enlighten those that are not as informed as you then Scott(y) H-S?

[valveclosed]

So offering movement in to a trade group (NCA) that is looking at getting rid of people! how does that work?

really gonna hack off those NCA that lose there jobs

[camelspyyder]

I dont think so. NCA recruiting is closed.

CS

[scottyhs]

Care to enlighten those that are not as informed as you then Scott(y) H-S?

Yeh, the last 60(R) course were not offered redundancy.

[Admin_Guru]

Yeh, the last 60(R) course were not offered redundancy.
That will be half an answer then. So what were they offered?

[RookiePilot]

You are hopelessly over-optimistic young man.

All the WSO students, bar the senior course who were about to graduate, were given an arbitrary chop before Xmas and the pilot trainees do not seem to be getting away with it either.

There is NO guarantee that a place on IOT will ever get your bum on the seat of a military aircraft.

CShttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif

Damn, that sounds scary. Like I said, I'll be touching a lot of wood, and drawing up contingency plans (probably the RAAF - their website says that pilot is a priority job so I'm hoping they're not in quite a bad state as we are)

[floating_rock]

To add a wee bit of meat onto Scotty's post.

One of the current courses which started at 60 sqn in early autumn have only managed a couple of flights apiece, have been told to come back from leave at the end of January, but not to expect to fly until June / July time due to a backlog on OCUs which is to be cleared before 60 carry on normal jogging.

[Arty Fufkin]

If you do get told to expect a big hold, don't worry. In the early 90's I held for a total of three and a half years between courses and it didn't do me any harm.........Apart from that liver damage thing and a minor dose of the clap.
The devil makes work .........

[Pontius Navigator]

Arty, and the cynic injection and the career break - you would be over 55 before you could be considered for CAS.

[Arty Fufkin]

Eh?

I never really wanted to be CAS. Mind you, I'm not a nav, so I've got better things to be getting along with.

Take the hold, get paid, get to be a pilot. It's ace!

[camelspyyder]

...if only the long hold was still on offer. Short/medium term pilot trainee requirements are looking so low that it may be that large numbers will be disposed of (to any other available branch (non-aircrew) or possibly outside).

CS

[Uncle Ginsters]

Sounds like the perfect opportunity to re-endow Ops posts with aircrew - the Ops Spt branch was only formed when there weren't enough aircrew to man them anyway :ok:

[ScribblyBloke]

CS,

The first Tranche of redundancies is likely to include c100-200 ab-initio pilots, 150 WSOps, 50 ME WSOs, some fast jet WSOs & loads of TG1! Watch this space.......! :sad:

SB

[Biggus]

SB,

I think you'll find that at least some of the numbers you have quoted are the target figures for the whole redundancy period.

Now whether they will "front load" tranche 1 in order to achieve exits as fast as possible I don't know, but would be surprised if it included numbers as high as you have indicated. One would have to ask what is the point/need for tranches 2 and 3 (I realize it is not just about aircrew...!!) if you are going to achieve all your planned redundancies in tranche 1......

[Admin_Guru]

Biggus,

Whilst I can see the logic of your comments, however they have to be balanced by the knowledge of two entire fleets being scrapped and an awfull lot of people already on gardening leave. With the best will in the world, there are redundancy ripe individuals without portfolio, and sadly sooner rather then later may be the optimal way forward.

In fact it will be a credit to the chaps at Manning if they are able to sucessfully sort this out within timeframe. Though if rushed, mistakes will be made and assets to service (good people) lost.

[Pontius Navigator]

For some being pushed early might be better than hanging on and getting pushed late.

Traditionally tranche 1 cleaves the majority and tranche 2 does a fine tune with tranche 3 clearing up some who have a useful job in the near term.

Equally traditionally the axe will prove too blunt and holes will appear where none were expected.

[STANDTO]

what
a
bl00dy
mess...........................

[Trim Stab]

If you do get told to expect a big hold, don't worry. In the early 90's I held for a total of three and a half years between courses and it didn't do me any harm.........Apart from that liver damage thing and a minor dose of the clap.



I'd suggest you don't follow AF's example. If you are put on hold, make the best use of it you can. There are still great courses to get yourself onto, which will be a big advantage later in your career.

I'd suggest that if you are a serious young RAF officer on hold, that you try to get on French courses - and keep demanding them until manning take you off gardening leave. A knowledge of French will be a great advantage over the next thirty years or so.

If you can't get on a French course, then apply for the AACC - that dagger on your shoulder will give you a lot of credibility later in your career.

Even if those options don't appeal, there are loads of other courses you can apply for that will be of great benefit later in your career. And the more courses you apply for and complete, the more likely you are to be selected to resume flight training.

[Tourist]

Trim Stab

I completely disagree.

Whilst on hold you should kick the arse out of it so that all the old buggers with work to do can live vicariously through your exploits.
Plenty of time for work later.
So I'm told.

[wazz'n'zoom]

The RAF SH/SAR force require only 4 new pilots for the whole of 2011; fact from the mouth of Comdt DHFS at his end of year forum.
Current annual output from Sixty (R) Sqn is 56 pilots per annum.
A cold light of day fact I'm afraid.
We will hear the RAFs decision on the 2012 pilot requiremnt at the end of Jan 2011.

[frodo_monkey]

Trim Stab - I'm sorry, but aren't you a STAB military aviation wannabe?! Had a career in HM Forces?

[[email protected]]

So with the Merlin OCF taking no students, the Puma OCF closed for a year and the SARF preparing to be wound down it doesn't look like Shawbury have much of a choice but to chop masses of students - maybe if they hadn't ramped up the trg system over the last couple of years there might not be such a glut.

Strangely, most guys and girls on the front-line could see this coming but those in the higher pay bands didn't/wouldn't/couldn't listen. If all the assets are on the front line and the very few in UK are frequently U/S, it shouldn't take a genius to see a problem looming and slow down the trg system - but, sadly, Air Cdre left hand doesn't talk to Gp Capt right hand and no-one can admit the system is broken because it might affect promotion prospects:ugh:

Won't 2011 be fun? Not!

[Biggus]

No doubt, with all the current ongoing contractual issues, the closure of SARF will slip to the right, and in 18-24 months time we will be short of helicopter pilots once again...





But why aren't the Merlin and Puma training systems taking new pilots. No requirement? Lack of serviceable airframes increasing training time for those they already have?

[GlobalTravellerAT]

I'm currently cross decking from the multi world to the SH force am I must say 2 things, firstly I'm glad I'm on a course now and not waiting for one and secondly, the fact that I'm on a course means sod all as the axe will be flying on 60 sqn very soon. Worrying times ahead.

Trim stab, what on earth use in latter career for a young JO is doing the AACC?

Happy new year

[Farfrompuken]

Well, I'd predict that the pipeline will be flushed out just in time for a surge in exits to the commercial market; the push factors are there and the pull factors are about to materialise.

We'll have wound down the system and face a significant shortfall on the front line.

Oh well, nothing like history repeating itself!

[Spot 4]

Trim stab, what on earth use in latter career for a young JO is doing the AACC?

Badge collector: He would also reccomend a para course if he had a chance.

....or a 31 day det to Afghan to collect a medal. As several people do.

[Hueymeister]

It's going to be interesting, and manning are going to be busy if they want to get it right. Slamming the Trg pipelines shut is a mistake and the powers that be know that. I'm currently competing for AEF places with MERLIN/Puma OCF studes on indefinite holds. If guys end up on holds, do as much AT as you can, do some esoteric courses, but don't waste your valuable time....

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

the axe will be flying on 60 sqn very soon


Perhaps the only thing flying...

If the student numbers at Shawbury are going to be reduced, that will leave a lot of instructors with not a lot to do...ripe for redistribution, perhaps? Deep joy all round...

[minigundiplomat]

Although probably in reduced numbers, inflow to the Chinook OCF needs to keep going for the Force to just stand still. Expansion at Odiham is just around the corner, and I wouldnt write DHFS off just yet.

As for the instructors being ripe for redistribution (very communist); many are civvies, and of the military instructors, many have nailed parts of their body to LFA9.

[indie cent]

Happy New Year all.
Ignore Stab's: "I'd suggest that if you are a serious young RAF officer on hold, that you try to get on" ...!

This is hoop.

Listen to Tourist!

Way better to have as much fun as you can summon.
As a holding bod, the career stream is an absolute dead end. Watch for assurances to the contrary!

And anyway, we're here for a good time. Not a long time.

ic

[Pontius Navigator]

As for the instructors being ripe for redistribution (very communist); many are civvies, and of the military instructors, many have nailed parts of their body to LFA9.

NB the wise words from Admin Guru above:

there are redundancy ripe individuals without portfolio

and the equally wise words from Farfrompuken:

We'll have wound down the system and face a significant shortfall on the front line.

As for career stream hold, in about 1988 we had a pilot holding pre-advance phase. He held in Ops for a number of months. His ambition was to fly Typhoon. I last saw him at Leeming around 2003; he was a sqn ldr OC AEF. He never got to fly the Tiffy but at least it didn't stop a good egg making sqn ldr.

[[email protected]]

For the potential holdees - ask to hold on a SAR flt as you will be in a helicopter environment, learn about SAR, get some flying in and still have time off for AT.

The downside is you will lose all desire to go SH:ok:

[MaroonMan4]

Crab,

Regarding your post, but maybe to add a bit of balance we cannot slag off senior officers and PMA too much - lets not forget that only 13 months ago the Rotary Wing Strategy was announced in Parliament by the then Prime Minister himself - including the purchase of 22 shiney new wokkas.

We all know the lead in time for a frontline CR wokka pilot, let alone any increase to those involved in more specialised niche roles.

If we had been staring at our tummy buttons with 22 new aircraft and not enough aircrew to fly them (as per the Army having to place AH into storage) then we would have been too quick to say that the senior management should have primed the the training pipe line sooner.

However, what is really being missed here is the link between the airline and private aviation industry with the future for supply and demand. Is anyone looking at Flight International - Dubai Airlines, Ethiad and that is without the emerging markets of South East Asia. As to the European airlines, they too are just riding out this storm and are actively engaged in demographic modeling against their future business cases - all flexible and which can be put into place at the drop of HRs hat - especially when the aviation industry is acutely aware that many of the current pilot HR pool are (generally speaking) those self made individuals that have thrown money at the problem (i.e. accepted the significant type rating fees, long term handcuffs and low salary) in comparison to the historical aircrew pool of self improvers whom built their experience through PPL, becoming flying instructors and working up to becoming an airline pilot with a solid and varied aviation experience foundation (rather than the self made individual jumping straight in as First Pilot with the very basic requirement achieved in the shortest possible time). Many in the aviation industry are beginning to correlations between the increase in aircraft accidents and incidents with the experience levels of their aircrew (quelle surprise!).

My point being that once again experienced military aircrew with known career paths, log books and flying standards will soon become a much sought after commodity that the key driver of the airline industry will be ready to throw money at to lure at a moments notice - and that is without the morale factor of the austerity measures and continued global operations (not just Afghan, potentially the Middle East, Ivory Coast and Korea all look highly possible between now and the next Defence Review.

The key issue is that the military manning levers will never ever be able to keep up (and compete) with the private aviation sector.

Lets add other factors to pure demographics and airline double digit growth - which sane minded young, bright, enthusiastic, talented and capable young person is really going to opt for a career in military aviation on leaving school/university? The negative PR and low morale due to the rushed and Treasury led Defence Review will result in the best talent going else where, and H M Forces struggling to get the right calibre through the career offices doors and into cockpits of tomorrow's military aircraft - and that is without any potential reversal of some of the rushed and crass decisions that have just been made by (what I believe) has been a hoodwinked Prime Minister led astray. Lets (hypothetically) say that a UK national MPA capability is to be re-instated, or that the Harrier (or some other carrier borne) capability is suddenly recognised as essential to the UK's National Security interests - where will these aircrew suddenly come from when the Politicians of tomorrow suddenly realise (with a cold sweat) what rushed decisions they made in 2010.

Chopping the training pipeline now is like removing the insurance policy for the future. Previous posters are so right - we have been here before - Project MARLYN (Manning and Recruitment in the Lean Years of the Nineties) was published in the late 1980s, but was ignored which resulted in the long term shortage of aircrew and subsequent divisive and unnecessary FRIs having to be used to assist the previously poor strategic manning levers.

From a rotary perspective, the Merlin and Puma OCFs being full is as much a part of us ensuring that the Fisheads get nowhere near our SH - we all know that they would open it in a heart beat if we gave them a chance. As to the wokka - we not only have our extra aircraft inbound, but also the whole upgrades to get through.

Again the key point that the requirement for CR trained SH aircrew has and will not go away (even if the Afghan withdrawal timeline goes to plan and there are no other international conflicts or 'peace support' operations) , we still need to keep the pipeline churning out potential (SH) pilots - and that is without any more push factors from the austere Treasury and the increasing pull factors from the private sector that will result in a Voluntary Outflow that none of the military manning organisations will be able to keep up with or reduce......it will be all too late by then.

[VinRouge]

Little prediction of what awaits:

Lots of "old wood" (read experience) will be forced out between now and 2015. When I say "old wood", I mean people that have flown missions outside of Afghanistan and Iraq. So not really "experienced", but at least "capable".

Cuts will go too far. Airlines globally go into recruiting overdrive between 2012 and 2015, partly to replace those due to be pensioned, partly as a result of increased global demand, in particular, in the middle east and far east.

Training pipelines (IPS for ME I believe has been cut back to around 22 next year) will not be able to get back up to speed in time to match the massive number now P*ssed off due to axed exes, potential cuts to fp during ground tours and generally getting hammered for dets/flying.
People wont mind getting hammered for flying however, as every hour in the log book is an hour closer to a civilian cockpit with better pay and at least some ability to plan life around work.

A400m/A330 start delivery (A400 at 1-2 jets per month), at the same time BA and virgin are recieving large orders for 787 and A380. A400m/330 will require lots of pilots and NCA over a 2 year timeframe.

Unfortunately, the only people left are threadders with their lot in life, and the only way they will get them to stay will be large cash bungs. Queue new FRI by 2015.

If I said I know of numerous first tourist pilots seeing the writing on the wall (read no retours) currently sitting their ATPLs with a view for an exit asap, I would not be making it up.

Hey, whoever said if you dont have a sense of humour, dont join up was absolutely right! But the government need to also understand that although a reduction in the structural deficit is vital, if they do it in a more controlled and considered manner, they can reduce costs over a 10 year timescale, far more savings and far better value for money.

[[email protected]]

MM4 - I'm not sure how your post defends senior officers or PMA.

How does having career-minded, ambitious people in key posts who are happy to keep smiling upwards and telling their seniors everything is rosy help? They know in 2 years they are out of the job and the next sucker gets the poisoned chalice - officer A gets promoted for keeping things on an even keel, officer B(his replacement) gets promoted for sorting out a sack of sh*t that every one else knew existed but only came to light after officer A left post. We have been doing this in the RAF for too many years and it doesn't work - treating subordinates as idiots who cannot possibly know what is going on because they 'don't have the full picture' is a disease that has spread far and wide as we continue to promote people on their secondary duties instead of their primary ones.

As for PMA, the only people who volunteer for that job are those who know that promotion is guaranteed if they can keep the plates spinning for 2 years - that encourages poor management of individuals careers (yes I know they have a very high workload, especially since the move to High Wycombe) and further pisses those off who you have said, quite rightly, we need to encourage and keep.

The very senior officers, those who make sweeping strategic decisions without considering the detail, are those that have got us into this situation -but again, after 2 years or less, are not held accountable for those decisions and get promotions and honours all round - again.

The fact of the OCFs is that you cannot run them without serviceable aircraft and everyone except air rank officers seems to know that.

[minigundiplomat]

The fact of the OCFs is that you cannot run them without serviceable aircraft


Despite his yellow hat, Crab has put his finger on the nub of the problem for many fleets, not just his own.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

...although the main problem with the RAF Sea King OCU is lack of staff, even more acute than airframe issues.

One potential ray of sunshine amid this mess may be the reopening of the SAR pipeline for ab initios - with SAR-H delayed (if not scrapped) then the mil SAR flts will need to keep going for that little bit longer, and a few SAR slots would ease the pain for some of those stuck in the system after leaving Shawbury. Not that anyone wants to be a SARBoy W**ker these days, of course, but surely any flying is better than none?

[MaroonMan4]

Crab,

Although I do not embark on a blaming of senior officers (whether classed as 'A' or 'B') and can not comment on the career aspirations of those operating at PMA, I do agree with you.

I was merely highlighting that those in charge of the manning levers took it in good faith that the histoical underfunding of of Battlefield Helicopters (as independently recorded in the NAO report and discussed at length on this web site, the open press and many a crew room) was finally being rectified at last by the Prime Minister's announcement of a significant uplift in airframes that would also require a significant uplift in trained personnel (including aircrew).

Irrespective of available airframes or QHIs at the OCUs/OCFs, the SH training pipeline was turned fully on in anticipation of these new aircraft. We all know that the AAC did a pretty good job in bringing AH in, but they did not calculate both the instructor/full training requirement and the shear number of aircrew required (failure and voluntary outflow rate) - hence having aircraft sitting in storage waiting crews to fly them.

If those in charge of the training pipeline had not primed it in anticipation of the 22 wokkas (as well as the already planned upgrade conversions) then we would have been repeating the same mistake.

We all took it on faith in December 2009 that the 22 wokkas were both MoD, HM Treasury and higher echelons of HMG sanctioned.

The fact that the Treasury subsequently squeezed this procurement without any reflection on the obvious strategic requirement for lift (financially blind across all of the future NSC scenarios) is not the fault of those controlling the levers for DHFS and subsequent OCUs/OCFs.

[Yozzer]

I agree with most of what MM4 has said although the perception is that the AH64 storage issue was born of an over ambitious declaration by the AAC regarding how quickly CR Crews could be 'created'. This was during the p*ss*g contest between Crabair v Tiny Weenie as to who was going to operate (read control) AH. Either way, that is now history and the present situation is what it is.

I wonder if UK Govt Plc is not keeping a very close eye on the global standing of nations withdrawing now from Afghanistan with a view to prematurely pulling our own plug. Radical I know, but we are bankrupt and we are leaving capability gaps wide open regarding UK Defence at the detriment of fighting a war that we simply cannot afford. There appears to be no 'blinkers off' judgement in military policy these days.

Back to the thread, what will become of the civvies employed at DHFS for their numbers were raised in response to the perceived need for additional students. If the uniformed staff are returned to Front Line cabs leaving civvies only at DHFS it will be a real bad day. The flip side is the shear ammount of PVR within the SH community at this time from Benson and especially Odiham rear crew. Guys so hacked off that they are not prepared to wait for redundancy. If this trend continues, new blood is essential and so the circle is complete. I was not at the pre-christmas DHFS morale booster but would love to be a fly-on-the-wall for the silence by those that were is deafening.

[GlobalTravellerAT]

Yozzer, I was and it was awful

[[email protected]]

MM4 - you trusted what a politician (especially that one) said?????????? Doh!!!

[MaroonMan4]

Crab,

I can assure you that I have/had absolutely nothing to do with any of this and as this is a Rumour Network, only offer my thoughts from currently working the shop floor.

But I can understand why those that did make these decisions were lulled into such a belief by the politicians - even without the most damning NAO report highlighting major lift shortfalls, and also ignoring the harsh lessons learned in Afghan I can understand why those that heard Mr Brown's statement to the House promising to deliver the Rotary Wing Strategy was taken as endorsed policy on which the enabling desks were to act. Even with an impending SDSR I can further understand why Rotary Wing Strategy was taken in good trust (and therefore continued resourcing) as every single scenario that the NSC or DG Strat should or could have reviewed involved a significant amount of helicopters as an essential component.

Admittedly the Rotary Wing Strategy did remain mainly intact (Puma LEP, Merlins etc), but dropping to 15 wokkas obviously has resulted in a significant amount of potential rotary lift lost - but it was only when this lastminute.com announcement resulted in the confirmation that the training pipeline should now be scaled back to the re-aligned figure of 15 wokkas.

I dont agree with all of the above - and perhaps greater assurances and clarification should have been sought from the Treasury before putting the Rotary Wing Strategy into practice, but I do have empathy with those caught between a rock and hard place - damned if they anticpated the aircraft arrival and prime the training pipeline, and damned if they waited for the physical aircraft to arrive on our dispersal and wait for the training pipeline to catch up.

Despite all of this, Yozzer is right - I wasn't at Strawbs and that all important briefing, so I will wait and see what the crew room has to offer tomorrow. It cannot be that good as I agree, the silence is here is an interesting one....

Perhaps nothing to see, so no news and move along.....

[chopabeefer]

It seems that this situation is destined to continue ...and that a great number of RAF aircrew (in training) are going to have to endure a further period of of indecision.

l shall elaborate...

This week, there was a meeting between the Air Officers and Group Capt's (read Stn Cdrs) Re. this very issue. Those PPruner's who have been in the RAF for any length of time will find it no surprise that the 3 Star/2 Star were unable/unwilling to make any decisions with respect to what will happen to students in training - this meeting, which was supposed to determine the future prospects (fate) of those hundreds of Officers/NCO's in trg, concluded with no clear way forward, much to the frustration of many Gp Capts present.

Are you in this situation? A student in training? If you are, it's time to get vocal...call your Desk Officer (It's his job!!!!). Write to the AOC...you are fighting for your career!!!

Is it possible, does anyone believe, that the RAF Hierarchy actually have the intelligence and gumption to tell the truth and be honest. Personally I hope so, but I doubt it very much... too many 2 and 3 stars covering their asses for a chance at the next rank and 'who care what happens to the guys who go and fight for the country' - they should look at their reflections and weep at what they have become. It makes me sick.

The AOC's are looking for a way to get rid of people without giving them cause for legal redress - this is a legal minefield but hey are negotiating it as well as they can I assure you. Please do not let them do this without a personal explanation - call your AOC, write to them/email them - ask what is going on. Ask them personally - and see if they have the courage to answer - I personnaly bet the silence will be deafening...Our AOC's are allowing the RAF to be disected, because they don't care. It is that simple...they don't care....think differently? Good, show me some some proof.
As RAF Officers I believe we must consider ourselves abandoned. We are on our own. The Air Officers have got their promotion umbrellas and they don't care about us, and God forbid they need to make decisions. Don't believe me?...find one, and ask about the meeting on Wed...ask him what they actually decided...I rest my case. I am ashamed to be an officer in the RAF.

[iRaven]

Chopabeefer

AOC 1Gp would seem 'to care' shown in this recent outburst RAF chief Greg Bagwell: Spending cuts will mean our air force is little better than Belgium's | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1339971/RAF-chief-Greg-Bagwell-Spending-cuts-mean-air-force-little-better-Belgiums.html)

AOC 2Gp, only in post for 2 days, would probably punch you and tell you to "f0ck off!" (can't decide in which order!) if you suggested he 'didn't care'.

I can't speak for AOC 22Gp as I don't know him.

So which of the 3 AOC's left are you refering to? I know that at least 2 out of 3 'care' and are good leaders of men.

:confused:

iRaven

[Spanish Waltzer]

Chopa,

I admire you for your passion, even if it may be a little naive. However not all that long ago you were implying that the military lords & masters were doing good work to change the mil for the better...

I note a lot of posters have said that the MOD is too expensive and hard to change. Really? Seems to me it is changing in unheard of ways at the moment - it employs some incredibly intelligent people - is it really unable to change? No, it is not.

but now its...

Is it possible, does anyone believe, that the RAF Hierarchy actually have the intelligence and gumption to tell the truth and be honest. Personally I hope so, but I doubt it very much... too many 2 and 3 stars covering their asses

If, as you now say, senior leadership in the RAF is that bad at the moment then maybe looking for solutions outside the box/MOD is the right course of action?

SW

[Cragrat]

Does anybody have the number for TV Truckmaster? i think I might be needing that!:ugh:

[wazz'n'zoom]

I think a certain Air Rank Officer (Rhymes with Nixon) will step up to the plate and sort out things out when he takes over his new post (Not far from a certain VRP near Salisbury) in March.
He has very recently seen the trg pipeline first hand and is not content with the lack of flying that the students are currently being given and the rediculous amount of students in the system and holds suffered prior to each phase of trg and OCU.
Watch out, watch out, targets will fall when hit!!!!:ouch:

[Yozzer]

DHFS = AOC 22 Grp
OCF = AOC 1 Grp

With the best will in the world, HQ JHC are a sponsor devoid of any real single service impact. The theory was good, the practice inevitable. The most you will get is a bun fight behind closed doors that nobody will ever hear about. The people with the strings in their hands live in Downing Street not Andover.

[minigundiplomat]

The C/S that rhymes with Nixon won't let the insignificant fact that the problem lies in someone elses garden stop him from picking up the ball. And god help any AOC who cry's foul - if he hasn't changed, then he won't give a crap.

[xenolith]

I understand that 'he who must be obeyed' at a fast jet training station, somewhere in NW Wales, has instructed all of the FJ students to write to him explaining why they should be retained in the service.

I do hope that this is not true it would, IMHO, mark a new low.

[Pontius Navigator]

I understand that 'he who must be obeyed' at a fast jet training station, somewhere in NW Wales, has instructed all of the FJ students to write to him explaining why they should be retained in the service.

Actually sounds like a good scheme.

Suppose he is required to write up all the pilots and has only limited knowledge of some. It gives them the chance to tell him something he does not know.

I used the same ploy for many annual reports. No matter how much you know someone at work there is even more that you don't know. The latter may be deliberate however when it comes to retention or release your extra curicular activities might make a difference.

[Biggus]

I would advise anyone in the aircrew training system who is made redundant in the coming months to consult a decent solicitor rather than just gratefully accept what you are given.

I would be very surprised if, given the half arsed selection methods that may well be employed ("...Bloggs is a better letter writer than myself, so he was retained while I was made redundant, even though I'm a better pilot...."), a good solicitor couldn't get you considerably more in compensation than the standard package currently offered under the various AFRSs. What have you got to lose by at least investigating this option, a one off fee for a consultation?

Everyone knows (just like all the pregnant WRAFs who got 6 figure compensation figures for their dismissal several years ago) that you were destined to make CAS, no matter what your current OJAR says (and you probably haven't had one yet as you are still in training), so your loss of future earnings will in no way be compensated by the paultry compensation given by the MOD.

What have you got to lose by pressing the point?


Edited to say:

PN - If you are referring to the use of "boast sheets" for compling annual reports, they are fairly standard these days. However, like most things they have both good and bad points. On the one hand they can bring to the attention of your reporting officer achievements they were not aware of - mind you, given the limited number of characters available in a report commenting upon all the achievements is not always possible! On the other hand, it can mean that poor reporting officers make even less effort to get to know those within their chain of command, on the basis they know they will have a crib sheet to work to come report time!

Like most things with regard to reports, it all comes down to the calibre of the reporting officer.

[Pontius Navigator]

PN - If you are referring to the use of "boast sheets" for compling annual reports, they are fairly standard these days. However, like most things they have both good and bad points. On the one hand they can bring to the attention of your reporting officer achievements they were not aware of - mind you, given the limited number of characters available in a report commenting upon all the achievements is not always possible! On the other hand, it can mean that poor reporting officers make even less effort to get to know those within their chain of command, on the basis they know they will have a crib sheet to work to come report time!

Like most things with regard to reports, it all comes down to the calibre of the reporting officer.

Fair point. One FS was happy where he was and said just give me 3s boss. I made him write his own report and guess what - the bugger couldn't do less than 4s and 5s. Thoroughly deserved a warrant IMHO based on his personna and also a brilliant OOA report. Sadly I probably only gave him a first class write-up, if you see what I mean.

[RookiePilot]

As a current RAF member of the senior course at Shawbury, there have been no redundancies, re-branching or otherwise offered to any pilots, and no decisions have been made. Yes there are too many people in the system, no news however on how to solve this. Course ahead (already graduated) has long holds, who knows if that will be the same case for us?


Appreciate the gen there sir. How long are we talking here; 6 months, a year, 18 months? Because it seems likely that with all that time on the ground, aircrew will become very rusty!!!

[Yozzer]

with all that time on the ground, aircrew will become very rusty!!!

He hasnt even had time to oil his nuts yet let alone worry about rust! They will virtually end up doing the complete MEARW course again, and that is cost effective...NOT.
It is a shambles; those embedded in the system should be allowed to run their course (pardon the pun). The rumours of a line being drawn and the top 50% getting through whilst their lessor assesed peers get chopped is fraught as with the best will in the world, people have an isolated bad day through exam nerves whilst instructors are prone to hyping up their own students marks. Favourtism is human nature, and even the best instructors can succombe to it when such draconian decisions are at stake.

[Uncle Ginsters]

Although anyone with any sense knows that you need to keep the training flow going through the ages, i'm led to believe that there's some nebby law that won't let you force redundancy on folk at one end whilst you're still recruiting others to 'replace' them.

[RookiePilot]

Although anyone with any sense knows that you need to keep the training flow going through the ages, i'm led to believe that there's some nebby law that won't let you force redundancy on folk at one end whilst you're still recruiting others to 'replace' them.

Doesn't seem logical, does it? Hence my worry.

[Yozzer]

There is civil employment Law that states that you cannot make someone redundant and recruit for the same post. ie Every man lost 'should' be a PIC/PID removed from circulation. However there is no way that this will be adhered to by the military who will claim an exemption from civil law.

The same laws apply to people on sick leave being replaced in post and the military do tend to dick-dance around these cases, so there may be some hope. Of course cases such as the pregnant WRAF compensation saga couldnt possibly happen again could it?:E

The get-out clause for students being 'chopped' will be that standards have not been achieved, even when that line in the sand changed during a course. The boundaries of acceptable, if not legal behavour will be explored by Govt in the coming months.

[Biggus]

I refer you to post 76 on this thread....

[wazz'n'zoom]

For those that need the latest info on FJ, RW and ME training, read this 'unclassified' newsletter just released from D of FT, 22GP.

22 (Trg) Gp
Directorate of Flying Training
Newsletter No 1 - Jan 11

FLYING TRAINING PIPELINE

The impact of the Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR) on FT has been significant. This newsletter is intended to communicate the current pressures and widespread implications of re-organising the FT pipeline in line with reduced requirements.

CURRENT SITUATION

The decision to cancel the Nimrod MRA4, and the future reduction in Tornado GR4 Force, mean that there is no longer a requirement to train Weapon Systems Officers (WSO) and Weapon Systems Operators (WSOp) Sensor. Similarly there is a need to reduce the number of student pilots required in the pilot trg pipeline due to the retirement of the Harrier and the reduction in the Tornado GR4 Force. This will necessitate a rebalancing of the FT system to meet this new requirement.

FJ WSO TRAINING AND DOMINIE OUT-OF-SERVICE DATE (OSD)

The Minister for Armed Forces has agreed to the following:

1. Basic WSO trg ceases on 76(R) Sqn and the Sqn will disband.

2. Advanced WSO trg on 55(R) Sqn will cease on the 17 Jan 11. The final cse No 512 will complete FJ WSO trg.

3. The Dominie trg aircraft OSD will be 31 Jan 11.

FUTURE PILOT TRAINING

The revised fleet structures post SDSR, has resulted in a surplus of circa 200 student pilots. To re-align the trg pipelines to our future
requirement, 22 (Trg) Gp has recommended various measures to rebalance the training surplus. However, any decision must be agreed by Ministers before the methodology can be published.


IMMEDIATE MEASURES

FJ Pilots. From 4 Jan 11, all new FJ courses will be halved in size, with students not in trg placed in a hold, pending the decision on how to rebalance the pipeline.

RW Pilot. Army pilot courses will continue with no change. There will be a small reduction in RN cse sizes however, all new RAF RW courses will be halved in size with students not in trg placed in a hold, pending the decision on how to rebalance the pipeline.

ME Pilots. All new ME courses that were due to start in flying in Jan 11 have been delayed until 1 Apr 11. Students not currently in trg will be placed in a hold, pending the decision on how to rebalance the pipeline.

WSO and WSOp. The WSO students who were holding, awaiting allocation of a WSO course, have returned to OASC to be re-assessed and advised on their future career opportunities. Those WSO students that have not started the FJ Dominie phase of trg and those previously streamed ME WSO, will also return to OASC for reassessment. The remaining FJ WSOs in the trg pipeline will continue. The WSOp Sensor students have already been re-streamed WSOp Crewman (RW) and are awaiting courses.

IOT. In to trg (ITT) targets have been reduced to zero for IOT intakes post SDSR within the current FY. ITT for FY11/12 has yet to be allocated. All students who are not in training will be held, until the subsequent action is agreed.

Note. All holding students will be held without prejudice to their future.

FUTURE MEASURES

The RAF aircrew trg pipeline is in a state of flux and many decisions have yet to be made. In taking such decisions we will be attempting to balance fair outcomes for people, with the needs of the Service. It will not be easy, but I and your command chain will keep you informed as soon as firm decisions are made.

Air Cdre A Sudlow - Director of Flying Training

Sounds like the place to start your FT career is with the Army!

[Albanian Seahorse]

Thank you, wazz'n'zoom, for talking the time to share that.

[Timelord]

What is a "New Fast Jet Course" : One that is about to start at Linton, about to start on 208 or about to start on 19, or all of the above?

[KeyPilot]

As Timelord implies, that newsletter is pretty sloppily worded and is ambiguous in respect of several categories of people... which is nice given the enormous worry affaected people will be feeling.

[Yozzer]

sloppily worded and is ambiguous

....or "Political!"

I can recall many RAF Rotary Pilot graduates being 'given' to the Army in the eighties to address a shortfall of particulary Gazelle drivers. You could be forgiven for believing that as JHC is the primary customer for DHFS RAF and Army students, and also the lions share of RN students, that the massacre of potential rotary pilots would be equi-shared between the Services. Idealistic I know, but yet another example of how ineffective the Joint of JHC really is.

PS: Wazz'n'zoom
Thanks for the post. That sort of information is exactly what this forum and indeed the redundancy matters are in need of.

[Red Line Entry]

Keypilot,

I think you're being a bit unfair. The Planning Round is still ongoing, options are still being run, final personnel numbers have not yet been determined. Against that backdrop, it's somewhat harsh to be expecting definitive information. Of course it's damn well going to be ambiguous!

I think it's a valiant effort by the Air Cdre to keep people in the loop as much as possible when the whole edifice is still wobbling on quicksand.

[Pontius Navigator]

If you read the OASC thread there is a clue there for all those destined to be re-boarded at OASC.

[Albanian Seahorse]

Please excuse my naivety, but can someone explain the meaning of

"All holding students will be held without prejudice to their future"

[LFFC]

"without prejudice (http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/W/WithoutPrejudice.aspx)"

[MAD Boom]

So with all the FT courses halving in size, what's going to happen to all the surplus QFIs/QHIs no longer required for these smaller courses? No spaces on the front-line any more thanks to reductions in squadrons, ac etc.

The redundancies are going to be interesting!

[Northernskyuk]

Hi everyone,
I'm not sure if this is of interest to anybody, but I am/was a potential Fleet Air Arm pilot candidate and I received a letter today that said:

"You will probably be aware that the RN requirement for fixed and rotary wing pilots has significantly reduced following the SDSR. Fleet Air Arm career opportunities for fixed wing and rotary wing pilots do still exist but there is currently no requirement for pilots to start officer training until 2012.

As you have indicated that you also wish to be considered for observer and ATC your application will continue to be processed. If this is no longer the case, please contact us immediately."

So no new pilots will be passing out of BRNC until 2013 at the earliest.

I'm not sure what I'll do. I only dropped two points in the RT, and I'm confident of getting an excellent mark in the FATs in early February. I want to fly, even if it means holding till 2012, but it doesn't sound like that'll be an option.

-Marc

[vikingdriver]

God knows on the idea of holding until 2012/2013 or later.

After a visit by AMPBT to Linton there seemed to be no consideration of this, inspite it being what most 'baby aircrew' would see as a preferred option to a P45. It was an inspired question, asked by an individual that has the welfare of many as a major concern, that was going to be "reworded" by AMPBT to ask some SME's at HQ Air about.

However, this would appear at odds to when 76(R) got the news before xmas, they were informed that the AOC didn't want people clogging up the system by being in a hold...

[exairman]

With allowances about to be cut or reduced, people to be made redundant and pressure on all budgets, do you think the payment of the salaries for a lot of people on hold "until 2012/13 or later" really be justified??

[Northernskyuk]

I was told today that if I passed the FAT for Pilot, I would be allowed to hold until there was a need for a new intake, but I wouldn't be sent to the AIB until that time. I expect a lot of potential pilots will take this option, so they will be able to be very picky. I'll make the decision after I sit the FAT.

[vikingdriver]

Well, apparently if you don't choose redundancy then there is still a 12 month notice/holding period.

Is it cheaper to retain or recruit for this period?
What is "fair" with regards to employment law?

These are the questions that no one is yet answering, and I think that until they do there will continue to be 'friction' in the flying training system, let alone its impact for MFTS...

[DarkSide24]

Northernskyuk,

The RN does not plan to take any pilots into BRNC until May 2012, bar a small number who already have long standing offers going in in Sept 2011. Therefore, excluding this number in Sept 2011, FAA Pilot intakes will be frozen between Sept 2010 and May 2012.

If you check out the post above from Director Flying Training, it says that RN courses will receive some cuts (though they don't seem as severe as the RAF's?).

Hope that helps,

DS24.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Retain or recruit seems, as alluded above, to be the big question. Is it cheaper to pay someone £30k to sit on their backside for a year or 2 post linton, than recruit someone and pay the cost for that, plus IOT plus EFT? I'd imagine you wouldn't have to go far down the pipeline for the cost of getting someone to the same point again to even out the cost of paying someone even for as much as 2 years?

[wazz'n'zoom]

On Monday, the Senior MEARW cse at Shawbs was reduced from 10 pilots to 6 (5 RAF and 1 Navy)with only 7 sorties left to wings. The rest of their course and all the other DHFS RAF pilots will enter a central 'Holding Flt' until the execs are told to restart SE & MEARW with, the best performing students 'creamed' onto the first course..... alledgedly. Harsh or realistic?

No change to the MEARW WSO's.

There are only 6 OCU slots in 2011 (all Chinny). How many in 2012???

Right now, the RAF have 200 trainee pilots streamed Rotary. This is going to take some time to even out. :ugh:

[Spanish Waltzer]

There are only 6 OCU slots in 2011

Is that because thats all that the front line Sqns require the OCUs to provide for this year or is that because the other OCUs are broken/undergoing aircraft upgrades etc so cant take any more students?

Depending on the answer surely there's a big difference as to the implications further downstream if pilot training is stopped/delayed.

SW

[wazz'n'zoom]

SW

Yes, Yes and Yes.

[Spot 4]

I am told that the 'six' includes an attrition fiqure of 'two'!:eek:

Telegraph today reports all additional Chinook (x12) cancelled. :{
RAF likely to fight to keep Merlin :ugh:and OCFs busy with the re-role merry-go-round retreads. Puma II casework is probably stronger which :mad:

The DHFS-FBH contract must be in danger of a complete rewrite and/or staff from mil or civil sector in danger of losing jobs. It may be cheaper to change the contract then to employ folk without a job to do.:=

Bespoke DHFS WSOp courses should produce their output quicker then the ridiculous times thus far, and OCFs will need to continue to serve trainee rearcrew. Unless on-the-job rearcrew training is being considered which must have strong merits.:ok:

Who would have seen this coming having read the newspaper headlines in recent years?:(

[DarkSide24]

On Monday, the Senior MEARW cse at Shawbs was reduced from 10 pilots to 6 (5 RAF and 1 Navy)with only 7 sorties left to wings. The rest of their course and all the other DHFS RAF pilots will enter a central 'Holding Flt' until the execs are told to restart SE & MEARW with, the best performing students 'creamed' onto the first course..... alledgedly

So four pilots only a few trips from wings will have to repeat the entire course again if they are 'creamed' off and back onto it? Diabolical waste of man hours and cash, but the hot question remains: what on earth is meant to be done? And, perhaps more relevant to the here and now, what is being suggested to be done to attempt to iron out these problems at the moment?

[Easy Street]

So four pilots only a few trips from wings will have to repeat the entire course again if they are 'creamed' off and back onto it? Diabolical waste of man hours and cash

From the front-line point of view, surplus pilots coming out of the training system cause an even bigger waste of time and money, as combat-ready pilots get displaced onto ground tours to make room for the new boys. Front-line training costs are enormous compared to the FTSs, and it is very wasteful having to work new guys up again and again.

Before you suggest it, adding on surplus graduates as "extra" crew at the front line just dilutes the (fixed) pool of flying hours for everyone else at a time when hours are at a premium. The action taken seems harsh from some points of view but makes complete sense from mine.

[teeteringhead]

Easy Street has it right ... sad but true. It sometimes seems that the left hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing ......:(

[DarkSide24]

I also agree with EasyStreet...I think that both our points are suggesting the inevitability of wasted time, stunted careers and messing about at all stages of the pipeline.

On a slightly different note, why are the RAF's rotary OCUs/OCFs full? If no helicopters have been immediately cut under SDSR (contrast the loss of Harrier and however many GR4 squadrons are to go), why is the rotary pipeline so backlogged?

[chinook240]

DS24,

Read MaroonMan's post#62 in this thread!

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Dark Side,

In a nutshell:

Puma: In the middle of an upgrade => not many hours available for existing Puma chaps/chapesses => no slots for FNGs.
Merlin: Heavily committed to Afghan and destined for transfer to RN => no ability to train lots of new people at the moment, and no point planning to do so in the future
Chinook: New buy in jeopardy, so all the extra people put through Shawbury to fill these slots no longer needed. Some people are needed at Odiham but not nearly as many as expected a year ago.
Sea King: Only ex-SH guys have been getting SAR slots in the last year or so, fleet going in a couple of years => no room at the inn for FNGs.

Not a happy picture, is it?

[Thinly Chopped]

Apparently a decision on the future of us baby pilots has been made today - anyone else heard anything?

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I'd rather like to think they'd tell you guys fairly rapidly. Do pop back and keep the rest of us informed if there's any big announcement; I've only heard total conjecture, mostly in line with the last 22 Gp DIN that came out talking about courses halved in size etc.

[Runaway Gun]

Don't forget to read the papers each morning before you go to work. You might find out quicker.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

It must be said that, the last time something similar happened, (restreaming from linton) most of those concerned found out on here first!

[camelspyyder]

Given that the Pilot's and WSO's have already taken a major hit, has anybody heard if the cancellation rumours around the Chinook buy are going to impact on the large number of WSOp trainees currently in the pipeline?

Currently there are a great many of them holding, having been recruited as part of a surge looking towards the 22 new cabs we were promised...:hmm:

CS

[vikingdriver]

Rumours of an announcement thursday wrt baby pilots?
Anyone else heard anything?

[Pontius Navigator]

RinC says 15th.

[Albanian Seahorse]

RinC says 15th.

Please could you tell me: What/who is RinC... and is the 15th a fact?

[Pontius Navigator]

Rumour in Confidence and as much as a fact as anything else on pprune.

[cazatou]

PN

Surely you remember that the 1975 Redundancy Scheme was:-

"Positively the last Redundancy Scheme the RAF will ever have !"

[Kohima]

Vikingdriver - makes sense:

AOC 22Gp's giving a briefing to all trainee pilots at Valley, Shawbs and Linton this week. (All on Thursday, apparently). Cranwell is Friday.

Linton and Cranwell are gen. Don't know about the other two yet.

I'll post up if there's anything useful.

[vikingdriver]

So that could provide for an interesting conversation topic at the dining in night on the island of dreams then!

[wazz'n'zoom]

Strawbs's MEARW Pilot Trg to re-commence in Mid-March 2011. Not quite so full on as last year but at least it's a start to clearing the backlog. Let's 'hope' that the OCUs will 're-open' to take the output and the aforementioned Chinny's appear as planned.

[Northernskyuk]

I took my FATs yesterday at Cranwell, passed for all three branches. I was told during my debrief that the RN was only taking 3 pilots this year and 3 next year, but that they've already been selected. There were two serving AEO's who said they were applying for a transfer (I think they called it an 'MTP course'?) and they seemed to think that they were just going to drop into grading after they'd finished their current AEO courses.

Disappointingly, I was told that my scores would have put me at the top of the list if I had taken them a year earlier, but that there's just no chance right now. So... Observer or ATC?

[I'm Off!]

Wait. If it's what you really want, then wait, things will change at some point...

[Justanopinion]

Northernsky

Definitely wait if being a pilot is what you want to do.

Don't make the mistake of thinking I'll go Observer/ATC and then transfer. While there is/was a very small chance of that happening I think those days are well and truly gone. If you would be happy being an Obs/ATC then go for it.

As for the AEO guys, and I am about 10 years out of date, it used to be that about 2 or 3 a year would be selected by competition from AEO training to be Maintenance Test Pilots. They would complete the normal pilot training route (fixed or rotary) , complete a tour and then be the maintenance test pilot for the unit. This does not mean that they are test pilots, rather the same as check test pilots the RAF uses, at least did on the Harrier and Im sure do on other types, for aircraft that have come out of maintenance. Check Test Pilots were just the more experienced guys on the Sqn who took a short course . In these days of austerity it seems a bit crazy for the RN to recruit specific MTPs having just trained them as AEOs.............................

Anyway, if you can wait, push to be in the next intake of pilots.

[DarkSide24]

Northernskyuk,

I have had it confirmed that my reply (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/436692-training-pipeline-clogged-5.html#post6189116) is still correct.

I agree with the rest of the advice. Wait for pilot slots which will apparently be becoming available again as of May 2012. The upper age limit is 26(?). In this climate, I agree that there would be no real prospect of a transfer from the generalist warfare branch to the pilot specialisation.

Have the RN informed you of how your application would/could be processed once the intake reopens (given your success at FATs)?

DS24.

[Kohima]

Reference my last, they've cancelled both the Linton and Cranwell AOC visits. Some sort of faff, I believe - again, not sure about the other two.

[TyroPicard]

Probably because it was leaked on WikiPPRuNe......

[Northernskyuk]

Thanks to everyone who has offered their advice. The issue is that I'm 23 in June this year, and the debriefing officer told me that even though I got exceptional marks at the FATs, by the time they're looking for the next pilot intake I'll be 24 or 25, and in his experience they'd probably select a 21-22 year old with a lower FAT score rather than someone like me who'd be approaching the age limit upon entering BRNC. I haven't spoken to my ACLO yet about the way forward so maybe she'll offer a different opinion.

DS24, many thanks for getting that reconfirmed. I was told that as the FATs are changing slightly in the next few months I would have to come back and retake them, but that doesn't really bother me. I wouldn't be sent to the AIB until the intake was reopened, and in all truth I think I'll find that much more difficult than the FATs. I'm happy to wait, but it'd be even more heartbreaking to wait a year or more and then fail the AIB. At least if I go for Observer or ATC I'll find out one way or the other in the next couple of months, and even if an offer for Observer was made, is there any reason I couldn't go back to them and say I'd rather wait?

I don't want to dilute this thread any more than necessary, but I do really appreciate all your advice.
Many thanks,

[cully 58]

Let us mere mortals know your fat scores then so we can look in awe at them

[Northernskyuk]

Cully 58 - I know that's sarcasm, but I'm not being arrogant, I'm not looking to brag to anyone here, and I'm not going to rise to the bait. I appreciate the experience and the wisdom of the forum members here, and I'm just looking for a little advice. I was obviously disappointed to be told "last year you could have achieved your life ambition, but you can't anymore." The information in this thread is going to be invaluable in helping me make a decision, but I apologise if you or anyone else thought I was just looking to brag.

[cully 58]

Nothing Of The Sort Knew Someone Who Got In With 170 For Pilot And 169 Observer Just Wondered Where That Sat In The Scale Of Things :o

[Tourist]

NorthernSky

Your scores were not exceptional.
They might have been good, but they were not exceptional.

How do I know this?

Because they would have made an exception in your case to let you in if they were, or would let you in when you are a bit older over a less exceptional candidate.

That is what the word exceptional means.

Why are you on here?
If you want to be a pilot enough you would just wait it out rather than whining on here.
If you are willing to accept observer, then you really are not that fussed about piloting.

Man up and do what you want, dont let others talk you into something else.

[Northernskyuk]

Look, I don't want this topic to be taken any further off topic, so I promise this will be my last word on the subject. Whoever wants to lay into me afterwards can continue to do so. I'm not looking to be talked into or out of anything, I'm just asking for the opinions of members like yourself who have more experience than I do. I don't see what's wrong with wanting to get as much information as possible before making my own decision. Apologies if it seems like I'm whining.
Take care,

[On_Loan]

Northernsky - good luck to you, and dont get put off by the posts on here. You are not the first to ask a sensible question and get abused by the bored has-beens who tend to enjoy that sort of thing on the forums.

[DarkSide24]

On_Loan, I concur.

NSUK, for your peace of mind and the most reliable advice (by reliable I mean not via an anonymous forum), I would pursue the issue with your AFCO/ACLO and the AIB, asking as many questions as possible.

Don't let the corrosive nonsense exhibited on here put you off, especially when you have recognised any topic-drifting and been polite in the face of counter-productivity.


[My own apologies for continuing an off-topic element, but I see no reason to kick someone while they are down...especially given that there are many in the military feeling 'down' at the moment, whereas they have in-service (and thus in the know(?)) colleagues to help alleviate, even to a tiny extent, the not-knowing and doubts].

[Pontius Navigator]

Cully, taking your post at face value, thos escores are exceptional. The minmums are well below that even with the 10% increase in the RAF bottom level.

[cazatou]

NSUK

I agree with On Loan and DarkSide24.

Do NOT be put off by the negative comments from anonymous contributors who have not had to produce any proof of their qualifications prior to pontificating.

You appear to have faced up to the dilemma that, through no fault of your own, has suddenly confronted you and I wish you the best of luck in the future.

[camelspyyder]

I could have sworn there was a sticky thread at the top for all these teenage wannabees...

[wazz'n'zoom]

Points do mean prizes and in this context.....a pilot job in the military!

Without giving away too much 'Restricted Staff' info, high overall flying point scores allied to good OQs will be the difference between a P45 and a helmet locker.
There's some clinical decisions about to be made within the FT system.:eek:

[WannabeCrewman]

Had a briefing given at Haltons holding flight by the CASWO yesterday, during which myself and the 11 other potential WSOps holding there asked about cuts in our trade. He mentioned that an announcement would be made on Feb 16th ref. cuts and in what areas, with more specific numbers being released on March 1st. For myself and the lads n ladies waiting for our Apr 4th NCAITC course, this is now a hot potato- logic would suggest that rather than put 32 people through NCAITC and then pay them £27k for the 12 years they signed for- when they aren't even in that trade-, they would chop us before we got there and offer us a rebranch. So us lot fresh out of the box are certainly watching with waited breath.

That said, he did open the WSOp answer with "Well one would have thought youll all be going down the EW specialization...". Many a puzzled look was shared... we wonder if anyone truly knows what the sketch is.

As it stands, we have been told to expect sizeable holds; looking at about 6-8 months after NCAITC, then 8-12 months after 55 Sqn. This will be followed by another year before DHFS for our Rotary Crewmen course. We are then going to Chinook- almost guaranteed according to our latest trade brief.

[camelspyyder]

Ah but who knows how many chinooks will there actually be? and how many ab-initio crewman will be required for that uncertain number of cabs? and are there really 60 crewman trainees in the queue ahead of you - not to mention as many sensor and FW NCA crossing over?

I believe there are vacancies for ATC(NCO) and ASOp at the moment-you should check them out even as you hold out for NCA...(which rightly should be your first choice)

CS

[WannabeCrewman]

CS - exactly, so much is up in the air (ironic pun completely unintentional) at the moment that we really are left with nothing but slightly educated speculation. I know that I have been thinking about contingencies in the eventuality that we are called into the office 'for a little chat'. What made me laugh at the brief was the guys and girls who had signed up for 6 years being told 'the next 5 years will be quite rocky'. Didn't instill much confidence.

There are a few ASOps going through at the moment, we have a few here waiting for the next course. The holding flights at Shawbury and Cranditz are apparently already filled to capacity, plus the percentage of current service guys from other trades going for NCA, plus the FW guys being shifted, PLUS the potential flood of Merlin rearcrew if/when it goes over to the FAA; we really dont have a scoobie what's going on down our end of the pipeline.

[minigundiplomat]

CS

not to mention as many sensor and FW NCA crossing over?


Very few crossovers from sensor or FW from what Ive heard. Air Manning do not own the course loading for DHFS, 22 Gp do. Its not quite the simple fix it appears on paper.

And just because someone is NCA doesn't mean they are ideal for Chinooks - as many have found out in the past - just as it doesnt mean NCA from the rotary world are ideal for finding submarines.

WC

No idea - but if the pipeline is full and youve nowhere to go it may come down to last in first out. I hope not, but maybe time to start thinking about back up plans.

[noobie]

last in first out?

That sounds fair and logical...

...won't expect that to happen then.

[Pontius Navigator]

Depends is you fill the toothpaste tube from the top or the bottom.

[WannabeCrewman]

Yeah, last in first out does seem fair, and logical.

What we're left wondering now is if they do decide to get rid from our end of the pipeline, what sort of trades we are going to be offered; my main priority is a good career with opportunities and all that good stuff... that said, I know some people won't be the least bit happy about losing out on what is an excellent salary these days. I know some people reckon we'd be offered commissions, although I can't see that happening personally.

[Biggus]

WC

Sorry, but to be brutally honest, what makes you think you are going to be offered anything else...?

In case you hadn't noticed, there is no trade in the RAF that is currently drastically undermanned, everywhere is shrinking!

As for commissions, once again, in what trade. There is talk of WSOs rebranching due to lack of flying jobs, let alone the 100 odd baby pilots being talked about on another thread, so they would take any available officer posts. But once again there is no great shortage of officers in ground trades, so if this does happen it will literally be a handfull.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee I'm afraid.... :(

[minigundiplomat]

On the plus side,

if you have got this far, you are obviously bright. There is a whole world out there, much of it out of recession.

And.... you can tell them to ram it when they realise theyve porked it in 12 months and call you up!

[Lingo Dan]

Wise words MGD!

That is a lesson that could be learned by commercial aviation management also: early-retire/lay people off one week; hire them back the next, as consultants, at a multiple of their former deal when the "big picture" changes.

What are the bets that the UK forces will be short of aircrew within a year?

[casino335]

"shortage of aircrew in a year"...probably right (if going by history) but with the GR4 force approaching the slaughter house, I dunno. Think the 22 (now 12) extra chinooks looks like actually none. Also, if Merlin goes to RN, then once again surplus aircrew scrambling for what's left. Quite surprised how 100 sqn are managing to avoid all the bizarre cuts happening around them.

[Sgt.Slabber]

Quite surprised how 100 sqn are managing to avoid all the bizarre cuts happening around them.


They've turned the 'phones off and unplugged the mail server - job jobbed!

[WannabeCrewman]

Personally the only other trade I am particularly interested in is Medic; would love to do that if NCA goes down the ****ter. Not sure how that's sizing up at the moment in terms of reduction etc?

We were thinking today that they might get rid of "excess" NCA through natural wastage, voluntary redundancies and the like, to avoid a skills gap, but having seen 100 baby pilots get axed; they were commissioned officers, and no disrespect meant at all - Im one - but at this juncture, some of us are "just" ACs, therefore easier, cheaper and quicker to chin off than someone already holding after NCAITC and beyond. I guess few of the "wiser generation" coming towards the end of their careers would take an early redundancy when they can wait a bit and get an excellent pension package from a full 22 years.

Rumour around at the moment is that they're looking at getting rid of 300 WSOps one way or another. Don't know where that came from though...

[camelspyyder]

Sadly that is not a rumour.

We had that straight from Manning last month. Conjecture points to only 1 person in my section looking safe at the moment, but the detailed targets wont be announced for another 2 weeks.

CS

[The Old Fat One]

Starting to do a little research into the current state of play regarding rearcrew training (no agenda...it's actually for general pprune consumption)

I stumbled over post #84 on this thread, by way of a google search and wondered if there is any kind soul who could update this information.

Specifically...

Do we do any generic WSOP sensor training these days?

What rear crew training takes place at Cranwell? (looked on the website...couldn't find FA)

Is there any aircraft for generic rear crew training of is it all role specific?

At the moment I read it thus...

WSOP (crewman & linguist) Halton & Cranwell for recruit/leadership training..then to OCU

WSOP (sensor) One assumes Sentry only? Same route as crewman/linguist, no longer any generic training at Cranwell (ie no more NAAS or AEELS)???

WSO (what used to be a nav) Cranwell then OCU???

Am I ballpark, or way off?

Many thanks in advance for your help

PS

I'm not a slacker...I did look for info on the RAF website...where I found this

Weapon Systems Operator - Aircrew jobs - RAF Careers (http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers/jobs/weaponssystemoperator.cfm?tab=idothisjob&casestudy=B#pageContent)

Produced in 2002 if I'm not mistaken...they sure do like to keep on top of things in the old recruiting empire don't they :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Willard Whyte]

WSO (what used to be a nav) Cranwell then OCU???

Whilst bracing myself for a thorough correction I think Nav training has ceased. I guess there are deemed to be enough left in the raf to cover the Tornado, E-3D, and RJ until such a time as the fleets are scrapped (Tonka), upgraded to a navless flight deck, or have a.n. other trade inserted into the nav* seat. I would imagine that the youngest navs around are in their mid to late 20s, so it's certainly possible that a few may still be around towards the end of RJ's life.

My automatic spell corrector suggested 'nag' instead of nav. Appropriate for one or two I knew.

[camelspyyder]

TOFO,

In response to your query:

Generic WSOp training is back on at the moment, however I believe recruiting isn't.

The students going through Generic now are those who have been holding since 2010/11. They have previously done 10 weeks at Halton, and 10 weeks of NCAITC at Cranwell. Following Generic they are streamed Rotary (and join the queue for a Shawbury course) or FW (and train as loadmasters at Cranwell).

Generic students have no airborne training at all:eek:
FW students fly on the King Air.

Note: no mention of ISTAR yet - although I think in the next 2 years we will start streaming WSOp that way again - the development of the new course is in progress.

Finally WSO or NAV. Training stopped in 2011 and the last 5 courses were redunded or offered other Branches. The Nav School was disbanded and if it were to start up again, someone would have to ask me very nicely for the disks on which I archived the entire content of the Maritime and FJ NAV courses:)


CS

[BEagle]

Apart from all the usual jokes about navigators ('Will that be fries with that, Sir?', 'I'd sooner have the fuel', 'TACAN doesn't talk' etc. etc.), what will happen to the expert levels of navigation theoretical knowledge which the RAF used to have amongst its specialist navigators? Or has it already atrophied?? Another incapability from the capability 'holiday'?

Not long ago, I tried to ask a technical question about the azimuth reference used by A/A TACAN in INV BCN mode for the north reference burst element of the bearing signal. No-one knew anyone who might know - whereas others either gave a guppy fish at feeding time response or just went through the same Googling process which I'd already tried.

(The reason I asked, incidentally, is that if a tanker's north reference switch is selected to True, will the transmitted INV BCN signal then be referenced to True - or will it remain in 'local' Mag. It makes a significant difference in the Canadian Arctic!")

Maybe I'll have to ask at the local McDonald's?

[VinRouge]

The answer would probably include INS, GPS, RNAV, RNP 0.3 and p codes Beags!

A bit of trial and error on the day and you would figure it out within 5 minutes anyway Beags.

[ShotOne]

TACAN was in use donkeys years before GPS,RNAV etc came along so why would the answer depend on them, vinrouge?

Assuming its not a rhetorical question and you really don't know, Beagle, and not having had the pleasure of flying the lovely VC10, the answer is "not much". TACANs can be fitted on a ship, a building or even a truck none of which have such a thing as a North ref switch, so why would it matter? And in inverse bearing mode (if anyone's attention span has lasted this long) the reference pulse is aligned with a given part of the aircraft structure rather than a compass point. In any case, if a fighter cant find a great big tanker without a TACAN today is it really worth wasting fuel on?

If anything your question highlights the fact that maybe this particular capability holiday doesn't threaten the realm too much!

[BEagle]

No, I'm referring to INV BCN mode, not A/A INV, where the north reference burst is, according to publications, aligned with Magnetic North. Actually, it is transmitted when the rotating antenna pattern is passing East - and the aircraft heading is applied accordingly to provide the correct reference for the transmitted signal. So when the aircraft heading is aligned to True North, it is essential to understand whether that will also be applied to the north reference burst.

VinRouge, 'Trial and error' is hardly a sound testing methodology!

[Bob Viking]

BEagle.
I don't doubt that there was a time when old school navigator techniques were very useful. Maybe that time will come again in the future when anti satellite weapons become more commonplace. However, could you please explain how they could still be considered useful in today's aircraft? I am being genuine here and not having a dig so don't think this is a young upstarts vs the older and wiser crowd situation. Please bear in mind I am a FJ guy through and through but being a professional I have more than a laypersons understanding of other fleets.
Even the creaking old dinosaur that is CFS realizes that Hawk T1s, whilst useful in the past and can still provide a useful FJ lead in, have had their day. More modern aircraft such as the T2 can more adequately prepare our contemporary baby pilots for the frontline types for which they are destined.
I'm sure there are parallels on other fleets such that older techniques are no longer considered necessary by those in the know. I'm content to be proven wrong though.
As an aside are civilians taught such delights?
BV

[BEagle]

As an aside are civilians taught such delights?

Indeed they are, BV. The ATPL navigation syllabus requires far greater knowledge of spherical trigonometry than anything taught by the RAF, for example.

Progressive dumbing-down of basic theoretical knowledge, which has been going on for many years now at FTS level, isn't the whole problem. What is worrying is what will happen when the last truly knowledgeable person finally retires a week before someone urgently needs an answer.

The creeping malaise of "Doesn't affect my little world, therefore doesn't matter" needs to be addressed.

For example, I was taught (and examined) PofF to a higher level as a UAS student in the early 1970s than I was as a CFS student some 20 years later. I don't think that it did me any harm - and was a sound grounding for later years.

Hopefully the RAF still runs QWI courses, even though TWU aircraft no longer deliver real weapons? Which I still think is a real mistake.

[ShotOne]

Bob, yes we are taught it, and beagle would be pleased to hear the nav/Flt planning exam is (or was) based on VC10 fuel flow tables. That said, tens of thousands of aircraft manage to find their destinations every day, some of which are in godforsaken navaid free parts of the globe without navigators, specialist or otherwise.

What prompted the resurrection of this thread after two years?

[Bob Viking]

BEagle.
I can see your point but the intricacies of Lightning Pods, phased array RADARs and GPS guided bombs weren't taught 20+ years ago. Maybe it's not a case that guys now have less knowledge. Maybe it's just that there are more relevant things to fill up much needed brain space these days.
We've been through the whole simulated bombs versus training weapons before (ie hawk T1 vs Hawk T2 or 115). I've taught TW on both and went through both as a student. I know which I think prepares students better for modern frontline aircraft. Rest assured though with modern attack computers, whether you have a score from the RSO after your attack makes little difference if the correct discipline is taught.
I too remember same, drift, drift, track, fire. It worked well at the time but so does practicing loft deliveries of PW4.
BV

[The Old Fat One]

What prompted the resurrection of this thread after two years?

Read my post #156 and your question will be fully answered.

Many thanks to WW & CS for their instant and very helpful replies.

The ensuing debate re the relevance of "directional consultant" training to the modern world of aviation, military or civil, has got **** all to do with me.

But if I may venture an ill-informed and uneducated opinion.

Navigators are OK, but pound for pound I'd rather take some extra dairy cream sponge.

[BEagle]

BV, I concede that some of the stuff we had to study on the Gnat course wasn't all that relevant. Why, for example, did we study the theory of monsoons and learn about 'willy-willies' and 'horse latitudes' in an aeroplane which could barely reach the south coast of the UK from Angelsey?

But there's rather a lot of 'running before walking' around nowadays - Litening pods, PW and phased array radar would have been OCU topics, rather than TWU topics not all that long ago, for example. Is TWU really the right point for such esoteric systems?

As for the dumbing down of ME flying training, teaching VC10 co-pilots to fly close formation when they'd probably only have done so in little puddlejumpers beforehand was....interesting. Particularly at night.

It's not so much the 'directional consultant' as the knowledge of the deeper recesses of their black craft which seems to be in danger of being lost, if the RAF isn't careful.

Does 'Nav Flight Services' still exist?

[Bob Viking]

Since I've never had the pleasure of spending much time in the company of navigators I can't really speak for the more complex areas of their trade. I'm sure there'll be someone along soon with a little more knowledge in that respect.
As for the TW stuff I would say that guys will learn whatever you put in front if them and cope just fine. It wasn't that long ago that we had several fleets of aircraft that dropped dumb bombs almost exclusively. The training system we had worked just fine for that. In the not too distant future we'll be sending guys off to an OCU for a fifth gen wonder jet. Something had to change.
We could debate the rights and wrongs of the dissolution of the Nav branch until the cows come home but my point of view is that modern aircraft are designed around one seat and work just fine. Others were designed around two seats and also worked fine. Horses for courses I suppose. I'm afraid I don't see a place for many of the old techniques and knowledge when there are more pressing matters and equipment that works without it. I may of course be proven wrong in the future.
BV

[Party Animal]

TOFO,

I suspect MFTS at Culdrose will end up as the only school for future non-pilot aircrew of the future.

Bob,


I'm afraid I don't see a place for many of the old techniques and knowledge


Old school tip - in the northern hemisphere the sun will be due south at local midday time. Work backwards or forwards in time at 15 Deg/hr and you'll know if you're driving north or south on the A1 on Thursday afternoon! ;)

[airborne_artist]

I suspect MFTS at Culdrose will end up as the only school for future non-pilot aircrew of the future.

Looking forward, and until someone moves the goalposts ;)

[Onceapilot]

Here's a universal law; (If you stand with your back to the wind - you will get a cold bum):ok:.

OAP

[MaroonMan4]

Despite best intentions and lots of evidence to suggest the older fraternity of Beagle et al are absolutely spot on in that over the years we have "dumbed down" our flying training across the board, the bottom line has been two fold.

Firstly, as a weak analogy to the Battle of Britain/World War 2 era, the last 10 years of high tempo ops has (and will continue) to see a high turn over over trained aircrew, therefore the flying training system (in some areas) may not be able to deliver the standards it once did.

Secondly, if there is no money then you can do as much of a TNA and get as many training consultants in to advise as you want, but sadly the MOD will not be able to afford it. Especially if we were a bit cheeky and made sure that Hawk training and the Fast Jet pipeline possibly had the greater focus, and therefore the greater MFTS resources upfront, leaving the cupboard bare for the other pipelines.

The only way that maybe the concerns of those espousing that the training system isn't to the same standard, and whether or not offers value for money etc is to ask the MAA to try and compare occurrence incident and accident rates over the last 20-30 years. If there is a sharp spike in occurrences , that cannot be attributed to Op Hazards, Tech Faults or any other non HF(Aircrew) or training related factors, then maybe the bean counters in MOD may take notice.

Or we could just go back to the old way of doing business, tell each Service to train it's own pilots, and we use our Reserves and pilots that have had enough op or front line tours and that we may retain by giving them a tour of stability.

But no one in the MOD can put a price on the long term advantage of retention, standards and military ethos and practices versus potential short term cost savings (?) of contractorisation, PFIs and civilianisation across the board.

[Willard Whyte]

Navigators are OK, but pound for pound I'd rather take some extra dairy cream sponge.

Most navs, including this one, would see to it there was no cream sponge left for anyone else. Why else would they provide us with a picnic table?

[Party Animal]

Willard,

Some AEO's were acceptable but pound for pound, the money would have better been spent upgrading the dimmer switch to an automatic mode! ;)