Sea King Engine Failure from the Hover

[pasptoo]

Thought there would be a post on here or the Rotorheads, I have heard a rumour that Boulmer Sea King had an Engine Failure. I hear everyone ok, but shaken up a bit, no other details! Day/Night? Surge/Stall or just failed?

Pasptoo.

[green granite]

I don't know but there was an incident shown on last night's Highland Rescue of HMS Gannets Sea King getting caught in a vicious down draft and coming within 6' of hitting the ground, which caused them to abort the rescue, land and wait for the casualty to be brought to them. So perhaps it's that which started the whisper.

[vecvechookattack]

Its hardly news for a helicopter to suffer an engine failure. Regularly practiced and although it will get your pulse racing its won't make the headlines (Unless you bugger it up).

[Wirbelsturm]

Low, consistent hover over the sea can lead to salt water ingress which has, for me, in the past lead to engine surge. As VVHA suggests, not unusual just a little more 'exciting' than normal.

Also turbulent conditions whilst in the hover with strong cross winds relative to the aircraft can cause upset of the air intake on the downwind engine leading to surge. (I seem to remember that the maximum sideways taxi speed of the Seaking was set at 30kts due to this problem.)

Nothing too exciting.

But never let that get in the way of a good Jurno story. :8

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Apparently the eng failure in this case was caused by a faulty Overspeed Trip Governor which operated and shut the engine down. The aircraft was hovering at 50' asl at the time, during a night-time training sortie. Prompt and correct action by the crew meant that the aircraft was recovered without further difficulty. Total cost of eng failure: 1x new OTG, 4x new seat covers!

Good effort Spacer and crew:D

[pasptoo]

don't forget that copper tell-tale wire, that must be, ooh, 10p worth?

I was just curious, as everything else appears on here at some time.

Definitely no jurno trawl.

P

[Spacer]

As TorqueOfTheDevil said, we were in the 50' hover, and the engine ran down. An exciting moment. And vec, you're right. We do practise it all the time, just not from the hover. I'd gladly never see it again.

Pasptoo: Typically, the tell-tale did not tell its tale and refused to snap.

[pasptoo]

Spacer,

Good skills, low level IF is the Sport of Kings! No room for error in the below 50' regime and concentrates the mind.

Well done. :D

[Tourist]

Out of interest, what sort of torque were you pulling before the failure?
How fast did the engine run down?
Having practised many times, I have always been very interested to see what the reality would be like. I have always kind of assumed that you are on the water from 40 feet (pinger) unless high winds

[The Nr Fairy]

If I might interject, Spacer's experience seems an ideal "Air Clues" article. Pertinent not just to the military world, but I'm sure anyone else who flies twins in a 50' hover a lot would find it a useful read.

Sorry, I'll let you all get back to it.

[Old-Duffer]

At Tern Hill in the summer of '64 a Wessex turned up at Tern Hill (still new enough to cause a stir). The then CFI - a chap called B*&^%$£t - decided that the young fella flying said Wessex should take him for a trip and this was duly authorised.

On return, said CFI says to pilot something along the lines of: 'what happens if you lose both donks in the hover'? and without further ado, pulls back both speed select levers.

The pilot had a car to drive him back to Odiham.

O-D

[Spacer]

Thanks everyone. Anyone still 'in' can probably see the FSOR either on your local FS board, or on ASIMS direct.

Tourist: We were about 70%ish percent. The engine stopped producing torque in about 0.5 second, but took about 4 seconds to run to zero.

The Nr Fairy: I'm sure I'll be invited to write something in due course.

[vecvechookattack]

Interesting that you don't practice Single Engine failures from the hover. Why not?

[Spacer]

I don't know. I believe the RN do as part of the Adv SE package, but we practice 10/15ft hover (to land), then a transition that we abort and land, finally a transition that we continue with drooping Nr. We don't do any from the hover into the flyway (apart from the sim).

[vecvechookattack]

I suppose that makes sense....the Advanced SE profile was as a result of Pingers spending hours in the dip and so it was their bread and butter to practice SE flyaways from a 40' Hover.

[Saintsman]

Early 80s (1st April it was), we had one where one of the engines suddenly went to idle which resulted in the aircraft ditching. The engine was put into manual and run up again without problem and recovered. The only thing we could find that caused it was a suspected loose conection on a relay.

It was amazing how much kit was 'lost' overboard and written off though.

[airpolice]

Saintsman, at the risk of severe thread drift abuse....

A civvy mate who worked in the science department of a high schol near here came in to work on a Monday morning to find they had been burgled over the weekend. Plod was summoned and all departments were asked to compile a list of what had been taken.

With everyone seeing this as an opportunity to tidy up inventory discrepancies, and furnish personal toolkits as well.... you can imagine the returns.

By the end of the week plod reports that based on the evidence of method of entry, graffiti on the walls, local enquiries and the amount of missing stuff....they are looking for three, former pupil, teenagers who were seen climbing a fence to get in and must have made their getaway in a couple of lorries with forty foot articulated trailers.

[charliegolf]

The Atlantic conveyor apparently had 600 aircrew watches and the Masirah snow plough on board when it went down!

CG

[Thone1]

Very well done indeed on the fly-away.
It is practiced, but I wouldn´t mind not having to use it....:eek:

Thomas

[Spacer]

Thomas, and I'd be happy never to see it again!

[bast0n]

CG

The Atlantic conveyor apparently had 600 aircrew watches and the Masirah snow plough on board when it went down!

It really did have my Pentax Spotmatic and when I got home they had stopped making them..............:*

[oldgrubber]

Not for one moment suggesting that it was the case here, but I remember instructing the baby AEMs at Culdrose many years ago and found an interesting situation.
We went "up top" on a cab to do a little AFS instruction and found not only the incorrect SWG tell tale wire (emergency escape thickness), but the chap who had wirelocked it had failed to set the system first (power on etc). So there we were with taut wire of the incorrect SWG on a shut down engine (OTG "off" position).
We ended up doing a trawl and found others too, but usually they couldn't understand why they were finding broken wire on every AF.

Glad your safe
Cheers

[Wander00]

Saintsman/CG - not to mention the number of officers' swords that (allegedly) perished in the HQ at Brampton when it burned down in 1986

[glad rag]

Typically, the tell-tale did not tell its tale and refused to snap.

In that case was it thicker restraint wire fitted instead of tell tale wire with a lead seal (the other time a lead seal was installed by regulation by the RAF was all that "special" gubbins-not withstanding the lead seals fitted by the manufacturer to the BLC system on F-4's)

Nice catch.all the same :D

[Thomas coupling]

Spacer - firstly, very well done. I know it's practiced time and time again, but when it happens for real ...etc etc.
Secondly. You say the engine "ran down". Didn't you have a run away up, though?
Thirdly - did you have something similar up north a wee while earlier in your tour?

[Spacer]

Thomas: Sorry, I should have been clearer. It ran down to zero. And you're right. I was on 369 @ Leu. Lucky me :)

[Cornish Jack]

Interesting!!
In the early '70s the Sea King was at Boscombe on trials flying. One of our TPs (Canadian Maj Jay D****) was doing a high hover (untethered) and had a run down on one engine. Arrival on terra firma was a bit precipitate and he recalled 120+% on the working 'donk'. His comments were colourful!!

PS Old Duffer - Snap!! (nearly :))

[screw fix diret]

Did you have any significant NR decay, was the good engine able to stabilize the NR or did you need to lower the collective to recover it?

[Spacer]

Screw: We did have Nr decay, with the good engine topped out at about 140%. I did indeed have to lower the collective to stabilise it, but then I drooped it more for the flyaway (we got it down to 92%).

[Madbob]

Rather than the makings of an article for Air Clues I see this as being the makings of a Green Endorsement or even an AFC!

Well done Spacer - and to your crew! :D:D

MB

[vecvechookattack]

Rather than the makings of an article for Air Clues I see this as being the makings of a Green Endorsement or even an AFC!


What..... For surviving an engine failure? Goodness me...the medal makers would be busy if that was the case....

[Fareastdriver]

On the 332l Super Puma helicopters there is a training limiting box that restricts the max rpm to one engine. The object of this is to reduce the time that the engine spends at Max Contingency during its overhaul life. To keep the andreneline levels correct engine failures are done at a lower calculated weight but the box gives the same engine and rotor reactions as it would if it was at higher weights. Basically you do not have to ballast an aircraft up to MUW to find out how it reacts at that weight with an engine failure; the engine restriction brings the same result at a lower weight.

A civil engine can have a Max Con limit of 2.5 minutes. When that's gone, it's gone and the engine comes out. A military engine, regularly banged up to Max Con during trainng would be unlikely to reach its TBO either. Not the sort of thing to find out when you need it.

[[email protected]]

Vec - if the RN had a similar incident I have no doubt that awards/endorsements would be forthcoming:)
A simple engine fail in fwd flight is one thing but in the hover (and at a power that SOPs would say was committed) over the sea at night it is a whole new game and Spacer did an excellent job of saving the aircraft and crew.:ok:

[Thomas coupling]

Definitely a GE, I would say. Spacer most certainly saved the a/c.
Interesting scenario though: this is a text book example where the crews are heroes for getting away with it - tea and medals all round. But IF it had ditched during the transition from a committed situation, the world around Spacer would have buried him in condemnation.

This is the domain of the Captain - welcome.

This is the area which sorts the men out from the boys (sorry wheat from chaff)!). Very rewarding and yet, so very unforgiving............

How to 'teach' this to ab initio's:hmm: That is the question.

Spacer you dun good, son - take a days leave:D

[[email protected]]

FE driver - the Sea King advanced single engine exercises are conducted with the 'good' engine in manual at a set Tq figure that ensures no limits are reached, let alone exceeded so the engines are not regularly banged up to max con in training - they don't even get to inter con on the SE package. The setup allows for overpitching and allows simulation of a poor engine in a heavy aircraft albeit at normal training weights.

We do 25 hourly PPIs up to inter con limits to assess the health of the engine so there is no reason for them not to make their TBO.

[Fareastdriver]

Crab. Nice to hear. I lost a friend on a Puma before the days of restricting engines during practise failures. The engine doing all the work at Max Con threw in the towel and they both died.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

IF it had ditched during the transition from a committed situation


Hmmm. Had the flyaway not worked, the ditching would have happened pretty quickly (within 5-10 secs of commencing the flyaway). The forward speed achieved by the aircraft in the first 5-10 secs of a flyaway would be pretty modest, so a ditching at low speed is presumably going to be rather similar to a vertical ditching from the hover. Therefore no grounds for condemnation...

[vecvechookattack]

Vec - if the RN had a similar incident I have no doubt that awards/endorsements would be forthcoming
A simple engine fail in fwd flight is one thing but in the hover (and at a power that SOPs would say was committed) over the sea at night it is a whole new game and Spacer did an excellent job of saving the aircraft and crew.

Absolute rubbish. I have suffered 3 engine failures in my career (all in Fwd flight) and suffered 1 ditching and not even a sign of a "Good show". Lots of friends and colleagues have suffered engine failures in the hover... and no prices were given (1 chap got a green endorsement)

Spacer did a superb job but if we were to give an AFC for every engine failure then the AFC would be worthless... Lets give him a pat on the back, a "good show" but not an AFC please

[drugsdontwork]

Seen the footage, good work mate

[Spacer]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts on this. I hope it's started a chat in the crew room about what you'd do if faced with a similar situation. Happy Christmas, and safe flying!