EK DEC's- Future Recruitment? [Archive]

Netset

8th Dec 2010, 05:39

I appreciate that I am venturing into dangerous grounds by posting such a thread, however may I please enquire whether there any plans to recruit DEC's with Emirates in the near future?

It seems that at present they are finding enough First Officers for interviews and recruitment. However as I read the aviation industry is envisaging a global shortage of pilots.

Could anyone with inside information shed some light on EK's future plans? Any information or feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Saltaire

8th Dec 2010, 05:45

You may, but EK is not planning any DEC's for the forseeable future. Looking for a 380 DEC job?

Carry on.

MosEisley

8th Dec 2010, 06:30

If they do they will then experience a shortage of first officers soon after. I know many current FOs that are on the brink of leaving as it is. If they don't step up this spring with a nice raise and bonus that may be enough for a bunch to leave. If you add DECs to that mix it may very well be a critical tipping point.

ManaAdaSystem

8th Dec 2010, 07:42

And where would the EK Effohs leave to?

If EK takes DECs, it would generate more noise on PPRUNE, but that's pretty much it.

MosEisley

8th Dec 2010, 09:18

That's exactly the attitude that will bite EK in the a$$, flamebait. There are many other places to go now, EK isn't the only game in town.

fatbus

8th Dec 2010, 09:23

If there is so many other options then why don't they leave and why do they still come? DEC's hope not but EK do not care about people they only care about money.

MosEisley

8th Dec 2010, 12:09

Because leaving is a drastic step. There are families to consider. If you read what I wrote, most are waiting until spring to see if EK steps up. If they don't then we will see if I'm full of it.

ManaAdaSystem

8th Dec 2010, 12:28

Spot on, Banana!

skyvan

8th Dec 2010, 13:16

One of the bigger challenges for companies run by beancounters and emotionally deficient managers is understanding the concept of the value of skilled staff, and the benefit of staff loyalty.

While the numbers say that you don't need to pay a 10 year employee any more than a 1 year employee doing the same job, the reality is that few if any of the recent crop of efficiency and economically beneficial ideas that have recieved awards have come from the first year wonders. Also, when non-normal operations occur, the employee with experience will often just get on and get the job done, unlike the person with little experience who doesn't know what can be done, and so will allow the situation to deteriorate while waiting the arrival of a senior person.

To say that pilots have not been leaving in droves recently is as much a smokescreen as saying that all the pilots are looking at leaving soon. Very few pilots, worldwide, do not keep their ear to the ground about better positions (not necessarily monetary, but also respect and culture based).

While there has not been a huge number of pilots leaving, there has also been a economic crisis at play which has kept many here as economic prisoners. As the effects of that crisis decay, the rest of the world is also recovering, and many are watching with interest to see what jobs come available that are best suited to their particular requirements. The only way to keep those people here is to provide a motivation, and for to FOs, that motivation tends to be the Upgrade. Jeopardise the Upgrade and the FO has little or no reason to stay in an environment that is far removed from his comfort zone.

And as each day passes, the crew become more experienced, and more attractive to other operators. The carrots offered to entice you to stay are needing to get bigger and better to be effective.

Of course, having said all of the above, I have no doubt that for the managers it is just a numbers game, so long as enough pilots are applying, the courses are being filled and there are no planes left on the ground through a lack of crew (which could be blamed on them, thereby placing their bonus at risk!), they really are not too concerned.

ManaAdaSystem

8th Dec 2010, 13:32

Jeopardise the Upgrade and the FO has little or no reason to stay in an environment that is far removed from his comfort zone.

Except moving to an airline where he would end up at the bottom of the list, and in another environment far removed from his comfort zone. That would see him move from one forum to another here at PPRUNE, followed by endless "how bad things are here in Turkey, Korea, China, Japan, India, Singapore, Qatar, Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Kuwait".

Can't even go to FR as they only hire pay to fly Effohs.

skyvan

8th Dec 2010, 13:49

Yes, Manadasystem, you are right, to a certain extent, for that does apply to many of the older FOs who may be getting a bit long in the tooth to look at a seniority system that will take 10 years or more to command. That does not apply to the younger pilot, who, having been here a year or so, and having experienced the culture of "no mistakes allowed", and then DECs start to join, and he sees his Upgrade slide to 7+ years away. He has nothing to stop him from walking away and, now that he has Big Shiny Jet time, joining a Major in his home country.

Of course, maybe the management have done their homework, and have been able to estimate just how hard the screws can be turned before crewing becomes a problem. Maybe, but I doubt it.

ManaAdaSystem

8th Dec 2010, 13:52

I think they have done a pretty "good" job so far.

Instant Hooligan

8th Dec 2010, 14:24

Wait till the "sleeping giant" awakes and the Americans go home. Now the 2nd largest pilot group at EK

Large portion of which were RJ captains, now being bypassed for command (pissed off). Nothing really to keep them here and they have all the mins for the US majors already.

Thanks for the fish EK

MosEisley

8th Dec 2010, 14:39

To answer one of the questions, this is not the same group as before. These are people I know personally who have simply had enough of the games and bs. Mana, you and the like can continue to believe what you want but people from my part of the world can only be pushed so far. We have never been too keen on totalitarian authority that operates without any form of checks and balances.

411A

8th Dec 2010, 14:43

Wait till the "sleeping giant" awakes and the Americans go home. Now the 2nd largest pilot group at EK

Suspect a correct statement.
Massive pilot hiring (not to mention, recalls) for the US majors, in the next couple of years, due mostly to the age 65 guys going away.
EK might just have to pony up more reasonable conditions.
DEC's included.:}

Instant Hooligan

8th Dec 2010, 14:59

411A,
I would never normally agree with you but this little fact may just bite EK. I don't think they have any idea the numbers involved once the retirements kick in not to mention growth.

fliion

8th Dec 2010, 15:24

I know a lot US FO's and NONE of them are planning on going back to a taxable $26,000 (CAL) 1st year pay with no healthcare and upgrade a decade away - none. Fedex is out due residency rule. Not to mention commuting to NY for a couple of years (cant raise a family there - too expensive)

Are they frustrated? Yes, in particular the Airbus guys as they dont get their monthly fix a la T7 crew - but stupid? No.

IXNAT

8th Dec 2010, 15:49

Ah, but what about the over 100 American pilots that still have active recall rights at their US carriers. EK was always a stop gap measure. Most have recall bypass rights, will bypass until the bond is over and then zap---go back to their airline, have a 1000 or so behind them on their seniorty list and roll in at about 5+ year pay. Stay at EK? Whadda you think?

fatbus

8th Dec 2010, 16:04

Where are these American pilots suddenly going to go? and if the "100" got up and left all at once so what, do you really think that would make any difference an extra 2.5 % flying /month until they replaced them ( that is another issue) but any number of pilots leaving will not cause a reacting by EK. Sorry boys but don't get your hopes up.

Instant Hooligan

8th Dec 2010, 16:26

Like has been said you literally have no idea of the numbers involved with retirements not to mention growth. The new Delta has over 12,000 pilots and that's just 1 airline.
Time will tell.

FUSE PLUG

8th Dec 2010, 19:00

Fliion,

I'm a former RJ Capt, I will be bypassed for upgrade on the T7, and as soon as a major hires me I'm outta here inspite of the initial financial setback. I will not look back and know dozens of other guys who have the exact same mindset.

Few will stay, many will leave.

FP

411A

8th Dec 2010, 19:00

The new Delta has over 12,000 pilots and that's just 1 airline.
Time will tell.
Indeed it will, DAL, as just one example, has a 630 Captains going away next year, nearly twice that number the following year.
Continental has already recalled everyone...hiring now.

fatbus

8th Dec 2010, 23:22

well it's Dec 2010 and there is @250 pilots from the USA lets see what that number is next year and the year after that. And good luck to those that leave, some will be happy you did.

Wizofoz

9th Dec 2010, 02:42

WVT,

Things are different than in the past as-

1) the US is facing large scale retirements due to it being 5 years since they changed from 60 to 65 for retirement.

2) EK has a much larger number of US pilots then previously (It was less than 50 four years ago).

3) The US guys tend to be the younger, more mobile demographic.

We are at capacity training at the moment only counting for "Historic" levels of attrition (which I believe we are now exceeding) and expected aircraft arrivals.

Each pilot who leaves is one less on establishment for the around two years we'll be playing catch-up, unless they go for third-party training, which has been a disaster in the past!!

Bird On

9th Dec 2010, 03:21

I was recently told that Airbus F/Os received some upgrade update info which claimed the Company was expecting a 50% failure rate :confused: , :eek:. Blimey!!

Fred Garvin M.P.

9th Dec 2010, 04:34

Wiz,
They are already back to third party training for the initial new hires. Been doing it for about 3 months now.

fatbus

9th Dec 2010, 05:37

3rd party yes but not C4U that was a big mistake

fliion

9th Dec 2010, 05:53

FUSE PLUG,

Re. your point. Many of the RJ guys will, I have no doubt, be pissed off at bypass (and rightly so) however...when truly confronted with a 'Major' offer, it will be a tougher call to leave somewhere when upgrade on a heavy is within striking distance for the slog of 3-4 legs a day, multiple years on reserve, upgrade in 2025, and flying a Mad Dog with some miserable biatch telling you to '...get out of my galley..'...

At the end of the day even with upgrade FCI, you will still get your command here quicker...and it beats doing the Atlanta-LGA-MEM run everyday in a DC-9.

Throw in the fact that taxes, utilities, transport (you will need 2 cars now if married), healthcare etc, are all on top...So the exodus that gets talked about...not buying it.

f.

Wizofoz

9th Dec 2010, 07:39

Fred,

Yes aware of that, but it's a few of the FFS sesions, not the complete type rating.

When they were sending guys to London, Germany and Singapore for an entire, turn-key type rating, the results were pretty dire.

Fred Garvin M.P.

9th Dec 2010, 10:29

Not just a few, they can do up to lesson 8 w/ the new hires, have a lesson or two with EK guys, then EK guys do the check. Third party training is occurring.

Albiet it is done to a higher standard then before.

TangoUniform

11th Dec 2010, 12:29

At the end of the day even with upgrade FCI, you will still get your command here quicker...and it beats doing the Atlanta-LGA-MEM run everyday in a DC-9.

Hmm, fliion, that seems like heaven, compared to all nighters to the sub continent a number of times a month. No brainer. Maybe even ATL-MCO-MIA. Daytime flying, excellent facilities and alternates, Jepps, contractual flying. Forget it, been said a thousand times before here. Oh, and 30 in 7, even in a 60s era aircraft.

fliion

12th Dec 2010, 12:28

Horses for courses...

Just show me the exodus numbers

..Bon voyage

f.

King on a Wing

12th Dec 2010, 15:49

Can anybody let me know who's the Recruitment manager now and how i could contact him/her. This is on some other issue..
Thanks

Kapitanleutnant

13th Dec 2010, 06:09

Have to agree with Tango on this one.... It's just a few things at EK that irk the Canucks and Yanks... major one being no support structure and another being the contractual changes made at EK at will vs what those guys all thought they'd signed up for. To North American's when a contract is signed, it's law.... pure and simple. No changes allowed unless you negotiate. Major difference. Things like that will indeed cause the exodus to occur. Not now but within 12 -18 months just when EK needs the pilots the most. In my opinion.

I chatted up two EK captains in the past few months both of whom are from the US and when asked, they BOTH said they planned on going back to their respective airlines when recalled. That was a shock to me to say the least. I think the North American guys have a differing view on quality of life issues....

K

johnnyramjet

13th Dec 2010, 08:40

777 First Officer
Ryan International Airlines is a top-flight world carrier. Our 30-year reputation for safety and dependability draws professionals in search of career advancement where excellence is always in the air.
We are currently seeking experienced 777 First Officer position/s for our Rockford, Illinois operations. Candidates must have a minimum of 1,000 hours on this type of aircraft to be considered.

johnnyramjet

13th Dec 2010, 08:43

Just looked at the mthly $$ at Ryan Int. $3,700:eek:

filejw

13th Dec 2010, 13:06

Thats a bit optimistic for DAL. I think 12 guys turn 65 next year and it increases through 2017.The real question is how many stay till 65. I think you will see folks bail in the 62/63 range and that unknown will increase hiring. Internal gossip says 600 new hires in 2011.

poina

13th Dec 2010, 13:45

You can find all the US retirement data at www.airlinepilotcentral.com

fliion

13th Dec 2010, 14:13

Ryan International....

If you figure on $3700 per month, your average tax without State witholding is around $834 (Medicare, SocSec, IRS,,,and that includes allowance)

$2800...to fly a 777.

...seriously

f.

atpcliff

20th Dec 2010, 05:43

Hi!

With A Recession bigger than Japan's, which shall be lasting for much much longer, although the propaganda machine would never put that way, what will they go home to?

Delta is hiring.
Continental is done recalling, and will be recalling/hiring in coordination with UAL.
American is recalling, and will be hiring soon.
SWA/AirTran is hiring, and planning on a big expansion next year.
USAir is hiring.
Alaska is hiring.
Atlas/World/Kalitta/Evergreen/Southern are hiring.
ALL of the regional airlines are hiring/recalling.
American Eagle, the largest regional, just had Capt upgrades go from 12 years down to less than 5.

$3700/month for Ryan Intntl FO:
The pay is actually very good starting pay for the US, and one of the reasons why there ARE so many expats.
$3700/month for a 1st year FO is more 1st year pay than:
American
United
Continental
UPS
USAir
Alaska
Hawaiin
ANY regional airline
Most of the charter airlines

In fact, which US airlines pay MORE to first year FOs than Ryan?
The only ones I can think of are Delta, FedEx and Atlas.

cliff
MIA

saviboy

20th Dec 2010, 07:30

Cliff, though I agree that things are turning around in the states, I think you might a little too optmistic. correct me if I am wrong but American still has almost 2000 pilots on furlough. even at 30-50 recalls/ month it will take time. even if some will turn down the recall.
One of my friend is laid off from United and has still not be recalled. He thinks it could take from one to two years before he gets a call.

fatbus

20th Dec 2010, 12:58

Not all of the 250+ US pilots would go back and they certainly would not all go at the exact same time and EK would not be rushing to hire anymore if they thought the new ones would jump ship. But to those that go ,good luck just don't bitch about the US carriers after you go back.

ekwhistleblower

20th Dec 2010, 13:30

Out of interest and this isn't trying to be provocative, 'who would go back to a carrier that furloughed them?'

Essentially they have said 'f you' and shown zip loyalty. Why would you go back to have the long handle of a Louisville Slugger presented again in the future? I understand in the past the reasoning where if you did return and got to 55 with a US major you reached the land of retirement riches and a massive 401k pay off but what is the carrot now?

I know I am struggling to retire with EK so understand the sentiments but wonder about the security of an aviation market that drops its employees when a man in the Bronks decides he'll drive rather than fly for Thanksgiving.

misd-agin

20th Dec 2010, 18:50

saviboy - Cliff, though I agree that things are turning around in the states, I think you might a little too optmistic. correct me if I am wrong but American still has almost 2000 pilots on furlough. even at 30-50 recalls/ month it will take time. even if some will turn down the recall.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

They're having to contact hundreds(600?) to get dozens(50?) to return. Guys can defer and many are taking that option.

FAA manning changes could also require more pilots.

The potential for hiring by 2012 is considered a possiblity (deferments + rules change) by some.

Instant Hooligan

21st Dec 2010, 03:25

Anybody given thought to the idea that the policy on upgrade requirements will mean that the supply of suitably qualified f/o's will be exhausted much sooner and now they have their artificially engineered need for DEC's.
4000 hours over 55T or 3000 EK type and 3 years with company, they'll be running out soon?

Boeing 787

20th Jul 2011, 08:18

Was talking to a friend of mine working as a Captain. One of the many rumours that he heard is that EK is considering recruiting DEC's in the near future.

The reason being that they are not finding the required number of new joiners and it seems that for some reason F/O's are not passing their upgrade evaluation and sim checks. To make matters worse as from next month or so a large number of new B777's and A380's will start being delivered. He told me that everyone seems to be over worked, flying 90hrs per month even though management had promised things will turn for the better earlier this year.

Had a look the EK's recruitment site for any information on the matter. A FAQ states the following:

Does Emirates intend to recruit direct entry Captains?

We currently have many First Officers who are ready to upgrade to Captain, and therefore it is not a priority for the immediate future.

I am presently flying contracts. The money is good and so is the experience flying in different regions. However life sucks being away from home for weeks on end and I have had enough of it. Dubai and EK sound appealing and although I know that I'll be away from home on trips,the number of days at home will surely be more than at present.

Would appreciate any feedback or any truth on the above matter.

Thanks

White Knight

20th Jul 2011, 10:01

millerscourt

20th Jul 2011, 12:29

Boeing 787

I doubt if your friend knows any more than White Knight as to what EK have in mind as regards DEC's in the future.

On the other hand perhaps WK has the ear of management?:}

All I know it is expensive and time consuming to upgrade a F/O and then have to replace him with another.It is not as if by all accounts F/O's are leaving in droves. Airlines that employ expats have always done whatever they like as they know that most of you have little option but to stay.

The problem with DEC's is getting the right ones who are already type rated and EK route experienced which saves time and money getting out on the line. EK have a very extensive route structure in some very demanding areas so EK if they had any sense would upgrade F/O's who are up to speed if unable to attract decent DEC's.

On the otherhand I believe that DEC's were not involved in either of the two A340 incidents at JNB and MEL?

White Knight

20th Jul 2011, 12:40

On the otherhand I believe that DEC's were not involved in either of the two A340 incidents at JNB and MEL?

Very true - but a DEC did nearly hit the hills to the west of Nairobi a few moons back...

Then again - you'll get all kinds of pilots having all kinds of incidences! Look at the Avianca 747 in Madrid. A 25,000 hour pilot in the left seat there...

Patty747400

21st Jul 2011, 03:09

If, as rumours have it, the pool of applicants is drying up and they have problems finding pilots to fill the seats, then it must only be a matter of time. And I doubt it will be a long time.
However, there won't be thousands of applicants for those positions either. The pilot community is well aware of the hard work in EK and the (lack of) quality of life in Dubai.
I was interested before but every time I layover in Dubai the place lose more and more of its attraction. I have some 20 friends working for EK and they range from 1-20 years in the company so I believe I have a fairly good insight in what living in Dubai means;
It's a way of paying your bills but as soon as you can afford it you leave.