Carriage of Goods - Australia

[jad79]

Okay Aussie drivers, Quick question.. Sure I could spend time flicking through the CAR's etc but I'm sure there are many of you out there that know this one..

Carriage of Crayfish for sale to a restaurant (then resold).. Commercial or Private Operation??

Carriage of Crayfish for non-payment from restaurant (but to be resold).. Commercial or Private Operation??


Thanks in Advance,

Jad

[compressor stall]

Sure I could spend time flicking through the CAR's etc

So why don't you. :mad:

[jad79]

basically, the CAR's are vague! People with real life experience of whom visit forums such as this may be able to point me in the right direction.

Hope this satisfies your response.

[Cactusjack]

Carriage of Crayfish for sale to a restaurant (then resold).. Commercial or Private Operation??
Carriage of Crayfish for non-payment from restaurant (but to be resold).. Commercial or Private Operation??

Firstly, make sure they are packed in a styrene box, there are layers of plastic underneath so no spillage permeates any part of the aircraft and ensure a NOTOC is filled out for the PIC.
Secondly, make sure the loaders stash a box somewhere so the Cray's can be divied up later and everybody gets an early Xmas present ! Yum.

[apache]

why would you carry freight for free?

[jad79]

Thanks for the info Cactus! I am assuming this is a commercial operation regardless of resale of crays or not??

I am looking through the CAR's but as mentioned, very vague!

[jad79]

Apache, aircraft is used for private ops however is mostly empty on return to base. Crays would be carried as owner had ties to a restaurant that sells them.

[ops_guy]

I think it's pretty easy to determine from the C.A.R that it's commercial ops.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Reminds me of a passenger who turned up at a major airline check in counter close to Christmas with a polystyrene box of live crabs and waved away questions about approvals, because she had a letter from her fish and chip shop man to say it was okay to travel with them by air and that covered all the necessary paperwork. :ugh:

In the end an exasperated staff member marched her over to the very crowded baggage services counter and shouted at them "THIS LADY'S GOT CRABS". The guys at the counter tried their best to maintain corporate straight faces and failed dismally. It also cheered up the poor souls in the lost baggage queue, which is quite hard to do.
Sorry, drift complete. :}

[Capn Bloggs]

WitW, ROTFLMAO! :D

[frigatebird]

Firstly, make sure they are packed in a styrene box, there are layers of plastic underneath so no spillage permeates any part of the aircraft and ensure a NOTOC is filled out for the PIC.
Secondly, make sure the loaders stash a box somewhere so the Cray's can be divied up later and everybody gets an early Xmas present ! Yum.



Reminds me of the Saturday afternoon Twin Otter flights from Linua in the northern Torres islands. Pretty hard to explain to the suppliers who would roll up with their catch, wriggling and dripping seawater, in woven coconut frond baskets, to put onto the service.. (Along with all the other passengers trying to travel down..) 'Course if they didn't get carried, would mean the tourists in the better restaurants in Port Vila would miss out on the Saturday night 'Fresh Lobster Special'..

And that prompts recollections of when Air Nauru carried meat parcels that leaked blood while in the holds during carriage to Nauru. Verry salty, blood, and corrosive of aluminium, - cost a lot to sort that out later.

Another time, the co-pilot and I had a strong chemical smell while going Honiara to Munda in a Twotter. Investigations on landing found an upturned jar with a lost lid of fibreglass resin in a passengers backpack, that had been missed at check-in. Just as well it had only spilt on his bag in the nose locker, had we been going further before landing it would have dripped onto the other passengers luggage too.

[Checkboard]

Paragraph (d) of subregulation 2 (7) of the Civil Aviation Regulations 1988 sets out the operations that are classed as private operations.

(v) the carriage of persons or the carriage of goods without a charge for the carriage being made other than the carriage, for the purposes of trade, of goods being the property of the pilot, the owner or the hirer of the aircraft;(my bold)

So you can carry "goods" in an aircraft on a private operation - provided you do not intend to trade them. You could carry food, if the owner was going to use it to feed employees, for instance. You could carry tools which the owner uses in their business - but you cannot carry goods intended for trade.

[brad_nz90]

I believe it might be private, because a guy in the North Island of New Zealand raises little chicks for a business and he flies around the country delivering them to chicken companies for sale. Hes been doing it for years in a Partenavia and he is only on his PPL.

Funny Fact he was saying he can only fly 1000-2000 feet high because he has like 6000+ chicks on board and the amount of chicks in there is equivalent of 50people so he will become hypoxic if he goes to high. Plus when hes on the radio you can hear cheep cheep cheep in the background haha

[Sunfish]

Checkboard:

Paragraph (d) of subregulation 2 (7) of the Civil Aviation Regulations 1988 sets out the operations that are classed as private operations.

Quote:
(v) the carriage of persons or the carriage of goods without a charge for the carriage being made other than the carriage, for the purposes of trade, of goods being the property of the pilot, the owner or the hirer of the aircraft;

So you can carry "goods" in an aircraft on a private operation - provided you do not intend to trade them. You could carry food, if the owner was going to use it to feed employees, for instance. You could carry tools which the owner uses in their business - but you cannot carry goods intended for trade.

I read the regulation quite differently; carriage is perfectly legal as long as the pilot, aircraft owner or aircraft hirer do not have legal title (ie property rights) to the crayfish.

How hard is that to arrange???? How hard is it to arrange for the Missus to buy them? How hard is it to arrange for title to pass to someone else after the flight? All you need are the appropriate invoices and receipts.

P.S. DO NOT RELY ON STYROFOAM CONTAINERS. The professionals seem to rely on plastic storage boxes, which are generally leak proof and can also be cleaned and stack properly.

[Hasselhof]

Funny Fact he was saying he can only fly 1000-2000 feet high because he has like 6000+ chicks on board and the amount of chicks in there is equivalent of 50people so he will become hypoxic if he goes to high.

If that's his understanding of human physiology then you can guess how good his understanding of aviation regs are then.

[jad79]

Thanks for the replies guys.. much appreciated.

So from what I understand, if the goods are for trade it becomes a Commercial operation.

But to be technical.. if the restaurant owner is only paying the cost of the crays, and is in no way paying for the actual delivery would it justify a Private operation??

[MyNameIsIs]

Don't use styrofoam boxes. Seen too many of those break and spill their contents in aircraft. Messy. Go for plastic crates/eskies (or 'chulli buns' if you are in NZ).

Also make sure things are not packed in water/ice as if you do have a box break and spill, the result is lots of nasties.


frigatebird- ahh the fibreglass resin.... Remember the foam eskies of seafood from SCZ in the nose locker? I hated the smell coming through into the cockpit on the 2.5hr flight back to HIR, nearly turned my stomach once or twice!


Oh as for the original topic- I would say that if they are being sold to a restaurant, especially for resale, then that is commercial ops.

[Cactusjack]

Most carriers will load the product into the cargo hold inside a styrene box with a layer of plasitc lining under the box with an additional layer of cardboard under that. Even freshwater fish packed in ice can be a problem because the ice melts slightly and the fish have numerous chemicals in them so if a spill occurs this can still cause corrosive damage, albeit not as bad as a saltwater fish product.
Then again, I have seen a 737 a cargo hold after it has been packed with live baby ostriches and the entire floor has been covered in pi#s and sh*t which also doesn't mix well with aluminium.

I also saw Pacific Air Cargo 727 undergo a 'C' check after it has been running seafood out of Brisbane to Honiara for a considerable period of time and the underfloor was so coroded it was a miracle the thing was still flying.

I have also seen a 747 freighter with giraffes and elephants in the upper cargo deck, the animals have pi#sed copious amounts in their enclosure on the pallet ( not fully water proof) and then the golden nectar has made its way through the floor onto the heads of the rampies loading the lower cargo holds !! The stench was unbearable, the rampies furious and the engineers went nuts at having to mop up the mess !

[chimbu warrior]

a guy in the North Island of New Zealand raises little chicks for a business

Sounds like a pimp.

[Worrals in the wilds]

And then the golden nectar has made its way through the floor onto the heads of the rampies loading the lower cargo holds !!

How disgusting :eek:! 747 goat charters are bad enough. No matter how good your lung capacity is, you just cant walk the length of a 747 without taking at least one breath along the way :yuk:.

I remember the seafood charters by both them and another carrier. If they got delayed in Honiara (which happened fairly regularly) the seafood started to thaw out and leak everywhere. A couple of times it was pretty ripe on arrival, all present made a mental note to avoid buying sashimi for a few days after.

It may sound obvious but make sure any crustaceans are tied up and can't get away. I saw a polystyrene box of them dropped by a freight mob and several mud crabs made a dash for freedom. I don't know how they got untied but they managed it.

[Cactusjack]

Even better were the days at Ansett. Live crabs sent to Sydney on the domestic network. It was always fun how other 'ports' would on occasion free the muddies from their boxes, cut the strings holding their claws together that way they could run amok in the cargo hold !! The rampies doing the unload would never know where the muddies were hiding or would crawl out from behind some other freight !!

Then again, a few would get turfed over the perimeter fence to be collected at the end of the shift and enjoyed for dinner.......

[FlyCessna]

131757 - ask for "Flying Operations"

Ask someone there what they think - in the cases where I've asked, its been clarified and then you have it straight from the people that will "invite you for tea and biscuits" in the event that your interpretation in wrong....

May as well make CASA earn their money here and there.....

[Checkboard]

OK, try again. :rolleyes:
(vi) the carriage of goods otherwise than for the purposes of trade; ...
(viii) any other activity of a kind substantially similar to any of those specified in subparagraphs (i) to (vi) (inclusive);

[Sunfish]

You left out the last bit.......



............

(v) the carriage of persons or the carriage of goods
without a charge for the carriage being made other
than the carriage, for the purposes of trade, of goods
being the property of the pilot, the owner or the hirer
of the aircraft;

..........................


(viii) any other activity of a kind substantially similar to
any of those specified in subparagraphs (i) to (vi)
(inclusive);

shall be taken to be employed in private operations.



...In other words, the Australian regulation is simply lawyers food; "substantially similar" is the let out that makes the entire regulation meaningless.


I much prefer the FAA definitions:


Commercial operator means a person who, for compensation or hire, engages in the carriage by aircraft in air commerce of persons or property, other than as an air carrier or foreign air carrier or under the authority of Part 375 of this title. Where it is doubtful that an operation is for “compensation or hire”, the test applied is whether the carriage by air is merely incidental to the person's other business or is, in itself, a major enterprise for profit.

Backloading a few crays for the boss? A "major enterprise"?

[aroa]

Cessna ...The answer you get will depend on who you talk to on the day..

Sunfish is right again. Poor regs, Lawyer tucker, CASA, the wallet fcuker.

Maybe a Lawyer can straighten me out ....

The CAA Act 1988... CASA Is NOT a regulator of commerce (sic) it is a SAFETY regulator.

I have a very serious problem with the following intrusions into normal business.

A LAME PPL flys himself and his toolbox to a job...a criminal act. Carrying tools of trade.
An Electrician PPL flys himself to a property with cable and light bulbs for paid job... a criminal act. Goods for trade
A Professional Photograher PPL is commissioned to shoot some pictures for a client.... a criminal act. Making money.

WTF has that got to do with CASA ??? CASA's balliwick is "safety" (supposedly)
They should ONLY be concerned about whether the PPL is duly licenced and has a valid medical certificate, that the aircraft flown has an MR, and the flight was done by the rules VFR / IFR. Just like yr drivers licence and the road rules. THOSE are the SAFETY issues.
Restricting normal commerce is unconstitutional ? THis is why GA is where it is today.
The LAME, the electrician and the photographer are all denied their right to get on with their normal business and earn a living doing what they do..
No aircraft use, no hours, no fuel sales, no maintenance, ground bound.!
Thats Oz GA for ya.!

The Smart country... Porcine Rectum.!
There is NO safety case for this commerce, because the PPLs can fly the jobs... but NOT for money/ normal business commerce.

CASA is truly out of its fn tree !!

And some years ago CASA had a problem with PPLs flying paying people to jump out of aeroplanes , yet the charter operator who picked up the boxes of crabs had to have a CPL.
So what... THEIR rules. The only difference was the crabs didnt get a choice
or buy a ticket.!

SNAFU.!

[LeadSled]

aroa,
Couldn't agree more, and it was all going to change to the US system in 1999 --- but, as they say in the classics --- the Minister changed, and all the rest is history.
Tootle pip!!