Agusta 109A MKII

[BulePilot]

I searched posts everywhere but couldn't find any info on the Agusta 109A MKII. Can anybody with experience or knowledge about this model give me a some feedback, mostly about performance and maintenance/operating cost/spare parts. Also a comparison with 109C. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

[spinwing]

Mmmm ...

A maintenance nightmare .... corrosion ... airframe cracks ... watch out for tail rotor hub issues and blade cracks .....

Lovely to fly when its working properly!!


:}

[BulePilot]

Spinwing, do you refer these nightmares to only 109A MKII or the 109C model also?

[Ascend Charlie]

We had a Mk2 Plus with the C20R engines.

Biggest problem was its weight, with full seats we had 45 mins safe endurance, and with full fuel it was pilot plus 2!

And during the flight, the weight never went down - any fuel burnt off was deposited on the tailboom as soot!

[spinwing]

Mmmm ...

..... 109MkII .... and the one I was intimately aquainted with only had 2400 Hrs AFTT !

Happily it got sold .... and eventually became an Insurance write off :D


:E

[mfriskel]

So what are you trying to say? Not your first choice for a light twin?

[vfr440]

Spinwing is broadly correct. It would be a VERY good idea to have a trained and experienced engineer (mechanic) as part of your operation. The A109's biggest disadvantage is that it looks like a grown-up JetRanger, so it is assumed you can give it to a pilot on his own and tell him to pucsh off for 100hrs flying ( and just check-in somewhwere for a s'plate grease at 50hrs). That doesn't work :=

Like most things Italian, it is wonderful when it is going right, :) but it will need TLC on a daily basis to ensure it continues to do so; and to pick up small sniggles before they become big (and expensive) ones. Hence the need for an engineer to be around.

Weight on teh C model especially is a problem; no weight engineer in attendance when it was developed from the Mkll.

This just for info and gained from (too) many years of experience ~ VFR

[spinwing]

Mmmm....

Well actually it all depends on what your going to do with it and what sort of maintenance organisation is going to support you ....

If you want a machine that is not going to cost you a fortune to keep on the line then NO its not my first choice ...

If the costs are not a worry to you ... then it can be a fine machine if your mechanics can keep up to it ... it IS a complex little beast and the MkII is OLD ... best go with something more modern ... it might end up cheaper in the long run.


:E

[RVDT]

A bit like a Ferrari...................it's the fastest way to get to where you will break down next!

[BulePilot]

Thanks guys for all the feedback so far. Doesn't sound too promising, but I kind of expected that. My employer wants to get a twin, but is on a budget. Usage is for private & corporate use, but also want to offer sightseeing flights, so an AS355F2 or later model would be a better option. They have absolutely no experience in aviation. A bit naive. They even looked into a TwinRanger and Bell222!!! That would have been a bigger nightmare than the A109. We're here in Indonesia, where it's difficult enough to get a good engineer to provide good maintenance service. Any feedback on AS355F model?

[Hell Man]

Given your location and the issue of technical support you would look into sourcing an IPTN/Pelita NBo 105.

[spinwing]

MMM ....

An Indonesian pilot friend of mine swears by the MD902 he was flying there ...

Yes they have issues ... perhaps if your employer can lease one (complete with maintenance support) to see how the operation goes ... and if that then works can make the decision to buy once the learning curve flattens ??? that might be a good option.


:cool:

[paulosaints]

And about A109E Power? Its a very good twin for your employer!

[BulePilot]

I flew the MD900 for a few years and loved it. But unfortunately too expensive for my employer.
How does the A109E Power compare with A355N?
AS355NP would be perfect, but once again, too expensive :ugh:

[madman1145]

BulePilot.

It's always good to listen to other peoples experiences.
But with all respect to peoples responses in this thread, I wouldn't base my buying of a helicopter solely on such responses.

I recommend you gain access to "Conklin & de Decker" and/or "HeliValue$ Blue Book" databases for such an important budget.

- madman

[BulePilot]

madman1145, of course I don't solely base the selection of the helicopter on this thread, otherwise I'd be a madman :E
but since I don't have any experience with Agusta 109s, it's always interesting to hear what fellow pilots have to say. It's rather part of the selection process. I take the feedback from this thread with a grain of salt, but at the same time I think most info is based on pilot's experiences, so it's good info and interesting to hear about it. I also talk to operators and check performance data (mainly HOGE, HIGE).

[Saint Jack]

Choosing a helicopter to operate in Indonesia is not as easy as it sounds and I can fully understand BulePilot’s position. Unless you wish to be an innovator it is always best to determine which potentially suitable models are already on the register (try not to be a ‘first-of-type’ operator, it can lead to significant additional expenses) and what are the in-country support facilities available. Pilots and mechanics are still reasonably plentiful in Indonesia BUT good pilots and good mechanics are very scarce so you may wish to consider the knowledge and experience of your (potential) crews in the helicopter selection process.

Having said that, the suggested Bo-105, AS355F2 and Bell 222 are certainly cheap but are also old technology. The MD902 is relatively modern but has had a chequered career in Indonesia and I doubt that any practical support network is available locally. The ‘Twin Ranger’ is an interesting choice but as it’s not a Bell product I suspect that the excellent Bell product support system would not want anything to do with it.

So where does this leave us, if the later models of the A109 range are to be discounted on their cost and complexity, then it seems to leave only the Bell 427 as a viable choice. There are already a small handful of 427’s in Indonesia plus there is an existing Bell product support system in place together with a Bell technical representative. An additional bonus is that almost all Indonesian pilots and mechanics have had ‘Bell’ experience at some point in their careers. Good, clean and basic used 427’s are not expensive and there are a number on the market, but remember it’s not an IFR machine.

[ricksheli]

Saint Jack

With regard to the Twin Ranger, Bell did in fact manufacture this aircraft from new with the L4 airframe, granted they also used the soloy STC. I'd be interested in how difficult the Twin Ranger is to maintain, I've had a look at it (from an operational point of view), seems to be an L4 with C20r's and a combining gearbox ( Soloy ) and the oil coolers moved forward in front of the hydraulic pack. I also looked at the 427 and think that your suggestion of that very sound.