Thunderstorm chaos

[Dangnammit]

Have a look at the aircraft movements on webtrack when the storm hit Melbourne today.
WebTrak: Melbourne International Airport (http://www331.webtrak-lochard.com/webtrak/mel3)
You need to uncheck the 'show current flights' box first then put in 02/12/2010 @ 2:28pm. Put the replay speed up otherwise you'll be watching forever.
They eventually come back overhead for a left base 09.

I forgot to mention that flight info can be obtained by placing the mouse cursor over the plane or clicking 'display' and then 'aircraft info tags'

[Jack Ranga]

Have a look at about 150 radius of Albury from about 5pm local today :ugh:

[Capn Bloggs]

They eventually come back overhead for a left base 09.

My god! I hope they programmed the FMS for that! :}

[polair911]

they were all holding over Port Phillip Bay!!!:eek:

[ReverseFlight]

I was shocked to see light aircraft in MB's circuit as a real mother of a black cloud hovered over, like the alien spaceship out of "District 9". As the downdrafts and lightning started to zip down from a funnel within the menacing mass, the planes were pushed earthwards like by some giant invisible hand and they started to scatter in all directions to avoid it. Scary. :zzz:

[Zigzag]

Whilst we are on the subject on webtrak and Melbourne Airport, check out today from 1740 or so for about 20 mins - a C441 hanging around flying pretty low. Ends up over the top of the airport at about 1757.

Anyone have any ideas what it was doing, and who for? Was it something to do with airservices? (Just curious as I saw it in the flesh, and couldn't work it out!)

Thanks

[VH-XXX]

Whilst we are on the subject on webtrak and Melbourne Airport, check out today from 1740 or so for about 20 mins - a C441 hanging around flying pretty low. Ends up over the top of the airport at about 1757.

Anyone have any ideas what it was doing, and who for? Was it something to do with airservices? (Just curious as I saw it in the flesh, and couldn't work it out!)



ZigZag you were not the only one to see that today.

I was at a house auction in Clayon (sort-of near Moorabbin for those elsewhere), rego was VH-VED. First realised it was there when the auctioneer stopped the auction and looked up to see what the hell was making such a loud noise, fearing for his life as it got louder (seriously) thinking it was dropping in to join us. It appeared from the south-east at around 250-300ft if that, in a 45 degree bank with rego clearly visible. Didn't know what it was at the time as it flashed past so quickly at that low level.

[Sprite]

.............

[VH-XXX]

I also thought it was in trouble, but as it powered up and banked away hard, I thought it looked impressive, then Mrs-XXX commented "gee that looked good!"

[Wally Mk2]

VH-VED like a lot of other A/C is on a preffered list to be used by certain Govt agencies.Perhaps they where looking for rouge auctioneers 'XXX':E


Wmk2

[alphacentauri]

Yep its a CASA procedure revalidation mission. They are low level checking out known obstacles and looking for unknown ones.

You should see them around most of country Victoria over the coming days.

Alpha

[Homesick-Angel]

And how do you score that job!Low level fly bys over built up areas approved by CASA!Im in..:E

[Bevan666]

I saw it doing a low pass along RW 34 at YMML on Sunday. Wondered what on earth was going on.. :confused:

[sisemen]

Interesting web page! Do they do a similar one for Perth and the other major Oz cities? And if so how does one access it??

[Trent 972]

More TS antics in Brisbane tonight (15 December). QF126 AKL-BNE (http://www331.webtrak-lochard.com/webtrak/bne3) 5.05pm for rwy01 makes a meal of it.

[megle2]

Wouldn't say he made a meal of it.
Lined up visually but xwind / downwind prevented a stabilised approach.
Went around as he should, well done.

[Capn Bloggs]

(15 December). QF126 AKL-BNE 5.05pm for rwy01 makes a meal of it.
The only "plane" (apart from jaba in the weeds out west) I can see at that time is a 734 BNE>OOL attempting to land on 01. I sincerely hope they arrest the PIC because he must have had the AP out to do that! :=:=:ugh::ugh::eek::confused::}:bored:

Journos (yes you, Ben) note: I'm being silly! :D

[Trent 972]

Without placing too much faith in the accuracy of webtrack recordings.
If you time his descent rate from 1,000m alt down to 153m a solid 1,000fpm - all ok. A little highish on approach there too, - but still ok. At 153m (let's call that about 500ft) the track over the ground indicates that he is 600m left of the extended centreline for RW01. At that time YBBN had aircraft holding as a TS (described by the BOM meteorologist on the evening news, as the storm seasons first 'Supercell'), passed the SE boundary of the airport.
No arguments about doing the Go-Around, good decision.
Why was the aircraft out to the left of the LLZ and making those turns on approach? Was he dodging around a very active TS that was dropping 5cm hail stones at that same time?

[Capn Bloggs]

Why was the aircraft out to the left of the LLZ and making those turns on approach?

It's pretty obvious he wasn't doing an ILS...isn't it? May I submit that he was doing a visual approach keeping away from...perhaps inclement weather to the SE of final... :cool:

[Trent 972]

Of course you are correct Bloggsie. However do passengers buy tickets to fly QANTAS (OH sorry Jetconnect) to race Thunderstorms to their destination.
The thrust of my post is, If you are that desperate to continue an approach to and below 500 ft in those conditions then I've got the wrong idea on the QF safety policy.
ps. Earlier aircraft declined the offer of making an approach as did following aircraft until the wx had cleared.

[PLovett]

If you watch the next 10 minutes or so after the attempted landing you will see a Fokker 100 out of POM hold to the SW and then divert to, I presume OOL, and the QANTAS 734 also decide to head in that direction.

It was also noticeable that the ground noise stations to the SW of BNE were giving raised readings at regular intervals. That of course may have been due to passing trucks but it also looked like it could have been thunderclaps.

[Capn Bloggs]

I think you are drawing conclusions based on questionable information and understanding of what is going on. By all means, chuck the book at them after having a look at the real data. My take is that it was merely an interesting, lateral-thinking approach that didn't work out and I'd leave it at that. ;)

[Trent 972]

...you will see a Fokker 100 out of POM hold to the SW and then divert to, I presume OOL, and the QANTAS 734 also...
Actually PL,they both landed at Brissy some 30 minutes later.

[Jabawocky]

The only "plane" (apart from jaba in the weeds out west) I can see at that time is a 734 BNE>OOL attempting to land on 01.

Who told you Bloggsie :ok: Actually I did come on from out west the day before, some storms to keep clear of but nothing like the monster of a cell yesterday afternoon. From the view I had safely in my Landcruiser it was a sight alright!

Just watched the QF flight and zoomed up appropriately the "Visual Approach" looked OK to me, at that time I had a good view of the storm and it was clear to the NW of the cell, and the track I see shows it tracking straight down the runway. Maybe your map is wonky? :confused:

The webtrack is very accurate from my observations in the past.

[megle2]

After his go round the new atis was

ATIS YBBN I 150711
APCH: EXP INSTRUMENT APCH
RWY: 01
OPR INFO: POSSIBLE DELAYS
FOR SOUTHBOUND JET DEPARTURES
DUE TRAFFIC MANAGEMENT,
HIAL ON
+ WIND: 150/20,
MAX DW 18,MAX XW 23
+ VIS: REDUCING TO 5000M IN RA
CLD: FEW018 FEW025 FEW035CB
+ TMP: 22
+ QNH: 1009
+ SIGWX: TS AT AD

[notaplanegeek]

http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1292450197/141/4465141_600x400.jpg

From stuff.co.nz

'More storms are predicted to hit Brisbane today, a day after tennis ball-sized hail caused havoc in the city's south and east.' Sporting flying at YBBN

[Trent 972]

Yes it was clear to the north of the aerodrome, (The noise monitors on the RW extended centreline give a good indication of the storms whereabouts at the time.) and as the QF976 departed RW01 just prior to the QF126 GA, the tower reported wind was Easterly at 9 - 12 knots. I have no argument with the aircraft making a visual approach, my concern is the action below 500ft and the local wx conditions in the area at that time. If you want to have another look at Webtrak at 05.05.31pm local (15 December)(pause the playback there) you will see that the aircraft is indicated alt - 150m (500ft) in a left turn towards the runway but still 50 degrees off runway heading. (Not meeting the 'stable' criteria that we have in mainline QF anyway). The aircraft (according to webtrak) does not Go Around for another 30 seconds from an indicated altitude of 53 metres. Do JetConnect have a '500ft Stable' call, and if so what was going on for the next half minute?

For Bloggsie, I acknowledge that I may be drawing conclusions based on questionable information however I don't have any doubt as to my understanding of what is going on
edit

[Trent 972]

http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2010/12/16/1225971/882848-dec15-storm.jpg

Storm coming over Brisbane Airport. Picture: Mark Calleja Source: The Courier-Mail

[Jabawocky]

Well another batch this afternoon, a bit earlier, and more mayhem

This JQ arrival was trying hard but I assume they diverted to YBSU after bugging out off the 19ILS, and watching the storm front at the time it was pretty huge! :eek:

http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab58/jaba430/JQ855.jpg

[Capn Bloggs]

They'd better have gotten out of MC quickly otherwise they would have got a nice windscreen wash:

http://i521.photobucket.com/albums/w334/capnbloggs/ybbn.gif

[compressor stall]

The aircraft (according to webtrak)

I have great issue with Monday morning quarterbacks on PPRuNe trying to second guess what went on during an approach in such detail.

You don't know how accurate the altitude figures are
You don't know the refresh rates
You don't know how accurate the position is laterally
You don't know what the crew could see out the window
You don't know what kind of instrument approach (if any) was flown
You don't know the airline's procedures

All that I would trust in this webtrack stuff is the noise level at those recorders and seeing the approximate path of an aircraft if it diverts or trundles around stuff.

Save the approach stuffup analysis for a FOQA analysis or equivalent. :=

[Jabawocky]

Bloggs.......You should have seen it an hour earlier!:eek:

[Trent 972]

Compressor,
What I have a problem with is seeing all the young S/O’s in mainline QF who have had any chance of a progressive career stymied by the farming out of routes to the cheapest entity that the QF board can create.
This flight was a QANTAS flight from AKL-BNE operated by Jetconnect. I would like nothing more than the real data for this approach to be made public knowledge, but I won’t hold my breath.
I’ll tell you something else you don't know. If I started this ‘discussion’ by saying that whilst watching a huge storm approaching, (which was on the airport boundary fence, (go to LiveATC (http://www.liveatc.net/listen.php) for the recording if you wish and download 15 dec 0700Z) I saw a QANTAS 737 coming from over the ‘Brekkie Creek’ turning around the Ascot race course at low level and heading to the east whilst descending and thinking WTF is this idiot up to, you probably wouldn’t believe me.
You can take what you want from Webtrak, but from what I saw, it seems to be 'in the ball park’.

[Jabawocky]

With respect to Stallie, the webtracks feed comes from where? :hmm:

I think Trent has a very valid point, that is the kind of behaviour that you exepect in a northern neighbours airports and it eventually got them banned from EU airspace along with a lot of other tech failures.

Not something you want to see our national icon doing is it?

I bet the real data lines up pretty much with the webtracks.....have a look at the JT thread and the video's posted on youtube!

Its one thing for a PVT operation in his C182 to do that or maybe a Twotter in PNG, but not a B737 in Brisbane.:uhoh:

[Keg]

Does the track resemble an RNAV approach? Was the a/c capable of such?

[Wally Mk2]

We where scooting around the tops of that stuff last night coming back from MK.
Nasty stuff the 'show' was brilliant. Tops where on or about 38K stretching for miles from well inland towards the coast. There where multiple highly active cells in that lot, it all seemed to be merging, the 'perfect storm':-)

'jaba' at least in yr plastic bird the lightening would look for someone else to fry buddy!:-)


Wmk2:-)

[Jabawocky]

Sorry Keg..... no RNAV's like that!

Hey Wally, she is mostly (75%) tin these days :uhoh:

[Fris B. Fairing]

http://www.adastron.com/aviation/vault/Weather-Radar-16DEC10.jpg

[megle2]

I watched the whole approach from when he passed overhead the city until about 300ft on final

Looked a completely normal visual approach pretty well by the river track.
Didn't appear low otherwise I would of lost him behind the Hamo hill.

The CB tracked by the 01 ILS.

No idea about the web track accuracy but by the eye looked fine.

He arrived just after the wind change, wasn't stabilised and correctly went round.

[Trent 972]

So megle2 are you, or anyone able to answer my earlier question as to whether JetConnect have a policy of being 'Stable' by 500ft, and what the criteria for stable is?
Do JetConnect have rules similar to? -

STABLE APPROACH
A stable approach exists when the aircraft is configured for landing, normal approach path, correct thrust, rate of descent and airspeed as required under the prevailing conditions. Unless specified in a published procedure, the aircraft is required to be tracking the extended centreline of the runway with manoeuvring completed by 500 ft RA. If this does not occur, the approach is to be considered ‘Not Stable’ and the PF must execute an immediate missed approach.

I doubt the definition of 'immediate missed approach' would include 30+ seconds later and some 300ft lower.
Perhaps they don't have the above requirements, and it is just a hangover from the olden days for overpriced, inefficient legacy carriers.

[megle2]

Trent
Are you on holidays with nothing else to do?
I don't work for JC so how would I know.

[Wally Mk2]

..........hey 'jaba' I know they are mostly 'tin' as you say it was said with more tongue in cheek as most see the home builts as made of plastic, fiberglass, foam & wood etc (like my toy planes) hence the 'stigma' attached from days gone by/bye/bi:-):ok:


Wmk2

[Trent 972]

Are you on holidays with nothing else to do?
Yep, school finished 2 weeks ago. :ok:


http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m532/Flash_Drive/Qf12615DEC1020minsearlier.jpg
2 'River Track' arrivals 20 minutes prior

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m532/Flash_Drive/Qf12615DEC10.jpg

Looked a completely normal visual approach pretty well by the river track.
I don't think so

[GAFA]

There is no river track from the south, so QFA 126 didn't fly that arrival. The visial approach from the south takes you just to the left of the Gateway (overlfying Cannon Hill) turning final the Gateway.

The last pic of QFA126s track looks like he started out on the ILS and then tracked to the north to miss the weather and carried out a visual approach from the north.

[megle2]

No one said he "flew the river track" rather he flew "pretty well" the river track, meaning he was close by, ok.

[Keg]

I wonder if we can do a BUMET weather radar overlay for roughly the same time (it'll be up to plus or minus six minutes I presume). That would certainly be interesting.

He's well inside the river track. Even allowing for some lateral error on the web track he's probably still well inside it. The go around (can someone occur that's what actually happened?) looks like it may have been due to not being lined up with final by 500'.

Interesting.

[Trent 972]

Stallies questions interested me to look a little further.
You don't know how accurate the position is laterally

(all of these can be verified by listening to the ATC tape (http://archive-server.liveatc.net/ybbn/YBBN3-Dec-15-2010-0700Z.mp3) link - 3.6 mb)

At 05.05 local time, Rescue 500 lifted of the Jackson Oval on Russell Island (20nm from YBBN) with a med 1 for the PA Hospital. http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m532/Flash_Drive/QF126WTRescue500departureRusselIs.jpg

Lateral position accuracy - check

You don't know how accurate the altitude figures are
The next radio call after QF126 GoAround, report was Rescue500 maintaining 1,500ft. (450 m)
http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m532/Flash_Drive/QF126Rescue5001500ftdeparturereport.jpg

Altitude accuracy - check

You don't know the refresh rates
4 seconds, you can time them yourself

You don't know what the crew could see out the window
5 minutes before the GoAround, ATC broadcasted a TS warning "3nm to the east and south" and again as QF126 approached 1,000feet "it's coming down right overhead from south east to northeast and it's at the boundary of the airfield now" Listen to the first 5 minutes of Kegs tape link.
You don't know what kind of instrument approach (if any) was flown
Obviously a Visual Approach, because there is no instrument approach within a Bulls Roar of the track flown by QF126

You don't know the airline's procedures
Correct - But I question any procedure that has the aircraft not 'stable' till 200ft.

Save the approach stuffup analysis for a FOQA analysis or equivalent
Jetconnect, whilst being a wholly owned subsidiary of QANTAS, has a NZ AOC. Will, what would have rang alarm bells loudly in the QF mainline FOQA protocols, ever see the light of day with Jetconnect? I don't know but I've put it on here with only info available in the public domain. It's up to you whether you care enough about what went on.