Is it possible to land on this airports!?

[Skyspirit]

LQSA 1200Z 00000KT 0700 R12/0300V0500U -SNRA FG SCT002 BKN010 OVC025 01/00 Q1011 NOSIG
LQSA 1130Z 00000KT 0800 R12/0450V0650D SN FG FEW002 BKN010 OVC025 01/00 Q1011 NOSIG

LQSA minimums for rwy12: 2250` and 800m RVR

and

LYTV 1500Z 15016G27KT 2000 -RA BR FEW006 BKN027 OVC073 17/16 Q1005 RERA NOSIG
LYTV 1400Z 16016KT 100V190 1500 RA BR FEW006 BKN027 OVC073 16/15 Q1005 NOSIG
LYTV 1300Z 16015G27KT 1500 RA BR FEW006 BKN030 OVC073 16/15 Q1006 NOSIG

LYTV minimums for rwy14: 1660` and visibility 4800m

Is it legally possible to land on this two airport`s like commercial jet operator?

Regards

[Escape Path]

Kind of a weird question...but here it goes :bored:

LQSA 1200Z 00000KT 0700 R12/0300V0500U -SNRA FG SCT002 BKN010 OVC025 01/00 Q1011 NOSIG

LQSA minimums for rwy12: 2250` and 800m RVR

LYTV 1500Z 15016G27KT 2000 -RA BR FEW006 BKN027 OVC073 17/16 Q1005 RERA NOSIG

LYTV minimums for rwy14: 1660` and visibility 4800m

Obviously not, unless I'm missing something particular to both airports :confused:

[Dufo]

Not possible. We couldn't do it today, the same goes for Turkish and all the others. Sarajevo has non-standard ILS with higher minimas and is quite tricky during the winter (another limitation can be the wind and runway 12 departure, which is limited to VMC daytime only).

[Skyspirit]

Yes, but according to airport site "Germanwings" landed at 13.20 local time...it must be right on minimum at that time!

LQSA 301330Z VRB01KT 1100 R12/0800N -FZRA BR FEW002 BKN012 OVC025 01/00 Q1010 NOSIG
LQSA 301300Z VRB01KT 1100 R12/0800V1100D -SNRA BR FEW002 BKN012 OVC025 01/00 Q1010 NOSIG

[Gear Operator]

Is it legally possible to land on this two airport`s like commercial jet operator?

Yes, that is legally possible.

[Skyspirit]

According to Tivat airport site there was one landing at 16.10 local time.

At LYTV 15.30z visibility improved only to 4000, and at 16.00z at 5000

Actually that confused me...

[TopBunk]

1320 local = 1220Z, I think.

The LQSA minima you quote, again I think, are for Cat C aircraft and the 2250' refers to DA (Decision Altitude). The airfield elevation is about 1700', so a cloudbase of 550' is required and not 2250'

The nearest METARs you give are LQSA 1200Z 00000KT 0700 R12/0300V0500U -SNRA FG SCT002 BKN010 OVC025 01/00 Q1011 NOSIG
and
LQSA 301300Z VRB01KT 1100 R12/0800V1100D -SNRA BR FEW002 BKN012 OVC025 01/00 Q1010 NOSIG

In both of these the cloudbase looks ok - the SCT002 wouldn't preclude an approach.

The RVR trend from 1200 to 1300 is upwards, so it could well be that the instantaneous RVR at 1220 would have been legal.

[Gear Operator]

From behind your computer it's impossible to say anything that makes sense, especially comments like:'
it must be right on minimum at that time!


You know the RVR reading from the tower when they started the approach? I don't think so.

BTW

The DA in SJJ is 2243' for cat C acft (Missed appch climb gradient mim 5,0%), which is 600' AGL (ceiling is not required for this approach anyway).

[Skyspirit]

From behind your computer it's impossible to say anything that makes sense, especially comments like:'
Quote:
it must be right on minimum at that time!
You know the RVR reading from the tower when they started the approach? I don't think so.

--------------
Sorry for my english, I wanted to say that they shoot approach (from hold I guess) when weather improved (RVR 800m or slightly better than that...!)

[C-3PO]

In my view, what is illegal is to continue the approach below the da(h) if no visual reference is acquired by then. METARS (and TAFs) are for flight planning purposes only. And it is ok to plan a flight to an airport where u know there’s little chance to meet the minimas on arrival providing you choose not 1 but 2 alternates at destination. Now if on actual arrival you don’t get the matching RVR, you can still fly the app to the da(h) with a high chance of GA. If the reported RVR is just so so, there is still the option of GA and entering a hold to wait for an improvement (within the limits of the fuel planning). In this case, they may have had that in mind but eventually became visual by the da(h) making the landing possible

[bfisk]

Now if on actual arrival you don’t get the matching RVR, you can still fly the app to the da(h) with a high chance of GA.

Not under EU-OPS, you can't, at least. Where do you fly?

(Ref EU-OPS 1.405 - "...The commander or the pilot to whom conduct of the flight has been delegated may commence an instrument approach regardless of the reported RVR/Visibility but the approach shall not be continued beyond the outer marker, or equivalent position, if the reported RVR/visibility is less than the applicable minima....")

[TopBunk]

Now if on actual arrival you don’t get the matching RVR, you can still fly the app to the da(h) with a high chance of GA.

OK my memory is a little rusty, but I don't think you can descend below 1000' ARTE unless you have the required RVR for the approach - ie you can not descend to DA if, at 1000' ARTE, the RVR's are below minima, but you can execute an approach until this point.

[edited to add: crossed with Bfisk - same point made]

[PT6Driver]

You can fly an approach to the outer marker or equivilant position and if the reported RVR is below that required then the approach must be discontinued. However if the RVR is the same or greater than that required the approach can be continued down to DA/MDA. A landing can still legaly be carried out if the required visual refrences are observed even if the RVR is below minimums.
Therefore from the original post if the RVRs were as reported at the outer marker then no you cannot continue the approach. If however the crew recieved actual RVS within limits then yes they could land legaly.
Without listening to the tapes you will not be able to tell as the RVR can vary minute by minute and thus will not be reflected in Metars and TAF's.
Hope this helps

[C-3PO]

Yes I said it badly; I was assuming you were on the brink when passing the OM or equivalent, which surely is the limit otherwise.

[Piltdown Man]

To come to a valid opinion we have to hear what the crew heard, one transmission before they actually passed 1,000' AAL. Then we have to see what they saw. When we have that info, we may be able to come to some sort of opinion - but even then we may be short of many relevant facts.

PM

[737incognito]

As common practice in Montenegro (LYPG & LYTV), by miracle RVR would improve (as reported by twr) to required for approach to commence, just as aircraft is approaching OM and than go down again. So, you are sitting on ground somewhere and reading METAR after METAR for RVR to improve while aircraft are landing without problems.

[Skyspirit]

Thanks all for your answers...