AEROTOXICITY..?? Do You Have It?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

HI all,

I was passed this by a colleague, and thought it might be 'of interest' to all you high flying jet jockeys out there who work in this environment of breathing the aircraft's recycled air - as your occupation.

I have no real interest - nor any 'remuneration' in any form from passing this on.
It is purely for your assessments as you see fit.

Aerotoxic Association - Support for sufferers of Aerotoxic Syndrome (http://www.aerotoxic.org/)

Best Regards to all....:ok:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi 'Mods',.....

I entered this in the 'RPT / Airline Issues' that is 'Reporting Points' as it pertains ONLY to those aircraft, usually the high flying pressurised types, that perform RPT functions.

I was surprised to see it moved to the 'GA' section.

As BAe-146's and the like seem to attract the most publicity over this issue, I thought it would be best left where those aircrew, both pilots and Cabin Attendants, might see it.......??

I've yet to fly a G/A aircraft where this might apply..??

Cheers

[bushpig]

I've long thought this to be a problem but had not yet seen it identified as it is with this article/web page. I would say that this problem has a good chance of being very relevant, to quite an extent, in GA aircraft in Australia as we have quite a few old/not so old King Airs flying that pressurise off bleed air ...and it is recirculated. That is just one GA aircraft. And that is before we get on to aircraft like the Dash 8. Dash 8's (high hour ones as well )are operated by companies in Australia now that are not the mainstream major carriers unlike a few years ago.
The engines in any aircraft are of course replaced/rebuilt/overhauled but there are quite a few hours of operation in between these events. The residual small deposits from the bleed air, I would imagine, could still be in the bleed air lines as well and not flushed out. These lines are used every flying hour to duct very hot air before some of it is "conditioned" for pressurisation purposes.
Thanks for the referral of the article Ex-FSO Griffo it might get a few people thinking.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I've yet to fly a G/A aircraft where this might apply..??
The atmosphere in the Bo can get a bit toxic if anyone f*rts! :E

Dr :8

[Peter Fanelli]

I'm puzzled by this "recycled" bit.
Granted the only pressurised aircraft I've flown is the C421 but I fail to see how the air can be considered recycled.
From my limited knowledge of other aircraft systems you have a source of pressure air, usually the engines, which is fed to the cabin. The exit from the cabin is the outflow valve which exhausts overboard.
Unless the outflow valve exhaust is routed back to the engines to be re pressurised how can one consider the air to be recycled?
If people are referring to the movement of air solely within the cabin while it is there, how is that any different to any confined environment such as a theater or concert hall?
Waiting to be enlightened, and yes I accept that the B787 maybe quite different.

[SeldomFixit]

Peter - quite large volumes of air are recycled by, you guessed it, recirculation fans, on many RPT type aircraft. All in the name of fuel saving and econony. While the air is passed through HEPA type filters, who knows what does and doesn't get back into the cabin from the TB carrier in 66A or the 100's of other exotics from around the world.
speeling edit to avoid the peacekeepers wrath

[601]

quite large volumes of air are recycled by, you guessed it, recirculation fans, on many RPT type aircraft

Recirculated is different to recycled.

If the cabin was completely sealed, we would not need a pressurisation system

Now as the cabin is not completely sealed, a constant supply of outside fresh air is required to maintain pressurisation.

If you are willing, turn the bleed air valves off and see how long you maintain pressurisation.

[bushpig]

I have known of fumes to have entered the cabin of a King Air to the extent that the aircraft had to be depressurised and landed at "nearest suitable" etc. If that contamination were happening to a less extent ie seepage or small amounts of fumes coming from residual in the lines and slightly leaky seals that would also make its way into the cabin.
It would be less noticeable and detectable by human detection means (sense of smell) than when there is a complete failure of some description but it is still not good, in the short term for safety and in the long term for health.
The point of mentioning recirculated air is that it stays there, is recirculated and most likely added to by more coming in. It has also been heated.
Oil used in turbine engines, although harmless enough in appearance, feel and smell is highly toxic and carcinogenic.
In the past I have noticed those carbon monoxide? detectors in aircraft that look to be years old anyway and thought to myself ...well that's all well and good but this is a turbine aircraft and it won't necessarily do much good here...and... what is that slightly oily smell in here anyway?
The subject was raised and I am merely adding my two bobs worth as a subject worth attention. Single pilot in a high performance aircraft at F290 is not the time to find out you have contaminated air. Neither is it good to know (or maybe not know) that your working environment is contaminated even if it is gradual or only a small amount and I suspect that many of them are.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi all,

This article was prompted by a colleague who recently met a 'former' working colleague...who is now no longer working as a RPT pilot because of such a medical condition - diagnosed.

Suffice it to say that this person has lost his Licence, and his job, because of his medical condition.

For info only......

Take care girls and boys....

[4Greens]

Appears to be a bigger problem in turbo props than pure jet aircraft. Any comment?

[SeldomFixit]

601 - where do you suppose the recirculated air comes from ? its mostly expired air from the 300 punters dragged in from cargo or ceiling areas and drawn through the HEPA filters.
Pumped in, breathed in/out, drawn through and discharged back in, to me says, recycled.:rolleyes:

[Checkboard]

What do you think happens to the air in, say a cinema, or pub, or rock concert? :rolleyes:

The air you're breathing now (stand by for a shock! :eek:) may contain elements which have been breathed before! :ooh:

Passengers travel in their millions, and crew in their tens of thousand spend their entire working lives on these aircraft which have been in service now since the very late 50s - several generations of working crew - with nothing to definitely put a finger on, and certainly only a fractional percentage who complain about symptoms.

"Aerotoxicity" (make up a good name to give it credence) is a conspiracy theory of the same order as the Aspartame mob (http://aspartame.mercola.com/). :rolleyes:

[wbble]

AEROTOXICITY..?? Do You Have It?

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Yes, and I'm really not happy about it. I know lots of others suffering with it too, and they’re also having no fun with the consequences.

[AerocatS2A]

Aerotoxicity, if it exists, has nothing to do with recycled air in the air-con system. It is a reaction to oil contamination in the air-con which is caused by low pressure bleed air at the labyrinth seals that keep the engine oil in the engine where it should be. The only thing keeping the oil from entering the bleed air system is the pressure of the bleed air itself. This means that oil can contaminate the system when the bleed pressure is low such as during engine start. There is no doubt that some people suffer short term effects from the exposure including hayfever type symptoms, headache, nausea, etc. It is not clear whether it causes long term effects and it won't be easy to prove because the symptoms are fairly non-specific and could be caused by a number of other things. Many people don't even suffer any short term effects. I've had a number of cabin air quality "events" and I've suffered no ill effects aside from being able to smell oil, other crew members have come off feeling worse though.

[Kelly Slater]

Is there any test available to show that you have Aerotoxic Syndrome or is it a set of symptoms one develops? Can one prove the disease and make a loss of license claim based on this proof? I have no doubt that some people are more susceptible to this kind of thing that others and wonder how they go. wbble, can you shed some more light on the subject please. Assuming you are a flier, have you been forced out?

[wbble]

Yes Kelly, I’m a pilot and got ill after flying the RJ100 and the 757/767. There is no test that will state whether you have Aerotoxic Syndrome, and the term is still not officially accepted. In the UK there are various tests that will look for the relevant toxins in your blood along with the damage caused to your cellular function, liver, DNA etc (http://www.aerotoxic.org/index.php/reports-and-evidence/183-pilot-blood-test-results), and another showing brain cell death caused by toxins etc. And you can get very expensive tests to show autonomic nervous system damage caused by toxins. Neuropsychological tests will show cognitive dysfunction. All this along with a history of symptoms and you may get a specialist who can put it all together, but the best you’ll get is that it may be / is probably caused by breathing contaminated cabin air. But from the get-go, your airline will try and make you believe the problem is in your head and set you off on the path of psychological assessment. (After all, you probably don’t look ill). It’s still not officially a problem, and the tests I mentioned have been shot down by the industry medical experts and lawyers, so will of course will not be accepted as evidence. The mainstream medical establishment, starting with your GP has never heard about AS or contaminated cabin air and will probably conclude you’re suffering from stress and recommend anti-depressants, or refer you for psychological assessment. The system really isn’t set up to help.

[Peter Fanelli]

Aerotoxicity, if it exists, has nothing to do with recycled air in the air-con system. It is a reaction to oil contamination in the air-con which is caused by low pressure bleed air at the labyrinth seals that keep the engine oil in the engine where it should be. The only thing keeping the oil from entering the bleed air system is the pressure of the bleed air itself. This means that oil can contaminate the system when the bleed pressure is low such as during engine start.


I seem to recall the toxicity of jet engine oils being discussed way back when we were doing engines and systems and if I remember correctly this was cited as the reason early jets like B707s and DC-8s ran turbo compressors for cabin pressure instead of using direct bleed air. Seems like a good idea if you ask me and I guess the B787 will be a different kettle of fish regarding this problem.

[Kelly Slater]

Lots of good info but not very encouraging. The question becomes how long do you keep flying for if you suspect but cannot prove that it is killing you and how long away from an aircraft before you start to improve. If you stop flying and eventually feel better for it, you will still not have any definitive evidence that the aircraft was affecting your health. It must be a very difficult choice to stop your career early.

[wbble]

How long do you keep flying? Tricky question. If you think that it is Aerotoxic Syndrome, of course it would be best confirm it as best you can with the most appropriate tests, and if it is, to stop flying to avoid further exposure, sort out your health, then decide whether to go back to bleed air aircraft or flying at all. In reality it isn’t that straightforward decision with family, mortgages, etc. Ultimately your health is number one, plus if you think that you’re no longer performing in the aircraft to a safe standard, of course you have a duty to stop.

This is a good document from the Aerotoxic Association and makes for a sensible discussion on the matter:

Practical Guidance: A few thoughts for the assistance of exposed pilots (http://www.aerotoxic.org/download/docs/advice/Practical%20Guidance%20for%20Pilots%20with%20AS.pdf)

[snail]

I see a comment on the aerotoxic web site that a french company, NYCO, makes a non toxic oil for use in jet/turbine engines.
Does anyone here have experience with using this oil?
Is it an answer to the OP problem?
turbonycoil 600
Nyco, Spcialiste des lubrifiants militaires, lubrifiants synthtiques et esters (http://www.nyco.fr/content.asp?IDR=114273&IDR2=114286)

[Sunfish]

My understanding is that the ingredient that is the major suspect is tricreysl Phosphate.

I also believe the problem came to a head with the Bae146 which was powered by Four ALF502 engines.

John Warner selected the ALF502 because there was nothing around that could give the required performance with just Two engines.

Now the ALF502 started life as a Lycoming T55 Engine designed for the Chinook helicopter. They shoved a bloody great fan on its front end and pronounced it a turbofan. The trouble was that the front bearing arrangement for the new turbofan vibrated and also leaked oil - that went into the bleed air in quantity - or at least that is what I remember. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Icarus2001]

Now as the cabin is not completely sealed, a constant supply of outside fresh air is required to maintain pressurisation.

Not quite. Some of the air is from outside and some can be from inside the cabin. Hence RECIRC or in lay terms, recycled air. Just like on a bus, train, cinema etc. As mentioned above it is the OIL fumes that are the issue.

[codenamejames]

I also believe the problem came to a head with the Bae146 which was powered by Four ALF502 engines.

My understanding was that the contaminated air came from a dodgy seal on the gearbox? of the APU on the 146s. Bad/old/damaged seals allowed oil to pass through to and become heated (not burnt per se) so that the toxic component (tricresyl...) entered the bleed air.
There was a case on this a few years ago that was brought by a member of the cabin crew before the Dust Diseases Tribunal. If I remember rightly I think she was successful.
Scary stuff.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

From AvWeb, USA.....4/2/2013

Remember this topic..??

"Deceased Pilots Claimed Aerotoxic Syndrome

The death of two former British Airways pilots, both 43 years of age, who both believed they were poisoned by breathing contaminated air in the cockpit of jets they flew may now lead to legal action. Shortly before his Dec. 12 death, pilot Richard Westgate reportedly instructed his lawyers to sue BA over his alleged poisoning. Pilot Karen Lysakowska was grounded with poor health in 2005 and developed lung cancer, passing away a few days after Westgate. Lawyers for Westgate are now pushing for an inquest into the pilot's death to prove the existence of "aerotoxic syndrome."

In 2007 a collection of flight crew members founded the Aerotoxic Association based on their experience with a range of chronic health issues that they attribute to contaminated cabin air, which they say ended their careers. They believe organophosphates in engine oil can enter the cabin as fumes delivered by bleed air systems. They attribute symptoms such as chronic fatigue, mood swings, loss of confidence and persistent headache to aerotoxic syndrome. Government-commissioned studies in the UK concluded in 2011 that cabin air was safe. Critics claim that toxic events occur on the order of roughly one per 100 flights and so may be difficult to detect without full-time air quality sensors. A spokesman for British Airways on the 27th told reporters it is not aware of any legal claims related to the deaths of the two pilots. Autopsy results are pending.

[avconnection]

Sounds to me that these symptoms are very representative of shift work and dateline issues.

[BOAC]

Forgive a Pom for butting in here, but there is a movement trying to raise awareness of the issue in the UK on R&N as you will have seen, triggered by the sad deaths of two relatively young BA pilots from cancer.

The 'Aerotoxic' website links to a fairly convincing analysis conducted in Aus into air toxicity in aircraft.

Does anyone here have any links to the subsequent actions (if any) that occurred down under?

I should stress that I am not trying to start any scare stories, wear a tinfoil hat etc, but seek only to make sure that a proper investigation takes place (which appears to be lacking in the UK), that crews are aware of the issue and to establish why BALPA appears for some reason to have completely forgotten how serious they said this was in 2005.

[PookeyMaster]

There was a case in NSW that was finally resolved in 2010 regarding "aerotoxicity" that occured in 1992.

Whether it exists or not, you're looking at a long hard slog to first get it recognised as your health complaint and then second to actually get some form of compensation. Unless you're critically ill after a fume event, I wouldn't be looking for a diagnosis, you'd just be pouring money down the drain at the moment.

Turner v Eastwest Airlines Limited [2009] NSWDDT 10 (5 May 2009) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/nsw/NSWDDT/2009/10.html)

[flying-spike]

I was in the Army from the mid seventies to early eighties as an aircraft engineer/all trades with the last 3 years in a Porter/Nomad squadron. My job involved a lot of flying, maintaining the aircraft on exercises etc. It is pretty well known that early on the Nomad had a propensity to drain oil into the accessory gearbox then through the compressor and bleed air system into the cabin air. It was nothing to find 3-4 litres of oil on the tarmac, under the exhaust stacks. Because it had gotten into the bleed air it had to be purged out of the cabin air lines after start, filling the cockpit and cabin with burnt Mobil Jet II fumes. The whole of that period and for may years after I had to carry a nasal inhaler to clear my sinuses and suffered hours on end of headaches. I am sure that I am not the only one to experience this and I think there could be a stack more people that have suffered the health consequences of that initial design fault. Just putting that out there.