Singapore Flying College

[ga.grunt]

I'm applying for an instructor position there and want to know if anyone has any tips or knows anything about them. There is not a lot of relevant (or recent) info on pprune or on the WWW for that matter.

Cheers

[Dora-9]

PM sent, good luck!.

[ga.grunt]

Wondering if there are any YPJT based SFC instructors out there that can give me an idea of work conditions, hours, etc..

Thanks in advance.
P.S. PM if you like

[like_that]

Are they looking? What level instructor do they take?

[southernskyz]

I heard it's 35K annual salary for a grade 3.

It's not worth getting out of bed for that money,
unless you got a second job to pay for the rent.
That's if you're not originally from Perth.

China Southern pay an extra $10K better.

Both of these schools were constantly advertising,
prior to the world economic slow down.

[like_that]

Im GrIII senior and want to move to a bigger school... Am contemplating CHTR though.

Is China Southern worth the extra $10K?

[southernskyz]

Is China Southern worth the extra $10K?

A Grob isn't much of an aircraft, at there's C 172's at SIA.

I reckon the extra $10k is worth it, as they offer 6 weeks
annual leave and the pay scale increases upon reaching a
GDE 2 level.

There seems to be always movement there.

GDE 1 ME/IFR level is close to $60k per annum.

[training wheels]

There have been a few SFC instructors in the past who have gone on to fly A320's with Silk Air and 744F with Singapore Cargo. I don't know what their policy is on this, but seems like you have to stay there 5 years or so to be offered that.

There are also other airline owned flight schools in Indonesia who have their instructors fly for their airline as well as instruct. Working for a flight school that's owned by an airline does have its advantages.

[ReverseFlight]

Hear, hear, tw ! :ok:

[Dora-9]

But beware of promises that after X years of service you can go to Maroochydore and fly the Cessna Mustang...

[GAFA]

On the topic of Maroochy, anyone know what the instructors get paid their and how much jet time do you need to get a start?

[Johnny_56]

SFC at JT: Pay is pretty much as per the award, not much flying happening at the moment, generally have to be there 8 hours a day but is very flexible given how quiet it is, Sing cadets are probably the best students you could have - hard working, smart - pretty much do all the work for you. They used to offer a pathway to Sing airlines but not much movement on that front in recent years. Apparently new aircraft coming and have the contract at ECU so will probably get busier as the airline ramps up recruitment again. In general is a great place to work apart from the pay, but then again everywhere in GA is a good place to work apart from the pay

SFC at Maroochy: my understanding it all the instructors there are ex airline captains. Their pay is commensurate with their experience ie. good.

Hope that helps

[slowbus]

GA Grunt. PM sent.

[The Green Goblin]

Just because you have been there for 5 years, does not mean you will get a start in Silkair or Singapore Airlines. They have been spruiking this BS for years.

Of the guys who went to Singapore Airlines or Silkair in the expat days, most have left. There is a huge cultural issue, the Singaporeans do not really want you there (racism reversed), and if you call the Captain on his handling - he will probably write a report on you! Your job as an FO is to sit quietly and do what you're told.

The grass is always greener.

My advice, for those with stars in their eyes waiting for the magic 5 year mark, you could have made an airline in Australia in that time, and even if you didn't, you'd still be a regional Captain earning better than a grade 1 instructor at Singapore Flying College.

[TalkItUp]

I am also chasing some info on SFC - as to pay, conditions, ect. Also for any current instructors there as to whether they are hiring or not.

P.M if you like.

Cheers!

[Balthazar_777]

Green Groblin;

Of the guys who went to Singapore Airlines or Silkair in the expat days, most have left. There is a huge cultural issue, the Singaporeans do not really want you there (racism reversed), and if you call the Captain on his handling - he will probably write a report on you! Your job as an FO is to sit quietly and do what you're told.


What a load of ignorant, misinformed crap.

What about the other Australians who work at SIA, did they also have these imagined problems or was it only the SFC guys.

I have no idea what the conditions at SFC are like or if it is a good job. I also dont know if instructors will get a shot at SQ/MI. Sorry.

But i can tell you that if you do get to SQ/MI you dont have to worry about being bullied.

Cheers.

[Rate1]

Re: China Southern pay & conditions. All Changed now. Please Check again

[greybeard]

777

As there were 150+ Expat F/Os in SIA in the early to mid 90s on a mix of expat and local terms, with less than a hand full now still there, all on local terms, you can be assured that some of the interpersonal relations between the real locals and this group were at times quite difficult.

I witnessed some cases of quite positive "pulling of rank" to use a term and I was personally told "Questions from you greybeard indicate a lack of knowledge", which translated to the Trainer not knowing the answer.

There are some of the greatest professional Pilots in SIA, a pleasure to work with and for which I did for 10 years, but the other end of the scale is WAY in the other direction

All "Expats" in any country, I worked in three, two in Europe, are in general tolerated to a degree, disliked in many quarters and removed at the first oportunity as lets face it it is their ballpark, their ball and their changable rules.

Overseas work is professionally rewarding, personally difficult and NOT for the faint hearted, bigoted and non flexible Pilots or their families.
To very large companies, you are a telephone number located, work producing unit to do with as they wish and want and better believe they will.

Look, read and learn from the EK and HK sites, emotive at times but not far removed from the actual.

Eyes open, mind open, watch your 6.

:rolleyes:

[Dora-9]

Very well written indeed Greybeard! Oh so very true.

SIA's attitude to expats is encapsulated in their (panic) reaction to the GFC - close all the offshore bases (only expat pilots there) and dismiss only the expats flying with Singapore Freighters.

Expats flying at SIA are considered a necessary evil; to be got rid of at the first oppurtunity. Expats on local conditions - ugh - are somewhat better tolerated, but they're still expats.

And it would seem, given the unhappiness he's created at Maroochydore at least, the current SFC GM worships at the same altar....

[The Green Goblin]

Green Groblin;

Of the guys who went to Singapore Airlines or Silkair in the expat days, most have left. There is a huge cultural issue, the Singaporeans do not really want you there (racism reversed), and if you call the Captain on his handling - he will probably write a report on you! Your job as an FO is to sit quietly and do what you're told.


What a load of ignorant, misinformed crap.

What about the other Australians who work at SIA, did they also have these imagined problems or was it only the SFC guys.

I have no idea what the conditions at SFC are like or if it is a good job. I also dont know if instructors will get a shot at SQ/MI. Sorry.

But i can tell you that if you do get to SQ/MI you dont have to worry about being bullied.

Cheers.

Read Graybeards post. I was not implying it is just the SFC recruits, I am suggesting it is any expat.

Oh, and I have first hand experience with this situation having a family member from Qantas who was 'loaned' to them and when the contract ran out decided to stay as he was not far off retirement.

Eyes wide open folks.

[Numbers Up]

Anyone know if the latest add is for all 3 grades of Instructors??

[southernskyz]

(A) Previously advertised posts mentioned....
GDE 3 with 100 hours instructional time.
Expect about $35k.

(B) GDE 2 positions were mostly advertised for, on their flying school website, in the careers section.

(C) Apparently there's no advancement to a Second Officer position.

(D) It's evident that a person is training their own nationals to fly bigger
and better things, whilst getting paid peanuts with no rewards.

(E) It's a job.

[pilotchipmunk]

Those who are interested in pay, i can tell you it is the award, however every year you get a ex-gratia bonus, this would depend on how much the airline makes. The Job conditions are good, New aircraft coming are glass 172's and Glass G58's. As for the airline, Yes there is progression to Silk Air and SIA cargo, in general it is 5 years however due to the surplus of pilots this seems to be 6 years at the moment. While the pay is not the best, the diversity of the job is good and if you do the right thing by the company they will look after you and help you progress.

[Dora-9]

Pilotchipmunk (like that nome de plume!):

"ex gratia bonus" is caculated on the profit made by SFC, not SIA (it's run as a seperate profit centre), so just because the airline does well this doesn't automatically equate to a pay-out for SFC.

"..progression to Silk Air or SIA Cargo.." - believe me, an FO position on local terms with these carriers (again, it's not, and has no acces to the mailine SIA) are not exactly plum airline jobs.

[Johnny_56]

I reckon there are a few senior instructors there at the moment who wish there was progression after 6 years!!

Progression to the airline is a carrot that is dangled to keep everyone with stars in there eyes and stay. Guys have gone up occasionally in the past but by no means is there a concrete plan where you finish your 5 years today (or 6, whatever) and tomorrow your in Sing flying a 777.

[pilotchipmunk]

Johnny, this is true but the reason for this is not a carrot dangle it is current climate due to GFS, from what i hear the college is very quiet as too the airline, in the past guys have gone to Silk or SIA, some were offered SIA main fleet but opted to go cargo. Some guys have left as early as 4 years, the current wait is about 5 to 6 years but as things pick up so will progression to the airline. You could opt to leave the college for an FO job elsewhere for sure, but if you are willing to wait you will eventually go to the airline if thats what you really want. At the end of the day, the SFC is a subsidary, they dont have to send you to the airline if they dont want too, but as in the past they do.

[the152warrior]

G'day guys, thought I'd bump the old thread and ask about a few things at the college. What's the pay grade like for grade 3 and grade 2 instructors at the moment? Also, they have a couple of barons, what's the waiting period to move on from the single engine instructing to multi? PMs welcome.

Thanks.

[the152warrior]

nobody? :ugh:

[burma express]

Dora,

I know this response is a bit late, but Dora, what a load of horse crap! An FO for Silkair or Cargo is one of the most exciting airline jobs any aspiring airline pilot could wish for. For starters, how would you know? Firstly, if you currently fly with one of these airlines, you would know that the FO pay (especially SilkAir) even after conversion to AUD is better than what you would normally get as and FO in OZ (except 747/380 for QF). Secondly, the places you fly to, are far more exciting and challenging than your average Sydney to Darwin or Perth to Melbourne run. These are plum jobs, on good equipment. I wouldn't recommend placing all your bets on hanging out at SFC for more than 5 years to get these jobs, but if you have age on your side, the FO positions with one of these airlines are certainly a career boosters, that pay well, and worth the hard work at SFC.

[Dora-9]

Burma Express – have we touched a nerve here perhaps? An example of the “I’m here so it must be the best job in the world” syndrome?

I had previously attempted to point out that SFC progression was now to a subsidiary company NOT the mainline. If you’re happy at Silk Air then I’m truly and genuinely happy for you.

Personally I’m a bit sceptical about your claims of “...one of the most exciting jobs…” judging on what inmates of both Silk Air and Singapore Freighters have told/tell me – and these are people who have known better jobs (please note those last 6 words, Burma) - but then I’m only a retired old fart who has seen the better days of the industry anyway.

Now, returning to the original topic of this thread, it seems that the heavy hand of PH, the GM, is everywhere. Not only is he a pedantic micro-manager, but either he’s totally out of his depth or there’s something much more sinister afoot.

SFC at Jandakot are very short-staffed. Many have left while there have been few replacements, probably because of the unrewarding and unfulfilling instructor role there. One instructor was so unimpressed by the promise of “progression” to Silk Air or SQ Freighters that he went to Cathay! The result is only a trickle of cadets working through the system. Morale there seems poor.

Meanwhile staff morale at Maroochydore is even lower, if that were possible. The cadet trickle means that there’s precious little productivity pay, so they’re all effectively on half pay still. Despite much advertising for a new CP, they’re unable to find anyone suitable to apply who is prepared to work for the revised (steeply downwards) pay package. There’s a smell of something dead/dying there.

[burma express]

Dora, I've heard all the latest happenings as well. I wouldn't do the 5+++ years now to go move across as it would be too painfully slow especially in the current climate. I would rather go the normal way of direct entry FO or CAP. But to see to the world on a freighter or shoot an approach into Kathmandu can be pretty exciting as most of my inmates here have shared with me.

[By George]

I flew with two Aussie F/O's who made main-line 744 via SFC. They both resigned, both were the most unhappy pilots I've ever met. They absolutely hated the job and more importantly the pay (quite different to a Capt on ex-pat terms). Both were struggling on local conditions. Singapore is very expensive and if you have a couple of kids, almost impossible to save anything. As for the Freighter operation, the worst job I ever had, no life, pax all the way to the US in economy. ( yes, yes, they upgrade but only if seats are available). Try pax ex SIN to NRT and then keep going to the US without a layover, all in economy, min rest and crew to Europe.The very nature of freight is roster disruption. I once ended up away an extra week! When the freight operation split with the main fleet only one Captain crossed over. Main-line was good, I enjoyed it, great guys to work with, good layovers with little paxing. Plus the 'Queen' was Boeings best.

I love dreamers but do your homework and then dream.

[greybeard]

Having seen the "world of SIA" from the SFC Lear and the SIA main fleet I can attest that most of the few instructors from Jandakot that made it to SIA were not long stayers.
Being an "Expat" as such on local terms is not an easy task in your private life and sometimes a difficult one professionaly.
At one point in the late '90s there were a large number of Expat F/Os in SIA, very few lasted, many are senior C&T with others now, their gain and SIA's loss.
There was never any progression from the Lear to SIA in the system, however 4 of us were allowed to take that path in my 10 years in S'Pore.
You either like S'Pore or you don't, you accept SFC/SIA or you don't, you enjoy the tasks set or you leave.
I worked with some of the most professional Instructors I saw in my 46 years in Airlines, and regrettably one or two from the other end of the scale while there.
We visit S'Pore from time to time, the place is a " comfortable" place to us, as for working there on the reduced packages of now compared to then, probably not. It was and is an expensive place in some ways, but a $3 plate of noodles is still a prefered option for breakfast, and a Champers Sunday brunch at the Shangrala the other end of the scale.
All of us are really what we sign as regards to Emplyment Contracts, do it with all the info you can, don't believe all the shiny advertising and suck up the difficulties.

Sui generus

:ok: