First job overseas as an expat

[foodstamps]

Hi guys,

Just completed my CPL+MECIR very recently and about to finish off my ATPLs and have been reading these forums for a while.

I have heard and read "through the grapevine" that there are possibilities for low hour guys such as myself (say 250-300hrs) to work overseas on various turbo-props as first officers whether it be in Asia, Middle east or Africa even.

I am wondering what peoples opinions on this are?

(And if I could - please no wind-ups or rants from angry GA guys who think it's just another way for fresh CPLs to avoid flying bush, or "shiny jet syndrome", or who are hell bent on telling everyone GA is the only way to start etc. Just want legit information and opinions on an alternative start in the industry for someone who maybe is not interested in GA).

I have heard stories of lots of aussies going to Asia for example and getting first jobs in right hand seats on turbo props and even jets in some cases. Sure, they get paid the lower local wages, have to put up with whatever local conditions, better/worse safety, a/c, etc etc (the list can go on), however in some ways it's all an adventure and in some instances could even be comparable to working in a small community up north... plus its a start and a first job. Apparently they fly a lot and I have heard some guys taking anywhere from 1-3 years depending on a/c type to move onto the left hand seat and start logging command hours in foreign countries.

Now I've seen plenty of Jetstar Cadetship threads on here and I dont want to start another one. Everyone has their own opinions on that although most of pprune tends to oppose it. I am wondering - would this be the same in terms of a career move or is it different?

Obviously you'd be putting up with worse pay and conditions but you're young once and in some ways it's a good way to experience the world slightly differently through a different route than going north or becoming an instructor. So if that isn't an issue for a pilot - I am wondering where they stand in the longer run with hours / coming back to Oz in 5-6 years to work here again, log book being recognised, etc.

My confusion in regards to this topic is basically the fact that in some ways (pay & ts&cs aside) it is similar to the J* cadetship, and there are opinions on this - gaining command in the bush on a 206 is great experience VS going straight into a jet can be unsafe. However from what I understand in Europe and Asia a lot of first officers who start off in right hand seats are "cadets" or are straight out of flying schools with limited experience as many parts of the world dont have a large GA industry. I believe a lot of asian airlines even send students to do training in Australia and then go straight back home and are thrown on 737s etc.

If there's any guys who have done this - if you could send me some feedback even into my inbox privately it would be great.

Sorry for the long post,
Thanks in advance

[Night Beetle]

crawl walk then run.

You will still need a goodly amount of command time for your ATPL issue.

There is no easy route and those first few years will set you up for life.Hard to believe but it does.And well worth doing it hard "up north" PNG is up north have you thought about that?

[foodstamps]

You will still need a goodly amount of command time for your ATPL issue

Well like I said in my original post I've heard of low hour guys getting left hand seats after a few years... so that = command.

There is no easy route and those first few years will set you up for life.Hard to believe but it does.And well worth doing it hard "up north" PNG is up north have you thought about that?

I'm not looking for an easy route just whatever I would be more suited too and something I'd enjoy doing. Sorry I aint sure if there's a hidden tone in that post or not such as sarcasm or something so I dont know exactly what you meant. I dont know a whole lot about PNG but I am under the impression you need at least a half decent amount of experience to fly out there and not a fresh cpl? Also some of the operatores in Indonesia fly into Papua... so if that was a choice then there could be flying up there?

[PLovett]

foodstamps, you need to read the OS forums carefully and take heed of what they are saying before rushing into this.

What is being advertised OS still requires certain experience levels for direct entry. Most companies will not train expats onto turbine equipment, you have to have the necessary endorsement and some experience first. The entry level jobs on turbines are for nationals only.

There are some entry level jobs which don't require much experience. They are pretty much the same as entry level jobs in Australia, bush scenics being the most prevalent in Africa. This can lead on to bigger and better but the progression is no different from Australia.

[Piltdown Man]

Without contacts, it is as difficult to get a job overseas as it is at home however, you are often closer to driving a turboprop outside of Oz. As for the flying, when you get into a turboprop you´ll wonder what all the fuss was about and you may even think it is simpler to fly than a piston twin - because it is. And when you get in a jet you'll find them easier again.

As for flying overseas, it is not all it's cracked up to be. I worked with people who have experience all around the world. Of those who have worked in Africa, they have all enjoyed the experience and lived to tell the tale - but there are hundreds who can't. The stories of corruption, bungling government officials, aircraft which are unsafe on the ground let alone in the air, broken nav. aids are all true. To make it to the end of a contract without a major incident is unlikely - but you do learn from it. But will you be to apply the knowledge gained to RPT operations? Working in Asia and the sandpit will put you up against the locals so unless you are bringing something special you'll be at the back of the queue.

As for flying larger aircraft with minimal hours, my own company will be taking on maybe up to 100 newbies and they'll join as either Second Officers on long haul or First Officers on regional jets. On joining they'll have just over 200 hours and a bridge course/multi-crew course. They'll slot straight in to flying jets as well (because they are simple to fly). Line pilots will knock the majority of the arrogance some of the sods have, but in general they'll be up to speed in no time. These new pilots will be products of the airline´s training school.

So the story remains the same, get networking and don't believe what you hear about flying turbo-props and jets. They are all designed to be flown by average pilots under the worst of circumstances.

PM

[Fonz121]

gday foodstamps.

In my experience, I've found that the whole "it's easier to get a turboprop/jet gig in a third world country" mentality just doesn't hold true.

While there is always the exception ( I know a few guys who got turboprop gigs in Indo with only a couple of hundred hours), these are usually guys who know someone who can hook them up with a job. PNG would probably be one of your best bets.

A mate of mine went straight into a 737 in Indo with a bare commercial, MECIR and ATPL theory. But guess what? He only got in because he had a 737 rating. Generally speaking, to get any kind of jet job over there you need to have a type rating. So the guys with no actual commercial experience who have $$ and can pay for the type rating will get the job every time.

It does happen mate so give it a red hot go but I personally haven't been able to score anything over there with an ATPL and 800 Multi piston. But saying that, my current GA job pays better than a REX FO (not hard I know) so I'm also a bit pickier about pay than you might be.

Best of luck.

[Night Beetle]

How do you know what you are suited to if you have done nothing.........

Some form of flight school training and big dreams and surfing PPRUNE will not be enough to get you the job.
PNG is not Indonesia and there are no airlines that fly between the two borders.

You are not the only one to publish your dreams on here hoping to get a leg up.
There is work around up north and PNG.That is where I would start.
Close to home,converting licenses no problem and being mentored by your peers and advancing that way.

Those Qantas A 380 boys the other day all started at the bottom,that is what you have to do.If you are in your 20's no problem.

[foodstamps]

Thanks for the replies guys, all appreciated :ok:

How do you know what you are suited to if you have done nothing.........

Yeah good point. But I guess every newbie in the industry is in this position and I could ask how do guys who decide to go north really know its what they want to do? Or how do guys who decide to instruct really know it's what they want to do? I guess there's only one way to find out. I know guys who have gone back and forth between up north and instructing in the city. Time is ticking away and 2010 was unsuccessful for me up north and I'm just exploring other options at the moment. I'm sick of being unemployed and know a few guys who have given up and are looking at changing careers all together. Sad... but I'm not going to do that. I'm just exploring all my options however "wild" they may be.

[eocvictim]

Just have a glance through the latest post on the SA forum and most of the guys with 800TT+ are happy to have a 210. Sounds worse than Aus. PNG would be a great place to fly if you had no commitments. Some of the stories I've heard make me wish I started my career there.

[Dashtrash]

if you can cover youself financially for a while, it can't hurt to go and investigate... but,

don't take the companies word on transferring your Aust CPL. Check with whatever regulatory body there is too.

it can be hard when all you're thinking of is going forward, but consider getting out. It might be easy to get a job at XYZ airline but if you want to leave after a year, your bond may be more than you have earned + some.

Will an endorsement in trtudskndistan be recognised by CASA when you come back?

"contracts" are not what they are in Australia. They're more of a guideline to be changed at the whim of the company. You may find a new contract handed to you at somewhat reduced pay(it probably wasn't great to start with)...want to leave...sure, you still have to pay out the bond. We're not familiar with the term "pro rata".

There are great gogs overseas to be had (I'm in one) but if it sounds too good to be true..........just tread carefully

[Captain Nomad]

PNG would be a great place to fly if you had no commitments.

Very much doubt you will find any employment up there for non-nationals as a fresh CPL these days.

Another thing to consider is that it is not always easy to break back into your 'home' country employment. You have to time it right.

Not trying to discourage you but just adding some more 'reality' points to consider.

[an3_bolt]

Time is ticking away and 2010 was unsuccessful for me up north and I'm just exploring other options at the moment. I'm sick of being unemployed and know a few guys who have given up and are looking at changing careers all together.

Most of those who have continued in the industry have been where you are. Not necessarily a right of passage - but more about reality. In some ways it sorts out those who have the commitment to continue and persevere through adversity.

It took me 3 years to get my first proper job - (and that was just by chance dropping in to a place and ended up having a coffee and a lap around the block....right place right time). But I kept myself going by doing glider towing and some meat bombing - and working in a restaurant at night. Those were the days when you needed 1000hrs just to fly a C210. But it all comes in due course. As someone mentioned -crawl walk then run.

Put the shoes on, keep visiting people and making the "contacts" and saying hello. Called networking - a form of "marketing". Someone sooner or later will need someone and you have just visited that day or the day previous......

[foodstamps]

Thanks for the replies again. Very helpful and have given me somethign to think about.

Will an endorsement in trtudskndistan be recognised by CASA when you come back?


This has had me thinking and also - about hours - is there a chance all / some of the hours you fly overseas may not be recognised?

I haven't looked at the CASA website yet but I am presuming there will be information there? If not, is there another sure way to find out that these things will be recognised back home here in Oz? And whats the chance of CASA saying "yeah its all good, we'll recognise that" and then in 5 years they change their minds?

Another thing to consider is that it is not always easy to break back into your 'home' country employment. You have to time it right
What's the reason for this? And could you or someone else elaborate on this in more detail if possible?

Thanks!

[desert goat]

Endorsements and ratings are another matter, but hours are hours no matter what country you fly them in, so long as you follow Australian rules for logging them. (E.g you can't get away with logging dual or "shared time" as PIC like the yanks can in some cases).
Best to get someone official-sounding to put a "flight times correct to date" stamp/signature in your logbook before you come home though, just in case anyone accuses you of making the hours up.

[Captain Nomad]

What Desert Goat said about the hours, plus if you do go away make sure your hours in Australia are also stamped and signed by your CFI or CP 'correct to date' before leaving. Most other countries will want to see verification of your logbook. You can't get too much official stampage - especially if you log hours in more than one country!

About ratings/endorsements, PNG CAA for example, will only recognise aircraft ratings/endos of aircraft that are on the current register. When I went up there, there were some Australian aircraft endorsements that didn't appear on my PNG license for that reason. It probably doesn't matter if your overseas endorsement on a flyingquackduck doesn't get put on your Aussie license when you return unless you particularly want to fly a VH flyingquackduck back here too.

I don't know if I can really give a reason why it can be hard to break back into home employment. Some operators may not understand or appreciate the type of experience gained elsewhere. Also, while you are away there other people more local who get to work on their networking better while you are a bit more 'out of the loop.' Some people may even feel threatened by a more widely experienced person and would rather employ on a parochial basis. "Better the devil we know than the one we don't know" kind of approach.

I know of a few guys who have taken maybe a couple of years getting employment back in Australia after being overseas. Sometimes a 'step back' is necessary in order to go forward (ie. maybe a job on singles again even though you were flying multis overseas or a VFR job even though you were flying IFR when you left).

Sometimes it is just the timing of the industry boom/bust cycle. It has not always been as good for employment as the last few years. If it is tough for locals to get work it will be doubly so for someone trying to get work after being overseas.

While I was overseas I still did my MECIR renewal back in Australia when I was on holidays to keep my Aussie license current and the number of renewals ticking over. If at all possible, maintain your employment contacts while away and keep them updated. Then the really ideal but hard one - try and have something lined up to go to before leaving!

[MonsterC01]

I can tell you it is quite difficult to get back to OZ once you've been overseas for a while foodstamps.

I was overseas for 8 years and have only just managed to get back to Oz. And I was flying a wide body, internationally with a major airline.

The problem is 2 fold, firstly none of the medicals, recurrences, renewals etc. etc. count back in Oz. So when your filling out the online applications ( which any half assed carrier in Oz now make you do ) you can't put down yes when it asks do you have a current Oz class 1 medical, do you have a current MECIR, do you have an ASIC etc. So when the system goes to vet the applications, guess what! Yours goes straight into the bin!

So your only option is to spend the little leave time you get every year running around trying to keep all that stuff current and paying for it out of your back pocket. Or you let it all lapse and try and get it all current again when you decide to come back. Again a very time consuming and expensive undertaking (I know this is what I had to do) as there are additional expenses and time requirements with getting your class 1 medical back esp.

Secondly, once you decide to come back to Oz you have to accept that you’re going to have to go right to the bottom of the pile (again something I know about personally). This can be a bitter pill for a lot of guys wanting to come home to swallow. It doesn't matter how many command hours you have on Jets, 2 crew turbo-props, or kite's, it all counts for naught when you get into a company in Australia, you join the queue for bases, commands, fleet transfers etc. just like everybody else.

Don't like it! "Stiff s#$t” will be the reply. So your left with the choice of staying overseas and being unhappy ( and you will be after a while, everyone is, there's only 1 Australia! ) or coming home to a far less glamorous position, but loving the lifestyle it affords you and your family ( yes, at some point your going to end up with one of these as well ). Trust me happy wife, happy life. Unhappy wife, look out!

The choice is yours; just know that there are some obstacles to returning to fly in Australia. Another one can be that the guy's recruiting for companies in Oz probably did their fair share of hard yards in the bush, so are always going to look more favorably on an applicant who has done that as well (thankfully I didn't have to find out about this 1 personally as I did 5 years GA before I headed off OS).

So choose, but choose wisely! For what going overseas can give you in the short term, it can just as easily take away from you in the long term. I've been lucky, I've had opportunities to live and work overseas, gotten to fly aircraft I never would have gotten to fly back here in Australia, and seen parts of the world few Aussies get to experience. And I've managed to get myself back to Australia after ticking many of life’s boxes. But a lot of guys don't.

Overseas can be exciting and fun and an opportunity. But don't necessarily turn your back on other opportunities that are exciting and fun. I.e. GA bush flying. Probably the best 5 years of my life, and I know a lot of guys would tell you the same thing.

Oh well your choice. Either way, hang on and don't forget to enjoy the ride.

The Monster!

[foodstamps]

make sure your hours in Australia are also stamped and signed by your CFI or CP 'correct to date' before leaving

The hours I did in my flying school/s shouldnt be an issue I think even though it's been some time since I was at my original school where I did my CPL. MECIR was at a second place.

I have a few extra hours I flew for one operator for a few weeks interstate... gona be a bit of a hassel to get that stamped considering how far apart we are :{

While I was overseas I still did my MECIR renewal back in Australia when I was on holidays to keep my Aussie license current and the number of renewals ticking over.
The problem is 2 fold, firstly none of the medicals, recurrences, renewals etc. etc. count back in Oz.

I guess having it all re-done when I come back and try re-applying or on holidays back to OZ would be the smart thing... I'll keep that in mind.

[foodstamps]

Secondly, once you decide to come back to Oz you have to accept that you’re going to have to go right to the bottom of the pile (again something I know about personally). This can be a bitter pill for a lot of guys wanting to come home to swallow. It doesn't matter how many command hours you have on Jets, 2 crew turbo-props, or kite's, it all counts for naught when you get into a company in Australia, you join the queue for bases, commands, fleet transfers etc. just like everybody else.



Well I wouldn't be expecting to come back and be given a captains seat in an airline any time soon. My presumption was you'd just be up against all the other guys who have done their time in the bush or instructing who are awaiting their turn into an airline..? Though if you'd be put below them that would kinda suck as the other guy said...

Thanks guys...

and damn... you've given me a lot to think about.

So damn lost :)

cheers

[Cypher]

Hi foodstamps,

Yes, it can be done. I found a SAAB 340 gig overseas with about 350 hrs total in a Asian country, however due to world events at the time (Sept 11th) I wasn't able to start in the end. I wasn't a local national either. (Kiwi)
I was lucky I found the airline on the internet, emailed them on a longshot, got a reply and started talking on the phone. After doing some more research on them and figuring that they were legit, I went over to the airline, and spent a bit of time on the jumpseat getting to know what I was getting myself into and I managed to obtain a signed and sealed contract with the company.

So yes it does happen, however do your research carefully. Where are you going to live? How and what currency are you going to get paid in? Is that currency able to be exchanged?

What are the captains like? And the training? Going from piston single crew, single engine to multi crew multi turbine is a big step. It's not impossible, it's just a big step and alot of work. And having good captains and a training system will just make it easier.
Have an exit plan in mind too in case the brown stuff hits the swirly thing.

This isn't really about taking an easier route, just a different one. But I'll say one thing, it doesn't hurt to try. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

If I'd listened to the all the naysayers and such, I would have never have found those opportunities.... and would probably still be flying around in a clap out leaky C172 in crapville, trying to convince myself that this was fun....

[Tmbstory]

foodstamps:

Much of my flying life was spent as an expatriate and enjoyed the life, however I did not go with very few hours looking for experience. My hours when I departed Australia were in the five figures. I saw a fair portion of the world whilst an expatriate which I may have not seen if I spent all my flying life in Australia

If you do get a chance to become an expatriate then I would take it. Listen and learn and you will be a better pilot and enjoy the flying.

Tmb

[Night Beetle]

Just something else to consider.

What sounded good 20 years ago good pay,conditions exotic places all the things that made me interested have nearly all gone.
With the continued under mining of the different T's and C's in an effort to apease the share holders and bolster the top management pays. (wether they preform or not)
I can see the number of seats up the front end being reduced.This will be done thru technology(glass as opposed to anologue,flight engineer gone,all done by the black box).It is already going thru the next phase with cruz FO's.How long before we only have one up the front and all monitoring is done from the ground,being done already to.

This could well be expanded with more examples of cost reductions.


If young guys and girls ask me what I think about joining the industry I do my best to change their minds.I advise further education or a trade in another field.Take the rose coloured glasses off and look out side the square.There is considerable anger out there about T'sand C's.

The pilot unions for want of a better word are toothless and slow to react.
Other industries (IT for one) have surpassed pilots in the food chain we have not kept pace.

I better go do some work.