Multi role EC145

[jxc]

Be gentle fixed wing ppl here

What would be the possibility of having a EC145 kitted out for multi role Police & EMS plus a Winch ? Forget about funding as in Which authority pays

Also roughly what is the going rate for a pilot on a EC145 say on 2 week rotation living abroad

Or would you suggest another aircraft ?


Cheers

[Helinut]

Your apparently simple question is affected by which set of aviation rules your "operation" has to operate in.

In helicopters weight/mass is critical. A multi-role helicopter has to carry equipment for all roles which reduces the available mass for other things. If a set of aviation rules is then imposed which requires OEI hover capability (for example) it significantly reduces the ability of the aircraft to operate. The other important mass is the max fuel that can be carried.

Why did you pick an EC145? Although the EC145 is presented as a new generation aircraft in certification terms it is a BK117. The BK117 is an older aircraft and does not perform as well as other modern helicopters OEI or indeed when heavy.

You probably need to reveal a bit more of your "operation" to enable us to help you.

[jxc]

I only chose the Ec145 as I see that is what most of the air ambulances in the uk operate ( i may be wrong )

It will need to be operated according to Eu-ops based in the Balkans maybe I should just look at Ems with Winch due to police ops probably take alot of weight

[OvertHawk]

most of the air ambulances in UK are EC 135 not 145 (not aware of ANY 145's in ambulance role in UK although i stand to be corrected if i'm wrong).

[Rigga]

D&C Police (EC145) also does Air Ambulance
Met Police (EC145) also does all you ask - including Winch, USL, etc
Guarda Civile (EC145) does all the Mountain Ops you could wish for


Weight & balance issues for all - I believe.

[bolkow]

apart from the met police in London who operate three ec145's I dont anyone else does in the UK, the rest are EC135's, bo105's and a few dauphines and Md's

[sss]

The PSNI have acquired one as well as D&C.

[jxc]

Sorry I stand corrected 135

[aegir]

the EC135 is the most used helicopter for EMS operations anche you can quikly change the configuration to perform utility or police operations.

as helinut told you, to help it's important to know what kind of operations you have to perform, the characteristics of the place where the operations will be done, how many passengers you need to have on bord, what kind of range you need and so on...

EC135 and EC145 are good multimission helicopters.

[otter712]

New Force 6 Tactical / SAR PFD Swiftwater Rescue Testing with Travis County STAR Flight Swiftwater Rescue News (http://swiftwaterrescuenews.wordpress.com/2010/03/17/new-force-6-tactical-sar-pfd-swiftwater-rescue-testing-with-travis-county-star-flight/)

[Helinut]

OK jxc, lets take an EC135 then and the UK experience. You haven't provided the extra info, but I guess you are interested in the UK. This is qualitative, because I do not have the books to hand. It may illustrate the issues though.

When they first saw service in the UK as police machines, EC135s were the "classic" version. No autopilot (just stab) and no glass cockpit. Once you added the police role equipment and the 3 crew and their carry on equipment, you still had decent payload available for a good fuel load. Depending upon the operational area, you could usually do a series of tasks and not worry about fuel reserves too much. One aircraft (N Wales) also operated dual role as a HEMS. I am not 100% sure, but I believe that the front police observer was replaced by a camera trained paramedic. Available payload for fuel was reduced but still doable.

Over the years of operation the MAUM was increased, largely by various engine upgrades. These mainly increased the ability of a single engine to allow safe operation. The role equipment got bigger and better (and heavier) too. The last time I heard EC and the engine manufacturers said there was no more to be squeezed out of the airframe.

Then the rules changed (in the UK). Police heles operating at night had to have full autopilots (effectively become fully IFR rated). Payload further reduced.

There are currently no EC135s operating dual role police/HEMS in the UK, I believe. There are 2 MD902s that do. With all the planned changes to pure UK police ops, the existing EC135s will be operating over larger and flexible areas and are going to have a lot more fuel problems even single role. I suspect it has not been taken into account in the current plans yet, but existing fuel sources at night will seriously limit possibilities. If you further reduce the fuel that can be carried by adding roles, you just make that problem worse.

If you now want to add winch capability, there is another lump of mass to be added. At the same time, in the UK where police/HEMS operate under commercial rules a winching op would need to be operated at a mass, such that the A/C could maintain a single engine out of ground effect hover, in the event of an engine failure. That is a substantial penalty and would render the whole thing unworkable.

It isn't practical to change role equipment from say police to HEMS. Having flown a bit for combined units you often do both jobs at the same incident. Also one job comes in on the way back from another. If you added winching to this you spend all your time on the ground role changing.

Options:

Ignore the rules and effectively go to state aircraft and non-commercial rules. Some countries do that and it reduces some problems, until an accident exposes the backside of some decision maker. I don't know the detail, but I saw on here a rumour that the Met had recently got such an exemption for their EC145 winch ops. Again, I don't know but I presume this is justified on grounds of CT risk. Whether they will fly around all the time with their winches attached I do not know - I doubt it. They have a very small geographical area, so maybe they could get back for the winch when the CT wheel falls off - they also have 3 aircraft.

Buy bigger and more expensive aircraft. Or buy more than one aircraft and don't go multi-role. Remember that in the UK police, ambulance and SAR are covered by 3 or 4 different government departments and budgets and individual charities for each HEMS.

Finally, winching requires lots of practice and currency. If you want lots of units (rather than just a few specialists) to become and maintain winch currency (when they do not do it operationally every day) you need to very substantially extend the flying training budget. They also become "crew proper" rather than CAA approved passengers which has several important implications.