How to deal with Somali Pirates

[EESDL]

It would seem that our Russian friends have the right idea - blew ship up with all tie-wrapped on board - after verifying weapons find etc of course
Colleague showed me video link this morning and trying to validate - must be on utube by now but my pc at work will not allow access (wonder why?).

Captain enforcing piracy law I see

[cazatou]

Do they carry out "Contract Work"?

[Double Zero]

As madness prevails here and there will apparently be spare Harriers, how about a few container ships fitted out 'Atlantic Conveyor' style with a GR9 wittily loaded with rockets to welcome incoming skiffs ?

[500N]

EESDL

Have also seen the video - though some time ago.
I'll try to find it.

A very effective way of sending a message and making
sure they don't come back to do it again.


Edit
It's on you tube and is called "Russian Navy vs Somali Pirates"
(Split link below)
YouTube - Russian Navy vs Somali Pirates (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTrkcQJ9i2I)

[Uncle Ginsters]

Perhaps we're not that far away:

From the Telegraph online today (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/piracy/8148600/Paul-and-Rachel-Chandler-British-mercenaries-hired-to-take-on-the-Somali-pirates.html)

[Scuttled]

I viewed the video, but saw no continuity to prove the pirates were on board when the vessel was destroyed.

Nice work though, if we dealt with them the same way it would send a message.... to say the least.

[flap15]

Give them a fair trial and then hang them from the yard arm...what no yard arms left. Oh defence cuts.

[Dengue_Dude]

Can't imagine why, but it's reduced recidivism quite dramatically . . .

[AdanaKebab]

Before anyone says, 'what the hell has this got to do with the Air Force?'. May I point out that Op Atalanta has several members of light blue cloth at the OHQ. We may not have Nimrod but at least we can man the HQ.
Cyrano is happily replacing the MPA's anyway :eek:

Go on bite ...

[alisoncc]

Dead simple solution. Get all the countries that object to their ships being hijacked to chip in some funds, and we could resume the Aden Protectorate, reopen bases at Khormaksar, Sallalah, Masirah and Sharjah, giving our guys somewhere nice to go for R & R from UK winters. :p

I don't think the Twin Pins from my era would suffice, or Bubblies for that matter, so what airies should we base at K'sar to sort out the pirates? Must admit the thought of a squadron of Hunters sounds enticing. Which PPruners would be happy to volunteer? I'd go if the pay was sufficient. :ok:

[parabellum]

I fancy a couple of squadrons of cannon equipped RAF Mustangs based at Khormaksar,:E

(Quite a few Mustangs still flying world wide!).

[500N]

Must have some SBS type operators as well :O - to capture the ships
before setting them adrift for RAF Gunnery practice.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

reopen bases at Khormaksar, Sallalah, Masirah and Sharjah, giving our guys somewhere nice to go for R & R from UK winters.

Oh how I laughed when I read the above.

You effing jest of course !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[alisoncc]

You effing jest of course !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not at all. :D :ok:

Lets see if we can't put a detachment together from PPruners. We need everything from a Wng Co down to AC Plonks. Aircrew for the aircraft we choose and ground crew to keep them operational, plus ancillaries. I was a Cpl Tech Air Radio Fitter way back then. Happy to look after the avionics - still got a tool box and soldering iron.

[Whenurhappy]

Perhaps I am being the Fun Detector here - but are we sugesting extra-judicial killing of pirates? This country, and indeed most in the Western World work on the proncipal of rule of law and independence of the judiciary. Let's not confuse a lack of action (cf UNCLOS III, 1982) with the need for a violent resolution.

These pirates are causing a considerable nuisance, I agree. However barbaric acts of violence - as hinted in the Russian recording - kis not, repeat, not the solution.

[500N]

Whenurhappy
The Russians may have taken it a bit far, but I am sure the message was very well received by the others.

You are allowed to defend yourselves and I am sure the Pirates would accommodate an attack looking at what they do, it can't be helped if the firepower being returned is 10 times was they expected.

[Biggus]

Given the decision mentioned in this link:

Kenyan court outlaws piracy trials (http://www.mareeg.com/fidsan.php?sid=17899&tirsan=3)

It would appear that there is currently no legal system in place that will (practically not theoretically) allow for Somali pirates captured on the high seas to be prosecuted....

Does that mean they simply have to be turned loose, after no doubt being told that they are "very naughty boys" (and girls, to stay PC), if they are actually caught in the first place?

[500N]

I thought you were allowed to take the Pirates back to your country for trial,
as some have including the US.

[Biggus]

Looks like you could be right, the Germans too:

Germany set for first pirate trial in 400 years | Radio Netherlands Worldwide (http://www.rnw.nl/english/bulletin/germany-set-first-pirate-trial-400-years)

Landmark Somali 'pirate' trial in US to last three weeks | Radio Netherlands Worldwide (http://www.rnw.nl/africa/bulletin/landmark-somali-pirate-trial-us-last-three-weeks)

[Canadian WokkaDoctor]

I don't think that this is a good idea, well not in the UK, or Canada for that matter. If you bring them back they would get legal aid to fight the charge. Some are likely to evade justice through fancy lawyers and then end up claiming asylum, with no way of being deported to a war-torn country where their lives would be in danger (bless them)! The next thing you know, the whole extended family will be living on an estate in Bristol (UK)...............hang on, that has already happened!

Can’t we put an exclusion zone off the coast of Somalia and sink anything that is approaching it? It worked in 82. :)

Canadian

[Whenurhappy]

The judicial solution might be for an International Court to be established (akin to the ICC and ICTY) where persons alleged to have committeed acts of piracy on the high seas can face trial. Because the court room and prisons are the only 'international territory' for the purposes of the trial and subsequent sentencing, this removes the concerns on extradition, family support etc. Daily Mail readers will be happy.

The RN, is I believe, limited in handling what is, in essence, a civil criminal matter. Theor cells are not compliant, for example.

On a related matter, on 20 November the NATO-Russia Council made the following statement:

'As piracy and armed robbery at sea continue to pose a significant and growing threat to maritime security, the NATO-Russia Council member states will expand exisiting tactical level cooperation, including through joint training and exercises'.

So perhaps, we might see a 'Russian' solution on the high seas as part of a NATO approach...

[Blacksheep]

British and Dutch East Indiamen carried a frigate's fit of guns and a complement of Marines and were seldom the victim of pirate attacks. Not succesful ones anyhow.

Perhaps equipping merchant vessels with an automatic defence weapon, derived from something like Goalkeeper for instance, would be a deterrent? The merchant ship would use that deafening loud speaker system that many carry, to warn off an approaching pirate boat and if it then approached within a preset distance, the gun would fire automatically.

[Madbob]

Here's your answer....

Defensively Equipped Merchant Ship (DEMS) was an Admiralty (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Admiralty) Trade Division program established in June, 1939, to arm 5,500 British merchant ships (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Merchant_ship) with an adequate defence against enemy submarines and aircraft. The acronym (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Acronym) DEMS was used to describe the ships carrying the guns, the guns aboard the ships, the military personnel manning the guns, and the shore establishment (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Stone_frigate) supporting the system.[1] (http://www.pprune.org/#cite_note-0)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/BL_4_inch_Mk_VII_gun_DEM_1943_LAC_3394508.jpg/220px-BL_4_inch_Mk_VII_gun_DEM_1943_LAC_3394508.jpg (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/File:BL_4_inch_Mk_VII_gun_DEM_1943_LAC_3394508.jpg) http://bits.wikimedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/File:BL_4_inch_Mk_VII_gun_DEM_1943_LAC_3394508.jpg)
BL 4 inch Mk VII (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/BL_4_inch_naval_gun_Mk_VII) low-angle gun on a DEMS in 1943, an obsolete WWI gun typical of WWII DEMS armament


During the Second World War, the objective was to equip each ship with a low-angle gun mounted aft as defence against surfaced submarines (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Submarine) and a high-angle gun and rifle-calibre machine guns (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Machine_gun) for defence against air attack.[9] (http://www.pprune.org/#cite_note-Hague_2000_p.101-8) 3,400 ships had been armed by the end of 1940;[3] (http://www.pprune.org/#cite_note-van_der_Vat_1988_p.124-2) and all ships were armed by 1943.[10] (http://www.pprune.org/#cite_note-9)
The low-angle guns were typically in the 3-inch to 6-inch range (75–150 mm) depending on the size of the ship. Rifle (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Rifle)-caliber machine guns were augmented or replaced by 20 mm Oerlikon (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Oerlikon_20_mm_cannon) as they became available. The High-Angle QF 12pdr Mk V mount (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/QF_12_pounder_12_cwt_naval_gun) was the most common anti-aircraft gun, and later ships sometimes received 40 mm Bofors guns (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Bofors_40_mm_gun).[9] (http://www.pprune.org/#cite_note-Hague_2000_p.101-8)


Note that 3,400 merchant ships were provided with armament by the end of 1940........more than 48 ships per week! The difference then though was that we had political leaders who took the threat seriously and didn't duck responsibility. It can't be rocket science to come up with a similar scheme though I suspect that the UN/NATO/WMO or whoever will shy away from issuing appropriate rules of engagement!:ugh::ugh:

[Rengineer]

Disclaimer: I'm a civilian.

The pirates that boarded the Taipan are currently facing a jury in Hamburg. Typically for a fair, Western process, it took ten months from capture to get here - and on the first day of trial, the defense demanded that one of the ten be released because he was only 13, so not actionable, when the state prosecutor's office estimates the guy's age at 19 :ugh:. Of course, in our modern world, the identity and age of a defendant may stop a sentence being pronounced, even if it's clear the pirate was caught red-handed. Afterwards, there'll be the question of collective and individual guilt, and all that. :mad:

So in the end, if we really want to defend our way of doing things, and our degree of fairness in court, we're probably bound to live with unsatisfactory outcomes from a determent point of view. Or change the way we do things in justice...

-- humour alert --
Maybe best put RIAA on them like against music pirates. Seeing as Jammie Thomas was sentenced to 80.000$ per song, each worth roughly 1$ on iTunes, versus an estimated value of 20M€ for a large and almost new container vessel like the Taipan, they should be fined about 160bn euros combined - say 16bn€ each of them, and their home towns or clans should be held accountable. Or they might work it off in jail on a 8€/h rate - for a couple billion hours?

[ORAC]

Perhaps I am being the Fun Detector here - but are we sugesting extra-judicial killing of pirates? Letter of Marque

Letter of marque - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_marque)

[Whenurhappy]

Difference is, I suppose, is that we are not in a state of war...piracy is a criminal act!

BTW - how effective were DEMS vessels and did they make a significant contribution?? I ask this because my wife's uncle, 2nd Mate on a tanker, was responsible for the defensive armaments. He was manning the aft conning position (where fire control was based) when the whole stern was removed in a torpedo attack. His brother was also lost on 100 Sqn, after the fall of Singapore.

[Agaricus bisporus]

The practical way to stop pirates is threefold, and simple.

1) prevent, on draconian legal penalty, the payment of any ransom for person or property.

2)Instigate a continuous policy of special forces and guided weapons raids on their bases, premises and assets.

3)apply a vigorous application of rule 303 when they are caught at sea.

It would soon come to an end.

A considerable proportion of Somalis are by nature violent and ruthless chancers with little or no concept of law, government or restraint who regard any softness as not only an invitation but also an indication of deserving to be rolled over for weakness. The ONLY rule they understand is the gun, and they respect that, and that only. The pirates will be extatic and bemused that we keep sending them merchant ships unarmed, and utterly disbelieving that any nation of "men" would send warships that do nothing to stop them, they must think of us as beyond contempt; spoiled, fat, rich brats just asking to be robbed and coming back for more. We ignore that simple fact at our soft, pathetic western bleeding-heart peril. Anything less than main force is pussyfooting around the problem and will be regarded by the Somalis with nothing but contempt.

We had the chance to sort the place out in 1993. We went in mob-handed and early indications, on the rare occasions where firness was employed showed we were on track. We blew it totally by pathetic politically correct fluffiness earning the Somalis undying contempt and condemning them to decades of lawless anarchy - just look at the state of the country today. By not sorting this piracy problem out firmly we are merely promoting the spread of somali anarchy across the oceans too.

While we continue to pay them tens of Millions this will only increase. Why are we surprised?

Me and my tribe against my country.
Me and my family against my tribe.
Me and my brother against my family.
Me against my brother.

The Somali code of allegiance.

Imagine what they think of us.

[Load Toad]

I don't think that code of allegiance is specific to Somali's & I've seen it attributed to Bedouin, various Middle East countries and just about every Football Club in the UK, Italy, Germany and the Netherlands.

[Agaricus bisporus]

It may well not be specific, did anyone suggest it was?

None of the societies you listed make that sort of active gun-toting anarchy the daily pursuit of their lives but sorry, I don't follow oikball so can't comment on that.

;)

[Blacksheep]

...piracy is a criminal act!...which can be resisted using the minimum force necessary.

So what do you think might be the minimum force necessary to repel a group of criminals wielding RPGs and machine guns?

[Fitter2]

So what do you think might be the minimum force necessary to repel a group of criminals wielding RPGs and machine guns?

I would suggest tactical nukes are probably excessive force.

Do you recall the Blues Brothers? "Excessive force is authorised.........."

[Lonewolf_50]

If I may slightly misquote Admiral Farragut ...

"The best defense against the enemy's guns is well directed fire from our own guns."

Back to armed merchantmen, and the will to use their firepower. That second part seems a problem.

(Farragut's maxim is generally held to be:

"The best protection against the enemy's fire is well directed fire from your own guns.")

[cazatou]

We could always look at lessons learnt from WW1 and re-introduce "Q Ships" with rapid fire close support weapons and RM Boarding Parties.

[Torque Tonight]

The take-home message is don't f--k with Russian vessels, assets, or people, whereas the Brits look like a bunch of pussies who are fair game. I understand that a year or so ago the RN desisted from apprehending pirates fearing that if they did they could legally claim asylum in the UK. Please, please tell me I am wrong, but since the Afghan airline hijackers of a decade ago are all now living on benefits in the UK with bigger houses and more disposable income than me, I would not be surprised if I am right.

As piracy on the high seas is universally frowned upon I can't see that self-defence or mutual support should be too big a problem and is not really in the same category as summary justice.

I like the idea of reopening Aden and filling it with Hunters! I know my old man would be back in like a shot, and I'd probably join him.

[VinRouge]

Just sink their shanty boats with them in it. If they canmake the shore without getting nibbled by sharks, they get to live.

The only way to deter these people is a f*cking large stick. That includes the 13 year old scrotes that get caught with them.

Old enough to hld an AK? Old enough to drown.

[Dengue_Dude]

The only way to deter these people is a f*cking large stick. That includes the 13 year old scrotes that get caught with them.

Old enough to hld an AK? Old enough to drown.

Works for me - shame we don't see this sort of sanction more often.

[VinRouge]

I believe the government phrase is "executed with extreme prejudice" and was last used in the vietnam war...

[Airborne Aircrew]

I believe another euphemism is "sanctioned"...

The UN is very keen on sanctions I hear... though I'm sure, in this case, they would suddenly be less keen... :rolleyes:

[CathayBrat]

I know its been put here before (somewhere), but any PPRuNers fancy a cruise, as the weather here seems to be taking a turn for the worse. Sunny blue skys, clear waters, good "deck sports" etc. Whats not to like.:E
Somali Cruises - Cruise along Africa's east coast! (http://www.somalicruises.com/)

[EESDL]

Wife's grandfather was a dutch merchant navy captain during and post-WW2, you could imagine the many nights spent listening to seemingly incredulous tales upon the sea.......he was quite clear in his treatment of pirates though and had his actions backed by the law book of the high seas - how many Israeli airliners were hijacked after their destruction of the first one?

"Oooh, I feel like some easy money, not going to risk hijacking an Israeli airliner as there's not much return - better I opt for those soft Western airlines........better still, if it all goes tits-up I could settle in the West Country in a nice 4-bed detached......"

Just think, if a 'hard-line' against Somali pirates had been applied from start then the Chandlers journey would probably not have been interupted in such the way as it was?

[cargosales]

I remember reading somewhere that around the time of Terry Waite and others being kidnapped in Beirut in the mid-late 80s, the local scallies decided it might be a good idea to take a couple of Russians hostage too :uhoh:

Apparantly the Kremlin wasn't too keen on the idea though and a couple of the locals rapidly became temporary guests of Uncle Boris. Who kindly returned them a few days later, albeit minus a few body parts, but full of useful advice about the wisdom of kidnapping Soviet citizens :=

The story went that the kidnapped Russians were released immediately along with a grovelling apology and the promise not to do anything quite so silly in future.

And I think that's the way to deal with these pirates - communicate with them in a way they understand. Soft soap and pussy footing round the issue simply isn't working :ugh:

[RetiredSHRigger]

We could always Inter them for 5 years or so without trial , water board them and dress them in orange suits then give them all £1,000,000 each in compensation and Asylum to boot, then they would have no need to commit piracy and we can support them and their families ad infinitum. Great Idea:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Or we could just waste them Russian style! Gets my vote:ok:

[minigundiplomat]

2 second hand Hueys, one with miniguns, one with a couple of ex-poole snipers.

Job done....next!

[Twon]

Besides, if we killed all the crew and sunk the vessels, who would ever know? (Apart from the pirate strongholds in Somalia of course (when their ships keep going missing) and they can hardly bleat to the Media can they?)

[Scuttled]

Twon, regrettably, hits the nail on the head.

If all of these people disappeared would anybody in the world honestly care. Keep it quiet to avoid offending liberal sensibilities, and then neutralize them all (or as many as can be located) - wherever they may be. There is no negative to this solution, the world is a better place without them. They shall never work nor contribute to improving any part of the world or society, including their own awful part of it. Just kill them and eradicate the problem.

Really, who cares......?

Well the sensationalist press obviously. If the media were not embedded on every ship somewhere hot and with every other fighting unit, I'm pretty sure we would not be in the situation we are now. A message or two would've been sent years ago and this farcical escalation would have been stopped in it's tracks.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Scuttled:

So... Are you saying "Shoot all the journos"? Because I'm with you if you are... A bit of the old "What the eye don't see... etc"... would work just fine in that part of the world...:ok:

[Scuttled]

Oh dear. I seem to have been hoisted by own petard. Can't really sanction slotting all the journos Airborne Aircrew, like my daily paper too much.

Reminded of the words of Pastor Niemoller, reference the unpleasantness of 1930s and 40s Germany.

"They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up"

Sod it. My apologies AA, I seem to have talked myself out of it. First the pirates, then the journos....... Just a bit scared that I may be next.;)


and by that time no one was left to speak up.

[Scuttled]

Having said all that, if you promise it is just the worthless pirates for now, then I'm game on. :ok:

[kaikohe76]

I'm a little suprised that the Somarli pirates don't suddenly decide they are all bona fide United Kingdom citizens & thus David Cameron & his cronies will give them vast quantities of money provided by the UK taxpayer.

[500N]

Since we were talking about this, this was published today in the newspaper.

US jury finds Somalis guilty of piracy

November 25, 2010 - 1:49PM

Five Somalis have been found guilty of piracy for attacking a US vessel in the Indian Ocean, the first US convictions on such charges in nearly two centuries, the Department of Justice said.
A jury in the port city of Norfolk, Virginia, found the men guilty on Wednesday of the April attack on the navy frigate USS Nicholas, which they mistook for a merchant vessel, from a small skiff.
The ruling marks "what is believed to be the first piracy trial conviction in the United States since 1820," the US Department of Justice said in a statement.
Advertisement: Story continues below
According to trial testimony, the men sailed from Somalia searching for a merchant ship to raid. "They used a larger ship full of supplies, along with two smaller vessels loaded with assault weapons and a rocket propelled grenade (RPG) that served as attack boats," the statement read.
On April 1, three of the suspects boarded one of the smaller vessels "and set out to pirate what they believed to be a merchant ship".
The men opened fire on a ship that turned out to be the Norfolk-based USS Nicholas.
The men were caught when the Nicholas returned fire and chased down their small boat and the mother ship.
The defendants claimed that they were fishermen who had been kidnapped and forced into piracy at gunpoint, and sought to be rescued when they saw the vessel they were facing.
"Does anyone really believe that three guys in an 18-foot (5.5 metre) boat with two AK-47s and an RPG were going to take over a US warship?" asked Jon Babineau, one of the defence lawyers.
Babineau said after the jury ruling that he was "disappointed in a system of justice that is supposed to be based on fairness".
The Somalis were convicted on charges of piracy, attack to plunder a vessel, act of violence against persons on a vessel, assault with a dangerous weapon, assault with a dangerous weapon on federal officers, conspiracy to use firearms during a violent crime, and firearm counts including the use of an RPG.
The convictions on piracy and use of a destructive device (the RPG) both carry a mandatory penalty of life in prison. The other convictions carry additional sentences of between 10 and 25 years prison.
The men will be sentenced on March 14, the Justice Department said.
Warships now patrol the Indian Ocean after a series of spectacular hijackings in the Gulf of Aden propelled Somali piracy to the forefront of international attention in late 2008 and early 2009.
Piracy is a growing problem off the coast of lawless Somalia, with both the number of attacks and the ransoms demanded spiking over the past two years, according to the London-based International Maritime Bureau.
Twenty-three vessels and around 500 crew members are currently held by Somali pirates, the bureau said.

[Q-RTF-X]

And I think that's the way to deal with these pirates - communicate with them in a way they understand. Soft soap and pussy footing round the issue simply isn't working

Shot while resisting arrest !

Caught in crossfire !

:D :E

[Load Toad]

Re. Russian Way of Dealing With Bandits / Pirates / Terrorists.



If its such a great way to deal with naughty people do any of you lot that seem to support their actions fancy going to live in Russia and maybe interacting with Russian law / order and the criminal justice system on a daily basis?

[swp53]

Load Turd,
We are not talking about naughty people we are talking about fecking armed pirates. :ugh:

[500N]

Load Toad

Are you after a bit of thread drift ? All countries have good and bad points
and yes, Russia isn't paradise but we are not in Russia or talking about "living" in country but people who attack others monetary gain in international waters and don't mind how they do it or who they kill in the process.

Along a similar path, here in Aus we have heaps of boat people trying to come in. When the previous PM played hard ball, the numbers dropped. Now we have gone back to softly softly approach, they think we are an easy push over again so numbers increase.

A message needs to be sent in terms like the Russian's and the US did
as it is the only thing they seem to understand - Rule 7.62.

[Fareastdriver]

Russian law / order and the criminal justice system on a daily basis?

For Russian read Chinese. Load Toad, living in Hong Kong, will know full well that he is a damned site safer in Shenzhen than he is in Hong Kong. He will also know about the Hong Kong/Macau ferry that was highjacked a few years ago. The Chinese police caught up with them and they were executed. There has not been a problem on any ferry route since.

[Load Toad]

Mmm - not really - I feel perfectly safe in HK and have never had any trouble. Petty crime in S.China is something you have to be vigilant for though. Safer in SZ than HK? Ridiculous.
I don't subscribe to offing people willy nilly - you put a bullet in the wrong person after a 15 minute trial and no appeal... I dunno - I think that's wrong. you know like putting a guy whose child suffered from melamine poisoned milk in gaol because he campaigned for full investigations and such like.

And none of you have said 'Yes' to living in Russia. I'm not surprised.

[Load Toad]

I'm not saying that pirates have to be treated harshly - but some of you do love the 'blow 'em to bits and ask questions afterwards' approach. Which I find strange - I don't know if you serve in the forces - I don't - but my friends that do - strangely are very restrained when it comes to suggesting using force. I guess they've seen what 'force' means.

Great play using the word 'turd' there - took me back to sixth form that did.

[Jabba_TG12]

So, how would you deal with the issue of piracy on the high seas then, LT? Seriously?

[Load Toad]

OK - how did the heavy boots work at Beslan?

Not good.

So far some people like the idea of blowing up pirates.

OK - do you think the guys in the plastic boats with the RPG's and AK-47's.

Do you think they are the guys in charge of this?

If you do - lets blow them all up....and wait for the next lot.

If you don't - do you think the situation is simple?

[Wensleydale]

So... Are you saying "Shoot all the journos"? Because I'm with you if you are... A bit of the old "What the eye don't see... etc"... would work just fine in that part of the world...


Or we could trade them for the hostages. The rich media tycoons can afford the ransoms and journo gets his story on release. The only proviso would be that the pirates have to keep them for 10 years first.....:ok:

[alfred_the_great]

How do you deal with the piracy - easy:

1. ban the Spanish and French deep-sea fishermen who've destroyed the stocks in the Somali Basin to the point where the Somali fishermen had no other way of making money.

2. if you really cared enough, do some proper Comprehensive Approach type stuff on Somaliland, in order to create a little bit of stability and peace in the area. This would probably include annoying the majority of the countries neighbouring Somali.

3. in a very targeted way, go and blow up bits of the pirate camps. Make them realise that piracy is not in their interest. This message will only have credibility if 1 & 2 are followed through on. If they can't earn a living doing what they used to do, why should they stop being pirates? Unless you want to execute every black person on the high seas, in the Somali Basin, in a skiff, the cost/benefit analysis of being a pirate (in the absence of any other work) will always flop on the side of being a pirate.

4. let the shipping companies deal with any other residual piracy. If they want us to do something about it, then they follow our rules - not ignore them and scream bloody murder when one of their ships is taken. Having seen low free-board, slow speed ships take the shortest route from the Bab el-Mendeb to an East African port, in order to save a little bit of time (and thus money), I have little sympathy if they are taken.

[Jabba_TG12]

LT, you've just asked far more questions than you've answered. I can only assume that you havent got a solution yourself, you just like criticising those who think that they do.

At least Alfred The Great actually came up with something in a subsequent post. It might make uncomfortable reading for some, but at least it came up with something.

[Load Toad]

Oh I'm sorry I didn't realise asking and listening were pariahs. Interesting new rules on debate, learning and decision making you having going there.

How big is the area of sea that has to be patrolled as it is under risk from pirates?

How many pirate attacks last year?

How many vessels are potential targets?

How many (coordinated) resources are available to police & protect this area & number of targets?

How long is the coast from which pirate attacks can be launched?



Lets try with a bit of thinking instead of hoping the Russians come along and blow stuff up for us eh?

[CathayBrat]

How big is the area of sea that has to be patrolled as it is under risk from pirates?
Over 1 million sq miles, including areas of the red sea, down to the tanzanian coast, to nearly the coast of India

How many pirate attacks last year?

Too many

How many vessels are potential targets?

Unknown, as they will take on any vessel, from a sailing yacht to oil tankers, and as it is one of the main shipping choke points in the world, there are alot of targets

How many (coordinated) resources are available to police & protect this area & number of targets?
The NATO vessels, the Chinese, The Indian's, The Russians and a few others. They do not all co-ordinate with each other, as they all have different ROE's. About 20 main war ships (plus supply ships etc)

How long is the coast from which pirate attacks can be launched?

The coast of Somali is about 1300nm long. However the main pirate attacks come from the region known as Punt land. This is the middle bit, between the chaos of the south (mogadisu area), and Somaliland, which borders Djibouti. The south has its own problems, to big to worry about going ship hunting, and Somaliland is a very stable country, and are working hard to stamp out any problems in their area. So it drops down to about 500 nm to watch. But this can be narrowed down alot, as most bases are known.

Dont know any way to slove the problem, but I like alfred the greats plan, seems to make the most sense.

[Jabba_TG12]

But you're not just asking and listening, LT, you're just moaning and feigning some sort of moral superiority. You're denigrating the opinions of others without offering any alternative.

[Load Toad]

If the cap fits you wear it.

So - given we have an area too large to patrol, too few resources to patrol effectively with no coordination, a wide range of targets that sail individually & an 'enemy' made up of foot soldiers with little to lose who can launch attacks from even small vessels and whose bosses aren't joining in the actual capture of boats....

Then the 'blow them up' doesn't appear to work.

I agree with Alfred though I'd also have to ask if it is completely out of the question for logistics companies who can tell you where your box is within a container on a ship & who seem to be able to coordinate their rates fairly well to be able to coordinate their ships in some way? So that the protection resource has less of an area and less potential victims to look after. If countries can not coordinate protection then those countries might have to consider how they are going to arm ships that pass through the area & if it is not worth while putting some form of security on the ships? Isn't that their responsibility?

Now that seems naive and expensive - but how expensive is it to pay ransoms and have crew held captive and expensive ships under the control of criminals? This didn't start this week - it's being going on for years. We hear how airlines and air transportation have had to pay and suffer inconvenience to deal with risks - so what are shipping lines doing?

[aviate1138]

I would advise anyone sailing in the area to fly a Russian flag. I would also ask the Royal Navy why they can't give the Somali pirates a very big smack whenever they get the chance.
If 17th century pirating laws still apply then use them!

Human Rights? Worse thing ever devised IMHO. Simply a series of laws to suit the criminal and not the innocent. Thanks Cherie for your contribution to the "advancement" of civilisation. :rolleyes:

[Load Toad]

Human Rights? Worse thing ever devised IMHO. Simply a series of laws to suit the criminal and not the innocent. Thanks Cherie for your contribution to the "advancement" of civilisation.

That's a bit selective innit? Go have a read of a bit of Thomas Paine. The human rights most people object to are only the ones that they themselves take for granted and no longer value as familiarity had bred contempt.

[cazatou]

aviate 1138

The members of the National Socialist Workers Party in Germany adopted the sort of approach that you recommend. My late Father would not talk about the discoveries made when they liberated places like Bergen Belsen.

Just how many "errors of judgement", misidentifications, false witness statements or dislike of a persons colour do you think it is acceptable to turn into "Gospel Truth" as to a persons guilt or innocence?

[500N]

Load Toad
What ever happened to the "can do" attitude of the British / the typical military person / officer who seems to frequent this forum ?

I lost count of the negatives in your second last post.

[andyy]

LT - I think what you are suggesting in your 4th para is....a convoy system. With appropriate escort vessels & helos/ mpa.

Absolutely.

[aviate1138]

When someone stops a smash [massive axe] and grab [£40,000] raid on a jewellers, wrestles the grabber to the ground and hands him over when the police arrive and then gets bound over for two years for aggravated assault [or similar] while the thief is allowed to claim compensation for his damaged shoulder apparently the law favours the criminal and a citizen doing his duty is given a criminal charge! He was being threatened with a huge axe before he floored the crook but once again Human Rights favoured the criminal and not someone doing his best to help society.

I am only against those Human Rights which allow crooks to manipulate said rights to their own ends.

[cazatou]

aviate 1138

Let us have the FULL facts (not a selected abbreviation of the "facts") in the case you are apparently quoting so that we can make up our own minds.

Moreover, do we take it that you were actually in Court for the trial and heard all the witness statements first hand - or was it a conversation in the village Pub after a couple of Pints?

I only ask because I have not seen (or heard of) any media reports of such an occurrence - and being retired I have plenty of time to peruse the media.

In short, I find your assertions specious to say the least.

[jackx123]

russians send a clear message to terrorist, may it be somalia, chechnya, lebanon or in russia, liquidation is the only option

[Load Toad]

Can do with what?

If more countries aren't involved then it's merely a token gesture.

Apparently organization between countries and shipping lines is 'difficult' so it seems allowing it to go on is not a sufficient hit on risk to pursue alternatives. Apart from blowing people up and risking outcomes like happened at Beslan. But that's OK cos it ain't your kin that get it.

I guess I'll be accused of being a troll simply because I have a different view, I'm cool with that - I'm a troll then.

[taxydual]

Have a look at the last five days worth of piracy incidents.

http://www.icc-ccs.org/home/piracy-reporting-centre/live-piracy-report

Bear in mind, these reports are over just five days.

Looking at the footage of the Chandlers release recently, I was struck by two things:
1. The 'shanty town' appearance of the homes of the 'pirates'.
2. The quantity of 'brand new' 4x4 vehicles parked outside the homes.

I don't have an answer to what could be done to stop the piracy (well, I do, but it is non-PC for me to suggest it). To help, I will say, "When in Rome (pirate land), do what the Romans (pirates) do". I hope you get the drift? (or adrift?).

[Mechta]

I'm with Alfred the Great on this one. Unless we tackle the roots of the problem we are wasting our time. The ship owners and the Somalian 'Mr Bigs' in all know that its cheaper to pay the ransoms than risk having an RPG through the side of a tanker. Arming merchant ships is still likely to result in more death, injury and detruction to their crews and cargoes on them than the ship owners are willing to tolerate.

Given that the pirates have already tried to hijack a US navy vessel, they are obviously not the brightest candles on the birthday cake, and for America to throw them into a US jail for life is just going to cost the US taxpayers a lot of money, whilst Mr Big just recruits the next lot of poverty-stricken teenagers willing to try anything.

Capturing one or two of the Mr Bigs, so they can have the error of their ways pointed out to them, or taking them out with a UAV if there is enough evidence against them, together with making every effort to improve life for Joe Average in Somalia is the only way this will stop. Of course it isn't easy, otherwise it would already have been done.

[pulse1]

Some friends of mine are going on a cruise next week and one of the ports of call is Djibouti. Yemen was also on the schedule but that has been cancelled since the bomb scares from that region. I understand that Djibouti is quite a common port for cruise ships and I find that puzzling to say the least.

[Fareastdriver]

All the duty free traders in Aden moved to Djibouti when Khormaksar closed.

[Q-RTF-X]

Some friends of mine are going on a cruise next week and one of the ports of call is Djibouti. Yemen was also on the schedule but that has been cancelled since the bomb scares from that region. I understand that Djibouti is quite a common port for cruise ships and I find that puzzling to say the least.

Cruise ships bring people with dollars to spend while visiting (however short the visit). Common sense decrees don't mess with a regular income. Most likely it's safer from the ships operator perspective to schedule a visit which, in effect, will most likely grant some sort of 'protection' than chugging past the place. Just musing on my part.

[cazatou]

Fareastdriver

That one is showing your age - not that I am going to admit to a Tour at Sharjah!!

[Mechta]

I understand that Djibouti is quite a common port for cruise ships and I find that puzzling to say the least.

Maybe the pirates aren't equipped to deal with 2000+ pensioners in one go, or else they are worried that the relatives back home would rather pick up their inheritance than have their elderly parents back:E

[non0]

There are no ROEs ... kill them all and after put an X ... 5 X you became an Ace, 10 X you are pretty good Ace, 11 X you can send your application to Blackwater!

[pulse1]

Maybe the pirates aren't equipped to deal with 2000+ pensioners in one go

This particular ship only has 300 passengers I believe.

Cruise ships bring people with dollars to spend while visiting (however short the visit). Common sense decrees don't mess with a regular income.

Would this not suggest that the pirates are more than just independent crooks but are some sort of modern day Robin Hoods?

[Union Jack]

Given that the pirates have already tried to hijack a US navy vessel, they are obviously not the brightest candles on the birthday cake, and for America to throw them into a US jail for life is just going to cost the US taxpayers a lot of money ....

..... as proved here:

Piracy Convictions First in Nearly 200 Years (http://www.military.com/news/article/piracy-convictions-first-in-us-for-200-years.html?ESRC=navy-a.nl)

pending appeal of course.

Jack