Pilots are pushed too far on 7days

[The Zohan]

Tired pilots are pushed too far - Letters to Editor (http://www.7days.ae/storydetails.php?id=99884&title=Tired%20pilots%20are%20pushed%20too%20far)
:p

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[oceanpotion]

Good start....Get it out there guys!! Feed what is happening to the press. Not just 7 Days but to all the international press (the Canadian press would be a good start). We have had enough of being treated like rags... If our management will not allow us to dialogue with them in a civil manner and pay proper attention to our concerns, then we will only respond in a typical "human reaction" manner. Find someone else who will hopefully listen. It is starting to become a desperate cry. In such a repressive environment like EK and the lot, and the if you don't like it leave mentality. one has no choice to spill the beans if you do not like it but... Let it rip!!!:ok:

[skygod]

Its funny, I read in yesterdays newspaper, about the air india express that crashed in mangalore. The Indian DGCA published that its was un professional for the captain to sleep during the flight, and the captain ignored all the sofisticated equipment warning him to abort the landing. It also stated that multi millon dollar aeroplanes are equiped with safety equipment to assist the pilot in making descions...
Its sad the blamed the crew, and never stated anything with regard to flight duty time limitation, or what duty the crew had done in the past week. Im sure the were on minimum rest though out. THIS IS GRADUALLY BECOMING A WAY OF LIFE AMONGST AIRLINES IN THE GULF. REMEBER IF ITS LEGAL, IT DOESN'T MEAN ITS SAFE. seven days in a row can be very hectic...so for now until changes are made. flysafe and remain vigilant.. If the FAA publishes new rules regarding FDTL, then im sure the rest of the world will follow.

happy landings everyone
SKYGOD:ugh:

[Sciolistes]

Regardless of the other points, saying it is impossible to sleep during the day is BS. There is no reason why, generally (we all have bad days), a pilot shouldn't arrive sufficiently reseted for such a flight.

[sheikmyarse]

Reseted..? May be you need another nap.

[etihadceo]

No reason we should be rested???

Kids, wife, traffic noise, getting up at normal hours, and dont forget the call to pray 5 times a day. Oh and a life!

No reason at all my back side. :*:eek::mad::ugh:

[pool]

Hilarious, but useless. Just look at the answer of Sciolistes. He is the archetype of the ones who know better although they've never been there. Passengers think we're a lazy overpaid bunch until they fly for their annual stint to BKK, then they want a well rested, well trained and well paid guy up front so as to feel safe.
I once challenged a journo to follow me on a 13h flight, 9h time difference pairing, from the evening before to the evening after, staying awake with us (at the time this was allowed in the cockpit) and trying to rest. He actually did (officially) and later had to admit that it was very, very strenuous and his following article was not bad. But he forgot quickly, meeting some months later he said laughing ' ... we had a good time, hadn't we. You guys really have a good life ...'. He didn't remember that he needed three days off to recover from the lag and I was already on my way to another 'good time'!

Nothing will change but a smokin' hole, and even that will only last for a few months.
Brave new world.

[dustyprops]

I can only imagine who/what resides at the Indian DGCA, probably the same people in charge of organising the commonwealth games. So any comments that come out of there don't hold much water with me.

Secondly, Sciolistes you are either a total ****, or not a pilot.

An article a week would be a great start.

[springbok449]

Pool,

You make a good point re the dare you set the journo...

A good friend of mine was fed up having to listen to his Mrs moaning as to how he was paid for sitting there and doing nothing for hours and when he got to destination he just sat on the beach for a couple of days...
So he took her on a trip with him, when she got on the A/C he made her sit on the jumpseat instead of first...no drinking champers, no movies etc, just sit there through the night, when they got to destination of course she was shattered and didnt feel like sitting by the pool etc... same on the way home, it quickly dawned on her how tiring it can be...

Needles to say they are no longer together ;)

[BigGeordie]

As Sciolisties (isn't that a skin disease?) says, it is perfectly possible to be rested before a night flight. It is the second and third night flights followed by a 6am pick up that are the problem. You don't get fatigued from one flight, you just get tired. "Tired" isn't the problem, "fatigued" is the problem and it is the elephant in the room that both the regulators and airlines are trying to ignore.

Night flights will always be with us- it is just too expensive to have aircraft sitting on the ground for 8 hours out of every 24. The challenge for the industry is how to reconcile that with the fact that millions of years of evolution have not prepared humans to function at their best in the middle of the night. The Middle East airlines are a long way from doing that.

[Chewthecrude]

Well said BG!

A few years past we flew night flights as much the same as now however it's the fact we now don't get enough days off between night trips to recover. I am absolutely hanging.
With the increasingly (not decreasingly) poor roster planning that is going on on the airbus I can't see any joy coming our way for some time.
It's the poor man management that is going on that is causing our pain.

A 90 Boeing roster is not the same as a 90 classic airbus roster. With one ULR trip left and so many night turns on the bus it's hardly going to get better.

Nuff said.:ugh:

[fatbus]

Its not Middle East Airlines its Middle Night Airlines, we used to get 15 + days off/m and you could recover from the Night turns not anymore . the long term sickness is on the rise and the company only cares about money not the guy up front, when one goes into the ground they are going to say it was legal and if pilots are tired they should not be flying in the first place ( blame on the pilots) look at the Mangalore crash, wont be any different here

[FcU]

I hope that the grieving families of the passengers and crew turn their anger at Air India Express and the Indian GCAA into a lawsuit that will place the blame for this crash where it belongs...on the shoulders of AIE and the Indian GCAA for allowing this type of rostering to be "Legal"

Send a message to the industry that it is no longer acceptable to sacrifice safety on the altar of money. Maybe other companies and regulators will take notice and proactively make changes before it too has its lesson written in blood.

[alwayzinit]

I think we can agree that flying 90+ hours a month is quite possible, it's HOW those hours are made up that is the killer.

There has to be something wrong when your body thinks your should be "firing the morning gun" at 0200 rather than 1000! Without going into details :E it took the first 4 days of my leave before the gun would fire at the right time!!

It also appears that the rosterers actively roster into the 18-30 hrs rest which, as we all know from experience, is a nightmare for rest patterns. Why Why Why:ugh:

Why can't they offer westbound or eastbound roster options,it would reduce the time zone changes dramatically. The result would be less guys falling over sick/fatigued/knackered so a win win.

[Kapitanleutnant]

There most certainly is a reason why we don't use TOGA power on each takeoff..... because the engines would fail sooner.

So then why does EK essentially use it's pilots at "TOGA Power" each and every day.

I sadly think it's safe to say that one day, one of our crew is going to fail just like that engine will when used at full TOGA power all the time, and it will be disastrous!!

AAR just doesn't get it. Me thinks he is the single source for this problem at EK.

K

[777boyindubai]

Good post, alwayzinit. :ok:

[amberman]

Because of mis-management, we all end up for paying for this. Personally I believe this will never change and you either leave, live with it or change the roster yourself so as to survive. That's what I use my sick days for :ok:, this may not be right in some eyes but is the option that I have chosen to extend my life a little longer.

[Easy Ryder]

Sittingidly is bang on, i'd rather 3-5 nights in a row then the night flt 24hrs 'rest', take off in the morning. Cant rest at all with that stupid rostering.

At least with similar shift patterns rostered in a row my body clock can adjust. But im a single guy with no wife or kids....:\

[Desert Dawg]

Page 4 of the 7days:

"Air chiefs keeping eyes open for sleepy pilots"

"The UAE GCAA has warned that pilot fatigue is a serious threat to flight safety, but has not received any complaints from airmen about being over worked....... The GCAA said it took the issue very seriously and that there are strict rules on rest periods,......."

Hmmmm - no complaints received by UAE airmen regarding fatigue..????? If you guys are filling in ASR's and pressing 2..... Then it proves the GCAA have something to hide... no?

[pool]

"The UAE GCAA has warned that pilot fatigue is a serious threat to flight safety, but has not received any complaints from airmen about being over worked....... The GCAA said it took the issue very seriously and that there are strict rules on rest periods,......."

If one needs any more proof of the level of cynicism and corruption in this region, it will be hard to provide.
Either EK does not forward the ASRs, or the GCAA simply ignores that stuff. Anyway, this statement is nothing but a blunt, outrageous lie!
If I was a little less illiterate in IT matters I would send the last 6 weekly reports to 7days. Maybe some wizard soulmate can do that. The journos could then live up to their self proclaimed 'duty to unbiasedly report all relevant information'. But I guess the long arm of the lobby reaches even there and everything will be brushed under the same carpet as our ASRs.

[sunbird123]

The GCAA is working with the big airlines.
Most of the reports are not followed up on.
Bribes are commonly paid to eliminate the competition or create problems for them.This is standard practise in this part of the world.
The press is not free to publish any bad local news about the economy or ruling class.

[High 6]

It seems many aspects of our industry have made great technical advances in the last few decades, e.g TCAS, EGPWS, Predicted Wind Shear, etc... making aviation an extremely safe mode of mass transport. Yet very little has been done about upgrading the FTL schemes (CAP 371 and others) that were broadly based on machinery being flown around in the '60's like Super Constellations and the early jets.

I suspect that this is because the technical upgrades are a one time investment in dollar terms. However any recognition that flying today with the commercial pressures and ability to fly 24/7 in any weather conditions is demanding and requires reduction in certain duty times, increase in rest periods etc..... would have very long term associated financial costs due to more pilots required, with all that that implies. This goes against the mandate of many Airlines to keep costs at a minimum... so their solution is to keep the regulators in their pocket and have them believe that all is well. This is a global problem, but admittedly more pronounced in the sandpit.

Unfortunately, there will probably be more fatigue related fatalities until we pass the allowable "permissable death quota" before something is done.

I put the responsibility square on the shoulders of the regulators and the international bodies like ICAO for allowing these unacceptable practices to continue. They have sadly been bought out by the big airlines. If ICAO and co were to invest only half the time and money that they invest in the fuel saving/carbon offset programs to addressing this matter, there would be radical changes and a safer operation for all.

Fly Safe guys !!

[Instant Hooligan]

If you wish the GCAA to know about your ASR's then report directly to them

GCAA - Reporting Of Safety Incident (ROSI) (http://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/rosi/pages/home.aspx)


Having spoke to 2 inspectors recently they are desperate for details to act upon instead of the sanitised version they receive if at all.


This is the preferred method for all safety incidents for the GCAA, not company asr's.


Also of interest, was told by a gcaa inspector that EK will do nothing reference a flight duty unless 66% of flights over a 6 month period fill out a safety report.



While you're on the GCAA website you might as well check out the new CAAP14 under E-Publications and discover the new definition of a ULR flight. 16 hours for those that cant be ar$ed!

[Kapitanleutnant]

Wonder if it would be worth mentioning in the ASR that a copy of this ASR has ALSO been sent directly to the GCAA for reporting purposes?

K

[fatbus]

You could try the ROSI only and see the sh.t fly, that could be fun to watch

[Kapitanleutnant]

Not such a good idea.... That would indeed cause a sh*t storm, wouldn't it?

K

[Instant Hooligan]

Haha yes it would, but I'd like to see the memo EK sends out telling us not to report also to the GCAA, I bet that would go down well with the GCAA

[pool]

Where do our safety reports go then?

Wednesday 24 Nov, 2010

In 7DAYS, dated November 23, the General Civil Aviation Authority (GCAA) stated that ''pilot fatigue is a serious threat to air safety, but they have not received any complaints from airmen about being overworked''.
Surely there must be some mistake - the airline I fly for, based here in the UAE, averages about five Air Safety Reports on the issue of crew fatigue every week.
This is published data that legally has to be recorded by all airlines and one would hope, acted upon in the name of flight safety.
So what is going on? Is the company not showing these reports to the GCAA, or are the GCAA choosing not to act on them? The GCAA as airline industry regulator here has a duty to ensure UAE-based airlines operate safely, and audits companies here appropriately (one would hope).
Should we as pilots stop reporting fatigue issues, in the knowledge that neither the company nor the GCAA seems interested in doing anything about this problem?
Somehow, I feel the travelling public would not be too happy with that concept.
If the GCAA wants pilots to report safety matters directly to them via their Report Of Safety Incident (ROSI) system, then the airlines in the UAE need to ensure that their non-punitive, open door safety culture is exactly that.
Perhaps it is time for the major airlines to publicly state where they stand on the issue of fatigue and culture of safety reporting..
Name withheld
Dubai
Kudos to the colleague who wrote this to 7days. It has been published and will stir up things for the liars caught red handed.

My respect not only to go ahead, but to put it in such straightforward, factual, precise but unemotional way.

[helen-damnation]

Very second hand but I understand that when the FAA came to visit, they reported that they have had a number of pilots contact them directly regarding the fatigue issues.
Apparently, the GCAA have had...... none.

Not entirely surprising, but until they have the info, they can't act on it.

[Silky]

Just get some BOFFIN to set up a publicly viewed site for all to see and then re post!:ok:

[Wordsworth]

Seasons greetings,

As the previous post says "Talking of not being in the spirit of the law". I was looking at the EK rosters trying to work out a swap and I see a 777 CA with 2 days in CRM/SEP then straight of to JFK.

I had thought we needed 2 days free of duty before a ULR,as well as being acclimatised (which I guess the CA is).

Couldnt see any requirement for rest before(only after) a ULR just the requirment to be acclimitised in the OM-A

Any thoughts?Not sure Id like this pattern!!

Over and out

[fatbus]

dont have the book in front of me but does it say days free of duty or nights free of duty.

[Profit Shear]

A bit off the subject, but after all the recent rumours re the end of factoring.....does anybody know what's actually happened? Has it, or is it going to be ditched?