Helicopter charter

[PicMas]

Evening Gents,

I have ventured out of my safety zone, the bizjet forum just south of here, to see if I can find answers to some questions regarding chartering a helicopter.

To make a long story longer...
I am currently researching possibilities for a project scheduled for May or June of 2011. For this I need some information about technical issues and pricing.
I have put my scope on a Bell 206, without really knowing too much about helicopters at all.

I need transportation for 2 persons, possibility to either open or remove door or window for photographing - is this possible? I am a seasoned photographer, but only from fixed wing aircrafts. Using handheld equipment.

What is the REALISTIC time aloft for a Bell 206? a ballpark figure will do.
It will be most convenient (read cheap) to charter from an operator in Northern Scotland, Aberdeen, Inverness due to proximity to my target locations etc. Any recommendations who to talk to?

What is the going hourly rate wet charter for a Bell 206? or similar helicopter.

Am I correct that the Bell 206 is single pilot ie. possible to sit in the right seat to facilitate communication with the pilot?

Should I even consider an R44 when substantial overwaterflying is part of the project?

Your kind help in answering the above is highly appreciated.

Best regards,

PicMas

[PicMas]

...wait... it should have read "sit in the left seat"

[EESDL]

welcome to world of rotary - may I suggest you contact the British Helicopter Association through their website - section on charter.
Charter :: British Helicopter Association (http://www.britishhelicopterassociation.org/charter.aspx)

web site will also provide details of suitably located BHA member who could advise further.

[topendtorque]

there's actually quite a few talanted ladies on this show as well. I have an idea for you, i'll send you a PM's
cheers tet

[McHover]

PicMas, my strong recommendation if you are in the north of Scotland is to talk to Dave Brown at PDG Helicopters in Inverness. Very professional organisation with significant experience in aerial filming and photography.

- PDG Helicopters - Helicopter Charter, Lifting, Filming and Surveying, Passenger Transport and Scenic Tours (http://www.pdg-helicopters.co.uk/)
+44 (0)1667 462740

Mc H

[misterbonkers]

I'll second what McH says.

You'll get what you pay for.

[HelipadR22]

PDG are on the TV at the moment doing the air support for "Drop Zone". Lovely looking Helicopter :)

[PicMas]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Thank you very much for the information provided, all very helpful.

MAS

[Pandalet]

Out of curiosity, why are you set on a 206 and not a R44?

The overwater safety (assuming both are fitted with floats, etc) is probably far more dependant on the pilot than the aircraft, and assuming a suitable competent pilot, about the same for either. Endurance is usually of the order of 3-ish hours for small helicopters, assuming you have the weight allowance to fill the tanks. R44s are usually cheaper than 206s.

R44 speed is slightly higher than 206 (so you get where you're going faster), but there's not much in it. You can remove doors from a R44, I assume you can from a 206 too.

I'd certainly get quotes for both, see how they compare.

[902Jon]

Don't forget - with doors off VNE (speed) reduces.

e.g. Bell 206:-
With rear doors off down to 87 knots

With front doors off 69 knots.

This will significantly reduce your range if you are going location to location.

Better to use opening window with handheld gear.

If, as you say, substantial overwater flying is involved, you will need either a float equipped aircraft, or if you are away from engine-off distance from land, a twin-enginned helicopter - significant price increase.

[PicMas]

To clarify a bit.

The overwater flying portion is to and from the location. Once there it will all be over land/within gliding distance.

The trip overwater is about 240NM (about 200 over water) which will give an estimated flight time of around 2hrs each way.

The R44 is definitely a viable option, never knew they existed with floats. Like I initially wrote, I am completely unfamiliar with helicopters, so no particular reason for locking the focus on a B206.

Could the ferry flight be completed with the doors in place and the remove them once on location? Can it be done with use of simple tools or is an engineer required?

[902Jon]

You are into serious distance over water with 200 nm. You will need a twin with floats, a liferaft, probably immersion suits for passengers etc.

Also your destination will need fuel as you are unlikely to have a helicopter with 4 hours transit fuel + task fuel + reserves.

You will need to discuss the whole task in a very detailed way to an operator as this will be quite complicated. I would recommend speaking to PDG in Inverness as they will be able to give you a ballpark figure for you to start budgeting on. This will not be cheap though.

[PicMas]

I did have a very pleasant conversation with PDG, that cleared things up a bit. Seems a twin engine helicopter will be required which, in return, will make the project prohibitively expensive.
Fuel is available at the destination, its the distance overwater that blocks the use of a (for this project) reasonably priced helicopter.

Looks like I will be rambling my way across in a C182 sweating in survival suit and carrying a raft.
Helicopter would have been perfect, but is not an option.

I thank you for your kind input, it is truly appreciated, though it has been potentially expensive - now I REALLY want a PPL(H)

Best regards,

MAS

[Brilliant Stuff]

Couldn't the helicopter fly the water bit on his own and then pic the pax up at destination?

[Nubian]

Highly amusing reading!

Too bad you need to use a Single-stuckwing, instead of a helicopter due to the regs.
I know of instances where single-Squirrels have been doing aerial photos of off-shore installations in the north-sea.

Now, how come would it be legal in a C-182 by the way?

Maybe the offshore boys will be happy to offer you a good deal on a 332 or S-92, as it might meet the regs. :E

[John R81]

Or......

You could seek out a willing private owner of a floated helicopter and talk them into doing this as a private flight (cost sharing only allowed, you can't pay the full rate).

Imersion suit and raft still a good idea
Floated R44, EC120, Jet Ranger (if fuel available at the destination) possible

Fly there doors on - in the warm. Refuel, take the doors off and fly the picture sortie. Land and refuel, refit the doors and return.

Simples!:ok:

(If you can find a willing owner)

[902Jon]

You could seek out a willing private owner of a floated helicopter and talk them into doing this as a private flight

It is exactly this sort of mentality that causes AOC operations to struggle. People spend good money gaining & maintaining an AOC, likewise pilots who gain their CPL/ATPL. Low level Permissions from the CAA to make this legal are also required. Why would any PPL owner want to 'cost share' for a commercial photographic shoot?

It is also the reason that accidents happen. PPL's are by definition not qualified to the same level. Photography involves low/slow or hovering at levels inside the avoid curve. If there was an accident, do you think that the insurance would cover anything, knowing that this was in essence a commercial flight? Personal injury claims, 3rd party claims, aircraft damage claims?

[John Eacott]

902Jon

Whilst I share the sentiments (as an AOC holder) there is nothing to say that the private owner may not be a CPL or an ATPL holder, and quite capable of flying the sortie.

But the concept of rejecting a single engine helicopter for an extended overwater flight yet proposing a single engine fixed wing appears quite bizarre to me. Do the UK Regs really allow that?

[902Jon]

OK John - I agree that a CPL/ATPL owner could do this. Yet again though, why would they on a cost share basis? If they owned & operate the aircraft it is usually because they they have an AOC for commercial operations. Also, with respect, I suspect you probably don't realise how expensive AOC's are in EASA/CAA land in comparison to CASA nowadays. The Belgrano doesn't fund itself.

[ShyTorque]

I too ask Why would a CPL/ATPL(H) holder want to do a job like this (and I mean job), on a "cost sharing" basis?

He is going to "pay his share" of the costs of a float equipped aircraft and safety equipment hire, for the benefit of someone he has never met before? I doubt it.

I also have a good idea what the insurance company would say about it.

[John R81]

I should learn my lesson!

Stompin on a raw nerve produces an outpouring of S**t.

There is not going to be an AOC flight.
Never will be.
The rules (good and sensible rules that they are) mean the cost is prohibitive so NO AOC FLIGHT IS ON THE CARDS.

So any other way to achieve what the guy wants is not taking money out of your pocket / food from your mouth.

Why would a CPL (or a PPL) want to do this for only a part share in the cost? That would be for the fun and adventure of doing it. I did hint in my post that getting someone with deep pockets to part pay for this sortie could be the difficult part.

Suppose that he does find someone, and it was a PPL who offered......

Then what is your problem! Either the guy accepts the PPL in a single (mostly even deep pockets don't stretch to a twin, just an R44 or similar)with all the limitations which that brings or he does not like the limitations and the trip does not go ahead.

Limitations in this sense would include a legal flight profile and remaining within the competence of the pilot.

I don't see how you jumped to the conclusion that a PPL in a single would even try to fly the same profiles as a commercial operator in a twin - that would be Darwinism in action. And where did the idea come from that a PPL on a private flight would ignore the rules of the air? 500ft rule still applies or you (rightly!) should get busted. So either he accepts no low/slow/high hover opportunities and can make do with 60knt fly-by (for an R44) or he concludes that the trip ain't worth making.

The tirade above speaks about the emotional state of the authors, not my post.

[md 600 driver]

john

the equal share portion for the flight will be divided by 3 that would make it very expensive for the owner/pilot and dirt cheap for the photograper and his assistant

[John R81]

Thanks - I do understand the rules. 1/3 of the cost of the flight is his to carry.

[PicMas]

Good evening,
I just read the latest part of this thread. I can assure you, I was not out to get a "taxi noir" flight or bend any rules. I stated a desire for a helicopter for hire - with pilot, because this would fit my project extremely well. I have had a quote for a twin engine helicopter which, as I suspected, was to high to fit in the budget. The final outcome of the project will be so expensive, that it will not be realistic.
As for the C182, thats a private hire flown by your truly with me or an assistant opening the window and shooting photos. This is a private flight and I am free, apart from insurance issues, to fly whereever I want. People ferry these aircrafts across the Atlantic, this is perfectly legal.

Legally I could take off from Inverness in the C182 westbound, fly above 500' until clear of populated areas and fly 2' above the Atlantic until I ran out of fuel. Not a good idea, but possible and legal.

Is it a good idea to fly extended stretches over water in a single engine? In a helicopter... I don't have the first clue. It has now come to my attention that governing rules do not think so, at least not in a hired helicopter.
Privately in a single engine piston aircraft? Yes, as long as the engine keeps running. In my 2200hrs of SE time I have had one engine failure, directly maintenance related and in a generally poorly maintained aircraft.
Then is the question of "what-if". Before even posting this question I have thoroughly researched the market and found a supplier of survival/immersion suit and a raft in a softbag, suitable for carrying AND GETTING OUT of a SE aircraft. I have numerous times completed sea survival training, both in warm and calm pools and in the North Sea during winter.

I don't pretend to know it all and be beyond possibility of failure, that be engine, instrument or a simple pilot mistake. I do, however, find the chances of piloting the aircraft to a survivable ditching and getting out reasonable and the odds of applying this very remote.

Anyway, it all boils down to this. I thank you very much for the advise, definitely learned something about rotary and am strongly considering a PPL(H) - it just looks that fun.